Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Obviously, you have not used Abomasnow through experience, since your argument is rather pathetic, no offense, but your post didn't make sense. Specially Defensive never runs Substitute and how does Ferrothorn force it out? The only move it generally carries is Power Whip, and can only Spikes. Finally, three Blizzards from Offensive SubSeed KO that crap and the best it can do is get 1-2 layers up if it doesn't have Gyro Ball. Those myriad of weaknesses are made up for its excellent resistances in Ground and Water for example, and the Physical attcking set runs Leech Seed / Protect / Wood Hammer - Earthuqake / Ice Shard which has nothing related to the Mixed set. Honestly, this argument is going to end-up like the Gyarados one, so I'm not going to go on giving details on how wrong you are.

Of course im assuming ferrothorn has gyro ball or else i wouldnve mentioned it. And gyro ball inst that rare that you can just assume you wont see it often. And no, those weakness are in no way made up by 3 resistances. Being vulnerable to the top 1 pokemon and being utterly destroyed by a significant portion of the tier is not in any way compensated by those resistances. All of abomasnow non mixed sets are simply variations with leech seed and protect/substitute to annoy. I really dont know why youre trying to make it like if abomasnow had some versatility in it. Abomasnow is used solely for hail, none of its sets are particullary worth of having an ou analysis at all. Weather is simply the sole reason it even gets any kind of notability. He is too weak, frail and slow and while it can definitely be somewhat threatening to weather teams, at the end its still abomasnow and still struggles to survive in the current meta.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah upon reflection, Dragonite should really be in A+ tier.

Quick Update
Dragonite up from A ==> A+
Mew up from B ==> B+

I'm not ignoring the ongoing discussion, i'm just make a quick hotfix to the tier list.

 

[MikeDawg]

Of course im assuming ferrothorn has gyro ball or else i wouldnve mentioned it. And gyro ball inst that rare that you can just assume you wont see it often. And no, those weakness are in no way made up by 3 resistances. Being vulnerable to the top 1 pokemon and being utterly destroyed by a significant portion of the tier is not in any way compensated by those resistances. All of abomasnow non mixed sets are simply variations with leech seed and protect/substitute to annoy. I really dont know why youre trying to make it like if abomasnow had some versatility in it. Abomasnow is used solely for hail, none of its sets are particullary worth of having an ou analysis at all. Weather is simply the sole reason it even gets any kind of notability. He is too weak, frail and slow and while it can definitely be somewhat threatening to weather teams, at the end its still abomasnow and still struggles to survive in the current meta.

The original discussion wasn't about using these pokes without their abilities in ou, per se. It was about how Abomasnow without snow warning is better/worse than TTar without sand stream (thus contributing to the role the pokemon, rather than the weather, should contribute to weather starters' rankings)

It just derailed a bit

 

[Gary]

And wut. Are you saying that TTar is a much better pokemon than aboma without weather because it would be fantastic in UU? This is incredibly surprising because you are generally at least somewhat sound logically

You're missing my point. You were basically saying that Abomasnow would be a much more useful Pokemon in general then T-Tar if both lost their abilities, but Abomasnow has one of the worst defensive typings in the game, it's mostly outclassed by both Weavile and Mamoswine as an offensive Ice-type, and it's Sub Seed set would be pretty shitty outside of hail. At least T-Tar has SOME usefulness outside of just sand, because it's a unique Pokemon on its own that can still pose as a dangerous offensive threat. Abomasnow on the other hand, is just another Ice-type with shitty stats. I brought up T-Tar maybe dropping to UU if it lost Sand Stream because at least T-Tar would still be a good Pokemon without Sand, whereas Abomasnow would most likely find itself in NU as a bulky sub seeder. I know for a fact that in no way shape or form would Abomasnow be an all around better Pokemon if they both lost their abilities.

because you are generally at least somewhat sound logically

............

 

[MikeDawg]

You're missing my point. You were basically saying that Abomasnow would be a much more useful Pokemon in general then T-Tar if both lost their abilities, but Abomasnow has one of the worst defensive typings in the game, it's mostly outclassed by both Weavile and Mamoswine as an offensive Ice-type, and it's Sub Seed set would be pretty shitty outside of hail. At least T-Tar has SOME usefulness outside of just sand, because it's a unique Pokemon on its own that can still pose as a dangerous offensive threat. Abomasnow on the other hand, is just another Ice-type with shitty stats. I brought up T-Tar maybe dropping to UU if it lost Sand Stream because at least T-Tar would still be a good Pokemon without Sand, whereas Abomasnow would most likely find itself in NU as a bulky sub seeder. I know for a fact that in no way shape or form would Abomasnow be an all around better Pokemon if they both lost their abilities.



............

Yet ttar's is much worse... Both share fighting+bug+steel (already bad), but then you add water and ground to ttar's list (which aboma resists) and it becomes susceptible to literally the most common offensive types in the entire meta. It even has a grass weakness to add, whereas aboma inherits a fire (which really isn't all that common with rain and the like, plus aboma isn't doing much to them anyway bar eq on the switch)

So I really don't buy the typing argument because if we were going solely on that, TTar would be tiered far worse.

