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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Exception of Dragonite? Weavile is WAY better vs Drago because of Ice Punch that OHKOes even with Multiscale.
    Couple of Calcs to support Weavile to B+:
    1) Ferrothorn
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 179-213 (50.85 - 60.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    2) Heatran:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (95.04 - 111.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    3)Tyranitar:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 437-515 (108.16 - 127.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    4) Breloom:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 361-429 (137.78 - 163.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    5) Latios:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 361-429 (119.93 - 142.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Out of the top ten mons in terms of usage Weavile outspeeds and beats Ferro, Dragonite, Heatran, Ttar, Breloom and Latios: a majority of the most used mons in the Top Ten(http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3482967)
    It is for this reason only that Weavile should be B+

    Roserade for C-Rank
    To qualify as a good sweeper, I believe that the following are certain qualities necessary in the current metagame:
    a) High speed OR good priority: With Roserade, while 90 base speed isn't bad, most of OU outspeeds it and Roserade has no form of priority to beat mons that are naturally faster than it
    b) Good coverage: While the grass type is good as coverage, poison just sucks as an offensive typing. And together combined, looking at the LARGE NUMBERS of Dragon and Steel types, Roserade can't offer this
    c) High attacking stats: Roserade does qualify here: 125 SpA is quite high
    d) Ability to tank a hit: Most sweepers can tank EITHER special OR physical hits if not both. Roserade can't do either in OU. With 60/55 for physical, anything neutral does MASSIVE damage. More importantly though, a lot of the special attackers in OU happen to be Psychic types like Latios, Starmie and Alakazam which makes things bad because even if 105 SpD is good, those mons will still OHKO.
  2. Halcyon.

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    Two quick things: 1. You shouldn't be running Ice Punch on Weavile, since it was only ever really useful against Tornadus-T, which is no longer a threat. Night Slash / Ice Shard / Low Kick / Pursuit is the best set by far, since it allows you to handle Psychic types better, and the only thing Ice Punch hits that Night Slash doesn't is full health D-nite, which doesn't often happen thanks to SR. 2. Roserade isn't a sweeper, it's a slightly offensive Spiker/specially oriented Spiking Wall, so trying to categorize it as a spinner is useless. That being said, I totally support it being in C rank, since it's niche is very small, and though it is good at it, it's hard to be a Special Spiker in a tier where Lati@s run rampant.

    Keep Weavile B-
    Lower Roserade to C
    Jaiho likes this.
  3. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I don't really watch this thread, but I decided to take a look and some of the placements seem seriously flawed.

    Tyranitar's placement seems off. TTar's ability to be incredibly powerful on its own thanks to its equivalent 656 BST, as well as the overall simple utility of sand really should net it the same position as Politoed. Its ability take every other weather starter head-on (depending on set, obviously) and trap with Pursuit gives it an edge that should put it in S tier.

    Also, what the hell is Kyurem-B doing in A+ when Dragonite is in A-? If anything, those two positions should be switched. Despite Kyurem's raw power, Dragonite is easily the best Physical Dragon in OU thanks to Multiscale. Lum DDNite with spinner support can be incredibly difficult to take down, while Kyurem-B struggles to survive due to its terrible typing.

    I'm also going to argue that Gothitelle, despite its ability to Trap, is still so much of a wimp in this metagame. It's easily not as good as anything else in B+ tier (not even Dugtrio). It can't set up CM on anything. It can't kill anything before it gets killed except for some cases like specially frail walls like Skarmory and Forretress (who both get mauled by Magnezone anyways). The B tier seems more home to stuff that have great flaws that are offeset by great abilities.

    I'll add one more to the list. Reuniclus might be falling off the face of the earth in OU usage, but it's not because it's bad. It faces fierce competition for team slots with other Psychics (Psychic is NOT a type you want to stack too much of) that dominate many niches of the metagame. Reuniclus is quite easily one of the best late game sweepers in the entire game, and something that turns games into free wins where anything else would be unable to thanks to Trick Room. It deserves a B+ position.
  4. Meru

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    I can't see Weavile moving up higher than it is just because all of you are failing to mention how prediction reliant it is. Pursuit trapping works with CBtar and CB Scizor because they can't be LO stalled. However, I've been in numerous positions where I've been able to Recover stall LO Pursuit damage and predict the incoming Night Slash to switch out.

    I know prediction goes both ways, but unlike CB Scizor and CBtar, which can't be Recover stalled by Latias (aka Latias has to switch out), Weavile needs prediction. This isn't just Latias, but Starmie too.

