The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    @ShootinStarmie in the future don't use usage-based arguments -- they prove nothing and are not reflective of the Pokemon's capabilities.

    Well in any case, @alexwolf, saying Adamant Garchomp is viable is like saying Modest Keldeo is viable -- a pretty funny joke. Giving up outrunning non-Scarf Salamence, +Spd Kyurem-B, Timid Volcarona...I don't find that acceptable, especially when each of these Pokemon can hit you hard. CB Haxorus is pretty damn strong, but it faces competition from Bandchomp for all the other reasons you mentioned. It's slightly less powerful -- Adamant is not acceptable though.

    Haxorus also boasts access to Superpower, which lets it smack threats like Ferrothorn and even Skarmory harder. It also gets access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, with more Speed and power than Dragonite and a lack of a 4x Ice weakness.

    B-tier, I would say, is perfect for it.
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  2. Asek

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    Specs Modest Keld in rain takes a gigantic shit on everything though >:(

    In all seriousness though haxorus's access to superpower to beat both ferro and skarm is probably worse than Garchomps access to fire blast / flamethrower with usable SpA to 2HKO both of these 2 the majority of the time w/o any stat drops. Dragon Dance and Swords Dance are both outclassed by Draonite and Garchomp respectively. Double Dance and DD + Taunt are 2 niche sets that haxorus can utilize, and Taunt + DD was pretty good not so long ago to just set up pokemon that would normals status / PHaze you.

    Don't be so quick to hate on adamant chomp, adamant would still outspeed the vast majority of the slower defensive threats that you would bring CB Outrage / EQ in to soften up and when you get a good switch in the damage boost from the adamant nature is pretty noticeable. Haxorus being more resistant to mamoswine and donpan(lol) and access to really situational move combos are the only things i really see it has over chomp and other dragons in the tier in general
  3. ShootingStarmie

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    I was never using usage to determine Latias' capabilities. I was using usage to try and show how Toxic, Refresh, and HP Fighting are not used enough to consider as a set. I know usage doesn't mean much when talking about how viable a Pokemon is, but it is useful to see what their standard sets are.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  4. DoABarrelRoll

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    no

    just no

    252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 265-312 (81.79 - 96.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 298-351 (91.97 - 108.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 304-359 (84.91 - 100.27%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 341-402 (95.25 - 112.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



    You also said that Latias can use HP Fighting to eliminate Tyranitar.

    252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 177-208 (43.81 - 51.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

    Even hp fighting won't stop her from being pursuit trapped.

    (since you were talking about Specs Latias)
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 306-360 (79.27 - 93.26%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 343-405 (88.86 - 104.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 168-200 (47.72 - 56.81%) -- 90.23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 148-176 (42.04 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 247-291 (72.01 - 84.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 277-327 (80.75 - 95.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    So as you can see, latios can gain some OHKOs and 2HKOs with the help of Stealth Rock, something Latias can't do.
  5. ThunderBlunder

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    Base post for Bisharp to rise to C or B-
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    It doesn't matter if you like Adamant CB Garchomp or not Jukain, the fact is that it's just better than CB Adamant Haxorus. If you use Jolly then Haxorus stops being completely outclassed as then Garchomp cannot OHKO Sash Breloom, physically defensive Hippo, and some other pokes i am missing atm. Also Superpower is nothing Garchomp is jealous of, as not only does it not even come close to 2HKOing Skarmory (while CB Aqua Tail from Chomp has 40% chance to do so after SR) but Garchomp can also 2HKO Ferrothorn with a STAB move that doesn't drop your stats.

    And why did you bring up SD and DD sets, i was talking about CB.
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  7. Spinda

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    CB Haxorus is frequently adamant anyway, and Adamant Chomp is only really missing out on +Spe base 90s and 95s compared to Jolly Haxorus, both of which are sorta irrelevant considering I personally rarely see Jolly Luke/Kyu-B.. meanwhile STAB EQ is HUGE.

