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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Spinda

    Spinda

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    Fire Punch 20.529% ( for reference: Calm Mind 16.723% )

    Also, I RARELY see lure jirachi without hp fire or fire punch..
    and it's like the most common rachi set right now
  2. Spinda

    Spinda

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    "there's nothing you can do about it except "apply offensive pressure," which we all know works great against stall (hint: those Spikes are still going up)."

    I used to play no spinner sun a lot ( got top 10 on the smogon PO server with it back when Deoxys-D teams ran rampant ), and let me just say.. No, those spikes aren't going up. Ninetales alone pressures the majority of hazard setters and fast taunters are no spinner sun staples, which is also why it doesn't get destroyed by custapskarm teams, no spin sun is incredibly prediction reliant, but it's also really fun and it can be used to great success.
  3. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I'm assuming you're trolling but just in case you aren't, it's rank is A+ based on being an offensive threat. It has like 3 safe switch-ins, one being in UU, one being at the bottom of OU, and the other being Jirachi. It's speed allows it to outpace a ton of pokemon and thanks to Magic Guard it can keep its sash intact without worry.
  4. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs
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    I don't really see how that's trolling. The majority of Alakazam run Focus Sash, a set designed to be a revenge killer for offensive teams to cover a wide variety of opposing offensive Pokemon. Such a set could be considered a support Pokemon of sorts, and I would actually agree that a big reason for Alakazam's rank is due that form of offensive support.
    Hulavuta and Spirit like this.
  5. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    More like a super specialized niche only Alakazam can run with the unique combination of his ability and uber speed stat coupled with a solid movepool but capable of A rank (unlike other niches) because he has near 100% success rate with it. You know it's there, you just know it'll come in on a revenge and fuck it shit up, but you're helpless to hinder it in any way. It can just go back out unscathed and come back to harass you, no matter what the field conditions are.
    G-Von, Arash, Hulavuta and 2 others like this.
  6. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast I'll be back soon!
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    Yeah, all Spikes setters besides Omastar or Qwilfish are neutral or worse to Sun, but that doesn't change the fact that Sun is often forced to concede a layer of hazards if something doesn't have the tools to dispose of a specific hazard setter on the field at that very instant. Using the team of Tales / Lando / Hydreigon / Lilligant / Heatran / Dragonite I brought up earlier, Landorus-T and Lilligant (needs Ice Beam next gen y/y) both didn't have a way to touch many common Spikes users outside of Sleep Powder, and Outrage is an easy move to set Spikes against. There are ways to alleviate this through teambuilding and smart play, but the truth is that Spikes can still go up against even the most offensive of Sun teams.

    Also, Scolipede and Froslass are niche but pro Spikes setters B)
  7. Tesung

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    I regret the bad scarfer thing, cuz that is more personal presence. And while it is fast, it has no way of boosting. Any team with a starmie keldeo lati jolteon hp ice gengar alakazam and any almost any scarfer wont have too big of chomp problems, while other sweeper, like voclarona breloom dnite etc can beat their checks if they boost far enough or with the right move/item, while garchomp has no way around that speed. And while none of those can switch in safely, they can all easily revenge. Now I'm not saying that garchomp is a bad mon, just that it is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. Now, if it got rock polish, damn double dance chomp would be a threat
    trc likes this.
  8. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @ Choice Specs
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    Actually, one of the most common items on Garchomp, Yache Berry, lets it beat all of the Pokémon you mentioned bar Latios and Alakazam (though it CAN break its sash, which is huge). None of those Pokémon can OHKO with an Ice-type move when Garchomp has Yache Berry, making it a fantastic lure for those mons. As for Latios and Latias, the former is forced to use Draco Meteor, which means it gives an easy switch to something like Tyranitar (a common partner to Garchomp). All things considered, I think you're greatly underestimating what is by far the most consistently great Dragon in OU.
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  9. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    Icicle Spear.
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  10. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @ Choice Specs
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    He never once mentioned Mamoswine, so I don't know why you're bringing it into the conversation. I said none of those Pokémon can OHKO...and they can't. But since you have brought up Mamoswine, I will rebut. Mamoswine is OHKOed by Earthquake at +2. Assuming you come in on Garchomp as it Swords Dances, or after it has gotten a kill at +2, you have to Ice Shard. If you don't, you get KOed. the only situation where Mamo would be able to get off an Icicle Spear is if it still has its Focus Sash intact. But if there's a Mamoswine at full health on your opponent's team and you don't know its item, I don't know why you would set up Garchomp anyway. Point is that Yache Berry beats all of the Pokémon that he mentioned, and even beats most Mamoswine that rely on Ice Shard to revenge kill Garchomp.

