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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. MX42

    MX42

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    With Lando and soon the Pony being suspected, we might want to add more pokes to s rank. Our S rank is small compared to other tiers.

    Possible canidates~
    Scizor- bar none the best user of priority. There is a reason he stayed at #1 for so long. He is without a doubt the best user of Swords Dance in the tier and a great user of Choice Band. Every team needs a Scizor check. He is just that good. His Fire weakness is dodged easily, as the only fire type in the tier he actually fears is Heatran, and he is OHKOed by Superpower. TO beat Scizor, you either need Fire Moves in Neutral weather, or rain boosted water moves. Even then, Roost helps seperate him from other key threats, it give him longevity to compliment his outstanding bulk and power.
    Ferrothorn- once Lando I and Keldeo leave, we are back in the BW1 era, only with Kyu-B, Lando-T, and Thun-t, and only one of those can be a nuisance to Ferro. Ferro is without a doubt the best supporter bar Politoed. Leech Seeds, Thunder Waves, and hazards are great for any team, as they help cripple threats to the metagame. He checks every dragon in the tier, and is why Outrage is not op and Kyurem B is OU. He is one of the two reasons HP Fire is so necessary on Latios and several special attackers. Ferro not only is the best supporter, but also one of, if not the, best wall in the entire tier.
    Garchomp-Even without hax, Chomp is still a fantastic pokemon. Without Keldeo to be a thorn in his side, Chomp can destroy the metagame far easier. Unlike the other physical dragons of the OU tier, comp is not weak to Stealth Rock, which means that he can come in far mor often. He can run a great choice set, a fantastic swords dance set, or even a suprisingly good stealth rock set. However, diversity does not mean everything. Bulk helps, and having great overall defenses, to the point Yache Berry allows survival from key attacks means that you are a boss.
    Latios-Without his buddies of terror, TTar usage will fall, meaning Latios will no longer fear the dreaded Pursuit from the destroyer. HIs Scarf and Specs sets not only outpace so many mons, but also ruin them with Draco Meteors. To put it bluntly, he can dent his main counters, Ferro and TTar, with ease, and can serve as a great nuke for several teams.
    Landorus-T-Without a doubt the best pivot in the tier. Lando T Screams bulky offense and has the stats to match. Good bulk, especially with Intimidate, and monsterous attack. Landorus T fills several roles Chomp can fill, but has his own advantages, mainly U Turn, extra power, Rock polish, and Intimidate.
    Rotom W-Only Ferro counters this beast, and with the nukes of Keldeo and Landorus gone, Rotom will just get better. Choice sets no longer worry as much about taking that key Secret Sword or Focus Blast. Defensive sets now can actually take hits. He is the best user of Volt Switch, and is probably the best Electric Type for Rain teams. H-Pump is great in the metagame, as rain is so dominant.

    THese are my predictions for S Rank after our suspect tests. Thoughts?
  2. vyomov

    vyomov

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    What about Kyu-B? Without Landorus to outspeed and OHKO with Focus Blast or Keldeo to beat it, Scarf Cube can click Outrage and rampage teams.
  3. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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    Kyurem-B's speed (which it can do nothing about on its own), awkward movepool (doesn't match its best stats) and hazard weakness (weak to SR andSpikes) hold it back as an S-Rank worthy threat. Scarf Kyu-B's Outrages are also tanked by the numerous Steels in the tier, which at least one that competent teams would have, and the hazard weakness ensures it won't be so easy as 'switching out to reset confusion and try again'.
  4. Tressed

    Tressed òwó
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    Except for the fact that its still outsped by Jirachi, Terrakion, Lati@s, etc, and still gets destroyed by Scizor and Breloom. The removal of two Pokemon doesn't change the fact that Kyu-B is too slow to reliably use a Scarf against offensive teams without being picked off, and requires too much support to be considered S-Rank.

