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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.
The A- Rank is also occupied by a grand total of 2 pokemon. :/
I agree with this, I love Zapdos and Amoonguss for example, but I don't think they are B tier at all. I think that C tier should have useful niche Pokemon, and a bunch of C tier pokemon should be knocked down to D teir, as they IMO are extremely niche Pokemon, used on very specialized teams.
But these Pokemon should really be staples. Zapdos is a stall staple due to its ability to reliably beat Landorus. Amoonguss is again a really great pokemon due to its ability to counter Keldeo and its access to Spore AND Regenerator (amazing). I don't think Pokemon should be lowered because they are rarely seen, as this is a viability thread. Zapdos and Amoonguss are very viable Pokemon. That being said, I think C Rank could do with a cleanup. Lots of these pokemon aren't really viable at all, they just have a very slim niche.
Zapdos and Amoongus are not that great examples because they really should see more use-- but I'd imagine them more as B- pokes.
However, pokes like Ditto, Mew, Feraligatr, Weavile, Darmanitan, Victini, and Wobb are like the definition of rarely used niche. Bronzong was put in B back when Tornadus-T was in the metagame; and while he still checks a lot of good stuff (like Mamoswine and Tornadus), a counter to Latios that is setup bait for Latias is a major flaw. I am not sure why Chansey and Blissey got moved up.
I'm not saying that Pokemon like Bronzong, Weavile, or Roserade aren't respectable-- but I am saying that the ranking would be better balanced and make more sense if C Rank itself was more respectable (and thus B Rank held to a higher standard as well).
Yes... except the players I listed don't use gimmick teams. Unless tyranitar/keldeo/garchomp/rotom wash/jirachi/landorus I became one. Ben gay just came back, and he's already in the top. When a player stick with a set of pokemons, and with those pokemons, is able to constantly reach the top on the ladder, it does say a lot about those pokemons viability.
"Vaporeon also doesn't have the useful resistances other bulky Waters have. Rotom-Wash has a Flying resist and Ground immunity; Jellicent and Tentacruel takes Bug and Fighting attacks; Gastrodon has an immunity to Electric"
I don't think this argument should really be used. Those resist also come with drawback.
Jellicent is weak against dark and ghost. Tentacruel can't take earthquake or psychic. Gastrodon has 4x weakness against grass.
The only pokemon who really stand out with his resistance is rotom wash, but still, vaporeon and rotom wash both play completly different role.
"Wish, Roar, and Heal Bell are notable advantages, but obviously cannot fit all of them into a single set and faces competition with Chansey anyway."
You made a counter argument to your own "argument above". You said vaporeon doesn't have useful resistance. Chansey has none, and is weak against combat, doesn't have leftover. (Try using chansey against a sandstorm team, and A DECENT ONE.) See where I'm getting at?
"Vaporeon itself offers synergy issues when trying to utilise Hydration, since it already clashes weaknesses to Politoed, whereas other Rain abusers in Tornadus-I, Jolteon or Thundurus-T can at least cover a weakness or two, while Vaporeon adds almost nothing in terms of defensive synergy. Hydration Vaporeon does a good job at sitting there and take hits, but I often ask myself if there is a better way to use the Rain while not being completely helpless against most of what opposing Rain has to offer in Ferrothorn, Taunt Jellicent and Thunder abusers, and not be completely neutered against other weather. Other bulky Waters can still do their thing while usually not giving a damn about the weather change (it's more the boost opponents get that they are worried about), but Vaporeon loses its reliable recovery, which is a serious issue as that is the biggest thing Vaporeon has going for it."
Hydration vaporeon sucks. Try using water absorb wish support vaporeon outside of rain team. And I really do mean it, try IT! And then come back with some relevant point that will make sense. If you want to talk about a pokemon viability, use it's best set.