Have you even TRIED TTar without sand stream (wait. That's a dumb question since the answer is so obviously no). I gave unnerve a run on the ladder today and it is absolutely godawful. Try to pursuit a lati? Oops. They outspeed and 2hko. Try to pursuit a celebi? Oops. It 2hkos with GIGA DRAIN with no offensive investment. Want to crunch that reuninclus (really, I can think of no other legitimate examples where you would actually use ttar). Oops, switch to (insert anything because ttar already has this issue but it's okay because sand). There wasn't a single game where it wasn't a liability.

But, as mentioned, aboma without hail loses NOTHING as a single pokemon. Zip. Nada. And it's already accepted to be threatening (guessing you haven't used this one either) so idek what you're talking about


Best of all, your ENTIRE argument for TTar was "it still has SOME usefullness."

No evidence
No explanation
Nothing

While you still haven't mentioned what is stopping aboma fron still being able to land 1-2 kills a game?

 

[Gary]

Yet ttar's is much worse... Both share fighting+bug+steel (already bad), but then you add water and ground to ttar's list (which aboma resists) and it becomes susceptible to literally the most common offensive types in the entire meta. It even has a grass weakness to add, whereas aboma inherits a fire (which really isn't all that common with rain and the like, plus aboma isn't doing much to them anyway bar eq on the switch)

So I really don't buy the typing argument because if we were going solely on that, TTar would be tiered far worse.

Have you even TRIED TTar without sand stream (wait. That's a dumb question since the answer is so obviously no). I gave unnerve a run on the ladder today and it is absolutely godawful. Try to pursuit a lati? Oops. They outspeed and 2hko. Try to pursuit a celebi? Oops. It 2hkos with GIGA DRAIN with no offensive investment. Want to crunch that reuninclus (really, I can think of no other legitimate examples where you would actually use ttar). Oops, switch to (insert anything because ttar already has this issue but it's okay because sand). There wasn't a single game where it wasn't a liability.

But, as mentioned, aboma without hail loses NOTHING as a single pokemon. Zip. Nada. And it's already accepted to be threatening (guessing you haven't used this one either) so idek what you're talking about


Best of all, your ENTIRE argument for TTar was "it still has SOME usefullness."

No evidence
No explanation
Nothing

While you still haven't mentioned what is stopping aboma fron still being able to land 1-2 kills a game?

Wow. You're a piece of work aren't you? I try to have a nice civil discussion with you, and instead you try to put words in my mouth and making these huge accusations like I'm some kind of scrub? For your information, I've used Abomasnow plenty of times to realize that without its ability, it would suck. Abomasnow was only OU BECAUSE of its ability, not the Pokemon itself. Abomasnow is pretty much exactly the same without Snow Warning, that is true, but the only reason it's used in OU is because of the hail strategy itself. Oh please, if you would really use Abomasnow in OU without Snow Warning, then you need some help. It offers nothing that other Ice or Grass-types offer. Ironically, Abomasnow is UU WITH its ability, so why in the world would it be more OU viable then a Pokemon that already is OU? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me. What exactly does Abomasnow offer that Mamoswine and Weavile don't? Sub Seed? Oh please. Sub Seeding is already a hard enough strategy to pull off in OU already, and yet for some bizarre reason someone would pick Abomasnow out of all sub seeders? Why? It has terrible defensive typing, and Pokemon who want to successfully pull off this strategy want as many resistances as possible. Point is, Abomasnow would suck outside of its ability, because it's only used to support its teammates, not itself. It sucks.

T-tar is in a similar boat, but saying that Abomasnow is an all around better Pokemon then T-Tar who has a monstrous 130 base attack and useful offensive typing. First off, without Sand, T-tar would be more of offensive Pursuit trapper than a sponge, like Scizor for example, who usually comes in after something is KOed in order to trap Latias, Latios, Celebi, or Alakazam. It would also function as a wall breaker with Choice Band, like it does now, and that set doesn't really need the Sand Stream to be effective, if that's what you're trying to say. It appreciates the extra special defense, but the banded set is more about power and breaking through defense.

Actually, fuck this. This entire argument is just plain stupid. We're arguing about how well Pokemon would fare in OU if they lost their abilities? What is this the Theorymon thread? Anyways, just end this stupid conversation now please. And quit being a jackass as well. I've been on Smogon far longer then you have, so don't try to accuse me as some kind of guy who sits here and theorymon's all day. I can tell you think that, because you pretty much just flat out said it. I don't theorymon, nor do I put words in other people's mouths like you do. Why don't you learn some respect?

This thread is falling apart....

 

[Halcyon.]

