Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Chou Toshio]

Machamp is simply a menace to a lot of teams. I ran a team with TTar, Keldeo, Terrakion, Celebi, Lando-I, and Foretress and basically I was insanely Machamp weak.

Machamp's lead set was stupidly dominant in DPP partially because literally nothing could OHKO it-- pokes like ZAM or Azelf would NEED LO to do it-- something they couldn't use because they needed sash to be effective as leads. Honestly, if there was no team preview I think champ would still be OU. That lead set can fuck an unprepared team even with preview.

 

[PDC]

Machamp is definitely a pretty unexpected Pokemon, and considering how dangerous confusion when paired with a pretty strong move is, you can definitely see the appeal Machamp has. I personally have never been destroyed by Machamp this Gen, but that's probably because I pretty much never faced one in the OU tier. LeadChamp in Gen 4 was almost unbeatable to some point. people started running CBZelf, Psychic LO Starmie and all other types of stuff to beat it. I personally thought Machamp would be very great in this metagame, but that is hardly the case. While it does have some good surprise and hax element, Machamp is just not what it used to be. Dynamic Punch's limited use is also hindering, and means it can't really "spam" it to full effectiveness. Its pretty good at what it does, but what it does is really outclassed by other Pokemon. It really only has one niche, and that's acceptable bulk paired with Substitute + Confusion with Dynamic Punch. It is overshadowed as a sweeper and Choice Bander by Terrakion and Breloom, which both overpower it one way or another, and Machamp doesn't really have any way to differentiate itself from the other these two Pokemon. Machamp can be a nice surprise and be really useful when paired with things like Paralysis, but overall I just don't think it has anything that substantially stands out and makes it a better Pokemon. I feel it does belong in D Rank pefectly, as it does have a small niche, but it just doesn't really "work" anywhere else.

 

[G-Von]

Nice argument bro, but that confusion + hit hard is a niche, and that's what gives it a placement in D-Rank. I was mainly talking about the Substitute set, not the the All-Out Lead Set.

.....and I agree that it does have a niche, regardless of what set it is running. I was speaking on Machamp in general, not just one set. Do you know what you were trying to prove because I can't tell if you're for or against Machamp being placed in D-rank based on your two posts.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with PDC. Honestly, Machamp is not the best at anything but a lead, and is completely outclassed in any of the more "standard" roles for an offensive fighting type (mid-game wall breaker, setup sweeper, revenge killer, late-game "cleaner"-- it can't do any of these roles as well as other Fighting types).

As a lead, it can guarantee you start the match 6 v. 5, or 6 v. 4+2 badly injured against a lot of teams. That being said, you got to ask yourself how useful is a 40% Machamp in the mid and late games (since Machamp usually takes something out at the cost of 40%+ of its health)? At 100% he's bulky enough and powerful enough to beat a tremendous variety of foes 1 on 1. At 40%, he's too slow and frail to get off a Dynamic Punch against the majority of the meta's threats. So, even if you start the match 6 v. 5, your 40% Machamp might not net you any more advantage other than being death fodder.

Unlike Custap Skarm/Forry or weather starters, Machamp doesn't push the specific agenda of a team. Generally speaking, the 6 mons of a BW teams are a tightly nit combination of defensive synergy and coordinated team plan. Machamp doesn't fit into any of that. His best role is to come out, fuck up 1 or two enemies before going out. This can be a devastating result for defensive teams that rely on all 6 members, but for most offensive teams it's not a big deal-- especially since unlike a trapper, Machamp really isn't at liberty to pick which enemy he takes out.

Then there are the 20%+ of games where Machamp can't even lead off-- when you see Alakazam, Tornadus, or Latios in the team preview. Then the whole match you're hard pressed to even find an opportunity to use Machamp in a way that highlights its strengths.

A Pokemon that doesn't bring much defensive synergy, needs to be at 100% health to really be effective, and is out classed in traditional offensive roles (outside of lead position)-- it's really hard pressed to find a spot on teams.

D Rank is good. It has one small role, and does it really well-- but just the way the metagame is put together, it's not a role that most teams will want to fill.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Machamp is C-rank worthy. I find it more useful than trash like Togekiss and Donphan. DynamicPunch is a threat to every non-Ghost-types or Lum Berry mons and Machamp can usually survive a hit. It also has Payback to fuck with some Psychic-types (an example: it can even survive a Sash's Alakazam's Psyshock 94.25% of the time, bring it down to the sash, and then revenge kill with Bullet Punch. Yes, Bullet Punch Machamp is very usable.) However, there's basically no reason you should use Machamp other than an attacking lead, since Terrakion, Breloom, Mienshao and Keldeo exist for a reason.