    I've also sorta taken a liking to Modest Specs Keldeo after a certain person convinced me to use it, OHKOing breloom with hydro pump outside of rain is just insane, and I felt like I was only really missing out on garchomp, who felt rather uncomfortable trying to revenge it anyway unless it's scarfed and Keldeo's weakened. I was only seeing Scarf or Modest Agility Thundurus-T sets too, I honestly didn't feel like I was missing out on any important speed tiers.

    tl;dr: quit being a hater, jukain
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  8. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    It's admittedly an advantage that both Pokemon have, but I didn't bother acknowledging Adamant Chomp because you lose out on a pretty big speed advantage by ditching Jolly, it's pretty much inconceivable just to troll a Pokemon. Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is significantly better(hence it's gigantic rank gap), but I was mostly rating Haxorus on it's own merits and it's honestly not that bad. Absolutely willing to reverse the change if enough people disagree with me though.
  9. BKC

    BKC sorrow flew on black wings
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    Garchomp isn't as strong and doesn't get Dragon Dance / Taunt / Superpower. For the record I personally wouldn't use Adamant CB Chomp, the thought of being outsped by Timid Volcarona/Thundurus-T and the increasingly popular mixed/CM Jirachi (all 3 of which Chomp should have no problems beating the shit out of) really isn't fun... Obviously Garchomp is a way better Pokemon and has a million different things going for it but Haxorus isn't completely outclassed. It's fine in B.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
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  10. ThunderBlunder

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    I was pretty surprised to See Bisharp is D rank, when it definitely deserves B- rank, or at least C Rank. Bisharp is actually really good right now in this meta since it has such a strong priority and eats up offense after their keld / breloom dies and even something like Keldeo is taking 31-37% from Life Orb Sucker Punch.Bisharp really shines on Hyper Offense Custap Skarm teams as it becomes a very good midgame wallbreaker / Late Game sweeper with +2 LO Sucker Punch and can check pokemon like Starmie which is the best spinner against Hyper Offense teams. Another reason that Bisharp should be risen is because it's typing is extremely useful in this meta. For example Scarf Salamence does 35-42% with Scarf Outrage to Bisharp which in return can set up a Swords Dance and start running through a team. Bisharp's ability also comes into play here as one of the premier physically defensive pivots in BW2 OU is Landorus-T which actually helps Bisharp due to Defiant as if Landorus-T comes in on Bisharp as it Swords Dances, it is no longer a safe switchin seeing as the bulkiest of Landorus-Ts are Ohkoed by +3 Sucker Punch [+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 351-413 (91.88 - 108.11%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.] Bisharp is also pretty effective vs Stall. For Example, the standard Sand Stall of Heatran / Jellicent / Hippowdon / Forretress / Tyranitar / Landorus-T is completely demolished by Bisharp seeing as the best thing to take it on is Scarf Tyranitar which after switching into SR and Spikes Twice is at 50% which is a guranteed OHKO with +2 Sucker Punch. Of course Layers aren't always going to be present but everything else on this type of stall is completely ravaged by Bisharp as the only other thing that can take a hit is Forretress which cannot touch Bisharp besides doing 16-19% with Volt switch. This is all I can think of from the top of my head but if needed I will post more comments on Bisharp. I'll leave some calcs below to show how strong Bisharp is at +2.

    Show Hide

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Scizor: 86 - 101.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 90.09 - 106.18%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Dragonite: 90.93 - 106.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 95.69 - 112.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 96.01 - 113.28%
    +3 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 96.69 - 113.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 97.4 - 115.28%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 97.92 - 115.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 100.8 - 118.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 103.58 - 122.58%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Gastrodon: 103.75 - 122.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 105.58 - 124.58%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 106.43 - 125.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 106.74 - 125.8%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 162.2 - 191.63%
    +3 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 164.95 - 194.25%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 165.43 - 195.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 165.91 - 195.49%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 177.66 - 209.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 180.19 - 212.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 184.14 - 217.39%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 190.07 - 224.11%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 190.74 - 224.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 196.86 - 231.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 199.5 - 234.81%
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  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
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    Haxorus at 100% doesn't mind DDing on Scarf Keldeo since it takes SS relatively better as well as HP Ice (isnt it a 3hko, especially Yache DD Haxy?)