    Keep Weavile in B-.
  5. Hemp Man

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    Breloom would just Mach Punch Weavile anyway.
  6. RabidChipmunk

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    On Tyranitar: The problem with Tyranitar is that sand really isn't that great of support; rather, many Pokemon on Tyranitar's team simply have to put up with it because they appreciate his ability to Pursuit annoying Pokemon. The occasional Sand Force Landorus and Sand Rush Stoutland like sand, but that's it. Compared to the multitude of Pokemon that benefit from Politoed's rain, the two just don't even compare.

    On Dragonite: Is it just me, or does Dragonite suck? Okay, "suck" is a harsh word, but he's certainly not worth all the hullabaloo. Yes, his attack is nice and his bulk is nice, but he's frustratingly slow and his bulk, and Multiscale itself, is seriously compromised by his SR weakness. And don't just say "lol rapid spin," spinning in OU is a difficult task at best considering the offensive nature of the metagame and the poor quality of many spinners (Tentacruel and Starmie are cool though). A- is fine.
  7. victinivcreate1

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    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 198-234 (75.57 - 89.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    Or after 4 switches of SR, or oen switch into 3 layers of spikes Breloom is KOed by the shards of ice.

    Breloom is slower than Weavile so Ice Shard would hit first. Sorry, Breloom is likely to lose against Weavile
  8. Asek

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    Weavile is a really bad answer to any fully offensive Dragonite because assuming Dragonite is 252 Attack Adamant nature like it should be, +1 Extremespeed does 72.31 - 85.12% to a 32HP Weavile. Remeber that E Speed has prio over Ice shard and you can see that at least Mamoswine can revenge a Multiscale broken Dragonite, something Weavile can't do (once again assuming the above conditions). I don't really see Weavile going up to B+ considering its really niche and is only good for a very small amount of teams
  9. Halcyon.

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    I wouldn't say it's "likely", especially since Breloom resists Rocks and can switch in multiple times, whereas Weavile can only switch in four times MAXIMUM with Rocks on the field. The most likely outcome, is, in fact, Breloom winning, since Weavile will be reluctant to switch out after Mach Punch. And, since Weavile can't OHKO with Ice Shard, Breloom can afford to just Spore, so even if you switch out instead of using Ice Shard, something will be essentially taken out with Spore.
    Jaiho likes this.
  10. ciaranroy

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    I disagree strongly on the first point. Kyurem-B should rarely be used as a primarily physical dragon. It is by far and way the best mixed sweeper in OU. Even if it is outclassed somewhat physically by Garchomp and Dragonite, neither have as much capability to go mixed as Kyurem-B. Factor in Kyurem-B's wall worthy bulk and it becomes near impossible to take down, especially behind a sub. I do agree Dragonite should be A at least, but Kyurem-B more than deserves its A+.

    I agree with Gothitelle. It's just weak as shit. Anything that needs to boost as soon as it traps something just doesn't seem worth using. I can't really see any advantages it might have over Magnezone, Dugtrio or Wobbuffet. It's slow and weak, and it is fairly bulky, but its not switching into Terrakions Stone Edges or Keldeo's Hydro Pumps any time soon. Not to mention the less than stellar typing.
  11. SmashBrosBrawl

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    The deal with gothitelle is, its a team specific pokemon. The moves, stat spread and nature for your gothitelle depends on what your team needs. Need to kill steel types? HP fire. Need to kill fighting types? Psyshock. Need to kill water types? Thunderbolt. Need to kill ground types? HP ice. Having trouble with celebi? Signal beam. And so on. The ev spread can be changed to either a bulkier one to better deal with stuff that outspeed you regardless like scarf terrakion or to a faster one to outspeed some walls like celebi. Gothitelle is not a pokémon you can just throw in a team. It needs to be used to deal with specific threats. Its really niche but the same can be said about almost everything in B-Rank. Keep it there.
  12. Sturdynips

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    Having used Weavile a lot, i can say without a doubt that although it has a fantastic niche as a revenge killer and trapper, nearly every well constructed team has a solid counter to it. Scizor and Keldeo are extremely common, and can switch into any attack Weavile dishes out, and u-turn out for momentum in the case of scizor or fire off insanely strong STABs in Keldeo's case. Used correctly, weavile is excellent in its role and others have already listed the amount of pokemon it beats 1v1. SR weakness and common counters mean that it should stay in B-
  13. DoABarrelRoll

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    Weavile should be B rank, maybe even B+. Stop saying Mamoswine outclasses it, because it's not true. Sure Mamo and Weavile both have Ice Shard, and Mamo might have higher attack and earthquake, but it doesn't have Pursuit and Low Kick. Mamo can't beat Terrakion, Starmie, Gengar, Celebi or Jellicent. Pretty much all of Weavile's counters beat Mamo too(Scizor - Bullet Punch, Keldeo, Conkeldurr - Mach Punch, Volcarona(which isn't even a counter to weavile), all bulky waters, 100% Breloom who can take an Ice Shard).
    Weavile is one of the most anti-metagame Pokemon and is really underrated.
  14. DarkBlazeR

