Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Spinda]

While no one set can beat every pokemon, Gothitelles moveset can be tailored to trap and beat/cripple most pokemon, it's a very specific pokemon with a specific niche, but no other pokemon is this versatile when it comes to trapping.
The ability of Gothitelle teams to just trap practically any pokemon they have trouble with, using their own custom set, is just scary.
You mention shed shell, but that's really not that much of a worry of gothitelle compared to other trappers, you can put shed shell on skarmory, or even on tyranitar or heatran.. But it's just not realistic to have to put shed shell on a celebi, gliscor, hippowdon, gyarados, etc..
That being said, if one of those do carry shed shell, I'd actually much rather have a gothitelle that can't trap than a dugtrio that can't trap..

 

[Spinda]

How bout dat Bisharp tho

Bisharp @ Dread Plate
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Night Slash / Taunt
- Sucker Punch

Bisharp @ Dread Plate
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Low Kick
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch

I've said this before, but defiant + second strongest priority in the game is enough to be atleast a B-rank in this metagame, but it also has taunt, swords dance, a good defensive typing ( part steel is good enough :P ), pursuit, etc. while it is prediction reliant, it's an amazing and unique sweeper/pursuit trapper that shouldn't be underestimated.. Many more offensive teams rely on intimidaters like Landorus-T and Gyarados to soften the blow from physical sweepers, but in this case, you're only making things worse for yourself.. You've given it a boost, and both get OHKO'd by sucker punch at +3. Taunt allows it to be a nightmare to stall once Gliscor/Hippo are gone, and Night slash allows it to get in prediction games with gengar and other fast sub users/set uppers.
This pokemon's power shouldn't be underestimated, as some of the bulkiest sweepers still take big damage from its priority attacks.
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 349-412 (97.48 - 115.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 357-420 (96.74 - 113.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 505-595 (143.05 - 168.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 333-393 (85.16 - 100.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 349-412 (108.04 - 127.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO ( after multiscale's broken )
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Venusaur: 390-459 (122.25 - 143.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 316-373 (105.68 - 124.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion/Keldeo: 182-215 (56.17 - 66.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 222-261 (75.76 - 89.07%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 445-525 (148.82 - 175.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
... I think this says enough..

Nominating for B or higher. While it does have some crippling weaknesses, it has 9 resistances and 2 immunities to abuse in order to set up quite easily, a resistance to SR and a immunity to toxic is also not to be underestimated.

 

[Schpoonman]

Reliance on Sucker Punch for its priority is terrible. You've also listed lots and lots of Pokemon that are common set-up sweepers, some of whom carry Substitute or another move (like Venusaur's Sleep Powder) that get around Sucker Punch. Bisharp is powerful, but so is Absol.

 

[Magcargo]

Reliance on Sucker Punch for its priority is terrible. You've also listed lots and lots of Pokemon that are common set-up sweepers, some of whom carry Substitute or another move (like Venusaur's Sleep Powder) that get around Sucker Punch. Bisharp is powerful, but so is Absol.

Bisharp is bulkier than absol and it has more setup opportunities thanks to its Steel typing. I'm not saying bisharp should be moved up, but it shouldn't be compared to Absol.

 

[PDC]

Bisharp has many key advantages over Absol. Not only is it a bit bulkier, but Absol also lacks Bisharp's main attraction, its steel typing. That is not really that good of a comparison considering it is so clear that Bisharp obviously has a huge advantage over Absol. Sucker Punch can really incapacitate the majority of the faster threats in OU, and it has amazing power. With Defiant you can't really cripple this thing at all with Intimidate. I know Bisharp has been brought up a lot before, and I really think it is time to consider its niche in the metagame. Although it can be walled quite easily by things like Skarmory, Keldeo, and be revenge killed by quite a lot of things due to the common fighting types in the metagame, Bisharp still has a beautiful use. Those two sets listed are probably its most effective, it can function quite well as a bulkier Pursuit trapper. I support it for a move up in rank, probably about B or around there. It is not that amazing, but it does have some very good uses in the metagame, and if Keldeo leaves it will only improve.