This has to be some kind of joke. It has to be. First of all, let's get something straight: no one would use either Abomasnow or Tyranitar as much as they do now without their weather starting abilities. Now let's cover some other stuff. I actually have a lot of experience using Abomasnow (probably because I didn't join two months ago), and I can honestly say that while it is a decent 'mon, if it didn't have Snow Warning, I would never EVER chose it. The mixed set is good in part because it is relatively unknown. People don't expect you to be using Abomasnow at all, let alone an Expert Belt set. It's the same with the Scarf set. Almost all the KOs you get are surprise KOs. Another thing is that Abomasnow requires great prediction since it's so slow and so frail (you make Abomasnow out to be this amazing defensive Pokémon, but it's easily 2HKO'd by Specs Hydro Pump from Politoed in the rain, which will now always be up without Snow Warning). Wood Hammer is a powerful move, but Grass isn't the best offensive typing and you take major recoil, especially if you're using it on a Pokémon with high HP investment. That + Stealth Rock will put you at dangerously low health. for something with 60 base speed that's apparently going to net a bunch of kills every game. What exactly is it taking on, anyway? Rain teams? Yeah, Keldeo, Thundurus-T (can't OHKO even after SR with Ice Shard...), Ferrothorn (HP Fire is a 4HKO in the rain, Gyro Ball is a OHKO), Tornadus, Gyarados, and all sorts of other rain Pokémon walk all over Abomasnow. Sand teams? Scizor, Stoutland, Keldeo, hell, even Forretress can kill with Gyro Ball (since sturdy will still activate cause you lack hail :( ). Sun teams? I don't even think I need to tell you why it loses to these. Abomasnow is just a mediocre Pokémon even with it's ability. Without it? Not a chance of being good.

Tyranitar, even if it might struggle without the SDef boost, could at the very least be used ON A SAND TEAM as a Pursuit trapper. Regardless, he can run an effective Focus Sash lead set with any combination of Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Crunch, Stone Edge, Superpower, Pursuit, etc. Honestly, I can't believe that anyone would argue that Abomasnow is a better Pokémon than Tyranitar, but then again I'm not actually all that surprised.

This argument is completely irrelevant though, since both these Pokémon DO have their abilities and this isn't a theorymon thread (though it might not seem that way sometimes).

 

[MikeDawg]

Wow. You're a piece of work aren't you? I try to have a nice civil discussion with you, and instead you try to put words in my mouth and making these huge accusations like I'm some kind of scrub? For your information, I've used Abomasnow plenty of times to realize that without its ability, it would suck. Abomasnow was only OU BECAUSE of its ability, not the Pokemon itself. Abomasnow is pretty much exactly the same without Snow Warning, that is true, but the only reason it's used in OU is because of the hail strategy itself. Oh please, if you would really use Abomasnow in OU without Snow Warning, then you need some help. It offers nothing that other Ice or Grass-types offer. Ironically, Abomasnow is UU WITH its ability, so why in the world would it be more OU viable then a Pokemon that already is OU? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me. What exactly does Abomasnow offer that Mamoswine and Weavile don't? Sub Seed? Oh please. Sub Seeding is already a hard enough strategy to pull off in OU already, and yet for some bizarre reason someone would pick Abomasnow out of all sub seeders? Why? It has terrible defensive typing, and Pokemon who want to successfully pull off this strategy want as many resistances as possible. Point is, Abomasnow would suck outside of its ability, because it's only used to support its teammates, not itself. It sucks.

T-tar is in a similar boat, but saying that Abomasnow is an all around better Pokemon then T-Tar who has a monstrous 130 base attack and useful offensive typing. First off, without Sand, T-tar would be more of offensive Pursuit trapper than a sponge, like Scizor for example, who usually comes in after something is KOed in order to trap Latias, Latios, Celebi, or Alakazam. It would also function as a wall breaker with Choice Band, like it does now, and that set doesn't really need the Sand Stream to be effective, if that's what you're trying to say. It appreciates the extra special defense, but the banded set is more about power and breaking through defense.

Actually, fuck this. This entire argument is just plain stupid. We're arguing about how well Pokemon would fare in OU if they lost their abilities? What is this the Theorymon thread? Anyways, just end this stupid conversation now please. And quit being a jackass as well. I've been on Smogon far longer then you have, so don't try to accuse me as some kind of guy who sits here and theorymon's all day. I can tell you think that, because you pretty much just flat out said it. I don't theorymon, nor do I put words in other people's mouths like you do. Why don't you learn some respect?

This thread is falling apart....

That isn't what we're arguing... That's what you (maybe it was someone else who started it) wanted to argue

The original point, as mentioned, was to expand upon the idea of looking at weather starters outside of their support to determine their rank.

Then someone was like "abomasnow sucks" and then this happened.

Again, you still have not provided ANY specific instance or anything where ttar without sand stream would be useful in ou at the least. And even doing that wouldn't qualify as a valid argument as you can find a single specific scenario for any poke. What you really NEED to do for me to take your argument seriously is, rather just state claims, SUPPORT them. Just because you day something doesn't immediately validate it as true, you need evidence.

Evidence for aboma's usability: it loses nothing by losing hail, it is already able to perform its part (hint: read the analysis. It doesn't change as an individual poke so everything there is valid!)

I have already provided ample support as to why ttar would NOT be viable, now you have to do the same for the opposite side.

And no, once again, saying "He is an offensive powerhouse" does not qualify anything (ramparados is an offensive powerhouse! In fact the two seem quite similar without samd!) you need some specifics, bro (see: HOL's post)

you pretty much just flat out said it. I don't theorymon, nor do I put words in other people's mouths like you do

I giggled at the paradox that is this statement

Never did i put any words in your mouth
However you just did so to me (proof above)?

