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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
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    We're not discussing Dragonite here, or whether or not Lucario is a better user of Extreme Speed. I'm not sure how that's really relevant to the discussion at hand. No one is questioning Dragonite's ranking, as most people generally agree it's an A rank Pokemon. Please can people stop comparing Lucario to Pokemon in the A rank tier to make their arguments, as they're pretty irrelevant. Lucario's ranking shouldn't be affected by how good Dragonite is, it should be effected by how effective Lucario is in the current metagame.

    I'm agreeing with Kidogo, it's a B rank Pokemon.
  2. GOthee

    GOthee

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    H is being comapared to dragnoite becasue its usefull to comrap a pokemon to a higher rank one to see hsi eefectiveness compared to the other. I think is valid comparing him with DD but focusing on the topic if Lucario should be A- rank or not. I agree with DFa taht he should be A- rank, he can counter demolish most pokemon after Sd boost and not every team packs a Lucario counter because they usually pack counter for other pokes like Dragonite..(higher tier pokemon)
  3. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Lets not pretend that if Luke goes to +2, it's going to 6-0 every time, that's not how it works. First Luke has to find time to get to +2, which is pretty hard considering it's frail to the point where even walls are taking a nice chunk out of it. But it has to do it at a time where all of it's counters and checks are gone or worn down, and finding that exact time to set-up is difficult, if it even presents itself at all. You can't use it for resistances because it's too frail; the only thing it semi-checks is SD Scizor. It's a situational pokemon, too situational for A-Tier.
  4. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    lucario really has to do a bit of scouting and make sure some common checks take a lot of hazards damage before it can pull a clean sweep on a team. for example, landorus-t will need to be scouted to see if it's running 240 or 280 speed (the two common spreads), if you're running ice punch and it has 240 you're good but if either of those factors aren't in place you will have to whittle it down to around 50% before a +1 lucario (factoring intimidate ofc) will be able to kill with espeed if 280, cc if 240. although honestly since terrakion and scarftar are so common you should be running bullet punch right now, which is why lando-t is such a good check. also, this isn't necessarily common knowledge, but the standard rp landorus spread isn't ohkod after rocks by +2 luke espeed:

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (72.02 - 84.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    so you have to force landorus to take rocks damage twice before lucario can sweep, otherwise it will be stopped cold.

    i guess what i'm getting at here is that yes, lucario is one of the most powerful and threatening sweepers in the bw ou tier, but it takes a lot to actually prepare it for a clean sweep (and then there's the matter of setting it up, which is also tough because it's so frail). i would definitely stick with b+ rank on this guy...wouldn't call it too "situational" for a-rank, rather, its checks are too ubiquitous.
  5. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    It's not situational at all. Lucario has less hard counters than Keldeo, who resides in S. Keldeo requires support to even have a chance of getting past its counters. It's counters are nowhere near as ubiquitous as Keldeo's, and even Lucario's counters, like Jellicent for example, need to watch out for Lucario's coverage moves. While it requires a bit of scouting to use Lucario, it requires even more scouting to beat Lucario. It's versatile movepool means it can be unpredictable and very hard to beat. It's much harder to revenge than other A- rank Pokemon, as Salamence is easily revenged by Scarf Terrakion and Mamoswine. Gengar is destroyed by strong priority or scarfers, and Dragonite is killed by any scarfed Dragon or Mamoswine again. Also, the stealth rock argument is a joke. What do you want, for it to be immune to it? It takes the lowest possible damage from it. Only Pokes with Magic Guard are immune to Stealth Rock. It doesn't exactly have a crippling flaw like Volcarona for example, and its bulk is actually better than Breloom's. I just want to know how exactly it doesn't fit the definition for A rank:

    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently.

    This fits it better than the definition for B rank:

    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

    It can sweep through the majority of the metagame. To say it can't is false.
  6. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Extremespeed isn't enough to push Lucario into A rank range.
    I'm not sure why you're talking like it's the end-all, be-all priority attack in OU when it's a non-STAB, 80 BP move that is easily resisted.