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    Kyurem-B is definitely A+ material. It's perhaps the most difficult thing for stall to deal with right now, whether its simply rampaging through everything with CB Outrage or using its impressive mixed capabilities to break down the common stall cores. I find myself having to use weird shit like Scarf Jirachi and even Scizor in order to make viable stall teams these days. However all of its flaws (vulnerability to priority, average Speed, SR weakness etc) keep it out of S rank.
  15. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I agree, Weavile is REALLY underrated.
    Firstly, Weavile's speed makes it much better as a sweeper than Mamoswine
    Weavile's Dark STAB also means it can pursuit trap a lot of stuff
    Lastly, Weavile has SD, meaning it can sweep unprepared teams post SD.
    This is why it should be B+
  16. scorpdestroyer

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    No, I do not think Weavile is that good of a sweeper like you say

    Firstly, Weavile is extremely frail and that cannot be overstated. Almost any form of priority will bring it to extremely low HP. The fact that it's weak to every form of entry hazard, uses Life Orb and with Sand's prevalence, means that Weavile is worn down far too easily, especially when so many things threaten and forces it to switch if it predicts wrongly. Weavile suffering from minor 4MSS exacerbates this -- it needs to run Pursuit and Ice Shard for its niche, if it doesn't run Night Slash its walled of the opponent doesn't switch, if it doesn't run Brick Break then Steels screw it up and if it doesn't run Swords Dance its power isn't enough. Its attack stat is good but it misses out on OHKOs most of the time. Weavile's low bulk essentially means KO or be KOd. This forces it to switch out more often on anything that walls it, or is bulky enough to take hits. It can't even run choice band sets effectively as it will be played around too easily, and it can't set up Swords Dance effectively because it will be hard pressed to find time to set up since powerful resisted hits still take a chunk off it. Finally, the large amount of priority in the metagame -- look at Dragonite, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Scizor, etc. -- means that Weavile will often be killed before it does its job.

    What I meant was that as an Ice Shard revenger, its outclassed by Mamo and as a Pursuit trapper is outclassed by Scizor and Ttar, all of which can survive a hit and retaliate. Weavile is like a jack of two trades but master of none kind of guy.
  17. DarkBlazeR

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    Weavile is good if you need something that can both revenge kill Dragons and trap Psychics. It is outclassed in each of those individual roles.
  18. ElectivireRocks

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    Higher speed makes it a better Pursuit trapper than either Tyranitar or Scizor.
    If anything it's those two who need to worry about surviving a hit from Psychic/Ghost types if they decide to stay in.
    Weavile on the other hand doesn't have to worry abut fast threats like Gengar, Latios and Starmie because they're all slower.
  19. vyomov

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    Completely agree.
    A fine example of a mon that Weavile beats best is Latios: BOTH Pursuit Trapped as WELL as Revenge killing it.
  20. Kidogo

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    Whereas scarftar just...traps and revenge-kills it guaranteed and can easily live any attack, so it just pursuits and doesnt have to win the 50/50. Seriously guys, weavile has a niche, yes. But that doesn't actually mean it's viable. Ninjask has a niche as a speed boost passer (nothing comes close in efficiency), but it's still completely inviable in OU (except on absolute BP teams, which are very rare) for a multitude of reasons (SR, frailness, no offensive/defensive presence, horrible defensive typing). Yes, weavile can use both ice shard and pursuit--but not very well for either, its only niche is having access to BOTH of those which honestly isn't that big of a deal. If I have a DDnite problem I'll just use mamo, if I have a lati@s problem I'll use ttar. If I have both? Unlikely, but fine I'll use mamo and ttar, they work well together and I'd rather have two great mons filling slots than basically a wasted slot. Yes, weavile combines two roles into one but does nothing else, and performs those roles much worse than other things that can fill those slots.

    Higher speed does not make it a better pursuit-trapper than ttar, for example--weavile cannot OHKO anything with pursuit, so it must night slash/ice punch or predict the switch and pursuit, making it come down to a 50/50. If you predict wrong, they either get away or take a hit and KO weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.78 - 77.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Using latios for the moment, ttar simply does not have this problem--bandtar OHKOs (252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.37 - 104.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) and can easily take any kind of hit, while scarftar 2HKOs with pursuit and again lives any hit (while if you want to you can go for the crunch, which OHKOs--you don't need to though, since you live a hit).
    Tl;dr, weavile is outclassed as a pursuiter and an ice sharder. While it does combine these roles, it is inferior at both and is not worth the teamslot. Is weavile ever going to be viable on a competitive team? Yes, but very very rarely--you have to need both those roles in one slot and not mind a poke that is frail, SR-weak, has bad coverage, and is fairly weak overall. Sometimes it will be true, but not often. Belongs in B-.
  21. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-252 (81.22 - 96.55%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 224-266 (74.41 - 88.37%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 244-291 (93.12 - 111.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Weavile traps OHKOs Starmie and Latios most of the time whether they stay in or not with CB and it doesn't even need it for Gengar. Don't like being locked into Pursuit? Dark Gem is a perfectly viable option because if Weavile traps and OHKOs something with Pursuit without fail it has done its job. It can still OHKO 4x ice weak dragons with Ice Shard even without an item boost, assuming SR is up.