And I really don't see what length of time on smogon has to do with anything...

I'll be happy to accept what you say once you pose a valid, CONCRETE argument

Edit: I act as if everything you say you are making up because:

I'll be happy to accept what you say once you pose a valid, CONCRETE argument

You still haven't done that...

This isn't the first time I've noticed you take up (multiple) posts just talking about why you are obviously right (without ever mentioning the pokemon/topic at hand...) rather than actually responding/contributing/what have you. It really doesn't advance any argument in any way. I think you just take things far too personally. I certainly had no intention of "disrespecting" you LOL you seem quite dramatic in general and it really inhibits (actually, it takes the place of) whatever point youa re attempting to make.

 

[Gary]

That isn't what we're arguing... That's what you (maybe it was someone else who started it) wanted to argue

The original point, as mentioned, was to expand upon the idea of looking at weather starters outside of their support to determine their rank.

Then someone was like "abomasnow sucks" and then this happened.

Again, you still have not provided ANY specific instance or anything where ttar without sand stream would be useful in ou at the least. And even doing that wouldn't qualify as a valid argument as you can find a single specific scenario for any poke. What you really NEED to do for me to take your argument seriously is, rather just state claims, SUPPORT them. Just because you day something doesn't immediately validate it as true, you need evidence.

Evidence for aboma's usability: it loses nothing by losing hail, it is already able to perform its part (hint: read the analysis. It doesn't change as an individual poke so everything there is valid!)

I have already provided ample support as to why ttar would NOT be viable, now you have to do the same for the opposite side.

And no, once again, saying "He is an offensive powerhouse" does not qualify anything (ramparados is an offensive powerhouse! In fact the two seem quite similar without samd!) you need some specifics, bro (see: HOL's post)



I giggled at the paradox that is this statement

Never did i put any words in your mouth
However you just did so to me (proof above)?

And I really don't see what length of time on smogon has to do with anything...

I'll be happy to accept what you say once you pose a valid, CONCRETE argument

At this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, so I'm no longer going to be involved in this random and pointless argument. It's so fucking pointless. Everything I say you act like I'm making it up. If you wont accept my opinion, then don't. Both Pokemon would suck without their abilities. Let's just leave it at that. For Christs sake. Please...just move on..... This isn't the OU Viability Ranking Thread anymore, it's the "OU Ego Ranking thread", where everybody argues all the damn time with out any rhyme or reason. I know you'll have to give me one last ego beat down before the argument ends, so got right ahead I'm all ears.

 

[Sam]

We don't have to look at the weather summoners beyond their support at all though ( bar ttar). Their support far, far outweighs any other quality they may have and really is all that defines them in the OU metagame. It doesn't matter where they would be without the ability because, well, that ability isn't going away. Could you please drop the discussion?

Anyway, I do think that TTar should be seriously considered for S. I'm not going to deny that as a whole, rain support is more valuable than sand support, and TTar should be ranked lower than Politoed if that was all TTar could provide. But in this metagame, the level of additional support that is provided by being the best pursuit trapper in this metagame brings it up another level. It facilitates sweeps for a lot of offensive threats, and is really no slouch on offensive besides pursuit either. Combined with its good bulk (especially in the sand that is provides), TTar provides a lot to the team, more than just sand. Does it's combination of offensive, pursuit, and weather support put it on the same level as Politoed? I believe so.

 

[MCBarrett]

I would agree Tyranitar that could qualify for S Rank. It is arguably a better support Pokemon for Keldeo than Politoed, meaning that Tyranitar is an invaluable partner to two of the three current S Rank Pokemon. Now that is definitely saying something. However, I would say that Politoed is on a slightly higher level due to its versatility, superior typing, and being the summoner of the most powerful weather in the game overall. Also, I don't know if it is even worth making the change since at least one of either Keldeo or Landorus-I seems to be on the way out of OU and as such Tyranitar's value will drop considerably. However, as the Metagame currently stands, I believe Tyranitar is definitely an S-Rank Pokemon.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Okay, now that we've gone off on this tangent about losing weather abilities for a while, can we get back to the original discussion? I believe it was about how Tyranitar and Politoed should be the same rank. Nothing to do with Abomasnow.

Seriously, please just stop posting about the relative viabilities of Tyranitar and Abomasnow without weather. Even just to say "I agree this discussion is stupid and we should end it, but he started it and I'm right."

EDIT: okay, looks like that happened anyway.
EDIT 2: Supporting Tyranitar for S-Rank, as it is a wonderful pursuit trapper, has godly special defense, and is a huge part of the possible brokenness of Keldeo and Landorus-I.

 

[Halcyon.]

I feel like we should wait until the results of the suspect test are finalized. Cause Tyranitar wouldn't be nearly as useful if it weren't for the Keldeo Landorus core. Still useful, but not S rank useful in my opinion.