 

[Oddish is the best]

I suggest moving Donphan from C to D.

Donphan just really isn't good at all. I try to be open minded about all the pokemon in the OU tier but Donphan (Along with Metagross) is just a pokemon I can't place on any team. As a bulky ground it is VASTLY outclassed by Hippowdon and Gliscor as well as Landorus-T. As a rapid spinner, it is also VASTLY outclassed by Starmie,Tentacruel, and Forretress. In addition to this, Forre and Tentacruel can lay down hazards while Starmie has better coverage and better speed to be a better offensive spinner. In Donphan's 2 main roles I just thought of 3 pokemon that outclass it and I didn't even mention magic bouncers. The only reason I've even considered using it is for spinning for sun teams but even then I would rather use something like Xatu or Espeon. Donphan also has no special bulk at all and has no hope of getting by Gengar or Jellicent. Basically, while Donphan is a cool pokemon, it is outclassed at anything it tries to do in OU and doesn't really have a place in the metagame at all. Donphan is DEFINITION of a D rank pokemon with a small niche in spinning for some sun teams but most of the time isn't worth the trouble.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

 

[PDC]

Donphan fits pretty well in C Rank to be honest. Donphan may not be the best offensive or defensive spinner in the current metagame, but it does have a few niches that are going for it. It is decently strong and physically bulky, and Ice Shard allows it to revenge Dragons while spinning at the same time, being a very good matchup against things like LeadChomp. It also is a pretty good check to things like Terrakion and Tyranitar. Although I admit Donphan may seem pretty bad, it does have some advantages and uses that are unique to it. It also does a pretty cool job in setting up Stealth Rock and using Head Smash to hit incoming Anti-Spinners like Gengar pretty hard, which is often unexpected.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Everyone underestimates Donphan. :/ Why? It honestly can be a pretty troublesome opponent. It plays a solid role on sun teams as a check to major Sand Pokemon, and it's cool that it can beat Foretress 1 on 1 and hammer Gengar/Jelli Switch-ins if it's packing the right coverage move. The ability to be a fail safe against heavily weakened Dragons and Flying-types is also good.

C is a good spot for Dophan, who honestly does earn his spot in OU better than many others. I mean, it ACTUALLY HAS A USEFUL NICHE, unlike Pokemon like Metagross or Vaporeon.

 

[Gary]

I'm starting to think that the D-Rank definition should be rewritten to say, this:

Reserved for Pokemon who have a VERY small niche in the current OU metagame, and have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

People seem to be misinterpreting the phrase "small niche". Donphan's niche may be small, but it definitely warrants him a spot in C-rank. As Chou Toshio and PDC both mentioned, Donphan isn't completely useless outside of Rapid Spinning on a sun team. Aside from Forretress, it's the only viable Rapid Spinner in OU that has access to both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, which automatically gives it two significant roles on any team. Second of all, it actually has a cool movepool that can be tailored to beat certain Pokemon like Gengar and Jellicent. No one ever uses Head Smash, but it can OHKO Gengar. Ice Shard is weak coming from Donphan and not getting STAB, but it still keeps Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, and Landorus-T from setting up on him. It has extremely useful resistances and stellar physical defense. So no, Donphan is not as shitty as people are making him out to be. He's better then fucking Hitmontop, who's in D-rank, and THAT is a perfect example of a really niche Pokemon.

 

[Vemane]

Yeah, donphan is certainly not "awful." There are better pokemon, yes, hence the term niche. As mentioned above, donphan has both rocks and rapid spin, good physical bulk, ice shard, and sturdy (which is a complete ass, especially since rocks are recovered off after one turn by lefties)

 

[GCSChris]

Donphan at least has niche as a rapid spinner on sun. It's definitely C-rank material

 

[Oddish is the best]

I'm starting to think that the D-Rank definition should be rewritten to say, this:

Reserved for Pokemon who have a VERY small niche in the current OU metagame, and have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

People seem to be misinterpreting the phrase "small niche". Donphan's niche may be small, but it definitely warrants him a spot in C-rank. As Chou Toshio and PDC both mentioned, Donphan isn't completely useless outside of Rapid Spinning on a sun team. Aside from Forretress, it's the only viable Rapid Spinner in OU that has access to both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, which automatically gives it two significant roles on any team. Second of all, it actually has a cool movepool that can be tailored to beat certain Pokemon like Gengar and Jellicent. No one ever uses Head Smash, but it can OHKO Gengar. Ice Shard is weak coming from Donphan and not getting STAB, but it still keeps Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, and Landorus-T from setting up on him. It has extremely useful resistances and stellar physical defense. So no, Donphan is not as shitty as people are making him out to be. He's better then fucking Hitmontop, who's in D-rank, and THAT is a perfect example of a really niche Pokemon.