Note: !! At this point all the comments are kicking a dead horse and repeating things said about thirdy times already. Vaporeon doesn't deserve B rank based on my experience and the players I spectated. But if you feel that it should stay C rank for whatever reason. So be it. I don't really care anymore. This ou ranking is already so flawed. The only relevant rank I agree with is A+ and S anyway. I'm not coming back to this meaningless thread that even OU top players don't even visit. I'm done.
Ill make some nominations that i feel are deserving:
Tornadus B+->A: For all the reason that were said in the last few pages. Hurricane/Focus Blast provides excellent unresisted coverage and hit hard coming off 125 sp atk, u-turn maintain momentum for your team and combined with dugtrio can eliminate jirachi, prankster rain dance/tailwind/taunt makes it a great supporter that can still maintain a huge offensive presence.
Stoutland B->B+: An excellente revenge killer for sand teams with great bulk and
coverage. Its speed under sandstorm allows it to revenge kill even scarfers (except terrakion/keldeo/latios).
Breloom A->A+: Spore, 130 atk, technician stab bullet seed and mach punch, swords dance. Not much need to be said. Breloom can effectively remove from play one pokemon on your opponent team, cripple another then switch out and revenge kill shit midgame with mach punch. Late game when its counters are removed (and there arent many) it can just setup swords dance and destroy everything. A top tier threat that should never be understimated. If your team lacks a safe switch in for this thing youre going to have a hard time.
Gyarados A-->A: Great bulk, key resistances to bug, fighting, steel, water and an immunity to ground, moxie, dragon dance, water stab. All of these features combined make gyarados one of the best setup sweepers in the game. It can setup on the likes of sp def jirachi, scizor, forretress, tentacruel, gastrodon, lucario, LANDORUS, some KELDEO among others and wreck havoc after just one dragon dance. Moxie only makes it better to ensure the opponent cant afford to sack anything to bring a revenge killer safely.
Reuniclus B->A-: It can still wreck havoc. The trick room set is nearly impossible to wall, forcing your opponent to repeatdly switch out in order to stall the turns. Combine this with hazards support and reuniclus can easily wear down the opponent team. Magic guard allows it to come in at anytime and do it all over again making it a literal nightmare for any team that lacks sp def jirachi. The calm mind set is nearly impossible to stop if you lack hydreigon or ttar or something ridiculous strong like band kyurem b. Once it gets going you will wish you had a solid answer for it.
I'm supporting SSB on Breloom to A+
Breloom has a great base 130 atk, and has access to one of the greatest moves in Pokemon, the 100% accurate sleep move Spore. Spore basically takes out a Pokemon from the game, as with the new sleep mechanics, the sleep clock starts over after the Pokemon which is sleeping switches out, and you can't afford to stay in and waste 2-3 turns in this faced pass metagame.
Breloom is also pretty diverse. It can run a few sets pretty effectively. First is the SD set, which allows to sweep team pretty easily once it's counters have been eliminated. Then there's the Banded set, forcing switches with it's extremely powerful Low Sweep. The idea of the set is to lower the speed of the Pokemon that switches into Breloom (usually Lati@s), in which Jolly Breloom can out speed after wards. And finally, there's the Focus Punch set, which I believe is the most devastating. The idea is you come in on something slower than you, Spore it, and Focus Punch the incoming Pokemon. This is such an amazing wall breaker, and often allows other Pokemon with similar counters to sweep easily.
Anyway, this is getting a bit lengthy. Overall, Breloom's typing, 2 great abilities, and Spore should be enough to push it into A+.
Sorry if this post is worded a bit weirdly, it's 2am here in England atm.
Alright, time to weigh in on some noms.
For the most part, Tornadus is still a threat. That hasn't changed. It does belong in the A tier simply because of how good it actually is. Not a single thing can take a Hurricane repeatedly and continue to wall Tornadus well unless you are either Specially Defensive Jirachi or the pink blobs. If you really look at how badly Tornadus tears up some team nowadays you will easily see why it still deserves a high ranking. Great partner for Rain, and it actually does have quite a few unique uses in today's metagame outside of being just a Hurricane spammer. Definitely a huge asset to Rain teams due to the momentum it gains and the power it has from a STAB Hurricane. Not as cool as Moltres, but definitely high up their.