 

[Plastic Moose]

I would like to support Tornadus for A-. it is an amazing rain sweeper, with its Hurricane blowing away most of OU. It gets great coverage with Focus Blast and U-turn is an excellent move to gain momentum. Also, Celebi, a common pokemon that counters rain teams, is crushed by Tornadus' Hurricane. Its counters, while common, can be defeated with its teammates. also, prankster is an amazing ability, with priority taunt screwing over many defensive counters to it and rain dance to make sure it isn't completely useless without Politoed. It may not be A, but A- is definitely where it belongs.

Also, on another point, Toxicroak is a very underrated and competent rain sweeper. With Dry Skin, he has insane recovery and is impossible to wear down. It has good coverage and a good typing as well. I'm not saying it should go up, but it is very underrated and can really pull its weight on rain teams

 

[vyomov]

@PlasticMoose: A- doesn't exist anymore.

OK, so I want to reply to a MUCH earlier post claiming Dragonite is far better than Salamence. It really isn't.

And now Dragonite, Dragonite is a class above Salamence and Kyube and I really don't understand the sarcastic remarks or gasps about how he's still top 10 (technically 5).

Dragonite has:

1) Priority (ies): Extreme Speed is basically one of it's main advantages over any other physical Dragon.

2) Movepool: Dragonite has such a wide movepool that he isn't forced to run mixed sets, he can dedicate max evs in the relevant stats to do what he wants, Fire Punch instead of Fire Blast, etc. He's also not a one trick pony where as Sally is basically the same set with different items.

3) Ability: Dragonite has most of the time a guaranteed DD while Salamence cannot for example come in late game and set up upon a non Stab Ice move.

Why exactly are you comparing Dragonite and Salamence? Both have completely different roles and as such can't be compared like this.

Dragonite is a bulky attacker. With Multiscale, it can set up on non-STAB Ice and then sweep, while also tanking hits. However, it doesn't possess the immediate sweeping power Salamence possesses as a result because without a DD boost, most of the meta outspeeds and breaks Multiscale. SR also means Multiscale is liable to break and as such can be exploited.

Salamence is a far more offense-oriented attacker. With Moxie, it can snowball boosts and clean up late game, while also possessing amazing mixed stats and able thus being able to run a very effective MixMence set. However, this comes at a price: while Dragonite can set up on non-STAB Ice moves and sweep without fear, Salamence cannot say the same.

Both have advantages and disadvantages and have completely different roles so comparing them is incorrect in my opinion. As such, both are extremely effective in the current meta and hence I would like to nominate Salamence for A+ rank. Salamence is current highly underrated and can easily sweep a team if not prepared for.

One of my nominations that was buried in the recent argument above was the nomination for Azelf to B- Rank.
Azelf is, as I said earlier, highly underrated with 125/125/115 attacking stat and a wide movepool that allows it to counter a lot of the mons in the current meta. In fact, Azelf is currently far more effective than Mew(which is in B+) as it has much higher speed and better attacking stats(125/125/115 vs 100/100/100) that gives it the edge. Azelf also possesses an immunity to ground-type attacks, which is crucial as it can come in on a Garchomp Earthquake and outspeed and OHKO with Ice Punch.

What do you think about this?

 

[Reymedy]

First, you state that Mence "doesn't" need any boost. Which is, absolutly wrong.
Mence doesn't outspeed anything really relevant over Dragonite. You're gonna get revenge killed by Terrak/Keldeo/Chomp/Lando... anyway.
And Nite doesn't need any boost by the way.

Mence doesn't deserve A+, not this GEN. It is outclassed by many Dragons. The only set filling a niche would probably be the Scarf Moxie set, but most of the time, this thing gets outsped by the common Scarfers which is really a big disadvantage.
You're talking about "immediate power". But CB Nite is pure immediate power, and it's actually HARD to take down. Specs Latios is pure immediate power and he provides the team with a blazing speed tier and an incredible number of resistances. And if you want mixed coverage, you got Kyurem-B owning a Bolt/Beam combo, formed by a Stab and a 130 base power move, like what else could you be asking for ? Mixed coverage is used to disrupt defensive cores, there is no Dragon filling this role better than Kyurem-B honnestly.
I don't want to do a thesis about comparing every single dragon to Mence, but there is a reason why this pokemon is not played in good teams. Stuff like Lati@s, Chomp, Nite and Kyurem-B offer everything the player already needs when he's looking for a Dragon (with the exception of rare cases, not making Mence A+ worthy). A is already a tier Mence should be really happy to belong to, given the low usage he finds in competitive teams.

Honnestly, if we ignore the C rank mess, I'd say that the upper tiers are decently accurate and the change I'd have done would be probably up to my personal liking.

 

[X5Dragon]

Second, Dragonite has a pitifully weak Fire Punch before the boost and is easily walled by any Steel-type in the rain such as Skarmory and Bronzong, both who can either phaze or hit it for the 2HKO

Pitfull? It OHKOs most Scizors outside of rain and even after +1 and under Rain it does anywhere from 70% to OHKO depending on the RNG and the nature/evs of Ferrothorn. Forrettress isn't far behind either. And unlike Salamence who lacks an arm, DD boosts fire pwnch and it feeds from Dragonite strongest stat and nature.

Dragonite's only good set is Choice Band now, and Multiscale is useless with Stealth Rock up. Dragon Dance Dragonite is easy to deal with.

