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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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And that's where the "supportive" movepool ends! Outside of that, Politoed has Protect (which every Pokemon has), Toxic (which every Pokemon has), and Scald! Ninetales has Roar (a faster Perish Song), Will-O-Wisp (Scald with better chances), and commonly caries Sunny Day. Sunny Day can be used when another weather inducer comes in, or even when it's already in, and it's amazingly useful because for the most part, as other weather inducers only switch in to set up their weather. Will-O-Wisp cripples over half the metagame (most of the power comes from physical attackers) and effectively neuters them, including Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Ninetales also has a partner in crime to help it win the weather war in the form of Magma Storm Heatran, something that Politoed doesn't have.
Don't kid yourself. Politoed and Ninetales are both used solely for their weather, but Ninetales defensive typing and speed (to an extent) neuters it a bit. I think Ninetales is fine in A+ Rank, a bit under Politoed.
EDIT: Please delete this, I meant to edit my other post but it came out as 2 posts...
I think you contradicted yourself in two sentences. How effective a pokemon is in a metagame also accounts for how much support it can bring to the table. Drought is exactly the reason why Ninetales is ranked so high in the first place. I wasn't advocating Ninetales to move to E rank or anything that drastic. I believed Ninetales should move from A+ to A.
The benefits of any weather is great, sun being no different. Whichever weather being better than the other is arguable, but there's no denying that plenty of pokemon can benefit from the eternal drought Ninetales supplies. Again though... just having a great ability isn't everything.
Politoed and Ninetales are primarily used for their weather, but they can do other things for their team as well. Like what you already said, they can provide support via burn, toxic, phazing, etc. Ninetales isn't complete dead-weight after setting the sun, he can still burn something or phaze. The things they can do outside of setting up weather is partially the reason why Politoed is S-rank and why Ninetales is below. Choice specs Politoed and Choice Scarf Politoed is actually a thing with an OU analysis. Ninetales with a choice item isn't so much. Politoed has greater bulk, greater Sp. atk and arguably a better movepool than Ninetales. Plus what you already said, Politoed's typing isn't bad like Ninetales'.
Out of all the OU weather starters, which one needs the most support? Ninetales. He appreciates spin support the most (due to his SR weakness) and he appreciates trapping support (because he has the least survivability out of the OU weather starters and 1v1 against the weather starters usually means a dead Ninetales). I get that his sun support helps his team out a lot, but again, so does any kind of weather support. The main difference between sun teams and sand teams or rain teams is that sun teams have never been nerfed (or at least I don't recall it being nerfed). The banning of Excadrill and Swift swim + Drizzle and Tornadus-T is a testament of just how powerful sand teams and rain teams were. Sun teams never experienced such a ban because they simply weren't as powerful as the other two weathers. Even now though, sand support and rain support is still nice to have.
It's not surprising that water attacks don't do much damage in the sun. For two of those calcs, you even faced Politoed against pokemon that resist his water attacks in the sun. I don't think Ninetales' fire blast in the rain against a politoed will do much damage either.
Yeah... Ninetales was in NU too until he got drought.
No weather starter is complete dead weight after setting up their respective weather. Politoed too can contribute to his rain team with encore support, a defensive set, or even a choice set (which may overlap with Keldeo's role). The real difference Politoed and Ninetales have (aside from their weather) is that Politoed has better stats tailored for a weather starter. That is... better bulk, better Sp. atk, and slower speed. And Politoed's typing is just flat out better than Ninetales'. Of course, being mono-fire has its advantages, like you said, such as checking Volcarona, but ultimately... mono-water > mono-fire.
Ninetales isn't just weak to SR. He has the least bulk out of the OU weather starters, a poor typing, a shabby move pool, and has the greatest speed (a stat which is detrimental for a weather starter) out of the weather starters. His sun support may be great, but you can't just laugh off all those faults, and Ninetales has a TON of faults.
All those pokemon that rely on sun need Ninetales to set it up. Their effectiveness is greatly diminished in rain or sand. Unfortunately for Ninetales, he just so happens to be weak to all of the other OU weather starters' STAB attacks. He also just so happens to have the least bulk out of them. He also just so happens to be THE OU weather starter most vulnerable to hazards. Ninetales will have an extremely hard time winning any weather war on his own, which is why he loves spin support and trapping support. Without that support, Ninetales is unlikely to win any weather war.