    MX42, I think we should wait until after the suspect tests are done, and then consider what is better when / if Lando and Keldeo go. Until then, anything theoretical is pretty meaningless.
  5. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    I had asked about this a good while back- while I can't give you exact pages, I suggest you search back a bit and people make a very good argument of why Scizor isn't even A+ material. I believe we agreed on A or A-. Just because he's used a lot doesn't mean he's good. Well, he is good, but not overly fantastic like S rank is supposed to be. Sure, he can run a ton of different sets, but most of the time those sets just consist of Bullet Punch/Bug Bite or U-Turn/Filler/Filler (using filler loosely) but he has a hard counter in Volcarona or pretty much anything faster (which is a lot) with a fire move can check him, even under rain. He's great at picking stuff off for your main sweeper to sweep, but Bullet Punch isn't enough. He's A rank and most likely staying there.
    If Keldeo and Lando-I leave, that is. Based off my personal experience Ferro is incredibly underwhelming. Yes, he can function as a wall. But so can other Pokes like Jellicent and Blissey. I feel like Ferrothorn's only real claim to fame is a wall that actually has a usable attacking stat. It doesn't even really have much over other walls besides having both Spikes and SR and having Leech Seed, which other mons are perfectly capable of using. He just has a bunch of useful resistances and that's why he's A-Rank, not S. He just needs something else, which I think is reliable recovery.
    If there's one mon I'd support, it's this. Garchomp can be useful as a lead or a sweeper, and can even take advantage of it's usable SpA and run Fire Blast over Fire Fang to deal with physical Steels. It can even use Yache Berry and still doesn't mind the power loss. Also very capable of running Choice Band. It has little coverage moves, but it has everything it needs in three attacks with the Dragon/Ground/Fire combination hitting everything at least neutrally. Sadly, it has an awkward base speed with no way of boosting it, which could be it's major factor in holding it back.
    I've only ever used Latios scarfed, and based off my experiences the last statement of that is false. Anything that can take a Draco Meteor or Surf/Psyshock can easily stop Latios, Ttar does a fantastic job at it. With Latios, you can choose four out of Draco Meteor/Psyshock/Surf/Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Fire, and while it seems to be enough, it really isn't. Not matter what you run, there will be something that can stop you, namely Pursuit trappers in Scizor/Tyranitar. Definite nuke that is A+, but not S.
    I'll start off with this: No. He's really not as good in practice as on paper- Mamoswine stops him cold. Mamoswine's common EV spreads outspeed Landorus-T's common spreads, and Icicle Crash is still an OHKO at -1. Even if you run enough speed on Landy-T to outspeed, you either giving up crucial attack or bulk EV's that either power up Ice Shard or turn your 2HKO EQ into a 3HKO. Sure, he can set rocks and hit stuff hard- but so can Terrakion and Garchomp. And they're fast enough to actually beat other mons.
    I'm iffy on this one... I want to say yes and I want to say no. Rotom-W can be smacked on to almost any team with fantastic success, but VoltTurn isn't as dominant in BW2 as it was in BW1. With Ground types everywhere, Volt Switch is hurt and choiced sets become set-up fodder. Bulky attacker is probably the best set. I really want to say yes, but A+ is really good for him and I can't think of a reason why he'd be S. He hits hard, so does Hydreigon. He's a good bulky attacker, so is Conkeldurr. Those are just examples off the top of my head, there's other things that can be said too. If Keldeo is banned (that's a huge IF) I'd vote yes. Until then, Rotom can't be moved now.
  6. Poplolita

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    Tentacruel? It would of been OHKO by life orb landorus eathpower, or simply a set up bait, and donphan is already a rapid spinner in that team. Why would he use jellicent when he already have chandelure??? And gyarados... would of been either tricked or destroyed by rotom wash. A gyarados that can't set up is useless. Vaporeon has protect to scout trick, and doesn't have to set up to fulfil his role. I feel that you don't even know how bluetta team works. I'm sure someone who has been rank 2300-2100 many time on many alt pretty much know better than you and I.
  7. Magcargo

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    This definition seems to fit vaporeon well. Its a decent bulky water, but its eclipsed by pokemon in higher ranks like gastrodon, jellicent, bulky gyarados (gyarados doesn't need setup to be useful) and several other bulky waters like slowking and slowbro.