Dragonite teams are usually quite skilled in how to deal with SR and often carry spinners and magic bouncers, that why he is used.

---

Since we are in the subject of underated Dragons, why not instead look at Kingdra? He gains access to 2.5 Mystic Waters and an Agility boost all in one turn, has good stats all around, and has access to both Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor, as well as Outrage and Waterfall depending on how you want to play him, which adds to his unpredictability. The meta is very favorable to him atm with 50 being weatherless and 25% being Rain which makes setting RD even more easier.

Water/Dragon is also one of the better Dual Stab move combos when it comes to being unresisted, and I know he usage is really low but give it a month and I'll promise you'll see more of him running around OU (hey, it wasn't me ;)). He is definitely not a B.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Mence doesn't outspeed anything really relevant over Dragonite. You're gonna get revenge killed by Terrak/Keldeo/Chomp/Lando... anyway.

This is just so... wrong. I don't like to nitpick, but this is completely false. Please just look at the OU statistics, it should be pretty apparent that that a good majority of OU Pokemon are slower than Salamence. Heck its not until you reach the 8th most used Pokemon Latios, that one finds a Pokemon that is naturally always faster.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, in the rest of your post, with Salamence having competition for a slot, but please don't twist and information to suit your case.

 

[vyomov]

Pitfull? It OHKOs most Scizors outside of rain

To be honest, it would be quite sad if it couldn't OHKO a 4x weak mon with a coverage move, so the fact that it can isn't really too much to boast about

And unlike Salamence who lacks an arm, DD boosts fire pwnch and it feeds from Dragonite strongest stat and nature.

Does Salamence really care?
192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 442-520 (125.56 - 147.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 248-296 (70.45 - 84.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 337-397 (104.33 - 122.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 259-306 (78.24 - 92.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't really feel there's much to dispute here: Dragonite has to take damage from Iron Barbs twice if it can't OHKO and that breaks Multiscale, making Dragonite inferior to Salamence IN THE SAME SITUATION.
Even worse, after Dragonite fails to KO with Fire Punch and takes Iron Barbs damage(forget about SR, even Iron Barbs), CB Ferro can OHKO with Gyro Ball.
Salamence faces none of this, as it can OHKO with Fire Blast. EVEN IF it switches into CB Gyro Ball, it can tank the hit(without SR included, but I didn't take SR into account for Dragonite either) and OHKO the next turn with Fire Blast.

Stuff like Lati@s, Chomp, Nite and Kyurem-B offer everything the player already needs when he's looking for a Dragon (with the exception of rare cases, not making Mence A+ worthy). A is already a tier Mence should be really happy to belong to, given the low usage he finds in competitive teams.

Do any of these offer Moxie sweeps that Salamence can offer? Can any of these late-game clean as well as Salamence?
Kyurem-B is weak as hell to fighting types and all the other types Ice is weak vs. Latios is easily pursuit trapped and walled after a DM. Dragonite can't even OHKO Ferrothorn with a 4x effective move, leaving it's multiscale broken and thus easily koed. Garchomp is easily revenge killed(for instance by ScarfMence) who can gain Moxie boosts and sweep.
Salamence is one of the underrated threats in the meta alongside SubDD Gyarados. Both should be in A+ Rank.

 

[Schpoonman]

Vyomov, that's some serious stat-twisting you've got there on Dragonite's part.
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 292-348 (83.19 - 99.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's how much an unboosted Fire Punch does to CB Ferrothorn. So Ferrothorn has a small chance (roughly 31%) to be OHKOd after Rocks. You're right, Dragonite doesn't come anywhere close to OHKOing standard Ferrothorn, but Ferrothorn also only manages a 2HKO on you with Gyro Ball on the defensive set.

You're also comparing one of most devastating turn one mixed attackers in the game to a set-up sweeper before it's set up.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

This is probably picking hairs, but why not Heatran for A+ rank? Heatran is a solid defensive Pokemon, earning a place on many balanced and defesnsive teams thanks to its great typing, stats, and fire typing, allowing it to scare out Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Forretress. Heatran is still a good Pokemon for offensive teams, with a little prediction Substitute Heatran can be a potent threat, or Balloon can be used to check a variety of Pokemon, ect. I mean its in the top 10 for a good reasons, it may not be an outright threat like some other A+ Pokemon, but its pretty damn solid.

 

[X5Dragon]

To be honest, it would be quite sad if it couldn't OHKO a 4x weak mon with a coverage move, so the fact that it can isn't really too much to boast about

We have differing opinions about what the word pitiful means. Mine says that if a coverage moves does it's job then it ain't.

Does Salamence really care?

192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 442-520 (125.56 - 147.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 248-296 (70.45 - 84.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 337-397 (104.33 - 122.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 259-306 (78.24 - 92.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Great, now post these stats under rain. The difference becomes obvious when Dragonite can still threaten with Fire Punch the same foes I've mentioned.

Edit: What Lord of Bays said, Dragonite set's up before he begins attacking taking advantage of his Lum (in case of an early T-wave or such) and MS, post these after +1 Atk.