Anyway I think that we have been settled for the most part the issue we Gothitelle. It should probably be moved to up around B+ - A-. It definitely is around that level, but I won't push that much higher.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Nominating Jirachi for S rank.

People have been debating whether Jirachi should be S rank or not already in previous pages. It fills so many roles, including a great Scarf set, a fantastic SpDef wall, and a deadly CM sweeper. It offers support for the team in the form or Wish, Healing Wish, and Stealth Rocks. Jirachi has seriously good typing, and it's movepool is incredible. And to top it all off, Jirachi can beat some of it's best counters with Iron Head flinch hax. While I don't believe that this pushes Jirachi to S rank, there's a new set floating around on the OU ladder that everyone is using now thanks to Bryce's Team. There's also a similar set which is currently being used in the OU CCAT.

Jirachi @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 224 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

With this set, Jirachi is now able to best some of it's best counters, with a surprising HP Ice. Generally Garchomp and Landorus-T love to switch into Jirachi, as they counter the usual sets. However, this Jirachi not only supports the team with Stealth Rocks, it also acts as an amazing lure to eliminate these Pokemon. Shuca Berry allows Jirachi to easily live EQ from Garchomp or Landorus-T, while Jirachi KOs them both back. Flash Cannon offers STAB and hits moderately hard, while Thunderbolt offers Bolt Beam coverage.

Jirachi @ Leftovers / Shuca Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 152 Atk / 208 SAtk / 148 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Iron Head
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt

Then there's this set, which drops SR for even more coverage. Grass Knot is pretty cruical, as it allows Jirachi to easily get past Gastrodon and Hippowdon, which are also general switch ins to Jirachi. Shuca Berry can be used on this set to also tank an EQ easily, but it's generally pretty easy to hit Gliscor / Garchomp on the switch, since they are such obvious switch ins to Jirachi. Iron Head is used over Flash Cannon for the 60% flinch rate and the ability to hit on both sides, while Jirachi is also packing Bolt Beam for it's amazing coverage.

The fact that Jirachi can get past it's usual counters so easily, as well as providing team support in so many other ways I believe makes Jirachi S rank worthy. I just generally think you're never at a disadvantage if you through Jirachi onto your team, and it can fill so many different roles. This sounds S rank worthy to me.

Jirachi suffers too much of 4 moveslot syndrome to be s rank imo.

It also can't cover each and every single threat (for example your first set can't really get past hippowdon and magnezone, the latter trapping it, while your second set has no means of doing anything to scizor, oh and ferrothorn hard walls them both). Jirachi should stay A+

 

[Trainer Au]

Jirachi suffers too much of 4 moveslot syndrome to be s rank imo.

It also can't cover each and every single threat (for example your first set can't really get past hippowdon and magnezone, the latter trapping it, while your second set has no means of doing anything to scizor, oh and ferrothorn hard walls them both). Jirachi should stay A+

I think SStarmie just posted what he feels is the most common movesets for the ebelt rachi and shucarachi. You could put many different moves on rachi to deal with whatever your team needs covered.

 

[MikeDawg]

What. jirachi can't beat every pokemon in the whole game? D-rank pls

 

[BurningMan]

Jirachi can propably beat almost every Pokemon in the game with the right set. What differentiates it from S-Rank Pokemon like Keldeo and Landorus is that it has to run completly different sets to beat the counters of another set while stuff like Keldeo just changes its Hidden Power and item and still can beat most of the metagame just with its stabs.
When Jirachi runs a mixed set to lure some of its counters it won't be that effective to stop Lati@s and other threats as it has to sacrifice its bulk and support moves. Most importantly all Jirachi sets have surefire counters and all of these are often great Pokemon themself. Jirachi is an excellent Pokemon definitelly one of the best in the whole meta game, but S-Rank is for Pokemon that are so powerful that they are potential suspect material these pokemon are able to plow through a huge part of the metagame with just one set and are able to beat their counters often by just slightly altering its flagship sets and Jirachi just doesn't falls into this league it has an excellent movepool, stats and typing, but ultimatly there will always be something on the opponents team that can take advantage of it.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

You say Jirachi shouldn't be S rank because every set can be taken advantage of. Can't the same be said about Keldeo? Choice Scarf can be set up on by multiple Pokemon, while also having sure counters to each set (just how you described Jirachi). Do you not think Keldeo should be S rank? If anything, Jirachi is much more verstile than Keldeo, and can fit onto any team.