    Anyways, I think magnezone should go up to Top B-rank. In the current metagame, several steel types like scizor and ferrothorn are very common and threatening and magnezone's ability to trap and kill them is appreciated more than ever. Its Choice specs set is its best set in the current metagame since it garentees a OHKO on ferrothorn with HP fire outside of rain and it can immediately beat skrmory and scizor. Although viewed as gimmicky, a Choice scarf set with HP ground can check faster steel types like lucario and heatran not wielding an air balloon or choice scarf. While it is very easy to check with pokemon like gastrodon, I feel that its utilities make it top B-Rank.
  8. Chou Toshio

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    Even if a Pokemon can work well or fill a niche on a single good team, that does not make it a good Pokemon for the overall metagame.

    The point is that for the vast majority of teams, Vaporeon does not have enough utility or defensive power to merit its use. C Rank is quite appropriate for Vaporeon.

    If this list promoted everything just because 1 or 2 users favorite it, everything would end up in B/A class and the list would lose all meaning.

    I wonder if we should maybe label these tiers with simple performance descriptions as well. Easier to understand, and less vague than the long winded descriptions everyone likes to quote but can almost be applied to everything with the right spin.

    simple descriptions:

    S Rank: Stand-out incredible pokemon-- these are the top threats of the metagame.
    A Rank: Great Pokemon that are very common and define the metagame.
    B Rank: Not the biggest threats, but truly staple Pokemon of the metagame.
    C Rank: Not common, but can find a niche or are potentially worth using.
    D Rank: Almost never a good choice, but it has attributes that could potentially be useful.
    E Rank: Almost not worth talking about.


    Vaporeon or P2 are definitely NOT a staples the metagame btw.
  9. Poplolita

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    I'm going to copy paste Mr. Rothamel at this point. You either didn't follow vaporeon discussion or are just trolling. It is seriously getting redundant.

    "Here: Vaporeon doesn't really play the same role as Jellicent. Though both are best used defensively, Vaporeon's pure Water typing helps it against Tyranitar, keeping it from being super effectively Crunched or Pursuited by the offensive sets. Vappy can also pass massive Wishes without being an incredible liability against half the metagame a lá Blissey. Having room for Protect is nice, too, for scouting Choiced Pokémon."

    Gastrodon can't wish pass. 'nuff said.

    Also, why would you compare gyarados to vaporeon??? Orange/Apple.

    Get the point now?
  10. Poplolita

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    I kept suggesting you guys to watch some players battle on showdown. If you did follow my advice, you wouldn't even type things like: "fill a niche on a single good team" Do you watch Mr. Rothamel? Did you watch RomanX1X? All bluetta variant team using vaporeon before he left for unknown reason? Or even me (VapoLeon on showdown)?

    It's crazy how since I started to talk with top players like ben gay, seasonsQ, bluetta, etc etc, and asked them if they follow this thread. The first response they gave me is: What is this? They had no idea this thread even existed, and those are TOP PLAYERS! This thread... I give up. I really feel like talking with theorymon instead of actual experienced players.
  11. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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    Dude, the ladder is known for having players oblivious to this forum even if they happened to be good. That also has nothing to do with the discussion on how good Vaporeon performs as a whole. All this talk about rank one attains with a pokemon does not influence its rank: did you know I managed to breach top 7 with a Riolu team in NU? The reason for that is not because Riolu is fantastically broken, but because most players I faced were inexperienced or unprepared. Similiarly, Vaporeon likely saw success because players didn't have the means or knowledge to take it on, not because it functions exceptionally well.

    Vaporeon itself offers synergy issues when trying to utilise Hydration, since it already clashes weaknesses to Politoed, whereas other Rain abusers in Tornadus-I, Jolteon or Thundurus-T can at least cover a weakness or two, while Vaporeon adds almost nothing in terms of defensive synergy. Hydration Vaporeon does a good job at sitting there and take hits, but I often ask myself if there is a better way to use the Rain while not being completely helpless against most of what opposing Rain has to offer in Ferrothorn, Taunt Jellicent and Thunder abusers, and not be completely neutered against other weather. Other bulky Waters can still do their thing while usually not giving a damn about the weather change (it's more the boost opponents get that they are worried about), but Vaporeon loses its reliable recovery, which is a serious issue as that is the biggest thing Vaporeon has going for it.