    Some calcs for emphasis:

    252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 179-213 (50 - 59.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 257-304 (71.78 - 84.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 204-242 (56.98 - 67.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 229-270 (63.96 - 75.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 234-276 (65.36 - 77.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    So please, anyone saying that Garchomp is beaten by any team that has one of these Pokémon is sorely mistaken. This isn't even considering Sub Salac Garchomp, which is incredibly deadly when used alongside something like Magnezone. How can anyone seriously say that Garchomp can't sweep. That is simply absurd.
  11. X5Dragon

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    I don't think anyone is saying Garchomp can't sweep and of course it can boost, but it's problem is it's speed. 102 is great, but when you remember the Starmies, Keldeo, Latis, Zam, etc. I think it's best sets are the Scarfed ones, since it has great bulk even if it faces another Scarfer, and the SR lead set since it can even outspeed Jolly Mamo with an Adamant nature and lay down the rocks as well as putting immediate offensive pressure on the opponent from the go.

    Edit: After reading the past 2 pages apparently people are saying that it can't sweep or boost, welp. In my humble opinion a pokemon doesn't need to have a bazallion sets are to be unpredictable (not saying Chomp isn't) to be S or A+ tier.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  12. Halcyon.

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    Actually, that's exactly what he said. I agree that its Scarf set is amazing, as is the SR set (which is the first set in the new analysis update that's being worked on right now), but its sweeping potential should not be underestimated, especially when it can lure and KO big threats like Starmie, Keldeo, and other Ice-type-coverage Pokémon. All I'm saying is that Garchomp's Speed is not bad, and with a Yache Berry, it doesn't care about most of those Pokémon. Obviously if a team has Keldeo and Starmie on it, for example, then Garchomp won't sweep. But that could be said of a team with Scarf Keldeo and Mamoswine for Dragonite or Jolteon and Scarf Keldeo; it doesn't make it any less potent of a sweeper.
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  13. alexwolf

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    SD Chomp can even get past SashZam if it carries Dual Chop, something that very few seewpers can do. Lum Berry + Dual Chop + SD Chomp is also amazing to deal with all the annoying SashLooms around (irrelevant but it's one of the perks of Lead Chomp).
  14. Wizarus

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    Garchomp is a good A+ mon, but I just don't see it hanging with Politoed and Tyranitar(which entire playstyles revolve around), Jirachi(Which is so versatile, nearly every team can benefit from it), or Keldeo(which has almost no counters, no priority weakness, amazing speed tier, and can sweep rather easily when paired with Politoed or Tyranitar, who are S-Tier pokemon).
  15. Pikachuu

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    Eh I don't agree with Jirach in S-rank I personally find it easy to force it out. Maybe it's because I almost always use defensive Rotom-W on all my teams but yeah I just don't think it's that good the Scarf set gets outsped by the extremely common Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Terrakion, also Scarfchomp. The Calm Mind set in the rain usually loses to Band Ttar or perish song Celebi. Paralflinch loses to Gliscor or Landorus-T or Heatran or Rotom-W. SpD sets are beaten by the same Pokemon I listed. Don't get me wrong it's a great Pokemon in it's own right but I just don't think it fits up there with Tyranitar, Politoed and Keldeo. I honestly think Kyurem-B is a better candidate for S-rank, I think anyone who has used it right would agree with me.
  16. Shayhok

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    Don't forget about the mix set, which is very popular lately and can run Energy Ball to beat Rotom-W / Gastrodon / etc.
  17. Jaiho

    Jaiho bandy legged troll

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    Considering that you named different counters to each set, Jirachi clearly is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. At team preview, you don't know what set it has, which makes it so amazing. Is your Scarfchomp going to kill that Jirachi with EQ, or will a Shuca Berry activate, and ice punch leaving you down a revenge killer? Will Celebi wall the SubCM set, or is a scarf U-turn destroy it? Can Jellicent predict a Body Slam, or will it let SubCM set up all over it, before getting hit up with a T-bolt? Can your Rotom-W safely come in, or is it 2HKOed by Energy Ball after rocks?