    To illustrate how lacking Lucario's coverage is, let's say your opponent is running Ferrothorn+Gengar and your Lucario is already at +2.
    What are you going to do in this scenario?
    If you mispredict and your opponent has Gengar out as Lucario uses Close Combat, there's a 70% chance that Gengar OHKOs Lucario the next turn with Focus Blast.
    If you mispredict and use Ice Punch/Crunch when Ferrothorn is out, you're taking LO+Iron Barbs damage.

    And let's not even get started if the opponent has Terrakion, because Extremspeed won't even 2HKO and Crunch will give it a Justified boost, followed by Terrakion OHKOing Lucario the next turn and possibly the rest of your team afterwards.

    Lucario has way too many checks that can either cut its sweep short (without even attacking) or outright KO it. At best, Lucario as a lategame sweeper is unreliable as long as said (very common) checks are around.
    A reliable lategame sweeper shouldn't have a 50% chance to lose against several common pokemon.

    You need dedicated team support to eliminate all its checks (re: Terrakion, steel types, ghost types) before Lucario can even think to setup, which is why it fits the definition of B rank.
  7. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    Why is Alakazam in A-? It's power and speed warrant it to be in A alone, not to mention it being practically a failsafe revenge killer. It can plug gaps in your team easily. Say your team is weak to SD Scizor. Just slap a Focus Sash and HP Fire on Alakazam, and you're safe. The same can be said for HP Ice and certain 4x weak Pokemon. It's ability is one of the best in the game too, being able to endlessly come in and out and absorb burns and Toxics is very valuable. It's a great Pokemon.
  8. Laga

    Laga Thank u based danish pastry
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    Let us discuss Jirachi, because I actually find it the best S rank candidate in the A+ rank at the moment, and I shall try describing some of it's strengths and weaknesses.

    [​IMG]

    Discussable S-Rank: Jirachi.

    First, I would like to start by showing you guys the B/W smogon analysis overview of Jirachi as a pokemon and its overall strengths and weaknesses:
    Yes, Jirachi is powerful and few things can successfully stop it completely. Not only does it not require much or any support from teammates, it can also provide support through Wish and Thunder Wave. It also has the move U-turn to preserve offensive momentum. I think all that can be said for Jirachi as a whole has been said, so lets move deeper into it's different sets it can use.

    Here are a few notable sets that Jirachi uses well :]


    Set #1: ParaFlinch / Specially Defensive
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Calm Nature
    ~ Iron Head
    ~ Body Slam / Thunder / Thunder Wave
    ~ Wish
    ~ Protect / U-turn / Stealth Rock


    Pros and Cons of ParaFlinch / Specially Defensive Jirachi (open)
    Jirachi is mostly known for it's capabilities as an annoying paraflincher that makes people quit the game. This method consists of running Thunder Wave / Body Slam to paralyze the opponent, and then spamming Iron Head. This combination has a ~70% chance to immobilize the opponent, effectively giving you completely free damage. In the first slashed move slot, we have the Body Slam / Thunder / Thunder Wave slot. Body Slam is good for paralyzing ground types and getting a little bit damage whilst paralyzing (60% chance). Under rain, Thunder is usually the best choice, as it provides good coverage whilst maintaining the 60 percent paralysis chance. Thunder Wave is good if you want to paralyze things 100% of the time. With a bit of luck, you are effectively wearing down your opponent whilst healing 6% each turn without being touched. Running a specially defensive spread will also help wall a lot of pokemon like Lati@s, Gengar and at least check every special attacker there is (maybe not Specs Keldeo in rain :|) through paralyzing them. This set does not only work as a Specially defensive wall, an annoying piece of shit, but also provides massive Wish support (202 HP Wishes). My personal favorite Rachi set :^D The cons of this set are of course that 1) EQ frickin hurts, 2) Other physical attacks hurt too and 3) Defensive Ground types wall the shit out of it.