Stoutland is still a pretty cool Pokemon, no doubt about that. B+ is probably as high as it deserves to go, but because of how it is a fast and powerful miniature Excadrill and amazing Pursuiter, especially for stall as demonstrated by Meru's recent team. B+ is not too high for it, as it is simply an underratted amazing Pokemon. But there is no doubt in my mind that Stoutland does have quite a bit of flaws. It should probably stay in B for the moment though, just because of the prevalence of Breloom and how overall I just don't feel it deserves anything higher, at least at the moment. It is a good Pokemon, but Stoutland does have quite a lot of glaring flaws. But for a NU Pokemon, it sure as hell is a pretty solid choice for OU teams.
Breloom is a great Pokemon with that 100% accurate Spore and strong priority and sweeping abilities, but I feel that it just isn't worth placing in A+ rank. A is a perfect place for it to be, and although it can destroy some rain stall teams and do a lot of damage to sand stall, it just isn't to amazing. For the most part Breloom is a bit overhyped as a technician user. To be honest I think it's best set right now actually is either the Focus Sash Anti-Lead or SubPunch, as Bulk Up just doesn't work too well at all in this metagame, and standard SD Loom I just don't feel function as well as it previously did. A Rank is perfect for it, as it is certainly an amazing Pokemon, just nothing overly special. It gets stopped easier than you think, and in no way is it some sort of unstoppable force, at least for the most part. Definitely good, but nothing worth ranking higher than it is now.
Gyarados is definitely underrated at the moment. I liked it a lot during early BW2, but after awhile it just seemed a bit lackluster. But now I feel Gyarados is back in full swing, I like it. It's SubDD set is definitely something to look out for, nothing like it in the metagame. SubDDNite is pretty cool, but it just gets revenged a bit easier in this metagame. Gyarados is definitely something cool at the time, and it does need a buff in the viability ranking list. It is on par with a lot of the hotter sweepers right now. Acting as a great check to Breloom, ParaRachi, Scizor, Keldeo, and Landorus-I. Whether it be bulky SleepTalk or SubDD, it is a great Pokemon.
Reuniclus shaped the metagame from the second it was recognized. Trick Room is by far the best set it has currently, it can destroy a lot more than you think. Combinations of CBTar + Trick Room HP Fire Reuniclus were pretty common, just because of how well they work. Reuniclus deserves the ranking of about a B simply because of although it has the potential to be great, but overall is just countered and not as useful as it once was for the metagame. Reuniclus deserves more recognition, but not too much. Scizor being #1 along with Jirachi and Tyranitar being as common as ever make it just a bit too inefficient. I feel it is better than a B-, but it is not A Rank. A solid B fits it well.
I support everything PDC says, if my opinion means anything.
...Espeon is the overall bulkier Pokemon, with 65 / 60 / 95 > 65 / 75 / 75-- you just don't see Espeon ev'd as bulky as often because people invest in its awesome Speed. Xatu may SEEM bulkier just because its defensive typing is overall more useful.
Well I gave it a shot, and I had difficulty not getting 3HKOed by every neutral attack under the sun (not literally) whenever I switched in to tank a hit, and being forced to WishTect in that scenario nearly every time was not fun and left me pretty wide open. Wish may be good support, but Vaporeon is often forced to choose between healing itself or its teammate, since it no longer has reliable recovery. With Protect and Scald thrown into the mix, Vappy already has 4MSS, which is my biggest gripe with the set. Without Roar, things like Volcarona and SubDD Gyarados beat you one-on-one. Without Toxic, it isn't able to stall out pokemon that can heal themselves. Without Heal Bell, Vaporeon is again not utilising one of its main niches over other Water-types. I'm sorry, but your arguments have failed to convince me why I should be using Vaporeon over another Water-type that has either more resistances, reliable recovery or consistent utility. For the record, top OU players do visit, just not all of them, capisch~?