 

[BurningMan]

You say Jirachi shouldn't be S rank because every set can be taken advantage of. Can't the same be said about Keldeo? Choice Scarf can be set up on by multiple Pokemon, while also having sure counters to each set (just how you described Jirachi). Do you not think Keldeo should be S rank? If anything, Jirachi is much more verstile than Keldeo, and can fit onto any team.

Jirachi might be the most versatile Pokemon in the game, but it has to be versatile to be any good. Steel/Psychic is a good defensive typing but on the offense they are pretty awkward having bad coverage and low Base Power moves as well as coming from mediocre 100 base attack stats. Base 100 speed is great for a wall, but for more offensive roles it just isn't what it used to be in Gen 4 which is one of the major downfalls for its offensive sets. IMO all the base 600 pixies suffer from the problem that they have good stats all around, but simply none that is outstanding its defensive sets wish they had bigger defensive stats at the exchange for some offense and its the same in reverse for the offensive sets. Sure it is nice that the offensive sets still can tank some of the stronger attacks in the metagame , but it would be much better if it could just outspeed and KO them. Jirachi has to be bulky beause it will always need to take a hit either because it is outspeed by more offensive mons or not powerful enough to KO the defensive ones.
The SDef set its premier defensive set is annoying to switch into but rather easy to force out with something that resists Iron Head and suffers from 4MSS even more than its other sets.

As i said Jirachi is an excellent pokemon, but it can't just curb stomp an opposing team like Keldeo and the support it offers isn't in the same league as TTar,Politoed or Ninetails. It is viable and you can propably slap Jirachi on almost every team with the right set, but for me that doesn't makes it S-Rank.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Nominating Dusknoir for D rank.

Dusknoir @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)

- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-o-Wisp / Pain Split

Now, I know dusknoir's got a noob reputation for "sucking" in Gen 4. however, Dusk has a niche in OU as the only effective ghost-type subpuncher (yes, I know there's Golurk, but it simply isn't as bulky as Dusk and can't set up as easily thanks to being weak to water and grass, as well as not having access to will-o-wisp).
As I said in the Lower Tier Threats thread, dusknoir has a very effective subpunch set which hits surprisingly hard thanks to his decent base 100 attack. He can find many opportunities to set up thanks to his good bulk (if you say his defenses are balanced out by his bad hp stat, then Deoxys-D would like to have a word with you.). Being a ghost-type also means Dusk can spinblock, and thus he makes an excellent addition to any team (especially those that rely on many layers of entry hazards) that needs a defensive spinblocker that actually hits hard. Dusknoir also has shadow sneak which allows him to pick off weakened threats and to 2HKO starmie and gengar, whom dusknoir can easily defeat when behind a sub. It's worth mentioning that ghost + fighting has unresisted coverage. He also has Will-o-Wisp to make any physical attacker think twice before switching in, as well as Pain Split which provides some sort of recovery (though personally I prefer will-o-wisp).
Of course this is the only set dusknoir can pull off in OU without being outclassed, as the defensive set is outclassed by Jellicent, who packs an additional water typing and has access to Taunt, Scald and Recover.

 

[Punchshroom]

But why would we need a Ghost-type SubPuncher? Golurk is still better because of its Rock resist, which allows it to wall Terrakion, and can hit back hard(er) even when not behind a Substitute. Not that either of these 2 Ghosts are fantastic in OU, but Golurk at least has a niche in stopping Terrakion and has other strong options outside of Focus Punch, like...oh I don't know....STAB Earthquake and Iron Fist-boosted Shadow Punches/elemental punches? Golurk doesn't even need to SubPunch. What can Dusknoir even do in OU, seeing as spinblocking is done much better by Jeliicent?