    Set #2: Sub+CM

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
    Timid Nature
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Thunder / Thunderbolt
    ~ Psyshock / Flash Cannon / Water Pulse


    Pros and Cons of Sub+CM Jirachi (open)
    Sub+CM Jirachi is is used for sweeping rather than walling and supporting. This set works by far the best in rain, as it 1) allows Thunder to reach 100% accuracy 2) Removes the Fire weakness, therefore leaving it only weak to Ground and 3) Powers up the Water Pulse that you may or may not like to use. Substitute and Calm Mind work extremely well together, which is also why many other pokemon like to use it. If you Sub up on a status move or on a forced switch, you get to get up a free Calm Mind. This will allow you to take hits very well on both defensive stats, as this set runs some Defense EVs and Max HP. When you can set up a Substitute whilst the opponent fails to take out the bulky Substitute, it's basically good game. This all seems extremely handy, which it of course is, but there are a few Cons of this set. The thing is, this Jirachi doesn't naturally fit teams Synergy wise as SpD rachi. This is because it is a sweeper that doesn't really need support, neither does it support. Sure, it is very handy on balanced teams, but if you are going stall, use SpD rachi, and if you are using HyperOffense, use Superachi (next set).



    Set #3: Superachi

    Jirachi @ Life Orb
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Psychic / Flash Cannon
    ~ Grass Knot / Thunderbolt
    ~ Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground

    Pros and Cons of Superachi (open)
    Smogon tells this tale 10 times better than i ever will so here you go:

    This set, a mainstay from the fourth generation, is a full-out offensive Calm Mind sweeper. It only needs 1-2 boosts to sweep, which is a massive advantage over other Calm Mind sets, and has space for an extra coverage move. All that's needed is a few Pokemon out of the way and then Jirachi can sweep. Because of this, it can be run on practically any offensive team. This set has two variants: one with Psychic, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Fire, and one with Flash Cannon, Thunderbolt, and Hidden Power Ground. The first one boasts the hard-hitting Psychic to hit Fighting-types, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and a number of other threats hard, as well as the ability to break Gastrodon with Grass Knot. Grass Knot hits most other Water-types as well, including Jellicent, Slowbro, Gastrodon, and Starmie, as well as Tyranitar. Hidden Power Fire hits, naturally, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, and other Steel-types. The second variant boasts the great neutral coverage of Flash Cannon and the ability to OHKO Heatran. Thunderbolt retains coverage on Jellicent, Slowbro, Starmie, Skarmory, and Forretress. Picking which variant to use is determined on what support you're willing to provide.


    Set #4: Choice Scarf

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    ~ Iron Head
    ~ Ice Punch
    ~ U-turn / Fire Punch
    ~ Trick / Healing Wish

    Pros and Cons of Scarfed Jirachi (open)
    Did you guys know that I am a lazy person? Have another Smogon Analysis :]

    This set is particularly good at revenge killing Dragon-types. Jirachi is much bulkier than the average Choice Scarf user and has numerous resistances, which allows it to switch into a number of attacks. This set's biggest flaw is its lack of power; base 100 Attack simply doesn't always cut it, so Jirachi is easily walled and set up on. Regardless of its lack of power, Jirachi is still an amazing Choice Scarf user. Iron Head's high flinch rate allows Jirachi to hax its way past numerous opponents, and it is very useful for picking off weakened foes. The first coverage move of choice is Ice Punch because it hits Celebi, Gliscor, Dragonite, and many others for super effective damage. The third slot is a choice between two options; U-turn allows Jirachi to scout to obtain better match-ups and Fire Punch hits Ferrothorn for good damage. The other choice on this set is which non-attacking move to use. Trick can cripple walls, most notably Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Chansey, Blissey, and bulky Water-types (such as Jellicent and Slowbro), and can mess up slower sweepers, such as offensive Trick Room Reuniclus. Crippling these Pokemon makes it easy for a teammate to set up. On the other hand, Healing Wish makes Jirachi an amazing supporter; once it has extended its usefulness, Jirachi can revitalize a crippled teammate, which gives this option tons of merit.


    Jirachi has a good ability, a good typing, versatile and good stats all across the board, and it is simply a monster in the OU metagame. I don't know if it really is S-Rank worthy, but I do believe so myself. This said, I wrote this so you guys would start debating about Jirachi, as it is a decent discussion. I shall leave you with a final quote from the smogon OU Jirachi Analysis :^D btw, oh look my 50th post lol :^D
  9. namehtmas

    namehtmas

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    Lucario wins if it runs Bullet Punch though. Lucario's moveset may be rather standard but it still has a way of dealing with most things. Since it's a late game sweeper, it's perfectly OK to expect teammates to help pick up what it can't cover. I'd probably say it's the best physical late game sweeper right now, which warrants A- because it can sometimes be difficult to set up and it's pretty reliant on teammates. However, it's the best at its job.
  10. superstar

    superstar

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    Sad to see Dragonite down in A-minus rank....remember when he was the best sweeper in the game in BW1?

