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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I think he mentioned that because Heatran regularly combats Tornadus in Rain, so Fire Blast is weakened.
  2. Ehrmantraut

    Ehrmantraut

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    which is exactly the point i'm trying to make. the few things that can take Hurricanes fear Focus Blast, Superpower or Dugtrio making tornadus incredibly hard to wall.
  3. namehtmas

    namehtmas i have seen a sheepish wonder
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    Any thoughts on moving Gothitelle up to A-? I've been using it a lot recently, and it's a very good revenge killer, and it has enough bulk to be able to come in on a lot of threats as well. It really punishes Choice users who lock themselves in on resisted or weak attacks, and it's movepool isn't great but it's good enough. I've been using the specs set and it has enough power to kill most threats that it traps.
  4. Poplolita

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    I'm not sure who he is, but I recently watched someone using bluetta's team on Ou replay.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35938973

    His name is Caafffa. Since the second ladder reset, most vaporeon users including Bluetta and me - VapoLeon - pretty much deserted, left or hide on another all.(I'm not really into pokemon atm, I just want to see vaporeon in her deserved rank on this thread)

    You can follow him to watch some of his game. He reminds me of Bluetta a bit.

    There is also Mr. Rothamel. He uses a less stallish team with vaporeon which is really efficient. Go watch some of his game. He's really good, but unfortunaly, he also seems to play less than before which is unfortunate.
  5. MewTheDestroyer

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    Err, can someone explain to me why Terrakion dropped from S rank to A+? It works as a set up sweeper, can run Band or Scarf, hell can run Mixed somewhat, and runs lead set greatly with access to Taunt and Stealth Rocks.
    Edit: When I say mixed I mean it can run Life orb with HP ice to some extent.
  6. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg and now im gonna say penis
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    It's a great poke, but there isn't anything spectacular about it really. It is so easily stopped by scarfers/walls (lando-t)/faster pokes/the most common priorities/etc. that it really is not sweeping very often, if ever.
  7. TenaciousAfroman

    TenaciousAfroman

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    Terrakion had a great run in the beginning of the new metagame but fell short of much hype. Though it's got great viability it's become more easily checked and countered by common threats/walls in the metagame. HP Ice is gimmicky for a Gliscor and Landorus-T counter, but without a Scarf it's left vulnerable because of it's lack of a solid priority move. Also pokemon with super effective priority moves destroy Terrakion sweeps / tandoms and bring Terrakion to a situational effective late game sweeper.
  8. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    everything Vaporeon has done in this game would have been done better by both Gastrodon,Jellicent or Tentacruel. the only thing Vaporeon got is Roar and Wish and this isn't enough to offset the problem that a mono water type isn't exactly great in this meta game.
  9. MX42

    MX42

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    With Lando and soon the Pony being suspected, we might want to add more pokes to s rank. Our S rank is small compared to other tiers.

    Possible canidates~
    Scizor- bar none the best user of priority. There is a reason he stayed at #1 for so long. He is without a doubt the best user of Swords Dance in the tier and a great user of Choice Band. Every team needs a Scizor check. He is just that good. His Fire weakness is dodged easily, as the only fire type in the tier he actually fears is Heatran, and he is OHKOed by Superpower. TO beat Scizor, you either need Fire Moves in Neutral weather, or rain boosted water moves. Even then, Roost helps seperate him from other key threats, it give him longevity to compliment his outstanding bulk and power.
    Ferrothorn- once Lando I and Keldeo leave, we are back in the BW1 era, only with Kyu-B, Lando-T, and Thun-t, and only one of those can be a nuisance to Ferro. Ferro is without a doubt the best supporter bar Politoed. Leech Seeds, Thunder Waves, and hazards are great for any team, as they help cripple threats to the metagame. He checks every dragon in the tier, and is why Outrage is not op and Kyurem B is OU. He is one of the two reasons HP Fire is so necessary on Latios and several special attackers. Ferro not only is the best supporter, but also one of, if not the, best wall in the entire tier.
    Garchomp-Even without hax, Chomp is still a fantastic pokemon. Without Keldeo to be a thorn in his side, Chomp can destroy the metagame far easier. Unlike the other physical dragons of the OU tier, comp is not weak to Stealth Rock, which means that he can come in far mor often. He can run a great choice set, a fantastic swords dance set, or even a suprisingly good stealth rock set. However, diversity does not mean everything. Bulk helps, and having great overall defenses, to the point Yache Berry allows survival from key attacks means that you are a boss.
    Latios-Without his buddies of terror, TTar usage will fall, meaning Latios will no longer fear the dreaded Pursuit from the destroyer. HIs Scarf and Specs sets not only outpace so many mons, but also ruin them with Draco Meteors. To put it bluntly, he can dent his main counters, Ferro and TTar, with ease, and can serve as a great nuke for several teams.
    Landorus-T-Without a doubt the best pivot in the tier. Lando T Screams bulky offense and has the stats to match. Good bulk, especially with Intimidate, and monsterous attack. Landorus T fills several roles Chomp can fill, but has his own advantages, mainly U Turn, extra power, Rock polish, and Intimidate.
    Rotom W-Only Ferro counters this beast, and with the nukes of Keldeo and Landorus gone, Rotom will just get better. Choice sets no longer worry as much about taking that key Secret Sword or Focus Blast. Defensive sets now can actually take hits. He is the best user of Volt Switch, and is probably the best Electric Type for Rain teams. H-Pump is great in the metagame, as rain is so dominant.