    Chomp is better but Haxorus isn't 100% outclassed. Mold breaker is pretty cool since you don't have to lock yourself into outrage on Wash / Gar as well.


    Edit: yeah s'mores has proven Bisharp is good. (I hope it doesn't become a thing though... Then it'd be the new "creative"-not pokemon).
  12. OiawesomeDG

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    LMAO HABAN CHOMP MAKING A RETURN IN BW2 META. Nah but seriously, you get the OHKO after rocks, so who gives a single fuck when stealth rock is near obligitory on any calc not on a spinner or a poke commonly pared with a spinner (stop calcing volcarona after rocks people, we get it, 50% volcarona isn't living any hits.)

    Also, Ferro on HP fire walls both after leftovers damage basically, no point in making a calc for it, especially considering when it can just see you locked yourself into HP fire and switch out to toed anyway. As there is an obvious damage shift from Ebelt and Specs.

    Nice to see you didn't calc Specs Draco in sand for Band ttar, making sure that calc looks important, when in reality it's living your hits anyway (come on people, I even listed Ttar as a counter if you don't have HP fighting, don't attempt to say Latios can actually get around it without it either, if Latios was that insane it would be ran more often)

    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 229-270 (59.32 - 69.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock yes it hits for 70% at max possible, but it's not the average and you have to deal with the crippling -2 after.

    Also, scizor isn't switching in on rain is LOL anyway since it gets 2HKOD by HP fire in the rain anyway. Regardless, I think most latias sets are better than latios *HIGHLY DEPENDANT ON YOUR PLAYSTYLE* in the general idea of twin dragons, but then again, I could be the nonsensical prick I invision myself to be, whatever. Just my thoughts on Latios over Latias, and the general ramblings of a mad man :]
  13. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
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    @DoABarrelRoll

    You did something wrong there is no way in hell Specs Latios OHKOs 180 Hp TTar after SR. Did you forget sand in that calc, or are you high? :p

    EDIT: poster above me Latias and Latios play different roles (one is bulkier one is stronger) so it solely relies on the team's needs one is not better than the other on a neutral plane imo.
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  14. DoABarrelRoll

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    Haban Chomp is not a gimmick. What if I have enough Ice resists and Chomp doesn't need a Yache Berry? With that item Chomp can take a weaker dragon-type attack and OHKO that pesky Salamence, Dragonite, Latias etc.

    That calc with Ferro and HP Fire was factoring in leftovers.

    Yes, I forgot to include the sandstorm vs ttar, but now I found that LO Surf from Latias doesn't 2HKO BandTar, where as Specs Surf from Latios does 2HKO it 100% without Stealth Rock (no, please don't bring in Specs Latias, there's a reason it's not being used: it's totally outclassed by her brother) and who the fuck runs HP Fighting on Lati@s anyway?

    How is Scizor not switching in on rain? It'll predict the Specs / LO Draco and take out your Latias with band bullet punch, which is a 2hko. At -2, Hidden Power Fire does ~30% to scizor in rain, which means that Draco Meteor + HP Fire is not a 2hko on it even after stealth rock damage.

    And how are most Latias sets better than Latios sets? No one uses Scarf Latias, no one uses Specs Latias, and no one uses physical Latias. Hell, I'd say offensive CM Latios > offensive CM Latias.
  15. Spinda

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    Actually, Specs and Scarf Latias are pretty good, you're really underestimating how useful that bulk is in the current metagame, while it still maintains great power on specs. Scarf Latias can switch into a e-belt icy wind and still attack it back, people are much less likely to expect it to be scarfed than a latios. It also has healing wish, which does give it an interesting niche as a scarf pokemon.
    The main thing is the bulk though, I don't neccesarily need the extra power Specs Latios brings me on my Specs Latias teams as Specs Latias already has insanely powerful draco meteors, the bulk helps me more.