Therefore:

Of course this is the only set dusknoir can pull off in OU without being outclassed

Completely false. There are better SubPunchers like Breloom or even Toxicroak who can get past stuff like Landorus-T, Substitute Gyarados, and basically everything that can take Focus Punch and isn't weak to Shadow Sneak (except Celebi).

 

[Celever]

Dusclops outclasses Dusknoir and Dusclops sucks.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

But why would we need a Ghost-type SubPuncher? Golurk is still better because of its Rock resist, which allows it to wall Terrakion, and can hit back hard(er) even when not behind a Substitute. Not that either of these 2 Ghosts are fantastic in OU, but Golurk at least has a niche in stopping Terrakion and has other strong options outside of Focus Punch, like...oh I don't know....STAB Earthquake and Iron Fist-boosted Shadow Punches/elemental punches? Golurk doesn't even need to SubPunch. What can Dusknoir even do in OU, seeing as spinblocking is done much better by Jeliicent?

There are better SubPunchers like Breloom or even Toxicroak who can get past stuff like Landorus-T, Substitute Gyarados, and basically everything that can take Focus Punch and isn't weak to Shadow Sneak (except Celebi).

Dusknoir also walls terrakion unless the musketeer's carrying a Choice Band or hits Dusk with Stone Edge on the switch, which is called prediction. Dusk can switch in just as safely on Close Combat or X-Scissor, or even earthquake, and set up a sub. Dusknoir's access to will-o-wisp is imo a big reason why is it better than Golurk as a subpuncher (the other reasons: 1. golurk can't set up as easily thanks to its ground-type, which makes it weak to water and grass, and 2. its worse bulk).
Also, dusk's ghost-typing and access to Will-o-Wisp make sure it isn't outclassed by Breloom and Toxicroak. landorus-t is afraid of Will-o-Wisp anyway and Gyarados can be hit with this move on the switch and won't sweep anytime soon.

Dusclops outclasses Dusknoir and Dusclops sucks.

I agree that Dusclops is total garbage, but it doesn't outclass dusknoir.

 

[Celever]

Dusknoir doesn't have good offenses; Dusclops outclasses him because of this since with Seismic Toss you are doing the same/more power than you would with Dusknoir AND you are bulky. Simple as that.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

How? Focus Punch is a coverage move, not a move where you simply deal 100 damage because your offenses are just too weak. I think you are underestimating dusknoir's power.

252+ Atk Dusknoir Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 202-238 (57.38 - 67.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (What can Dusclops even do to Ferrothorn bar Will-o-Wisp? seismic toss is a contact move, meaning you take damage from the oh-so-annoying Iron Barbs)
252+ Atk Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (what can 252 hp / 4 sdef dusclops do to it bar will-o-wisp? No leftovers means it's 2hkoed by Specs Draco Meteor)

And dusclops is complete setup bait for some dangerous special sweepers, like offensive volcarona (Dusknoir can at least put up a substitute and 3HKO it with Focus Punch). Magic Bounce and Taunt are huge problems for dusclops, while dusknoir can shadow sneak espeon and xatu for the 2HKO, while 2HKOing Azelf (who often carries Taunt) with Shadow Sneak.

You shouldn't even compare dusclops to dusknoir, since Dusk's SubPunch set is imo viable in OU, while dusclops is complete trash because of how easily it becomes setup fodder.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I actually replied to a similar suggestion elsewhere (you might actually be the same person, but whatever). Here's the gist of my previous arguments against Dusknoir.

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Dusknoir has an incredible number of problems. First of all, it doesn't actually do anything except get a little surprise damage every once in a while. It's hard to say that it actually spinblocks when it often loses to the two best spinners in the tier. The only way that Dusknoir can avoid the 2HKO from offensive Starmie after SR is if runs Surf > Hydro Pump, has no Life Orb, has Natural Cure > Analytic, and is not in Rain. Otherwise, Starmie just 2HKOs (or OHKOs) Dusknoir on the switch-in. More defensive Rain teams often run SubToxic Tentacruel to beat Jellicent, and it can create Subs that survive Focus Punch and always break your Subs with a Rain-boosted Scald.