    Anyways, I thought I'd chime in on Lucario. Saying Terrakion is a check is laughable, Lucario should be running CC/SD/ES/Bullet Punch except when your team has very specific needs, since Crunch is really only good for Jellicent and Slowbro, and Ice Punch only hits Gliscor and Landorus-T. I've found a good offensive core with Lucario is Band Tar + Gothetelle. The former can severely dent Jellicent and Celebi while the later easily traps and kills Landorus-T and Gliscor.

    With Stealth Rock up, and Lucario at +2, here are your options for beating Bullet Punch Lucario -- taking a hit and KOing back -- assuming they switch in on Swords Dance.

    In OU, it's Jellicent, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Conkeldurr, Fast Jirachi, Scarved Steel-types, Reuniclus, and Gyarados, not to mention all the stuff that can get knocked down to very low health and take you out, like Hippowdon, or UU mons like Chandelure, Slowbro, Victini, or Mew.

    You get my point when you see that a whole lotta stuff can either outspeed, take an ESpeed and KO back, or take a Close Combat and KO back. Definitely has more checks than Keldeo. Granted, most of these guys are taking 50% from your attack (not Jellicent though), but I'd say it's a fair trade on the opponent's part.

    tl;dr Lucario is fine in B+ rank, great end-game sweeper/wall breaker but stuff has to be weakened a ton for it to sweep, it's hindered by the common presence of Jellicent, Garchomp, and Landorus-T
  11. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I don't, because it never was. A- is fine for Dragonite.

    Stopped reading here.

    Either Crunch or Ice punch is mandatory over the extremely situational (and weak) Bullet Punch, else Lucario gets walled by most ghost and flying types.
    Bullet Punch is an option over Extremspeed, not over Crunch or Ice Punch.
  12. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    Everything in this comment is false. Dragonite was easily the most feared BW1 sweeper after the ban of Deoxys-S. There was a point in time when Dragonite was suspected and found to be not broken. There is little doubt that Dragonite and Terrakion were the most powerful sweepers in OU before BW2 came out.

    And what are you talking about? You didn't even read the rest of that guys post. If you had, you'd know that he actually agrees with Lucario in B+ rank. Anyway, no Lucario doesn't need Crunch or Ice Punch at all. Bullet Punch is great for sweeping offensive teams that pack things like Gengar, ScarfTar, or Terrakion. You should never use Bullet Punch over Extremespeed since it's weaker and hits fewer things. Lucario needs to pick its poison. Either Ground Types, Bulky Ghost/Psychics, or offensive threats. But any of the options is completely viable.
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  13. superstar

    superstar

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    You obviously didn't play BW1 then, Dragonite was easily the best setup sweeper in the game, especially back when Excadrill could spin for him. He's A- now, obviously.

    Bullet Punch: You beat Terrakion and Gengar and ScarfTar
    Ice Punch: You beat KINDA SLOW Gliscor and SLOW Landorus-T (and 252 HP Dragonite above 70%, I guess)
    Crunch: You beat Jellicent and Slowbro

    You can beat any set of these, you get to pick. I think Terrakion and Gengar are more valuable threats to hit than Jellicent or Gliscor based on usage, but that's just me. lol getting rid of Extremespeed, have you ever even tried Lucario out, most flying types are murdered by him.
  14. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    for the record i always run sd/cc/bp/espeed since ohkoing terrakion is a must (#3 in usage last i checked). never get rid of espeed that's plain stupid, without espeed lucario would just be another hitmonchan or whatever
  15. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Im surprised jirachi inst S-Rank already. Extremely versatile and capable of paralysing and flinching each of its counters to death or setup on them with calm mind, jirachi is an excellent pokemon in BW2. Its excellent bulk and type allow it to check several threats such as tornadus, alakazam, kyurem-b, latios among others. It can also setup with its sub calm set on defensive pokemons like ferrothorn, forretress and bulk waters. I definitely support it for S-Rank
  16. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I don't like jirachi (enough for s)