    Vaporeon also doesn't have the useful resistances other bulky Waters have. Rotom-Wash has a Flying resist and Ground immunity; Jellicent and Tentacruel takes Bug and Fighting attacks; Gastrodon has an immunity to Electric. These factors are enough to make one reconsider Vaporeon's placement on a team, as it is generally more important to have resistances than to simply have a sponge that may or may not survive 2HKOes from these threats. While Vaporeon has very powerful recovery, it also generally takes more overall damage from threats due to its lack of important resists, which can force it to recover more and support / attack less. This lack of resists are compounded by the fact that hazards can inch Vaporeon into 2HKO range from most offensive threats. Wish, Roar, and Heal Bell are notable advantages, but obviously cannot fit all of them into a single set and faces competition with Chansey anyway.

    Water Absorb Vaporeon has very inconsistent recovery, and its low speed makes it difficult to heal and support at the same time with Wish.
  12. Princess Bubblegum

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    Just a little nitpick about Chou's post, use isn't that relevant in this ranking list. Take Donphan and Landorus for example, both have similar use (<2% use difference), one is S tier as a top threat that is in suspect right now, the other is a relative joke religated to C teir for its tiny niche in spinning and having priorty, and OK defenses.
  13. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    I know the ranks are not supposed to reflect use, and that almost the whole point was to rank poke via some "objective" notion of power, rather than usage.

    However, the whole threads is losing its standards and spiraling stuff upwards. B Pokes as a whole were good pokes important to the metagame. Now there's a bunch of niche stuff you almost never see mixed in with staples like Magnezone and Espeon. It's just like-- what?
  14. Punchshroom

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    The A- Rank is also occupied by a grand total of 2 pokemon. :/
  15. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I agree with this, I love Zapdos and Amoonguss for example, but I don't think they are B tier at all. I think that C tier should have useful niche Pokemon, and a bunch of C tier pokemon should be knocked down to D teir, as they IMO are extremely niche Pokemon, used on very specialized teams.
  16. ciaranroy

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    But these Pokemon should really be staples. Zapdos is a stall staple due to its ability to reliably beat Landorus. Amoonguss is again a really great pokemon due to its ability to counter Keldeo and its access to Spore AND Regenerator (amazing). I don't think Pokemon should be lowered because they are rarely seen, as this is a viability thread. Zapdos and Amoonguss are very viable Pokemon. That being said, I think C Rank could do with a cleanup. Lots of these pokemon aren't really viable at all, they just have a very slim niche.
  17. Chou Toshio

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    Zapdos and Amoongus are not that great examples because they really should see more use-- but I'd imagine them more as B- pokes.

    However, pokes like Ditto, Mew, Feraligatr, Weavile, Darmanitan, Victini, and Wobb are like the definition of rarely used niche. Bronzong was put in B back when Tornadus-T was in the metagame; and while he still checks a lot of good stuff (like Mamoswine and Tornadus), a counter to Latios that is setup bait for Latias is a major flaw. I am not sure why Chansey and Blissey got moved up.

    I'm not saying that Pokemon like Bronzong, Weavile, or Roserade aren't respectable-- but I am saying that the ranking would be better balanced and make more sense if C Rank itself was more respectable (and thus B Rank held to a higher standard as well).
  18. Poplolita

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    Yes... except the players I listed don't use gimmick teams. Unless tyranitar/keldeo/garchomp/rotom wash/jirachi/landorus I became one. Ben gay just came back, and he's already in the top. When a player stick with a set of pokemons, and with those pokemons, is able to constantly reach the top on the ladder, it does say a lot about those pokemons viability.

    "Vaporeon also doesn't have the useful resistances other bulky Waters have. Rotom-Wash has a Flying resist and Ground immunity; Jellicent and Tentacruel takes Bug and Fighting attacks; Gastrodon has an immunity to Electric"

    I don't think this argument should really be used. Those resist also come with drawback.

    Jellicent is weak against dark and ghost. Tentacruel can't take earthquake or psychic. Gastrodon has 4x weakness against grass.
    The only pokemon who really stand out with his resistance is rotom wash, but still, vaporeon and rotom wash both play completly different role.



    "Wish, Roar, and Heal Bell are notable advantages, but obviously cannot fit all of them into a single set and faces competition with Chansey anyway."

    You made a counter argument to your own "argument above". You said vaporeon doesn't have useful resistance. Chansey has none, and is weak against combat, doesn't have leftover. (Try using chansey against a sandstorm team, and A DECENT ONE.) See where I'm getting at?