Dusknoir also doesn't actually threaten much when it comes in. Depending on the damage roll, Jolly Breloom only needs 4 or 5 Bullet Seed hits to KO Dusknoir. Celebi does pretty much whatever it wants since Shadow Sneak doesn't get even close to a 2HKO. Scarf Terrakion will usually 2HKO after SR with Stone Edge, and Band is even worse. Most Rain-boosted attacks coming off offensive Pokemon are going to be doing tons of damage, if not KOing altogether. Dragons just eat Dusknoir alive. That's just a few; Dusknoir does not succeed as a bulky offensive pivot at all.

Dusknoir also has problems with its stats themselves. For one thing, it's pretty weak. Base 100 Atk stat isn't that bad, but it's relying on the unreliable Focus Punch for its power since Shadow Sneak is just pitiful. This makes it very easy for many Pokemon to set up all over it and beat it, even if you can successfully force a switch and get a Substitute up. As mentioned before, SubToxic Tentacruel just sets up Subs all over it with ease. Poison Heal Gliscor laughs at everything it does. Gyarados with Sub or Taunt just sets up all over Dusknoir as well. BU Toxicroak plays mind games with you like you wouldn't believe. That, or it can just set up Subs until Focus Punch fails to break one (1/8 chance) and get up a Bulk Up, after which its Subs can't be one-shoted and it sets up all over you. Substitute Landorus-T plays with Dusknoir like Gyarados does, although it's admittedly rare. Shadow Sneak maxes out at 43.4% against SubCM Latias, so she just sets up on it as well unless you can predict around Sub with WoW perfectly. CM Reuniclus manhandles it because, again, Shadow Sneak is so weak. Venusaur can set up on it and heal back a lot of the damage that it does with Giga Drain. Any Volcarona with Roost sets up on it, and other sets without Roost can win and sweep depending on the circumstances.

Not only does it not do much damage, but it's not as bulky as its high defensive stats would lead you to believe due to its low base HP stat. It's barely bulkier than a Dragonite with equal investment (not counting Multiscale, of course), and it's less bulky than several common Pokemon such as Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi, Garchomp, and Conkeldurr (again, with equal investment) on one or both sides of the offensive spectrum. It also only has one common immunity and only one common resistance (if you even want to count Bug, since half of the time that's just U-turn, which is going to end up hurting Dusknoir in the end anyway). It also lacks reliable recovery to actually take advantage of what bulk it does have. All of this makes it very hard for Dusknoir to actually switch in and pose a threat unless the opponent is trapped into a Choice-locked Fighting move or something.

Honestly, there's not much that Dusknoir actually does that isn't done far better by something else. Its roles as a spin blocker and a bulky offensive pivot can be better performed by Pokemon such as Jellicent and Landorus-T, respectively. If you want a Substitute-based Ghost set that messes with its common counters and checks with Will-O-Wisp, just use SubWisp Gengar (which is a really cool set right now). Dusknoir just doesn't offer much of anything that I can't get from something else besides surprise value, which is never a good argument for viability.

Dusknoir is just not viable. Sure it can do a little damage here and there and possibly catch someone by surprise, but lot's of Pokemon can do that. Leave Dusknoir in E-Rank.

EDIT: I'm at school on my phone atm, but I'll try to get to your argument as soon as I get home, DoABarrelRoll. ^_^

 

[Schpoonman]

Dusknoir doesn't have good offenses; Dusclops outclasses him because of this since with Seismic Toss you are doing the same/more power than you would with Dusknoir AND you are bulky. Simple as that.

Such scintillating arguments.

Yeah, nevermind, Gibbs and Punchshroom are right.

 

[Punchshroom]

Dusknoir also walls terrakion unless the musketeer's carrying a Choice Band or hits Dusk with Stone Edge on the switch, which is called prediction.