    It was better in torn t era
    It relies on hax which means 40%/30%/whatever you will get screwed (focus blast, people)
    Can't take boosted water attacks like a good special wall should
  17. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I think Azelf could make it to Low B-Rank, maybe even mid. He's an awesome SR lead with his amazing Speed and Taunt, allowing him to set up SR quickly while Taunting shit, hence preventing them from getting their own hazards up or setting up. Azelf also has Thunderbolt+Fire Blast to nail Xatu on the switch while hurting Ferrothorn and Forretress. Deoxys-D leaving is pretty big too, so Azelf has less competition in his role as a SR setter. He can also serve as a Dual Screens setter if you need those, and is good at that. His offensive stats are pretty awesome and he can also take on the role as a special attacker, and hits pretty hard in general. But anyways, I think Azelf is a good asset to offensive teams and probably deserves Low B-Rank.

    I'm torn on Jirachi, but leaning towards keeping Lucario in B. He's kinda disappointing without Espeed and is frail as hell, but he's still pretty damn deadly, making him suitable for Top B at least.

    Btw, a point I brought up earlier:

    So yeah, Scolipede for C-Rank.
  18. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    It's more stupid getting hard walled by Jellicent, Gliscor and Landorus-T, who have extremely different counters and are likely to be around even during lategame, when Lucario is, you know, supposed to set up.
    Lucario needs to cover at least one of them with either Crunch or Ice Punch.

    By saying that Lucario has to run Bullet Punch for Terrakion you're just confirming that it needs a significant amount of support not to get walled by some of the most common and sturdiest walls in OU.
  19. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I think Lucario offers enough reward to be considered above B-Rank. Priority spam is still viable because of the faster pace of the metagame, what with Terrakion and Gengar being more popular, and as for the three Luke counters you mentioned in Jellicent, Scor and Lando-T (Lando-I's lack of Intimidate could put it at risk of E-Speed), I immediately see that Kyurem-B wrecks their shit, and can lure Steels for Luke to seize its much talked-about "golden setup opportunity". I wouldn't really say Luke needs a ton of support, all he needs is for his checks/counters to be weakened and a setup opportunity (harder to do, yes) to clean up. This can be said for a majority of sweepers in general, but considering most of these are in A or S Rank anyway I don't really see why Lucario cannot join their ranks. Keep in mind that its priority is still useful outside of SD, keeping frailer threats at bay.
  20. Laga

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    I definately do not agree with you when you say that it "relies on hax". You wont "get screwed" 30 percent of the time, as Jirachi has very good natural bulk with the usual max HP. Also, this entire post is only focusing on a single set, which makes your angle a pretty narrow perception of the pokemon, considering the fact that Jirachi can run many different sets effectively. With the amount of versatility Jirachi can bestow to many different types of teams, focusing on a single set just isn't gonna cut it :|
  21. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Jirachi has:
    a) A great movepool
    b) Versatility
    c) A great typing with few weaknesses(two, who can be easily countered)
    d) Balanced Stats
    Which other mons fit that kind of role?Metagross(my fav) who finds it hard sweeping in the speed-based meta, Haxorus(always underrated but that's seperate) amongst a select list of few mons.
    Jirachi deserves S-rank because it poses both a defensive threat as well as an offensive threat to opposing teams while carrying versatility that lets it run surprise sets.

    People might rant at me for this, but I'm nominating Terrakion for A+. Honestly, I find Terrakion one of the most overrated mons ever. Agreed, it's fast. Agreed it's got good coverage. But just because people are too lazy to look to the lower tiers to find counters, it shouldn't be S-rank.
    Can Terrakion honestly do that? It needs a counter to Ghost types who wall it to no end. It needs a counter to any Mach Punch user with decent attack. It needs a counter to any water/grass type that just happens to outspeed it or a water/grass type that has priority. It needs a counter to any Psychic type with decent bulk and resists to STABs.
    Come on guys, Terrakion can sweep but it needs a hell lot of team support.
  22. Halcyon.