    "Vaporeon itself offers synergy issues when trying to utilise Hydration, since it already clashes weaknesses to Politoed, whereas other Rain abusers in Tornadus-I, Jolteon or Thundurus-T can at least cover a weakness or two, while Vaporeon adds almost nothing in terms of defensive synergy. Hydration Vaporeon does a good job at sitting there and take hits, but I often ask myself if there is a better way to use the Rain while not being completely helpless against most of what opposing Rain has to offer in Ferrothorn, Taunt Jellicent and Thunder abusers, and not be completely neutered against other weather. Other bulky Waters can still do their thing while usually not giving a damn about the weather change (it's more the boost opponents get that they are worried about), but Vaporeon loses its reliable recovery, which is a serious issue as that is the biggest thing Vaporeon has going for it."

    Hydration vaporeon sucks. Try using water absorb wish support vaporeon outside of rain team. And I really do mean it, try IT! And then come back with some relevant point that will make sense. If you want to talk about a pokemon viability, use it's best set.


    Note: !! At this point all the comments are kicking a dead horse and repeating things said about thirdy times already. Vaporeon doesn't deserve B rank based on my experience and the players I spectated. But if you feel that it should stay C rank for whatever reason. So be it. I don't really care anymore. This ou ranking is already so flawed. The only relevant rank I agree with is A+ and S anyway. I'm not coming back to this meaningless thread that even OU top players don't even visit. I'm done.
  19. SmashBrosBrawl

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    Ill make some nominations that i feel are deserving:
    Tornadus B+->A: For all the reason that were said in the last few pages. Hurricane/Focus Blast provides excellent unresisted coverage and hit hard coming off 125 sp atk, u-turn maintain momentum for your team and combined with dugtrio can eliminate jirachi, prankster rain dance/tailwind/taunt makes it a great supporter that can still maintain a huge offensive presence.

    Stoutland B->B+: An excellente revenge killer for sand teams with great bulk and
    coverage. Its speed under sandstorm allows it to revenge kill even scarfers (except terrakion/keldeo/latios).

    Breloom A->A+: Spore, 130 atk, technician stab bullet seed and mach punch, swords dance. Not much need to be said. Breloom can effectively remove from play one pokemon on your opponent team, cripple another then switch out and revenge kill shit midgame with mach punch. Late game when its counters are removed (and there arent many) it can just setup swords dance and destroy everything. A top tier threat that should never be understimated. If your team lacks a safe switch in for this thing youre going to have a hard time.

    Gyarados A-->A: Great bulk, key resistances to bug, fighting, steel, water and an immunity to ground, moxie, dragon dance, water stab. All of these features combined make gyarados one of the best setup sweepers in the game. It can setup on the likes of sp def jirachi, scizor, forretress, tentacruel, gastrodon, lucario, LANDORUS, some KELDEO among others and wreck havoc after just one dragon dance. Moxie only makes it better to ensure the opponent cant afford to sack anything to bring a revenge killer safely.

    Reuniclus B->A-: It can still wreck havoc. The trick room set is nearly impossible to wall, forcing your opponent to repeatdly switch out in order to stall the turns. Combine this with hazards support and reuniclus can easily wear down the opponent team. Magic guard allows it to come in at anytime and do it all over again making it a literal nightmare for any team that lacks sp def jirachi. The calm mind set is nearly impossible to stop if you lack hydreigon or ttar or something ridiculous strong like band kyurem b. Once it gets going you will wish you had a solid answer for it.
  20. ShootingStarmie

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    I'm supporting SSB on Breloom to A+

    Breloom has a great base 130 atk, and has access to one of the greatest moves in Pokemon, the 100% accurate sleep move Spore. Spore basically takes out a Pokemon from the game, as with the new sleep mechanics, the sleep clock starts over after the Pokemon which is sleeping switches out, and you can't afford to stay in and waste 2-3 turns in this faced pass metagame.