 

[X5Dragon]

Dude, your giving a an example that's 4x weak which obviously OHKOes and/or comes close, so that was a pretty stupid statement, and yes, it's pitiful on 2x effective like Skarmory who can easily take a Fire Pucnch and phaze it out.

Why do you think Dragonite runs Fire Punch and not for example Super Power, Thunder Punch/T-Bolt, Earth Quake, etc.? It's because he uses it to get rid of Scizors, Fortresses and Ferrothorns, the rest is taken care of by ES or Outrage. So saying that his coverage move does it's exact job isn't stupid, it's a fact.

Also, DD Nite is a set up mon, so either you post stats after at least one boost, or compare him with Sally using his CB set, in which you also have to take into factor the +1 ATK.

Edit: Rain is also so prevalent and Salamence can actually take advantage of it, and don't get me started about Dragonite's Waterfall.

Dragonite can continue to boost his attack under rain and that includes Fire Punch, Salamence can't. Hence the rain comment.

=======

There are many ways to promote Salamence's viability and image in OU, comparing him to D-Nite's DD and CB sets isn't one of them. Also I'm interested in hearing what other players think about upgrading Kingdra from B...

 

[Reymedy]

Okay, I knew by posting here that I would get contradicted by someone, and some have really bad posting habbits like "hey I'm gonna contradict you just for the sake of arguing".
So, this will be my last post on this point to not be toxic to the thread (yes seriously, those two pages of arguements on the same thing are toxic in my opinion).

I'm not supporting Salamence for A+ rank, but I disagree with you. For one, Salamence outpaces more threats before the Dragon Dance boost, such as Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Lucario, Gliscor, Gyarados, and many other thing.

Yes sure, many many many other things I guess.
And who cares about the gap, Nite will get the boost thanks to Multiscale, Mence will die lalalala.

Second, Dragonite has a pitifully weak Fire Punch before the boost and is easily walled by any Steel-type in the rain such as Skarmory and Bronzong, both who can either phaze or hit it for the 2HKO.

Stop playing with words, he's not walled by "ANY". His physical set is walled by these particular steel types. PERIOD. And guess, what, it's the same shit for Mence, Bronzong under Rain with HP Ice/GyroBall will kill it, and Skarm won't get hurt (don't even come with a "yes but Mence now has HPump and kill both !").

Salamence is not outclassed by Kyurem-B running Mixed sets. First of all, Kyurem-B has to watch for its bad defensive typing, and all Salamence has to worry is its frailty, and MixMence run Intimidate, so thats not a problem. Salamence also doesn't have some crap movepool like Kyurem-B letting it take down more threats. the higher speed is also a huge boon. Now, I'ma go down through your points.

Kyu typing isn't that bad, it has a lot of physical weaknesses, but a lot of special resistances. Kyu-B doesn't have a crappy movepool when it comes to rape defensive teams, don't try to copy/paste what you read somewhere else. Fusion Bolt + Ice Beam + Earth Power is all it takes and there is no pokemon in a defensive team that won't be 2HKO'd by that.
The speed isn't a huge boon, no it isn't. You would have been in DPP, it would have been the case, not in BW. The 100 speed tier isn't anymore what it used to be. Read what I wrote instead of taking what you prefer. Keldeo will revenge kill you, Lati@s will rk you, Terrak will rk you, Chomp will rk you, Lando will rk you.; Thundy will rk you.. (and those are way more played than Kyurem, Lucario...).
Anyway, this was about beating defensive teams thanks to mixed sets (offensive teams will just outspeed and kill Mence in one blow) and sorry, Kyurem-B is better in this regard, without any doubt. I've seen Stall player complaining about Kyurem-B, Landorus and Thundurus. Bring me a competitive Stall player complaining about MixMence. I'm waiting.

"The only set filling a niche would probably be the Scarf Moxie set, but most of the time, this thing gets outsped by the common Scarfers which is really a big disadvantage."

Salamence runs a good MixMence set, as well as Dragon Dance set. Salamence also beats other common Choice Scarf users below 100 Spe, and speed creep scarfers who only want to hit 100, and noone runs Adamant on DD Salamence, neither do I, because Dragon Dance gives you enough power to kill somthing, and sweep using multiple Moxie boosts. Choice Scarf Salamence is a good Pokemon this generation, and I think you've never used one, and is guessing its viability.

Yes off course, MixMence is incredibly good in this meta, we all know that. DD Mence also, we all know that.
"common Choice Scarf users below 100 speed"... such as the insane Haxorus Scarf, the annoying Landorus-T scarf, the trendy Rotom-W Scarf AND MANY MANY OTHERS.
And who are you to say that I never used this pokemon, that my jugement is "bad". Like wow, you're not making any relevant point ABOUT Mence in a damn long post and you're questioning my jugement on it for god knows which reason. I said it was decent, and it is decent. I don't wanne be the dick saying "it's all cool, but no one plays it in competition and in the upper ladder" however : honnesly, it's all cool but no one really plays it in competition and in the upper ladder (or at least not THAT much).

"Specs Latios is pure immediate power and he provides the team with a blazing speed tier and an incredible number of resistances"

Yea, and its complete set-up bait afterwards to Pokemon like Volcarona, which Choice Scarf Salamence doesn't have to worry about.