    I'm by no means saying it outclasses Specs Latios, and Latios is most likely a better option on most teams, but I know from first hand that Specs Latias has better utility on some teams than Latios would, so it's not completely outclassed at all.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  16. Chou Toshio

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    Healing Wish is so cool on Scarf mons. It's kind of funny considering how underrated it's been-- always. But that move literally wins game. Scarf Latias is always going to have major issues with its Pursuit Weakness, but it's no problem that Latios doesn't also share. I'd have to say that the usefulness of its bulk and the awesome power of Healing Wish at least puts it on par with latios for usefulness as a scarfer.

    (I still won't use either over Jirachi / Garchomp / 108 Speeder as my Scarfer though-- hate the Pursuit weak too much)
  17. Spinda

    Spinda

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    Yea Scarf Latios sucks anyway, SS just won't realise it
  18. BurningMan

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    Yeah this is something that always deters me from using the Latis as scarfers you really don't want your choice scarfer to be removed so easiely, unless you have like 2 other sweepers that can capitalize on a choice locked pursuit to keep up momentum and even then it can still spell doom for you. They also kinda suck as late-game sweepers because they lack a move to spam like Hydro Pump or CC, Dragon Pulse/Psyshock are just to weak and DMs stat drop force you out so cleaning up with them is often really difficult compared to Keldeo/Terrakion/Jirachi that can often muscle through a team with their stabs (or flinch chance in Jirachis case). Still their typing is often really good as glue and being able to outspeed everything else coupled with their repectable bulk can often make them viable choices if one can play around their pursuit weakness.
  19. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    Jirachi also gets Healing Wish...

    Just saying.

    I can see Bisharp as a clear C-Rank given the support from certain posters and my own experiences.

    Okay now...proposing Reuniclus for B+ Rank.

    Reuniclus was very prominent back in BW1, but with the introduction of threats like Genesect, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Landorus-T, Keldeo, and the general rise of Tyranitar and rain, it has been thought unable to keep up with the pace of the metagame. It is likely for this, I understand, that it is currently languishing in B Tier.

    However, recently I have found that Reuniclus is just getting better and better, with the banning of Landorus making it even better. Reuniclus can run an extremely effective and devastating OTR set that ravages offensive teams -- it is still accounted for, because when you run into it and get swept, you sure as hell throw something on that can beat it. Choice Scarf Jirachi and the Lati twins are common adaptions. With a set capable of turning the tables on offensive teams that partners well with another slow hard hitter -- Conkeldurr -- Reuniclus becomes nothing short of amazing. This is not to mention that it has Magic Guard, which, if you fodder it to some status in the early-game, enables it to absorb sleep without suffering the detrimental effects of other status. Its movepool has all of the tools this set needs to function, and Reuniclus is more than bulky enough to take the odd whilst setting up.

    If it was just for this OTR set, I would be inclined to vote in favor of it staying the B Tier. However, another set exists, and that is the Calm Mind variant. It is criminally underrated in this current metagame. We're talking about a Bug-weak Pokemon that's not even OHKOed by a Choice Band Scizor's U-turn. It can even take a Crunch from some Tyranitar in a pinch. With max/max Bold, Reuniclus can set up on Pokemon such as non-SD/CB Landorus-T, Terrakion, Choice-locked Keldeo, and many more. Stall has a ton of trouble with it, as it is immune to all forms of passive damage. Perish Song users and things like bulky Swords Dance Scizor and Skill Swap Blissey (yes it's plenty viable), as well as phazers (most can't even take a boosted Psyshock/Focus Blast anyway). This set is even dangerous for offensive teams, as once the threats of rain-boosted Hydro Pumps and sun-boosted Fire Blasts are gone, as well as Pokemon that could KO it or Trick it, all it needs is a free switch-in -- which can easily be granted by smart play, a U-turn/Volt Switch, or a resisted hit -- to start setting up and going to town.