    Breloom is also pretty diverse. It can run a few sets pretty effectively. First is the SD set, which allows to sweep team pretty easily once it's counters have been eliminated. Then there's the Banded set, forcing switches with it's extremely powerful Low Sweep. The idea of the set is to lower the speed of the Pokemon that switches into Breloom (usually Lati@s), in which Jolly Breloom can out speed after wards. And finally, there's the Focus Punch set, which I believe is the most devastating. The idea is you come in on something slower than you, Spore it, and Focus Punch the incoming Pokemon. This is such an amazing wall breaker, and often allows other Pokemon with similar counters to sweep easily.

    Anyway, this is getting a bit lengthy. Overall, Breloom's typing, 2 great abilities, and Spore should be enough to push it into A+.

    Sorry if this post is worded a bit weirdly, it's 2am here in England atm.
  21. PDC

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    Alright, time to weigh in on some noms.


    For the most part, Tornadus is still a threat. That hasn't changed. It does belong in the A tier simply because of how good it actually is. Not a single thing can take a Hurricane repeatedly and continue to wall Tornadus well unless you are either Specially Defensive Jirachi or the pink blobs. If you really look at how badly Tornadus tears up some team nowadays you will easily see why it still deserves a high ranking. Great partner for Rain, and it actually does have quite a few unique uses in today's metagame outside of being just a Hurricane spammer. Definitely a huge asset to Rain teams due to the momentum it gains and the power it has from a STAB Hurricane. Not as cool as Moltres, but definitely high up their.

    Stoutland is still a pretty cool Pokemon, no doubt about that. B+ is probably as high as it deserves to go, but because of how it is a fast and powerful miniature Excadrill and amazing Pursuiter, especially for stall as demonstrated by Meru's recent team. B+ is not too high for it, as it is simply an underratted amazing Pokemon. But there is no doubt in my mind that Stoutland does have quite a bit of flaws. It should probably stay in B for the moment though, just because of the prevalence of Breloom and how overall I just don't feel it deserves anything higher, at least at the moment. It is a good Pokemon, but Stoutland does have quite a lot of glaring flaws. But for a NU Pokemon, it sure as hell is a pretty solid choice for OU teams.

    Breloom is a great Pokemon with that 100% accurate Spore and strong priority and sweeping abilities, but I feel that it just isn't worth placing in A+ rank. A is a perfect place for it to be, and although it can destroy some rain stall teams and do a lot of damage to sand stall, it just isn't to amazing. For the most part Breloom is a bit overhyped as a technician user. To be honest I think it's best set right now actually is either the Focus Sash Anti-Lead or SubPunch, as Bulk Up just doesn't work too well at all in this metagame, and standard SD Loom I just don't feel function as well as it previously did. A Rank is perfect for it, as it is certainly an amazing Pokemon, just nothing overly special. It gets stopped easier than you think, and in no way is it some sort of unstoppable force, at least for the most part. Definitely good, but nothing worth ranking higher than it is now.

    Gyarados is definitely underrated at the moment. I liked it a lot during early BW2, but after awhile it just seemed a bit lackluster. But now I feel Gyarados is back in full swing, I like it. It's SubDD set is definitely something to look out for, nothing like it in the metagame. SubDDNite is pretty cool, but it just gets revenged a bit easier in this metagame. Gyarados is definitely something cool at the time, and it does need a buff in the viability ranking list. It is on par with a lot of the hotter sweepers right now. Acting as a great check to Breloom, ParaRachi, Scizor, Keldeo, and Landorus-I. Whether it be bulky SleepTalk or SubDD, it is a great Pokemon.

    Reuniclus shaped the metagame from the second it was recognized. Trick Room is by far the best set it has currently, it can destroy a lot more than you think. Combinations of CBTar + Trick Room HP Fire Reuniclus were pretty common, just because of how well they work. Reuniclus deserves the ranking of about a B simply because of although it has the potential to be great, but overall is just countered and not as useful as it once was for the metagame. Reuniclus deserves more recognition, but not too much. Scizor being #1 along with Jirachi and Tyranitar being as common as ever make it just a bit too inefficient. I feel it is better than a B-, but it is not A Rank. A solid B fits it well.
  22. moonbase