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    Nope, Banded Terrakion can 2HKO all of OU except for Landorus-T. the minimum amount of damage Banded Terrakion can deal is 37.38 - 44.14% to Cresselia. That's still a huge chunk of health. And aside from Landorus-T, most of Terrakion's counters are huge liabilities in the rest of the OU metagame. Golurk's one niche is countering Terrakion, and outside of that it's dead weight. Also, this is only one set. Terrakion can also run a lead Stealth Rock set, a Scarf set, Sub Salac set, a Double Dance set, and an All-Out Attacker set in addition to Band. It's funny how easily Terrakion can rip through its counters consdering things like Landorus-T don't have any reliable recovery and can't take more than two Stone Edges. He's definitely worthy of S rank.
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  23. superstar

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    I'm still not sold on Scolipede. I'd rather use Custap Forretress for the Spikes/TSpikes role, since I think it does so more reliably. The being said, I do think it has a niche as a fast Spiker that can beat taunters Forry loses to, so I'd be fine putting it in C-Rank

    I'm really torn on Terrakion. It doesn't have a single spammable STAB like Keldeo does, so it is hard to argue its choice sets are S-Rank since they rely on 50-50 SE/CC predictions a lot. (I don't see any Choiced Terrakions ever). It's SR lead set is very good, but not really enough to make it S-Rank. SubSalac is solid, but priority users can be tough to take out.

    However, Ghost-types walling it? Jellicent and Gengar sure don't do that. Conkeldurr, Breloom, and Scizor are on a lot of teams, but they sure as hell can't switch into Terrakion. Most water and grass types don't like taking a Stone Edge (Celebi and Gyarados) or Close Combat (everything else) either. Finally, the two most viable Psychic types, Celebi and Alakazam, take a ton from Stone Edge or even Close Combat. Golurk and Claydol are essentially inviable, and are dead weight when your opponent lacks a Terrakion.

    I don't think Terrakion is as good as Keldeo, Landorus, or Politoed, but I think it's definitely a cut above the Latis, Garchomp, etc. I think S-Rank is a good place for it.
  24. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    You are understimating CombatEdge coverage backed by 129 Attack. You 2HKO (at worst) all but one Pokemon in OU. Period. There are 6 Pokemon who are not 2HKOd by Choice Band Terrakion, and the only one in OU relies on Intimidate to sponge the hit.

    Golurk, Nidoqueen, and Tangrowth have no business being in OU outside of stuffing Terrakion. Cresselia is slightly more excusable, but reaching into RU (or BL2) to find a counter to one Pokemon is only evidence of how insanely powerful he is. Slowbro has a niche AS A PHYSICAL FIGHTING-TYPE COUNTER. That is literally what Slowbro does and it's like asking why Latios is OU when SpDef Jirachi takes paltry amounts from even Specs Draco Meteor. Landorus-T is self-explanatory, I'm not spending any more time on it.

    Ghosts wall Terrakion? You realize Golurk is the only Ghost outside of Ubers who is not 2HKOd by Choice Band Stone Edge, right? Because PDef Jellicent is 2HKOd by Choice Band Stone Edge. SpDef Jellicent is OHKOd after Rocks and a little prior damage. Jellicent can stomach ONE Stone Edge and try to cripple with Will-O-Wisp or Scald. If either doesn't take (and Stone Edge doesn't miss, but Stone Edge has a better chance to hit than Will-O-Wisp or Scald burning), then your "wall" was just crushed. Weakness to Mach Punch/Bullet Punch and weakness to all the boosted Water attacks is keeping Terrakion out of Ubers, not reason to drop him from S. Terrakion IS the team support. Need Dragonite to sweep but Skarmory won't go away? Stone Edge 2HKOs. SpDef Jirachi got your Latios feeling down? Close Combat 2HKOs. Landorus-T preventing Lucario from sweeping? Oh, that's cool, Close Combat and Stone Edge have such incredible synergy that the last two slots are free, so Terrakion's got Hidden Power Ice that 2HKOs after Rocks with a Naive nature.
  25. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    I think Terrak is better than Keldeo. I think Keldeo should be A+ Rank. It's counters are just too common, rendering it dead weight too much of the time. It basically needs Pursuit support to pull off a sweep most of the time. It's STABs aren't great and it gets walled by Celebi, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Toxicroak and Dragonite (maybe more). It can use Hidden Powers to get past certain threats, but it will still be invariably walled by something. I find it far too easy to counter to warrant S Rank.

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