    THese are my predictions for S Rank after our suspect tests. Thoughts?
  10. vyomov

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    What about Kyu-B? Without Landorus to outspeed and OHKO with Focus Blast or Keldeo to beat it, Scarf Cube can click Outrage and rampage teams.
  11. Punchshroom

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    Kyurem-B's speed (which it can do nothing about on its own), awkward movepool (doesn't match its best stats) and hazard weakness (weak to SR andSpikes) hold it back as an S-Rank worthy threat. Scarf Kyu-B's Outrages are also tanked by the numerous Steels in the tier, which at least one that competent teams would have, and the hazard weakness ensures it won't be so easy as 'switching out to reset confusion and try again'.
  12. BlackLight

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    Except for the fact that its still outsped by Jirachi, Terrakion, Lati@s, etc, and still gets destroyed by Scizor and Breloom. The removal of two Pokemon doesn't change the fact that Kyu-B is too slow to reliably use a Scarf against offensive teams without being picked off, and requires too much support to be considered S-Rank.

    MX42, I think we should wait until after the suspect tests are done, and then consider what is better when / if Lando and Keldeo go. Until then, anything theoretical is pretty meaningless.
  13. Homeslice

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    I had asked about this a good while back- while I can't give you exact pages, I suggest you search back a bit and people make a very good argument of why Scizor isn't even A+ material. I believe we agreed on A or A-. Just because he's used a lot doesn't mean he's good. Well, he is good, but not overly fantastic like S rank is supposed to be. Sure, he can run a ton of different sets, but most of the time those sets just consist of Bullet Punch/Bug Bite or U-Turn/Filler/Filler (using filler loosely) but he has a hard counter in Volcarona or pretty much anything faster (which is a lot) with a fire move can check him, even under rain. He's great at picking stuff off for your main sweeper to sweep, but Bullet Punch isn't enough. He's A rank and most likely staying there.
    If Keldeo and Lando-I leave, that is. Based off my personal experience Ferro is incredibly underwhelming. Yes, he can function as a wall. But so can other Pokes like Jellicent and Blissey. I feel like Ferrothorn's only real claim to fame is a wall that actually has a usable attacking stat. It doesn't even really have much over other walls besides having both Spikes and SR and having Leech Seed, which other mons are perfectly capable of using. He just has a bunch of useful resistances and that's why he's A-Rank, not S. He just needs something else, which I think is reliable recovery.
    If there's one mon I'd support, it's this. Garchomp can be useful as a lead or a sweeper, and can even take advantage of it's usable SpA and run Fire Blast over Fire Fang to deal with physical Steels. It can even use Yache Berry and still doesn't mind the power loss. Also very capable of running Choice Band. It has little coverage moves, but it has everything it needs in three attacks with the Dragon/Ground/Fire combination hitting everything at least neutrally. Sadly, it has an awkward base speed with no way of boosting it, which could be it's major factor in holding it back.
    I've only ever used Latios scarfed, and based off my experiences the last statement of that is false. Anything that can take a Draco Meteor or Surf/Psyshock can easily stop Latios, Ttar does a fantastic job at it. With Latios, you can choose four out of Draco Meteor/Psyshock/Surf/Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Fire, and while it seems to be enough, it really isn't. Not matter what you run, there will be something that can stop you, namely Pursuit trappers in Scizor/Tyranitar. Definite nuke that is A+, but not S.
    I'll start off with this: No. He's really not as good in practice as on paper- Mamoswine stops him cold. Mamoswine's common EV spreads outspeed Landorus-T's common spreads, and Icicle Crash is still an OHKO at -1. Even if you run enough speed on Landy-T to outspeed, you either giving up crucial attack or bulk EV's that either power up Ice Shard or turn your 2HKO EQ into a 3HKO. Sure, he can set rocks and hit stuff hard- but so can Terrakion and Garchomp. And they're fast enough to actually beat other mons.
    I'm iffy on this one... I want to say yes and I want to say no. Rotom-W can be smacked on to almost any team with fantastic success, but VoltTurn isn't as dominant in BW2 as it was in BW1. With Ground types everywhere, Volt Switch is hurt and choiced sets become set-up fodder. Bulky attacker is probably the best set. I really want to say yes, but A+ is really good for him and I can't think of a reason why he'd be S. He hits hard, so does Hydreigon. He's a good bulky attacker, so is Conkeldurr. Those are just examples off the top of my head, there's other things that can be said too. If Keldeo is banned (that's a huge IF) I'd vote yes. Until then, Rotom can't be moved now.
  14. Poplolita