Oops my bad I think changing the D rank definition would be nice as small is kinda more C rank I guess.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Oh also I can't seem to find Tangrowth on the list. Has it not been placed yet?

 

[Magcargo]

I'm going to make a small list of things that need to be changed after Landorus-I's ban.

Bronzong --> Low B-Rank: Still counters Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus-T, but its main draw was countering Landorus-I, which is banned.

Zapdos --> Low B-Rank: Same deal as Bronzong. It still beats SD Scizor and Breloom, but its main niche was countering Landorus-I, which is banned.

Thundurus-T --> High A-Rank: One of the best sweepers in the metagame now that Landorus-I is gone. The Double Booster set destroys Stall and does pretty well against offense thanks to its surprisingly decent bulk. Its other sets also have very unique attributes that make it appealing to good players. Not as good as Landorus-I, but very good nonetheless.

There are a few that I missed, but those are the main changes that should occur.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree that Bronzong needs a drop. It was absolutely incredible in a metagame with Lando-I, Torn-T, and a revival of Mamoswine; but without those 2 genies around it has lost a lot of its appeal (and Mamoswine is taking a small hit in part because of those guys getting banned).

Back at Bronzong-- most teams don't want a Latios check that is useless set up bait against Latias... :/
If I am putting a hard answer to Latios in, I don't want to have to make a DIFFERENT one for Latias. :(

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to motion for Toxicroak to move to A-Rank.
With Keldeo running around the whole tier, Toxicroak is one of the best counters to it, as it not only beats Keldeo but can also beat out Tyranitar who usually pursuit traps most of Keldeo's counters.
Toxicroak is also incredibly underrated as a rain sweeper, with reliable recovery, decent bulk and good coverage.
Thoughts?

 

[Homeslice]

I can't agree with Toxicroak being moved up at all. I've used him, and while he actually is pretty versatile at what he can do, he isn't exactly dominant at anything he does. I personally like to think of him as a rain-tailored Lucario- he can run both physical and specially based boosting sets, but outside of rain he's god awful and the fact that sun is just as threatening as rain doesn't help him. It also adds another weakness but I guess water immunity outweighs that. My main point here is that while he has a decent amount of "weak" (for lack of a better term, small isnt what I wanted here) niches, he's not the mon I go to first when I want a Keldeo counter (Jellicent/Celebi) or a rain sweeper (Keldeo/Starmie/Thundurus-T).
Also if I remember correctly his bulk really isn't that good and just is bolstered by the fact he's recovering 18% a turn in rain with lefties
He's fine where he is and should Keldeo get banned we could take a look at him again because he could go either way afterwards (people use him as new fighting type in rain or people think he's useless now that he isn't countering a top threat)

 

[asbdsp]

Am I just crazy, or are some of the things that are most violently protested as being "bad" or "overrated" in OU (Donphan, Infernape), simply things that UU players covet?

I.e. Donphan is a sun staple for the reasons already mentioned on this page. Seeing it being bashed as garbage in different places in the thread genuinely confuses me. :confused:

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

In part it has to do with those Pokemon being commonly found on poor Pokemon teams, being used by mediocre players. One can only face your standard poor sun team so many times before one starts to think "man Donphan is trash" at some level, Infernape shares the same song, although it is placed on poor teams because it is 'cool.'

Although this is highly dependent on how good the actual Pokemon is, I haven't seen many people here complain about Alakzam, despite a lot of bad players using it.

 

[asbdsp]

I can see where you're coming from, and it seems like sun is a rather "fragile" boom or bust playstyle anyway. But I've never really thought that it's down to Donphan being a poor support spinner. I'm not sure how who's played with or against sun could really think that.

I'd almost compare it to Forretress, in that Forretress has a simple support role (spin, tank physical attacks and hopefully set up spikes) and even if you can't really ask it to do much else what it does do can be very important to the team.

 

[TCTphantom]

The S rank looks kinda thin, any thoughts on anything moving up? I could see the KyuBe and Tyranitar moving up at the moment.