Now onto better discussion.
Tornadus is a very dangerous threat. STAB Flying doesn't have too many resists in OU, and most of them do not have reliable recovery or are flat out too frail to tank the hit. Outside of Hurricane spam, it has U-Turn to keep momentum against its switch-ins, Superpower or Focus Blast to smash the pink blobs and Steels, a quick Taunt to stop status, boosting or healing attempts and a quick Rain Dance to neuter the opponent's Chlorophyll / Sand Rush sweeper or whatever in case your Politoed was unexpectedly KOed. There's even Sleep Talk which can be used to soak up Spore and coincides with Prankster to launch a quick and powerful attack, as Flying isn't resisted by many in the tier. Its SR vulnerability prevents it from constantly jumping in and out with U-Turn and wearing down counters with Hurricane like Tornadus-T did, plus it is pretty frail and reliant on Rain, but it is still a very potent threat. A- from me.
Can't comment on Stoutland because I haven't used it :/
Breloom has always been a hard pokemon to play around, and an absolute nightmare for slower pokemon. Spore puts them out of commision and deters faster pokemon from switching in to resist a STAB attack and KO back. After Sleep Clause is initiated, the faster check still has to worry about Breloom's powerful moves. Its STAB moves hit devastatingly hard, and there's the risk of Stone Edge that makes would be switch-ins pause. Technician Mach Punch has about the same utility as Scizor's Bullet Punch, hitting more threats SE at the cost of hitting a lot more NVE and is useless against Gengar. Substitute Breloom makes offensive teams cringe if it gets on up safely, or if it has Poison Heal causes quite a bit of hell for defensive teams as well. The issue mainly lies with how easily Breloom can cripple pokemon and setup / wreck.
It can take good advantage of the bulky Waters and Steels in OU, and resistance to the EdgeQuake combo means it can try to tank Landorus-T as well and threaten the Spore. However it isn't bulky enough to rely on its good defensive typing nor is it fast enough to not be relying on Mach Punch or Substitute most of the time to deal with a majority of threats, making it more predictable. Agreed that it should stay in A where it is.
Gyarados's typing alone is extremely anti-meta: it boasts resistances to lots of things, including but not limited to Keldeo, Landorus-I, Heatran, Scizor, Toxicroak and Volcarona; it has a deadly setup move in Dragon Dance; it has a powerful STAB combo; it has good bulk and access to Taunt; and it gains a boost in Rain and possibly Moxie. A recipe for potential right here. The SR weakness hold it back though as it can turn many 3HKOes into 2HKOes, most notably from Keldeo. However it has few notable flaws otherwise: Intimidate is a great boon that allows it to setup on stuff like Ferrothorn (needs Taunt or preferably Sub) and Scizor, and its STAB combo is resisted by Rotom-W alone. It is hindered by Sun though, as it neuters its main STAB while the other only has 8 PP and takes 2 turns. Definitely a threat to watch out for, but am torn between A- and A.
Haven't used Reuni since the start of BW2. Guilty :I
buddy, you've been arguing about vaporeon for pages, and practically everyone has told you that you're wrong, with arguments to back it up. can you just accept that you are wrong on this one and move on?
Nominating Donphan for D-Rank
Donphan's sole purpose in OU is being a sun rapid spinner and more than half the time, it fails at that job, similar to sandslash and claydol. Donphan has a horrible defensive typing, granting it weakness to the common ice, water and grass attacks, while only resisting the rock and poison (and only the former is a relevant offensive type). While it has some nice physical bulk, its special bulk is awful, meaning that it gets 2HKO'd by several common special attacks like fire blast, draco meteor and ice beam. Because donphan usually runs a physically defensive spread, its attacks are so weak that it becomes setup bait for various pokemon. For example, after an intimidate, its ice shard doesn't even 3HKO defensive landorus-t. Even things like salamence can live an uninvested Ice shard and KO back with draco meteor / Fire blast once its weakened. With its uninvested attack in mind, donphan cannot 3HKO physically defensive jellicent, while it 2HKOs in return with scald. Against gengar, ice shard only 6HKOs the sub disable sets, while it gets 2HKO'd in return with shadow ball.