Sun is arguably the best weather in OU. Arguably. It's not arguable that Ninetales needs the most support out of the OU weather starters. And sun is only arguably the best weather because Sand and rain teams got nerfed when Excadrill, Tornadus-T, and Drizzle + Swift swim got banned. Even after the ban, rain is still arguably the best weather. Keldeo, an S-rank pokemon, greatly appreciates having his water stab dealing 50% more damage. Plenty of steel type pokemon love reducing their fire weakness under rain. Tentacruel and Toxicroak love the extra healing they get from the rain. Rain is arguably the best weather. It's not arguable that Politoed doesn't need as much support as Ninetales. It's not arguable that Hippo and Tyranitar have a ton more utility than Ninetales after setting up their respective weather. Stoutland and Sandslash can abuse the sand with sand rush if they want to.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Weatherless can demolish rain if it wants to be, tell me a weatherless team that isn't a shithole of a team yet manages to check sawsbuck sun completely (sawsbuck often can run enough HP evs for mamoswine and weavile ice shard not to kill).
Sun pressures all types of playstyles, rain is not versatile enough as a playstyle so it can get pretty much checked by 1 or 2 pokemon while most sun teams aren't (seriously, it's 2013, if you're running sun with NOTHING to deal with heatran, then I don't know what to say). Ttar is a great pokemon that gets an awesome ability, comparing it to toed and ninetales is comparing a dinosaur to 2 pit bulls. Both stoutland and sandslash have questionable uses in OU, Ttar is mainly used to check a variety of different pokemon and take down other weathers.
Regardless, I was wondering what would happen to Chomper for S, but since I got derailed and noone else replied, I guess everybody's neutral on it
I would like to propose Blastoise be C rank as it spins and functions much like tentacruel in the rain with rain dish. And can be a valuable spinner and wallcant be trapped effectively by dug trio that being said it doesn't have recovery very little offensive presence and can be hit super effectively by grass attacks over all a solid pokemon and decent spinner but little to no offensive presence and walled/destroyed by the to most common spinn blockers over all is a solid c tier poke no higher no lower
Honestly, I've actually used Blastoise in rain stall before, and the only key advantages it has over Tentacruel is that it can spin against ground types like Hippowdon and Landorus-T, and it can Roar. In every other way, it's out classed by Tentacruel. Tentacruel has better typing, speed, and can easily get past Jellicent, something that Blastoise can only dream of. I think Blastoise is fine where it is at D rank, as it has a niche, but it's a very small one.
Blastoise isn't even ranked and the one key advantage it has is not being able to be trapped and destroyed by dug trio along with better physical bulk Yes tentacruel outclasses it Greatly but it's niches are in my opinion good enough to be c rank as it can with support wall a lot of physical attackers and a non rain dish can even go on the offensive with a choice specs/scarf water spout in the rain yes it's a small niche and done better by others but I still think especially with the lack of viable spinners in ou to at least be above d rank
TrippingRocks This isn't an argument about which weather is better thank you very much. The fact that sun never got nerfed doesn't change the fact that Ninetales is an A rank Pokemon. Rain boosted the STAB of Swift Swim abusers, and Sand had an abuser with just the right tools to sweep easily.
I do agree about the fact that Ninetales needs more support than Politoed though. However, the definition of an A rank Pokemon is that it can do it's job most of the time, but can sometimes give free turns or needs some support. Nine tales fits the bill perfectly, and although it's worst at doing this. Than Politoed is, that's why Politoed is S and Ninetales is A rank.
Ninetales can also run a surprisingly effective offensive set that makes it surprisingly hard to switch into between sun boosted STAB, Sunny Day, and Solarbeam, as said by the posts before me.
I do agree about the fact that Ninetales needs more support than Politoed though. However, the definition of an A rank Pokemon is that it can do it's job most of the time, but can sometimes give free turns or needs some support. Nine tales fits the bill perfectly, and although it's worst at doing this. Than Politoed is, that's why Politoed is S and Ninetales is A rank.
Ninetales can also run a surprisingly effective offensive set that makes it surprisingly hard to switch into between sun boosted STAB, Sunny Day, and Solarbeam, as said by the posts before me.
Ha, I only just realized it isn't ranked at all. Anyway, you're right about not being trapped by Dugtrio, but I don't think this should push Blastoise up to C rank, and you should never be using offensive Blastoise, as it's severely out classed by Starmie.
D rank is for Pokemon that have a small niche, but are more trouble than their worth. Small niche? Spins but doesn't get hit super effectively by ground. Also has rain dish. A scarf or specs set could also be a niche, but honestly who uses blastoise for more than spinning ( and it's outclassed by ShootinStarmie). For the most part however, you want to use tentacruel for it's poison typing and better bulk. Blastoise just gets worn down too easily and is easily spinblocked (also add as on monotonous water typing to rain teams), which is why it's more trouble than it's worth most of the time.