So how does predicting around the attack as opposed to just not caring about it equate to an advantage?

Dusk can switch in just as safely on Close Combat or X-Scissor, or even earthquake, and set up a sub.

Golurk, if EVed properly, can do the same, without losing any offensive power at all (and most likely, still being stronger than Dusknoir).

Dusknoir's access to will-o-wisp is imo a big reason why is it better than Golurk as a subpuncher

Most of the things you'd try to burn with Wisp, Golurk can already deal with just by punching their faces in. Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punch or Thunderpunch suffice in most situations where Wisp would save you from a Fighting-resistant poke (not that you should be SubPunching with Golurk since it has better things to do). If they dodge the Will-o-Wisp and set up Sub, there is little to nothing Dusknoir can do about it.

(the other reasons: 1. golurk can't set up as easily thanks to its ground-type, which makes it weak to water and grass, and 2. its worse bulk).

1: Its neutrailty to Water does little for it considering most Water attacks it encounters are too strong for it to face since they are boosted by Rain, most of the Water types don't even care about Dusknoir anyway. If there is no Rain there is most likely Sand, which Golurk does not care about while Dusknoir cannot gain HP made from Subs. The lack of Grass weakness is a bit more relevant since Bullet Seed Breloom and Ferrothorn do exist, but isn't a outright resist much better? I'd rather try Breloom or Toxicroak, both of which even have 12% per turn recovery. 2: Golurk's worse bulk is compensated by additional resistances (where the bulk would matter more) and greater offensive power. After all, isn't the point of a SubPuncher to punish foes with "free" damage?

Also, dusk's ghost-typing and access to Will-o-Wisp make sure it isn't outclassed by Breloom and Toxicroak. landorus-t is afraid of Will-o-Wisp anyway and Gyarados can be hit with this move on the switch and won't sweep anytime soon.

Who cares about typing, what are you even trying to accomplish with Dusknoir? Kill Fighting-weak pokes? Then the Fighters are obviously better due to STAB, not to mention they aren't stuck with a piss weak 40 base power STAB to back up Focus Punch. Landorus-T can overcome Will-o-Wisp with Swords Dance while you do nothing in return; if Gyara isn't hit on the switch (which may not be easily telegraphed), Dusknoir has to get out of there and lose momentum for you.

How? Focus Punch is a coverage move, not a move where you simply deal 100 damage because your offenses are just too weak. I think you are underestimating dusknoir's power.

Wait, now you claim Focus Punch is your coverage move?? So your main method to fight back is Shadow Sneak? By the looks of it, Dusknoir is almost completely dependant on unSTABed Focus Punch (lol) to do competent damage against neutral foes, while other SubPunchers can resort to their possible alternate STAB. We're not understimating Dusknoir's strength: 100 base Attack using an unSTABed 150 base power move is really unimpressive when you compare it to walls like Ferrothorn's 94 base Attack using 120 base power STAB Power Whip, or Hippowdon's 112 base Attack using 100 base power STAB Earthquake. If you can't hit harder than that with your main offensive move, you know your power is really subpar for an offensive poke.

252+ Atk Dusknoir Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 202-238 (57.38 - 67.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (What can Dusclops even do to Ferrothorn bar Will-o-Wisp? seismic toss is a contact move, meaning you take damage from the oh-so-annoying Iron Barbs)
252+ Atk Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (what can 252 hp / 4 sdef dusclops do to it bar will-o-wisp? No leftovers means it's 2hkoed by Specs Draco Meteor)

You need to setup Sub on Ferro, which will easily break it with Power Whip, while going for Wisp means risking either Thunder Wave and/or Leech Seed. And another thing, Dusclops isn't really meant for taking on special attackers, but it can still attempt to outstall Latios with Pain Split after Draco Meteor. This Dusknoir on the other hand, takes 89.79 - 106.12% (37.5% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after SR) from Specs Draco Meteor, so....have fun.