Kyurem B: Much has been said about the KyuBe. Some think he is a sleeping giant, able to terrorize the OU metagame with his Sub and Mixed sets. Others think he is simply too easy to kill thanks to his typing and speed. However, KyuBe is far more than meets the eye. KyuBe can run several sets, with each one guaranteeing it a kill each match. The power of a Choice Band set is Outrageous. Pun aside, nothing can take a hit from KyuBe without a Steel typing on hand. Scarf trades some of that raw power for much needed speed, allowing it to outspeed unboosted threats to it such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and Dragons. With Sub, its super hard to wear him down, especially given if he subs on a switch, something will die to a good KyuBe. The mixed set is just total destruction, ensuring no threat can switch in, as it can 2HKO everything. Not to mention, it has enourmous bulk, to the point of barely outshining Ferrothorn.

Tyranitar: Out of all S Rank proposals, Tyranitar is not only one of the most thought of, but also the most controversial. While its weaknesses, especially to Fighting and Water, are a pain, the support and power TTar brings is phenomenal. Sand Stream allows useful chip damage on several pokes, and cancels out leftovers. This is so helpful for whittling down an opposing tank, or dare i say, a wall that is not a Steel of Hippo. Stealth Rocks may be largely distributed, but they tend to be best on tanks like TTar. The coup de'tat is Pursuit trapping, eliminating annoying Psychics and Ghosts, with Lati@s and Celebi coming to mind. TTar also has a great movepool to smash anything incoming onto him, being able to pull out moves like Fire Blast, Ice Beam, or Thunderbolt/Punch, and shows his offensive pwers by being able to go on either spectrum, but is best on Physical or both...

Thoughts?

 

[Hot N Cold]

I think that Garchomp and Jirachi are S-material imo

Both are super versatility and can fit well on almost every team and not depending about a weather. Both can setupp Stealth Rock something mandatory in a team, are very good choice scarf users, both resist the most common hazard in the game: Stealth Rock, are extremely hard to counter w/o know the exact set so are pretty effective lures and can work very well since are unpredictable and with a super potencial, when i think in both of them they put most resistances on your team than weakness in terms of utility / offense / checking or countering another threats, just top mon imo.

 

[PDC]

Garchomp I don't exactly agree with, but I do think it is a very good Pokemon and would like to see the discussion that comes from it, so I guess i'll leave it for the time.

Jirachi has been nominated for S Rank multiple times iirc, and although it is an amazing and versatile Pokemon who can shift from a Specially Defensive wall to a a Offensive Calm Minder, lure, or Choice Scarfer. I think Jirachi can put a lot of sets to full effectiveness such as a offensive Calm Minder with Grass Knot, Hidden Power Ground, and Icy Wind to lure in and take out its own counters, along with its partners. It is certainly a Pokemon who's role keeps changing over and over again as we continue. But do I think it is really that good for a Rank in S? No. It can wall a decent amount of the metagame, especially special dragons like Lati@s, Reuniclus, Alakazam, and Gengar (those without WoW). But, I feel that it definitely has just complete and utter downfalls. It also loses to quite a lot of special attackers in the metagame which are becoming increasingly common. I feel if anything Specially Defensive Jirachi at the moment is more like a punching bag, it can be stuck on a lot of teams and simply just take 1 or 2 hits of basically anything, live, and hopefully hax out its enemy with a paralysis or flinch. It gets worn down relatively fast and sometimes I feel it can be just completely worthless. Choice Scarfer is a great set and fits on basically all types of teams, especially DragMag and Sand. Some lure Jirachi sets are basically for the sake of clutch, as sometimes they can honestly be completely worthless. Calm Mind defensive or SubCM sets are just not as good anymore (although Wish CM is pretty cool on Rain with TSpikes), and don't find the time to set up too often anymore. It can't really "sweep" or "wall" a large part of the metagame. In fact, I think the only real time when Jirachi damages teams very badly is with a lure set with Calm Mind, Shuca Berry, or Expert Belt. And usually, that is for luring counters to it / its partners. Do I think it is a great Pokemon? Yes, but I don't believe it is worthy of S Rank.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I think the only time Jirachi was suitable for S-rank was during the Tornadus-T era. It was basically needed on every team to counter Tornadus-T, as well as setting up the SubCM set on Ferrothorn's. Do I think it's S rank now? No. It's a damn good Pokemon, extremely versatile, but not S rank.

 

[TCTphantom]

Garchomp I don't exactly agree with, but I do think it is a very good Pokemon and would like to see the discussion that comes from it, so I guess i'll leave it for the time.

But do I think it is really that good for a Rank in S? No. It can wall a decent amount of the metagame, especially special dragons like Lati@s, Reuniclus, Alakazam, and Gengar (those without WoW). But, I feel that it definitely has just complete and utter downfalls. It also loses to quite a lot of special attackers in the metagame which are becoming increasingly common. .

Playing devil's advocate here, but besides Keldeo, can you name these attackers? Showing calcs might help em too.