Yes he is outclassed by other pokes such as tentacruel but he has some advantages that I believe should make him c tier such as A he cannot be trapped and revenge killed by dugtrio B has higher physical bulk then tentacruel C it's not ground or psychic weak like tenta D it can phase with moves such as roar and dragon tail E it has foresight for a guaranteed spin and F nothing really likes taking a rain boosted water spout. Look I'm not saying it's better than tentacruel or starmie I acknowledge it's worse hence it being uu even then it's not like I'm asking S tier or anything just C as it's niches and not much needed support gives it a spot in c
I'm arguing for Ninetales to move down from A+ to A.
And I'm saying that it's D rank because it has a small niche, but is usually more trouble than it's worth, which is exactly what D Rank is. You're not reading the definitions for each tier. Specs Water attacks are simply outright outclassed by Keldeo, Politoed, and even Jellicent.
I think that Ninetales is one of the better supporters of A rank due to bringing sun, willowisp, roar, powerful STAB in sun, and even being able to be an offensive threat, as I've said before, but the fact that sun opens up so much is important.
Blastoise doesnt have an ou analysis, it has no significant usage in the tier and is completely outclassed by the resident spinners. I see no reason to bother even addind it to the list. If the point is to say ''hey this thing sucks, dont use it'', its better to not add it to begin with.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
That basically describes my arguement is that it has crippling flaws that prevent it from doing its job and is greatly outclassed but even then when pulled of rights it can do its job sometimes even better then it's counterparts yet even then for the most part it's outclassed it still has some stuff that go for it that the others don't that should make it C rank
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
Small niche? Check. Noticable flaws? Check. More trouble than it's worth? Check. Double check.
And yeah, it doesn't even have an OU analysis and is completely outclassed by both Starmie and Tentacruel. It's fine with no ranking or D ranking.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
So, any potential of bringing back chomp-4-S? Like seriously, it mainly died out because most people said they agreed, or they eventually quit trying to argue against it, so wonder how much people still are in support of it (I know spinda might be)
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Fine then let's put it In D at least give it a ranking
Im saying latias for S. It can sweep through most of OU with some sets (especially the CM set) it needs little support to actually do this, and it has many different sets you can use. This actually fits S. You could have specs, scarf, CM, ect. The flaws I've noticed are sucker punch, ttar, and that's all I can think of for now. Does anyone agree?
Although I do like Latias a lot, and think that it's better than Latios, it gives the opposition too many free turns at times. The CM set is initally very weak and you have to find just the right moment to come in, setup, and sweep ( the opponents team has to be weakened).
Latias's flaws, unfortunately, cannot be ignored, and as S rank says, they aren't completely migitated by it's strengths. A rank is good enough for it, as it can 1. Do it's job effectively and most of the time whether it be CM, LO, etc. 2. Give the opponent free turns at times 3. Be very dangerous given the right moments. And 4. Has flaws that needs some support.
Eh, I just think it's too easily stopped and eliminated by popular Pokemon. Scizor, Tyranitar, and Jirachi all stop Latias cold, and Tyranitar / Scizor can even eliminate it from the game with Pursuit. Then there's the fact that Latias isn't exactly versatile, as the only two sets I ever see are Sub CM, and LO bulky attacker. I dunno, S rank to mean just means you can chuck this Pokemon on your team and do well, or it supports the team so much. I don't think Latias can claim this.
I have recently tried HP fire with it on a Sun Team, and boy, it's great. Jirachi falls after 1 CM to it and scizor is OHKOed anyway, dealing with 2 counters right off the bat. I don't even use Sub CM, I use recover CM. It works most of the time. Maybe it is only A, but I do think it definitely needs to be considered for S. I think it's probably the best Dragon around. I guess it does give free turns, but I have seen little. Just send it in against a special attacker, use CM, and well done, your likely to win.
If it were that easy, Volcqrona and friends would be broken. There are still things that can check Latias, and Heatran and Tyranitar wall it. the fact that Latias just can't hit hard enough is what gives it free turns. Add on risky defensive typing, being able to be pursuit trapped, and the number of toxics running around, and you'll see that Latias has many flaws. Albeit the strengths it has, the flaws are just too much for it, which is why it's only A rank. LO Latias is a different case, but for the most part has the same flaws, except it can hit hard off the bat, but it's prone to being easily checked afterwards.
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