And dusclops is complete setup bait for some dangerous special sweepers, like offensive volcarona (Dusknoir can at least put up a substitute and 3HKO it with Focus Punch). Magic Bounce and Taunt are huge problems for dusclops, while dusknoir can shadow sneak espeon and xatu for the 2HKO, while 2HKOing Azelf (which often carries Taunt) with Shadow Sneak.

Dusclops can use Curse (which at least combos well with Pain Split) to deter setup, and the Volcarona example is poor considering you could get burned by Flame Body, can't Focus Punch again after it breaks your Sub, and loses to Roost variants anyway. The Magic Bouncers and Azelf are rare in OU, better examples would be Taunt Terrakion and Gyarados, the former of which you actually lose to if you fail to set up a Substitute.

You shouldn't even compare dusclops to dusknoir, since Dusk's SubPunch set is imo viable in OU, while dusclops is complete trash because of how easily it becomes setup fodder.

We can compare them defensively (in which case Dusknoir would be eclipsed), while its "offensive niche" is better occupied by Golurk and other SubPunchers who can fight back with methods aside from Focus Punch (Golurk shouldn't even bother with Focus Punch). Of course, neither Dusclops or Dusknoir has any business at all in OU when something else could be doing their job better.

 

[Celever]

Dusknoir is a pokemon who can run many sets and have the same use with most of them, yes, but overall he has lackluster defenses, offenses and speed. I actually faced one earlier who was being used as a Trick Room setter and he didn't even get to the level of jack-shit, I just OHKO'd it....

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I actually replied to a similar suggestion elsewhere (you might actually be the same person, but whatever). Here's the gist of my previous arguments against Dusknoir.

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Dusknoir has an incredible number of problems. First of all, it doesn't actually do anything except get a little surprise damage every once in a while. It's hard to say that it actually spinblocks when it often loses to the two best spinners in the tier. The only way that Dusknoir can avoid the 2HKO from offensive Starmie after SR is if runs Surf > Hydro Pump, has no Life Orb, has Natural Cure > Analytic, and is not in Rain. Otherwise, Starmie just 2HKOs (or OHKOs) Dusknoir on the switch-in. More defensive Rain teams often run SubToxic Tentacruel to beat Jellicent, and it can create Subs that survive Focus Punch and always break your Subs with a Rain-boosted Scald.
That's called prediction. If dusknoir's team has set up entry hazards, starmie will have to predict if Dusk comes in and use Hydro Pump, or go for the rapid spin. If dusk predicts correctly, Shadow Sneak is a 2HKO while LO Hydro Pump doesn't come close to OHKOing (dusk can even take a LO Surf in the rain.) Yes, I agree that Dusk can't beat Tentacruel, but Jellicent and Gengar can't do that either (although Gengar can weaken it with Thunderbolt).

Dusknoir also doesn't actually threaten much when it comes in. Depending on the damage roll, Jolly Breloom only needs 4 or 5 Bullet Seed hits to KO Dusknoir.
Celebi does pretty much whatever it wants (Not if Dusk is behind a sub.) since Shadow Sneak doesn't get even close to a 2HKO.
Scarf Terrakion will usually 2HKO after SR with Stone Edge, and Band is even worse.
(Dusknoir will usually come in on Close Combat, X-Scissor or Earthquake.) Most Rain-boosted attacks coming off offensive Pokemon are going to be doing tons of damage, if not KOing altogether.
Dragons just eat Dusknoir alive. (I totally disagree with this. All dragons bar Latios and Latias fear Will-o-Wisp, and the lati twins are both 2hkoed by shadow sneak after stealth rock damage, assuming they are running an offensive set.)
That's just a few; Dusknoir does not succeed as a bulky offensive pivot at all.