Okay, who cares ?
You want me to name the INSAME AMOUNT of stuff that Mence can't take while Latios does ? No fuck, why would I do it ? We're talking about Mence viability and you're talking about Latios vialibity. I'm don't want to play that endless theorymon game where you talk about anything even if it's not relevant.
If you want to defend Mence, go ahead, but don't say "Latios is Volcarona bait" because - everybody knows it; -it is not even relevant. Guess what, Nite is a better check to Volcarona than Mence due to his bulk + Multiscale ! Boom.

"And if you want mixed coverage, you got Kyurem-B owning a Bolt/Beam combo, formed by a Stab and a 130 base power move, like what else could you be asking for ? Mixed coverage is used to disrupt defensive cores, there is no Dragon filling this role better than Kyurem-B honnestly."

Salamence doesn't have a crap movepool, has much better typing, has Intimidate, and can takes down everything Kyurem-B can take down, and more. And Salamence can actually forgo Roost since it doesn't have crap coverage.

No one said that Mence has a crappy movepool.
No one plays Intimidate Mence, are you getting out of arguements already ?
Not it doesn't take down everything that Kyu takes down. You were talking about Bronzong and Skarm under Rain, guess what, Kyu fucks them up BOTH. Not Mence, nana.
Let's take an example, when I think about a good mixed tank, I think about Hippowdon. Your Mence won't be doing anything to my Hippow (no, you don't have HPump) however a Kyurem-B.. that's another story. Kyurem-B got a MIXED BOLT/BEAM COMBO, I don't care the analysis, I don't care what you've read somewhere : this is incredible in terms of movepool because that's all a pokemon needs to screw anything defensive team (now add Earth Power to the mix).

"Stuff like Lati@s, Chomp, Nite and Kyurem-B offer everything the player already needs when he's looking for a Dragon (with the exception of rare cases, not making Mence A+ worthy). A is already a tier Mence should be really happy to belong to, given the low usage he finds in competitive teams."

Latios is Pursuit weak, complete set-up bait after the Draco Meteor. Garchomp is easily revenge-killed, Dragonite's only good set is Choice Band now, and Multiscale is useless with Stealth Rock up. Dragon Dance Dragonite is easy to deal with. I already mentioned Kyurem-B.

So as I said, -everybody knows that, -it's not even relevant.
And rofl @ Chomp being easy to revenge kill. Write me an essay on how Chomp is easier to revenge kill than Mence, what the hell is that flawed statement doing here ?
Chomp is faster (this 3 speed gap is MASSEVELY MORE RELEVANT than the speed gap between Nite and Mence) , bulkier, his typing is better defensively speaking (they are both *4 to Ice anyway, but at least you resist Rock => Terrak, Elec => Thundy).
"DD Nite is easy to deal with" : STOP, stop right now stating things like they were obvious. DD Nite isn't easy to deal with. It is not, or at least prove me wrong, don't throw statements like that, it's toxic to the discussion. That thing got a free DD with MultiScale, what Mence will never have (because it just dies, welcome to BW).

"Mence doesn't deserve A+, not this GEN. It is outclassed by many Dragons."

Nope. If your looking at the definition, see Haxorus (if Kyurem-B leaves OU, it won't be)

As said, I don't see the point reading analysis and copying stuff here. I can speak with my own experience, about the ladder, about the competition. Even if I look arrogant here.
I've made like... 3 suspect tests with DD Nite, I've done 2 of my 3 wins in wcop thanks to CB Nite. So saying stuff like "Nite is easy to deal with" with no explanation is a massiv joke and I think you're dead wrong.

Okay and finally, if you don't post to argue about Mence rank then WHY are you posting already ?
Post it in my inbox, and I'll happily answer you in that long essay form you seem to love (or maybe ifgnore it, if I feel like you're just pulling my legs with this kind of posts).
Don't argue just for the sake of it please (that's just what I did by answering here, and that's just so toxic to the thread in my opinion).

 

[MCBarrett]

@Vertex 1. MixMence does have counters because MixMence does not run Fire Blast and Hydro Pump together. It just doesn't.
2. The amount of counters doesn't matter anyways because Salamence is just revenge killed much much easier than Dragonite is. Between access to Extremespeed to take out weakened Ice Shard users and Multiscale to take a hit from Scarfed Latios Dragonite just has a huge advantage in this regard.
3. While Jellicent is a great pokemon, there are many things that can handle it. Starmie 2hko's with LO Thunderbolt, Scarf Tyranitar even has a near 100% chance to 2hko if burned after one hit, assuming Jellicent took Hazard Damage. So spinning really should not be an issue for a skilled player.
4. Dragonite can reactivate Multiscale through Roost, or Leftovers if there is sand.
5. Dragonite is much more versatile, being able to run all out Defensive sets with SubRoost, T-Wave and Dragon Tail. All-out Special Attacking sets in the rain, bulky DD sets, and the obvious CB and Offensive DD sets that work very well.

The only thing I will give Salamence over Dragonite is as a late-game Sweeper with Choice Scarf and Moxie. Other than that Dragonite is either on the same level, or outclasses Salamence due to the aforementioned points.