    Dark Gem also allows Weavile to bluff a CB set after it revenge killed something with Ice Shard, only to bait stuff like Jellicent and...

    252 Atk Dark Gem Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 414-488 (102.47 - 120.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Tyranitar and Scizor are completely ruined if they get burned from Starmie's Scald or if they get hit by HP Fire (in Scizor's case) or a water attack (in Tyranitar's case, unless it's at full health).
    Assuming Gengar doesn't have a Substitute up, Tyranitar risks a OHKO form Focus Blast and Scizor needs to gamble with a 50% chance of guessing right between BP or Pursuit, while Weavile simply clicks Pursuit and Gengar goes down regardless. Funny how you mention how Weavile's Pursuit is a 50% gamble but you fail to mention this when it comes to Scizor vs Gengar confrontations, something Weavile has absolutely no isssues with.

    Securing OHKOs against these 3 threats alone much more reliable than Scizor and Tyranitar can ever dream of gives Weavile an important niche. B+ is where it belongs.
  22. RabidChipmunk

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    The way you put it, that makes Weavile seem more C-Rank to me. Not that I would disagree with that; everything you said is true. Way back when, Weavile's best calling was on Deo-D Hyper Offense teams, where it could be partnered with Gengar in order to deal with troublesome rapid spinners (read: Starmie) and also revenging Tornadus-T. Back then, it was really good. But now Torn-T and Deo-D are gone, and I don't find Weavile still having that strong a niche anymore.
  23. alexwolf

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    Excuse me but did you just say that Weavile isn't viable? Here are some team types where Weavile works perfectly and no other Pokemon can do what it does:


    • Hazard stacking HO teams with Gengar. Gengar beats Forre and Tenta, and Weavile traps and beats the only spinner that Gengar can't, Starmie. It also provides with valuable priority for the likes of Thundurus-T, Landorus, and Salamence, while also being able to revenge kill a ton of unboosted offensive threats. Of 'course if you are using Weavile you should pack Scizor and Keldeo checks, but they won't be able to switch in more than once anyway due to entry hazards.

    • Rain teams that want Water resists and Keldeo checks such as Lati@s, Celebi, and Starmie eliminated. Scizor can't trap Baton Pass Celebi, is OHKOed by offensive Starmie, risks getting burned by defensive Starmie, and is less reliable than Weavile at taking down Lati@s as it has to take a hit first.

    So here you go, two common team archetypes in which Weavile is a very viable pick. If Pokemon such as Espeon and Haxorus are in B rank then Weavile is surely worth of this sub-rank as well, and is definitely one of the best Pokemon there.

    Not that i agree that Pokemon such as Haxorus, Espeon, Xatu, and Ditto should be there instead of B- or C+, but this is another discussion for another time.
  24. Meru

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    I think Dark Gem Weavile is actually a really good idea. It makes sure that it doesn't have to rely on 50/50 predictions, and gives it longevity without LO eating away at it. Shame Weavile is UU and thus can't be used for OU Next Best Things otherwise I'd totally suggest it.

    I still think it's B- though. It has horrible longevity with SR, Spikes, and Sandstorm constantly eating away at it. And unlike the other four SR+Spike weak pokemon in OU (Cloyster, Kyurem-B, Ninetales, and Volcarona), it doesn't have ridiculous firepower (or in Ninetales' case, a shit ton of team support) to make up for it.
  25. Kidogo

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    @alexwolf, you misinterpreted what I was saying. All I was saying is that having a niche doesn't automatically make you viable. Weavile happens to be somewhat viable on exactly the team archetypes you mentioned. My point was just that you can't simply say, nothing else does exactly what it does, therefore it should alwayds be considered (i.e. niche = viability). Read my tl;dr para, and I'm saying p much exactly what you stated--weavile is absolutely viable on teams that have the VERY SPECIFIC needs for the roles it can play (like trapping starmie AND revenging dragons, or trapping BP celebi on a rain team). These are rare enough and weavile is mediocre enough even in these situations that he's not hugely viable, but you're right, there are situations in which he is a good option which is why I'd rank him as high as B-. And honestly, I'd consider C, but for the kinds of examples alexwolf mentioned. B- seems fine to me.

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