    Pokemon like Jirachi, Latias, Scizor, and Tyranitar, among others, are common enough to keep Reuniclus out of any A Tier, but its traits make it more than deserving of B+, imo.
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  20. Spinda

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    Don't get me wrong, I've been using Reuniclus a lot lately too, mostly the calm mind set.. But I still think it's rather underwhelming and just requires ridiculous support, Magic Guard and a fighting resist make it such a blessing on hail I just need to throw it on every hail team I make, but 110/75/85 defenses is just underwhelming in practice on a poke like reuniclus :/.
    And OTR Reuniclus is usually just deadweight midgame which really doesn't fit my playstyle, it's a great cleaner though.

    I think B fits it rather well.
  21. Halcyon.

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    Nominating Sawsbuck for B+ rank

    Sawsbuck is definitely deserving of B rank. No, not just because Sawsbuck-Winter is the most majestic Pokémon to ever grace the game, it also happens to be one of the best Chlorophyll sweepers available to sun teams. Sun teams have many common weaknesses that can be difficult for them to bypass. Things like Heatran, Volcarona, and Calm Mind Latias can be a huge problem for most sun teams, and many of them are forced to run Pokémon like Dugtrio or Scarf Garchomp just to get through them. But that's what makes Sawsbuck such a great choice for sun teams. It can take down all of those Pokémon with the right move. A +2 Jump Kick can take out Air Balloon Heatran, while a Nature Power can OHKO ones without it. Double Edge (even when unboosted) can OHKO offensive Latias after Stealth Rock, whereas a Megahorn can OHKO the Calm Mind set. Offensive Volcarona is easily OHKO'd by an unboosted Double Edge, or Nature Power after Stealth Rock. In fact, Sawsbuck's ability to take out Heatran makes it a great partner for other Chlorphyll sweepers and Volcarona, since they can't normally do that themselves.

    I would compare Sawsbuck to Stoutland in sand, which is currently B+. Actually, Sawsbuck has quite a few advantages over Stoutland. It's notably faster, which means that running an Adamant nature isn't detrimental, and isn't outsped by Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion (or Latios, OR Venusaur). It also gets a beautiful secondary STAB that lets it run Life Orb effectively, since Horn Leech can recover off damage taken by it and Double Edge recoil. Finally, it has Swords Dance to boost its already great Attack to insane levels, letting it OHKO Landorus-T with Double Edge after a SD boost and Stealth Rock. So if Stoutland is B+, then I definitely think Sawsbuck deserves to join him.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
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  22. OiawesomeDG

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    I never said Haban chomp was a gimmick, I just was making a remark that how it's barely used ever since that sudden rise pre-BW1 ban. Also, imo physical DD latios is bad, it's a lure set, once a person sees DD, they can likely just realize to switch out from rachi and into skarm. Also considering the speed tier and the surprise factor is the only reason to use it over any other DDer, Mence is breaking through pretty much everything's defenses after a DD and either fire blast or the infamous fire fang, Dragonite has the amazing multiscale, Espeed and crazy amounts of attack, oh that and multiscale. It should only be used with an amount of support to the point where your team would rather enjoy the lack of pressure and have a Fire Blast DD Mence over it so you can have more slots left for other things not purely for supporting your DDer.