Another reason that donphan should move down to D-Rank is that its outclassed by forretress. Forretress may not be able to beat common spinblockers, but it does have a better defensive typing, volt switch, a more powerful gyro ball and spikes, making it much more useful in the long run.
Sorry if my reasoning was confusing, but its very late where I live.
Completely agree with the user above me. Accept the fact your wrong instead of continuing a pointless argument.
I disagree for Stoutland going to B+ because it is dependent from sandstorm to be a good revenge killer; its Normal STAB is mediocre and easily walled; it does not have any resistances, making it rather vulnerable to priority despite being bulky; there are some Pokémon very capable of walling him if they switch on the right move (they generally only fear one move that Stoutland may be carrying), with some of them even being capable of switching on every move that Stoutland carries (I will bold those): Jirachi, Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn (fears Superpower), Skarmory (fears Wild Charge), physically defensive Hippowdon, and even some lesser Pokémon like Sableye and Metagross. Finally, there are arguably better options like Terrakion and Landorus.
For Breloom, I am not sure if it deserves to go to A+. While all that was said about it is true, Breloom has some serious flaws. Once it has used Spore, it isn't as threathening. It is badly walled by Celebi, which has became very common because it can wall Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus. There are many faster Pokémon that resist Mach Munch, such as Tornadus, Starmie, Lati@s, Landorus, and even rare threats like NP Celebi and sun Pokémon like Venusaur and Victini; each of them also have attacks that can easily get rid of Breloom. However, Breloom is still good. There were many times that I swept unprepared opponents with this thing. A fun fact: Breloom can OHKO an 4/0 Volcarona with +2 Adamant Mach Punch after Stealth Rock. You do not know how many times the opponent switched their Volcarona thinking they could simply defeat Breloom without a second thougth due to Volcarona's resistance to Mach Punch.
For Gyarados, I definitively agree for it being A. It is an amazing Pokémon right now, capable of walling special Landorus, as well as Keldeo that lack Hidden Power Electric. What is better, is that Gyarados can counter both without being vulnerable to Tyranitar. In fact, Gyarados can beat Tyranitar by itself. Many Fighting-types are stopping using Stone Edge to use Ice Punch because they feel like Gliscor, Landorus, and Dragon-types are higher threats than Gyarados; this means that fewer and fewer Pokémon are carrying attacks that can actually hit Gyarados super-effectively. Is only real flaws are its weakness to Stealth Rock and 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks, because otherwise Gyarados is an excellent Pokémon. Speed is also a minor problem for it because it gets outrun by most Scarf Pokémon even after a Dragon Dance, but with exception of Latios, there aren't any Pokémon that outspeed or pack priority that are going to revenge kill Gyarados unless they pack super-effective attacks to use against it.
I was looking through this list, and I saw Bisharp in D! I've been using him on my recent team, and I can say he deserves better than D-rank. I'd say he's at least C-rank. Bisharp has several niches that it can execute well if you play well with it. It's biggest drawback is that it is heavily reliant on prediction, but a good player can use Bisharp to its fullest extent. Bisharp's pros:
-Steel typing with excellent defenses. Can take several Outrages before defeating the opposing dragon with....
-STAB Sucker Punch. After a Swords Dance, Sucker Punch KO's everything in the tier that attacks it and doesn't resist it. Again, pretty prediction-reliant, but very powerful.