Dusknoir also has problems with its stats themselves. For one thing, it's pretty weak. Base 100 Atk stat isn't that bad, but it's relying on the unreliable Focus Punch for its power since Shadow Sneak is just pitiful. This makes it very easy for many Pokemon to set up all over it and beat it, even if you can successfully force a switch and get a Substitute up. As mentioned before, SubToxic Tentacruel just sets up Subs all over it with ease. Poison Heal Gliscor laughs at everything it does. Gyarados with Sub or Taunt just sets up all over Dusknoir as well. BU Toxicroak plays mind games with you like you wouldn't believe. That, or it can just set up Subs until Focus Punch fails to break one (1/8 chance) and get up a Bulk Up, after which its Subs can't be one-shoted and it sets up all over you. Substitute Landorus-T plays with Dusknoir like Gyarados does, although it's admittedly rare. Shadow Sneak maxes out at 43.4% against SubCM Latias (which is still a 2HKO with just a little prior damage), so she just sets up on it as well unless you can predict around Sub with WoW perfectly. CM Reuniclus manhandles it because, again, Shadow Sneak is so weak. Venusaur can set up on it and heal back a lot of the damage that it does with Giga Drain. Any Volcarona with Roost sets up on it, and other sets without Roost can win and sweep depending on the circumstances.
Volcarona without Roost always loses to dusknoir with SR up.

Not only does it not do much damage, but it's not as bulky as its high defensive stats would lead you to believe due to its low base HP stat. It's barely bulkier than a Dragonite with equal investment (not counting Multiscale, of course), and it's less bulky than several common Pokemon such as Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi, Garchomp, and Conkeldurr (again, with equal investment) on one or both sides of the offensive spectrum. It also only has one common immunity and only one common resistance (if you even want to count Bug, since half of the time that's just U-turn, which is going to end up hurting Dusknoir in the end anyway). (Dusknoir laughs at U-turns even from choice band scizor: 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dusknoir: 66-78 (22.44 - 26.53%) -- possible 5HKO) It also lacks reliable recovery to actually take advantage of what bulk it does have. All of this makes it very hard for Dusknoir to actually switch in and pose a threat unless the opponent is trapped into a Choice-locked Fighting move or something.

Honestly, there's not much that Dusknoir actually does that isn't done far better by something else. Its roles as a spin blocker and a bulky offensive pivot can be better performed by Pokemon such as Jellicent and Landorus-T, respectively. If you want a Substitute-based Ghost set that messes with its common counters and checks with Will-O-Wisp, just use SubWisp Gengar (which is a really cool set right now). Dusknoir just doesn't offer much of anything that I can't get from something else besides surprise value, which is never a good argument for viability.

Dusknoir is just not viable. Sure it can do a little damage here and there and possibly catch someone by surprise, but lot's of Pokemon can do that. Leave Dusknoir in E-Rank.

 

[Halcyon.]

How is Dusknoir ever beating Volcarona? Like, ever?

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Dusknoir: 200-238 (68.02 - 80.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Dusknoir Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 106-125 (34.08 - 40.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and that's the LEAST bulky Volcarona set. Yes, with Stealth Rock up AND a Substitute, you can win, but just about anything can beat Volcarona with Rocks...

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I'm gonna interrupt this argument about Dusknoir to nominate Raikou for C-Rank

Raikou is bulkier and has a bit more power than Jolteon as well as having a better movepool. Jolteon is faster and not as easily trapped by Dugtrio, but base 115 speed is pretty fast. Thundurus-T is better in most cases, but the former has more bulk, speed and lacks a Stealth Rock weakness. There are plenty of reasons to use Raikou over Jolteon or Thundurus-T as an offensive Electric type which should give it enough to be ranked.

 

[Punchshroom]

The thing with Raikou is that it only gets access to its better movepool (Weather Ball and Aura Sphere) if it runs a Rash nature. While this is just barely enough to beat out base 100s, not outspeeding stuff like Starmie, Tornadus, Gengar and Garchomp are not good things for Raikou. Even then, choosing Rash still leaves you weaker and slower than Thundurus-T; choosing Timid would mean Jolteon gives you stiff competition for its ability to outrun Dugtrio, Alakazam and Scarf Tyranitar (admittedly uncommon), and knows Baton Pass to escape Pursuit and Dugtrio. There isn't much Raikou can do to seperate itself from these 2 Electrics, Jolteon even being C-Rank itself.