    The mere presence of Jirachi forces its opponents to make a judgement of what set it might be, and mispredicting could be fatal. Yes Jirachi has its checks, but so does every other Pokemon, including the other S-ranks.
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  18. Jukain

    Jukain ~.~
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    Someone mentioned SpD Scizor beating SubCM. You parafuse it...and it dies eventually.
  19. Prosecutor Godot

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    I've used Kyurem-Black pretty extensively actually, and I think A-Rank is just fine for it. S-Rank is home to metagame titans that need no support. Take Keldeo for example; sure there are pokemon that have good synergy with it, Politoed can power up it's Hydro Pump and Tyranitar can pursuit trap it's checks, but Keldeo can function just fine without either of those things. Then, look at the description for A-Rank:

    Does this not fit Kyurem-Black perfectly? Kyurem-Black is capable of 2HKOing anything in the tier, yeah but it requires support if you want it to work well. A spinner is wise to have, as well as answers to top threats that force Kyurem-B out when it's not behind a sub like faster dragons, Breloom, Keldeo, etc. Not only that, but it has flaws that make it sort of inconsistent. It's bad defensive typing comes to bite it in the ass, it's weak to most priorities, all Hazards, it's not fast, and it has an awkward movepool that doesn't work well with it's stat spread. So no, I think Kyurem-Black is a solid A-Rank.
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  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Thank you all guys!
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    Only Water Pulse CM Jirachi can parafuse, and this set is admittedly problematic for SpD Scizor, but fortunately it is not even used enough to show up in the usage stats.
  21. Tesung

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    First of all, I never said that chomp is bad. I love the sr set and it is a solid scarfer. And I guess the right chomp cAn sweep the right team, but it isn't a reliable sweeper at all. And yache, for the most part, doesn't cause a sweep, it causes and extra kill, which is great, but unlike Pashto volc beating scarf Keldeo or u turn landorus beating celebi, it ( usually) won't amount to a sweep. And I know, there are scenarios where yache could let it sweep like if starmie is the only thing left that outspeeds it or something, but for the most part it is good for a surprise kill. I am fine to end this argument as we both think gar chomp is a good mon, you just think it is a bit better. Sorry bout the typing, autocorrect sux.

    Speaking of wall breakers, specially based sub cube is disgustingly good, wrecks stall, and is not useless vs offense as has been advertised. It also made me stop using my sand semi stall team, as once I got high on the ladder where people use it, it just wrecked me, despite scarf rachi and a ferro, two"checks" to cube. The choice sets are solid as we'll , but it is really that set that makes it s IMO. Simply put, it has no counters
  22. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Chomp could very well be S-rank in due time. As he proves himself in tournament settings, the competitive consensus of him will get better and better until enough established players are vouching for him to rank among the best of the best. If Jirachi is now considered S-rank, there's definitely room for Chomp.
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  23. Torterragatr

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    I finally had some time to read the rest of this thread, and after reading everyone's for-the-most-part great posts, I realized I didn't know as much as I thought I did (I already knew Jirachi wasn't banned for paraflinch, but there's no doubt that boosted its versatility; most of your other points I concede) about OU battling. I haven't joined any tournaments for a while, so I will sure try to make time for those because they are much better to learn about playing at higher levels than just ladder battling. I still don't think Garchomp is really S-rank, but I'm fine however it goes and I will not post here again until I think I'm qualified. Thanks to you all for helping me realize this! :-D
  24. Stone Alchemist

    Stone Alchemist

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    Guess what: Specially Defensive Scizor is not used at all.

    Code:
    | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 21.940% |
    | Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0 8.152% |
    | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 6.670% |
    | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 6.520% |
    | Adamant:248/252/0/0/0/8 4.781% |
    | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.137% |
    | Other 47.800% |
    It may be somewhere in that 47.8%... But I doubt it's much. Since Roost is used on most Specially Defensive Scizor, I'll derive from that.

    Code:
    | Roost 14.696% |
    So you're just making your own arguement invalid because specially defensive scizor isn't common at all, at 15% (and mind, some of them aren't even specially defensive).
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Thank you all guys!
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    It doesn't matter if it used or not, it matters that you have the option to use it to deal with most common Jirachi sets. SpD Scizor is a viable and solid set in OU, regardless of how much it is used (usage does not equal to viability), so if you want a solid all-around Jirachi check you can use it.
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