    moonbase

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    I support everything PDC says, if my opinion means anything.
  23. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    ...Espeon is the overall bulkier Pokemon, with 65 / 60 / 95 > 65 / 75 / 75-- you just don't see Espeon ev'd as bulky as often because people invest in its awesome Speed. Xatu may SEEM bulkier just because its defensive typing is overall more useful.
  24. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Well I gave it a shot, and I had difficulty not getting 3HKOed by every neutral attack under the sun (not literally) whenever I switched in to tank a hit, and being forced to WishTect in that scenario nearly every time was not fun and left me pretty wide open. Wish may be good support, but Vaporeon is often forced to choose between healing itself or its teammate, since it no longer has reliable recovery. With Protect and Scald thrown into the mix, Vappy already has 4MSS, which is my biggest gripe with the set. Without Roar, things like Volcarona and SubDD Gyarados beat you one-on-one. Without Toxic, it isn't able to stall out pokemon that can heal themselves. Without Heal Bell, Vaporeon is again not utilising one of its main niches over other Water-types. I'm sorry, but your arguments have failed to convince me why I should be using Vaporeon over another Water-type that has either more resistances, reliable recovery or consistent utility. For the record, top OU players do visit, just not all of them, capisch~?

    Now onto better discussion.

    Tornadus is a very dangerous threat. STAB Flying doesn't have too many resists in OU, and most of them do not have reliable recovery or are flat out too frail to tank the hit. Outside of Hurricane spam, it has U-Turn to keep momentum against its switch-ins, Superpower or Focus Blast to smash the pink blobs and Steels, a quick Taunt to stop status, boosting or healing attempts and a quick Rain Dance to neuter the opponent's Chlorophyll / Sand Rush sweeper or whatever in case your Politoed was unexpectedly KOed. There's even Sleep Talk which can be used to soak up Spore and coincides with Prankster to launch a quick and powerful attack, as Flying isn't resisted by many in the tier. Its SR vulnerability prevents it from constantly jumping in and out with U-Turn and wearing down counters with Hurricane like Tornadus-T did, plus it is pretty frail and reliant on Rain, but it is still a very potent threat. A- from me.

    Can't comment on Stoutland because I haven't used it :/

    Breloom has always been a hard pokemon to play around, and an absolute nightmare for slower pokemon. Spore puts them out of commision and deters faster pokemon from switching in to resist a STAB attack and KO back. After Sleep Clause is initiated, the faster check still has to worry about Breloom's powerful moves. Its STAB moves hit devastatingly hard, and there's the risk of Stone Edge that makes would be switch-ins pause. Technician Mach Punch has about the same utility as Scizor's Bullet Punch, hitting more threats SE at the cost of hitting a lot more NVE and is useless against Gengar. Substitute Breloom makes offensive teams cringe if it gets on up safely, or if it has Poison Heal causes quite a bit of hell for defensive teams as well. The issue mainly lies with how easily Breloom can cripple pokemon and setup / wreck.
    It can take good advantage of the bulky Waters and Steels in OU, and resistance to the EdgeQuake combo means it can try to tank Landorus-T as well and threaten the Spore. However it isn't bulky enough to rely on its good defensive typing nor is it fast enough to not be relying on Mach Punch or Substitute most of the time to deal with a majority of threats, making it more predictable. Agreed that it should stay in A where it is.

    Gyarados's typing alone is extremely anti-meta: it boasts resistances to lots of things, including but not limited to Keldeo, Landorus-I, Heatran, Scizor, Toxicroak and Volcarona; it has a deadly setup move in Dragon Dance; it has a powerful STAB combo; it has good bulk and access to Taunt; and it gains a boost in Rain and possibly Moxie. A recipe for potential right here. The SR weakness hold it back though as it can turn many 3HKOes into 2HKOes, most notably from Keldeo. However it has few notable flaws otherwise: Intimidate is a great boon that allows it to setup on stuff like Ferrothorn (needs Taunt or preferably Sub) and Scizor, and its STAB combo is resisted by Rotom-W alone. It is hindered by Sun though, as it neuters its main STAB while the other only has 8 PP and takes 2 turns. Definitely a threat to watch out for, but am torn between A- and A.

    Haven't used Reuni since the start of BW2. Guilty :I
  25. eriados

    eriados

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    buddy, you've been arguing about vaporeon for pages, and practically everyone has told you that you're wrong, with arguments to back it up. can you just accept that you are wrong on this one and move on?
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