-Two immunities. These are key to setting up a Bisharp sweep. Alakazam threathening your Keldeo? Switch in Bisharp. One should play aggressive with Bisharp. It can beat most Focus Blast users with correct prediction and Sucker Punch if you switch in at the right time.
-Defiant. A smaller pro, but definitely wins games. People tend to forget about defiant, and carelessly send in Landorus-T or Gyarados, only for you to get an attack boost.
To end my plea, I don't say Bisharp deserves A-rank. I merely say it should be in C, not in D. Some games, it does nothing for your team, but sometimes, it wins you the game.
I'd disagree with the motion to put bisharp in C. Bisharp is REALLY weak to priority(Mach Punch) and becomes set up fodder for mons like SubCM Latias who can set up a substitute on Sucker Punch and proceed to CM while Bisharp fails repeatedly. The issue with Bisharp is that Sucker Punch is easily predicted and taken advantage of while any other Dark-type STAB like Night Slash is of no use because Bisharp is too slow.
Worse, most OU Dragons can take care of Bisharp with coverage easily: Salamence OHKOes with Fire Blast, as does Garchomp with Earthquake. Kyurem gets around it with Earth Power while Latias and Latios OHKO with HP Fire.
The tipping point is that the 3 most dangerous mons in OU - Keldeo, Landorus and Scizor all hands down beat Bisharp.
So no, Bisharp should stay D-Rank. Tyranitar does a much better job as a defensive Dark-type and as an offensive one as well.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 302-356 (88.04 - 103.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 398-468 (124.76 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 378-446 (105.58 - 124.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 437-515 (132.02 - 155.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 138-162 (42.2 - 49.54%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I could go on. The point is once it gets a swords dance boost you NEED something with good bulk, resistance to dark and the power to ohko bisharp or a breloom in order to stop it. Bisharp resists every single priority in ou bar mach punch so i dont see how is it EXTREMELY weak to priority. Also lol at latios and latias checking bisharp. Latios is outright ohkoed by sucker punch while sub calm latias is koed by either night slash or iron head depending of your choice for the fourth slot.
Player X returned Latios and sent out Breloom/any fighting type
Bisharp used Sucker Punch... it failed!
Fighting type set up!
If Bisharp isn't using Sucker Punch, Latias can simply click HP Fire and out.
Also, that's at +2: how often does Bisharp actually get the chance to get to +2? Even if Bisharp tries to set up(which can be predicted), any mon can hide behind a Substitute and troll Bisharp. The issue is that either Bisharp sets up and gets trolled by the Substitute or it uses sucker punch and is trolled by the sub.
Honestly, Bisharp is set up bait for SO many mons who can click Substitute, set up a Sub and kill Bisharp.
Some of the calcs given are meaningless because Bisharp never actually sets up on Garchomp or Salamence because both can outspeed and OHKO.
What you are claiming is essentially that IF Bisharp switches in and isn't OHKOed and IF Bisharp can set up to +2 without being OHKOed and IF Bisharp can use Sucker Punch correctly THEN it can beat some mons in OU. Meaning that:
a) Any mon that sets a substitute during set up or during Sucker Punch and carries Fire, Fighting or Ground Coverage can beat Bisharp
b) Any mon that outspeeds and 2HKOes Bisharp beats it because of the free-turn of switch in followed by the Swords Dance
c) Any mon carrying Spore or Will'o'wisp can beat Bisharp simply by burning it and stalling it out
Just to give you an idea of Bisharp's frailness:
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 186-219 (55.68 - 65.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that even with full HP investment(which makes Bisharp either VERY slow or lacking in attack) Bisharp cannot switch into Jolteon.
Heavy reliance on Sucker Punch, bad Special defense and bad speed is what in my opinion keeps Bisharp D-Rank - it needs an SD to actually pose a threat but is OHKOed by most common threats like below:
252+ SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp in rain: 337-397 (118.66 - 139.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 749-884 (263.73 - 311.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Earth Power vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 312-369 (109.85 - 129.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Jirachi Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 244-289 (90.03 - 106.64%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The list can go on and on, but the point is that Bisharp is too frail and easily beaten by prediction to be a good sweeper in OU.