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    Tentacruel? It would of been OHKO by life orb landorus eathpower, or simply a set up bait, and donphan is already a rapid spinner in that team. Why would he use jellicent when he already have chandelure??? And gyarados... would of been either tricked or destroyed by rotom wash. A gyarados that can't set up is useless. Vaporeon has protect to scout trick, and doesn't have to set up to fulfil his role. I feel that you don't even know how bluetta team works. I'm sure someone who has been rank 2300-2100 many time on many alt pretty much know better than you and I.
  15. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    This definition seems to fit vaporeon well. Its a decent bulky water, but its eclipsed by pokemon in higher ranks like gastrodon, jellicent, bulky gyarados (gyarados doesn't need setup to be useful) and several other bulky waters like slowking and slowbro.

    Anyways, I think magnezone should go up to Top B-rank. In the current metagame, several steel types like scizor and ferrothorn are very common and threatening and magnezone's ability to trap and kill them is appreciated more than ever. Its Choice specs set is its best set in the current metagame since it garentees a OHKO on ferrothorn with HP fire outside of rain and it can immediately beat skrmory and scizor. Although viewed as gimmicky, a Choice scarf set with HP ground can check faster steel types like lucario and heatran not wielding an air balloon or choice scarf. While it is very easy to check with pokemon like gastrodon, I feel that its utilities make it top B-Rank.
  16. Chou Toshio

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    Even if a Pokemon can work well or fill a niche on a single good team, that does not make it a good Pokemon for the overall metagame.

    The point is that for the vast majority of teams, Vaporeon does not have enough utility or defensive power to merit its use. C Rank is quite appropriate for Vaporeon.

    If this list promoted everything just because 1 or 2 users favorite it, everything would end up in B/A class and the list would lose all meaning.

    I wonder if we should maybe label these tiers with simple performance descriptions as well. Easier to understand, and less vague than the long winded descriptions everyone likes to quote but can almost be applied to everything with the right spin.

    simple descriptions:

    S Rank: Stand-out incredible pokemon-- these are the top threats of the metagame.
    A Rank: Great Pokemon that are very common and define the metagame.
    B Rank: Not the biggest threats, but truly staple Pokemon of the metagame.
    C Rank: Not common, but can find a niche or are potentially worth using.
    D Rank: Almost never a good choice, but it has attributes that could potentially be useful.
    E Rank: Almost not worth talking about.


    Vaporeon or P2 are definitely NOT a staples the metagame btw.
  17. Poplolita

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    I'm going to copy paste Mr. Rothamel at this point. You either didn't follow vaporeon discussion or are just trolling. It is seriously getting redundant.

    "Here: Vaporeon doesn't really play the same role as Jellicent. Though both are best used defensively, Vaporeon's pure Water typing helps it against Tyranitar, keeping it from being super effectively Crunched or Pursuited by the offensive sets. Vappy can also pass massive Wishes without being an incredible liability against half the metagame a lá Blissey. Having room for Protect is nice, too, for scouting Choiced Pokémon."

    Gastrodon can't wish pass. 'nuff said.

    Also, why would you compare gyarados to vaporeon??? Orange/Apple.

    Get the point now?
  18. Poplolita

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    I kept suggesting you guys to watch some players battle on showdown. If you did follow my advice, you wouldn't even type things like: "fill a niche on a single good team" Do you watch Mr. Rothamel? Did you watch RomanX1X? All bluetta variant team using vaporeon before he left for unknown reason? Or even me (VapoLeon on showdown)?