    ALso LOL TRYING TO THINK SURF 2HKOS ARE LEGITIMATE IN THIS METAGAME. Latios may 2HKO but surf, but this is a water type infested metagame, trying to use surf to 2HKO something that is going to switch in on anything but surf later on only ends you up with : a) a jellicent in your face laughing at anything you can do to it, b) a LO starmie ready to spin away your hazards oor hit anything you dare switch in for a LO analytic STAB hydro pump, or , probably one of the most threatening c)A Specs Keldeo ready to 2HKO your entire team

    Now what LO latias can do in this situation (since your obviously to ignorant to consider the existence of such a set as scarf and specs latias) is : a) switch up moves and 2HKO jellicent with psyshock as opposed to specs latios who just sits there and gets 2HKOd with shadow ball while healing jellicent off with water absorbed surfs (0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 120-144 (39.73 - 47.68%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO after weather VS 0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 138-164 (45.84 - 54.48%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after weather) and b) switch up moves and OHKO starmie with draco as starmie would overpredict in both scene's to 2HKO a switch in while latias kills it instead of specstios sitting there just trying to get chip damage through surf or switching out only to get a switch in heavily damage by LO Hydro, and C) do what you would do in B except replace LO Hydro Pump being a hard hit for your team with Ebelt or Specs Hydro (since scarf keldeo hasn't been famed as much, even though I personally love how scarf keldeo works and the amount of things it can check) anyway

    A switch in means it can switch in to all of the pokemon's move USUALLY unless specified for one move in something like a smogon analysis. Also, Latios does worse because all it can do is fire off weak -2 draco meteors if it gets choice locked into such a move now enough said, if you really want to argue scizor is a good switch in to something with 110 SpA, Life orb and HP Fire, move this to VM as at this point it's pointless arguing for the sake of winning an argument that at the end of the day is based off your playstyle, anyway Expect this post to be edited with sawsbuck B+ seconding and thoughts on exceggutor and it's potential ranking

    I really feel like this argument for Latios for/NOT for S is going nowhere until PK gaming says "enough" or his thoughts
  23. Ryuuki

    Ryuuki

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    92
    I'm going to agree with Halcyon and but say Sawsbuck for B rank instead. While Sawsbuck can hit as hard as a truck in sun after a swords dance almost everything that he cannot OHKO will KO him back. I do also found it troublesome to switch in with Sawsbuck as he will most likely die to life orb recoil if he switches in to an attack. Scizor also happens beats the heck out of him but your team should be able to handle a Scizor. But as a lategame sweeper or just to soften up teams and prepare for something else to sweep he's really good at doing his job.
    Shurtugal likes this.
  24. ogasian

    ogasian

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2013
    Messages:
    434
    IMO, Lilligant should be B tier. Not for its QD sweeper set but for its sun support set. Its access to Healing Wish, strongth stab move, Sleep Powder, and incredible speed is simply amazing. Here is the set:

    Lilligant@Life Orb
    252 spattck/196 speed/60 defense
    Modest
    Chlorophyll

    Leaf Storm
    HP Ice
    Healing Wish
    Sleep Powder

    Boasting the fastest sleep in the OU metagame, Lilligant can reliably cripple one pokemon 75% of the time. Why u no spore Lily? Anyway, midgame, it functions as a wallbreaker of sorts, annihilating pokes with lo leaf storm and sometimes hp ice. Late game, however, is where Lilligant really shines. Lilligant is down to one percent. All you have is a half dead Ninetales left. Your opponent laughs as he clicks outage on his Kyurem Black. Sleep Powder is futile, you would be breaking sleep clause. Your only check to Cube has been eliminated by Wobbufet. You click healing wish, tank the Outrage with Scizor, and proceed to rape his last two pokes with Bullet Punch. What is mean is, Lilligant is so fucking clutch. It has essentially three roles- emergency check all mon, wallbreaker, and suicide mon.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
    Darth Missingno. likes this.
  25. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,266
    Yeah Saws' longevity isn't as nice as Stoutland's (and Stoutland HAS no way of healing, which implies Saws gets worn down a lot). Horn Leach (or w/e) is hard to spam or use reliably while hazards and LO really take its toll.

    However, Halcon is right: Saws deserves better.

    B Rank imo!
    OiawesomeDG likes this.

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