What is the appropriate action to take in response to a user who continues to post despite claiming that they're going to leave? You've had your opinion countered by a dozens of players who are far better than you are, and have a accurate idea of the game balance state at the moment. I won't be tolerating your arrogance or colossal Vaporeon fanboyism any longer. In other words, I want you to get the hell out of my thread and if I catch you posting here again I'll infract you.
I'm seriously considering adding blacklist system to this thread.
I actually completely agree with this. I feel that Bisharp is really not getting the use it deserves. Bisharp seems exactly where the C Rank description came from. The person that was saying he doesnt deserve it because he is beaten by S Rank pokemon and can not take a Mach Punch. Exactly, that is why he belongs in C. No shit it will lose to S Rank mons, that is why they are S Rank. Also, Mach Punch weak would count as a crippling flaw. Let us say you partner it with Gengar or something. Bisharp does great in a situation like this. You have Bisharp and your opponent sends out Breloom, you switch to Gengar and then they switch to Latios. Then Latios will try to kill you and Bisharp can come in and get the free Swords Dance. Also, not being Stealth Rock weak and being Steel type is always a good thing.
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 221-260 (59.89 - 70.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (subroost, and watch out for earth power while you roost)
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 221-260 (68.63 - 80.74%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (offensive lo)
Zapdos doesn't beat landorus reliably.
Zapdos might as well go down to B-, it never really worked for me, I've tried the offensive LO set and it's just too slow and prone to being revenge killed.
I also agree with Donphan for D-tier. I'd rather use forry/hitmontop on sun teams
What are you doing bro
But even so, if rocks are up, spdef zapdos struggles as well.
I feel as if multiple checks (rotom-w, latias, jelli, etc) are better to try to deal with it (AND many other threats simultaneously) than trying to pack a hard counter (really, there are none)
I actually did the calcs on the old subroost set... sorry
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Zapdos: 161-190 (42.03 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
but then spdef Zapdos is outsped and 2HKOed by hp ice after SR
Please....please do this. I will get on my knees and beg. I'm really hating to see this wonderful thread slowly becoming tarnished by people who are only bumping Pokemon because they just like the Pokemon. If that was the case, I would nominate Sceptile to S-rank.
Anyways jokes aside, I feel that this thread needs a become a bit more strict and less lenient on ignorant posts. This thread is obviously meant for high quality discussion amongst players that know what they hell they're talking about, so we can try to discuss exactly how good certain Pokemon are fairing in this current metagame. The thing that really pisses me off is why some people seem to care so much about moving Pokemon up or down a certain rank. I remember a long time ago when there was a huge argument that broke out when someone wanted to move Amoonguss down to C-rank. For some reason, a huge fight broke out, both sides refusing to give up and some even becoming almost hostile. That was just so ridiculous to me, and that's when I realized that this thread was starting to tumble into a downward spiral. This recent Vaporeon argument was ridiculous, and it pains me to see someone insult everyone on this thread just because they can't except the fact that they're wrong. This is the problem. No one can except the fact that they are wrong. Everyone is so hostile towards each other, and it pisses me of to see people fight over a game. People are acting rude, selfish, and ignorant.
Why is it that the other viability ranking threads seem to not have this big of a problem? If someone argues against something, but is later corrected, they apologize for being wrong. But here, if they're wrong, they don't give a shit. They beat the living crap out of the topic until they get what they want. That is why this thread is failing. If we want this thread to become what it used to be, it needs more Mod involvement.
That is all. Grow up people, or get off this thread. You know who you are. I'd hate to see my favorite thread die because of immaturity.
I shall be willing to provide you oral pleasure if you do that.
And I agree with everything Mr. Gary<numbers> said. Keep your fanboyism in-game please. This is meant to be a cruel objective view of the current OU meta.