    It's crazy how since I started to talk with top players like ben gay, seasonsQ, bluetta, etc etc, and asked them if they follow this thread. The first response they gave me is: What is this? They had no idea this thread even existed, and those are TOP PLAYERS! This thread... I give up. I really feel like talking with theorymon instead of actual experienced players.
  19. Punchshroom

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    Dude, the ladder is known for having players oblivious to this forum even if they happened to be good. That also has nothing to do with the discussion on how good Vaporeon performs as a whole. All this talk about rank one attains with a pokemon does not influence its rank: did you know I managed to breach top 7 with a Riolu team in NU? The reason for that is not because Riolu is fantastically broken, but because most players I faced were inexperienced or unprepared. Similiarly, Vaporeon likely saw success because players didn't have the means or knowledge to take it on, not because it functions exceptionally well.

    Vaporeon itself offers synergy issues when trying to utilise Hydration, since it already clashes weaknesses to Politoed, whereas other Rain abusers in Tornadus-I, Jolteon or Thundurus-T can at least cover a weakness or two, while Vaporeon adds almost nothing in terms of defensive synergy. Hydration Vaporeon does a good job at sitting there and take hits, but I often ask myself if there is a better way to use the Rain while not being completely helpless against most of what opposing Rain has to offer in Ferrothorn, Taunt Jellicent and Thunder abusers, and not be completely neutered against other weather. Other bulky Waters can still do their thing while usually not giving a damn about the weather change (it's more the boost opponents get that they are worried about), but Vaporeon loses its reliable recovery, which is a serious issue as that is the biggest thing Vaporeon has going for it.

    Vaporeon also doesn't have the useful resistances other bulky Waters have. Rotom-Wash has a Flying resist and Ground immunity; Jellicent and Tentacruel takes Bug and Fighting attacks; Gastrodon has an immunity to Electric. These factors are enough to make one reconsider Vaporeon's placement on a team, as it is generally more important to have resistances than to simply have a sponge that may or may not survive 2HKOes from these threats. While Vaporeon has very powerful recovery, it also generally takes more overall damage from threats due to its lack of important resists, which can force it to recover more and support / attack less. This lack of resists are compounded by the fact that hazards can inch Vaporeon into 2HKO range from most offensive threats. Wish, Roar, and Heal Bell are notable advantages, but obviously cannot fit all of them into a single set and faces competition with Chansey anyway.

    Water Absorb Vaporeon has very inconsistent recovery, and its low speed makes it difficult to heal and support at the same time with Wish.
  20. Princess Bubblegum

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    Just a little nitpick about Chou's post, use isn't that relevant in this ranking list. Take Donphan and Landorus for example, both have similar use (<2% use difference), one is S tier as a top threat that is in suspect right now, the other is a relative joke religated to C teir for its tiny niche in spinning and having priorty, and OK defenses.
  21. Chou Toshio

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    I know the ranks are not supposed to reflect use, and that almost the whole point was to rank poke via some "objective" notion of power, rather than usage.

    However, the whole threads is losing its standards and spiraling stuff upwards. B Pokes as a whole were good pokes important to the metagame. Now there's a bunch of niche stuff you almost never see mixed in with staples like Magnezone and Espeon. It's just like-- what?
  22. Punchshroom

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    The A- Rank is also occupied by a grand total of 2 pokemon. :/
  23. Princess Bubblegum

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    I agree with this, I love Zapdos and Amoonguss for example, but I don't think they are B tier at all. I think that C tier should have useful niche Pokemon, and a bunch of C tier pokemon should be knocked down to D teir, as they IMO are extremely niche Pokemon, used on very specialized teams.
  24. ciaranroy

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    But these Pokemon should really be staples. Zapdos is a stall staple due to its ability to reliably beat Landorus. Amoonguss is again a really great pokemon due to its ability to counter Keldeo and its access to Spore AND Regenerator (amazing). I don't think Pokemon should be lowered because they are rarely seen, as this is a viability thread. Zapdos and Amoonguss are very viable Pokemon. That being said, I think C Rank could do with a cleanup. Lots of these pokemon aren't really viable at all, they just have a very slim niche.
  25. Chou Toshio

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    Zapdos and Amoongus are not that great examples because they really should see more use-- but I'd imagine them more as B- pokes.

    However, pokes like Ditto, Mew, Feraligatr, Weavile, Darmanitan, Victini, and Wobb are like the definition of rarely used niche. Bronzong was put in B back when Tornadus-T was in the metagame; and while he still checks a lot of good stuff (like Mamoswine and Tornadus), a counter to Latios that is setup bait for Latias is a major flaw. I am not sure why Chansey and Blissey got moved up.

    I'm not saying that Pokemon like Bronzong, Weavile, or Roserade aren't respectable-- but I am saying that the ranking would be better balanced and make more sense if C Rank itself was more respectable (and thus B Rank held to a higher standard as well).
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