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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
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    First of all i am not arguing against Jirachi being in S Rank and i don't know where you got that from. Second, usage has no bearing for the Pokemon that you are using to cover threats, only for the Pokemon that is the threat. When building a team and you need a check to Jirachi, you can slap SpD Scizor on the team and be fine. Why would you care about usage anyway? SpD Scizor is a viable set in OU with the right support and this is what matters. However, when looking which threats your team wants to cover, this is where usage matters. You want to have the most used threats covered, not obscure sets and Pokemon.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  2. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @Choice Specs
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    Because its SDef set isn't the only one that is considered when talking about Jirachi. It still has a Scarf set, a Sub Calm Mind set, a Lead Shuca Berry set, and many others that are all at the pinnacle of OU threats. Sure, it wishes that it had a Water resist, but at the same time, it has an arguably just as important Dragon resist that other walls like Celebi lack. Regardless, it is the combination of the versatility and viability of all the different Jirachi sets that makes it an S rank mon.

    Furthermore, I'm throwing my support behind Garchomp for S rank as well. I find that most of my teams use it. There's rarely a time I can't use a Garchomp to great effect considering that it also has many roles that it can play, and does all of them as well as or better than any other Pokémon in the tier. I'd ay it's similar to Jirachi in that sense; therefore it deserve S rank as well, in my opinion.
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  3. Numera

    Numera

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    Im beginning to think Sharpedo is A worthy. After using it for a while in rain, I realised that it's mixed set is capable of sweeping through most of OU, something that a pokemon needs to be A. It has also been successful most of the time for me, like 80% of the time. I find it better than Chlorophyll Venusaur, Garchomp and possibly even better than scizor. (It's such a good wallbreaker) It is capable of alot, and I don't see how it is B. In my eyes, it suites A perfectly.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  4. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    Why do we bother to question a rank change that was anticipated for a year and supported with good arguments and just happened under 3 weeks ago, seriously guys, why didn't you bring this up when the debate WAS going on?

    Also

    Are you seriously comparing sharpedo to 3 titans that literally defined what solid pokemon are? Scizor was always a good pokemon throughout BW and could check and counter so many threats while still gaining momentum with U-turn and revenging so much threats with Bullet Punch, scizor near defined revenge killing this gen.

    Garchomp is probably the most solid (stat wise) pokemon in OU, it has awesome bulk, only facing competition in raw bulk from Kyurem B, it's 130 attack with it's amazing STAB coupled with Swords Dance really makes it hard to switch into, it has one of the best speed tiers in BW OU *for something that has that bulk and power* letting it revenge a lot of stuff with it's scarf sets and even banded sets. Ithas 2 fantastic lure sets in yache and haban SD chomp which beats most ways of revenging it, and it's bulk lets it run both a lead set and an subsalac set. there's even a possibility of chompers going S rank!

    Chloro Venu defined sun offense this metagame along with volcarona, crushing teams with it's combination of balanced bulk, amazing speed under sun, and sheer power after a growth. I could say more but I'd hate to be glorifying venu for like half a post

    Anyway, that brings me to my point, sharpedo is dependant on rain to get kills most of the time, is so damn frail, and gets revenged by any good scarfer pretty much if it's under 2+ boosts, and it's also weak to every type of hazard and status, which status immunity is a huge boon for shit like chomp and venu since the fact that you can't toxic nor leech seed venu means that you can't force passive damage to him aside from hazards under the sun while you can't touch garchomp's beautiful speed stat by para'ing him, while you can do all of those to pedo, which is a small but true fact, sharpedo also lacks coverageit only has STABS/protect/EQ, it's kind of a shallow physical movepool, more thoughts later, but just letting you know I highly disagee
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  5. Numera

    Numera

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    Very valid point you have there. Not only that, but you don't need all physical moves, it can run an excellent mixed set imo. I have used all 3 of those pokemon, maybe I went abit too far with scizor but with venusaur it's better. I think this because venusaur absolutely needs Sun, while sharpedo only wants rain, it's not a must. Anyways getting speed boost is easy, just protect, OHKO (often) non scarfed pokemon, reach x2,then outspeed most/all pokemon in OU and hopefully sweep. It breaks through a ton of walls, too. I'd like to see any Dragon survive ice beam from it. Latios and latias can, but you have crunch.
  6. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn in rain: 26.13 - 30.96%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 37.79 - 44.7%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Jirachi: 32.17 - 37.87%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 30.88 - 37%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 28.53 - 34.18%
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 40.22 - 47.87%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 39.8 - 47.13%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 39.84 - 47.13%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 47.52 - 56.18%
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 44.75 - 53.19%

    etc.

    Sharpedo is dependant on rain to get kills, also, sharpedo is killed by anything that can survive one hit from it, this includes yache chomp, multiscale nite, kyuBe, and more. Sharpedo isn't a top tier threat at all, it's low bulk and relativly high risk factor makes it very much a poor choice over lets say, something like gatr which has gotten some recognition in OU because of rain.

    Also,

    Not even going to say how flawed this is, you cannot OHKO everything in your path you're barely OHKOing anything actually semi OU relevant without your precious reliance on rain, also, it does not break " a ton of walls" any team WILL have something to destroy sharpedo just by pure chance do to it's frailty and low powered BP moves/STABs. It only works as a late game cleaner in which case why the hell would you not use something like gatr or keldeo as a late game cleaner? they have less reliance on their abilities and can preform WAY more consistantly, especially due to their bulk

    overall, sharpedo is B rank, lets leave it that way, the fact that you are comparing pedo to top tier threats like chlorosaur and SDchomp shows how flawed this argument IS.

    Regardless, ending my arguments here since I'd rather argue something I actually want to talk about like S chomper
  7. Numera

    Numera

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    Hydro pump in rain. Try that on the calc!

    S Chomper? I don't see how garchomp is S worthy. It can sweep through alot of OU, yes, but most of the time it needs support. I don't see how a garchomp can sweep all on its own like keldeo can.

    If anything, I don't see much else to change, maybe put metagross in D since it has little niche in OU.
  8. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    if your using hydro pump instead of physical water STAB, then that ruins the point of using pedo over something like starmie or keldeo

    also, explain to me the support that chomper needs to sweep, keldeo actually requires rain SUPPORT, so it isn't even sweeping by itself, but then again, this really isn't worth my time to argue
  9. Numera

    Numera

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    Mixed set.

    Normally, it needs pokemon that deal with faster ice types, pokemon with ice type moves that outspeed, ect. Anyway, it's not any better than something like Dragonite, Salamence, ect. I reckon the best Dragon in OU atm is latias, not garchomp.
  10. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    Latias is a close second, but chomp takes the cake, yache and haban chomp are known sets especially in higher play, letting chomp play around it.

    Overall, I just can't deal with the crap that we're ignoring the flaws of anything that is currently S rank and we are being way too damn stupidly picky with what we make S, so far I have barely seen half a decent legitimate argument of why chompers doesn't have a shot at S :/ seriously guys, chomp is the literal definition of good,
  11. Numera

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    Would you consider Latias S? I certainly would, with great speed, little needed support, excellent special stats, lots of options and sets to use, and the ability to use calm mind to sweep through most of OU. It indeed does has its flaws, like being vulnerable to t-tar, but reflect type can stop that.
  12. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    we already discussed S latias, I myself was the one that nominated it, but it in turn had way too much flaws to be even thought of S by the more "recognized" OU players, some people even considered dropping it to A instead of A+, but then there was a nub who said C or even D rank which I just laughed at for hours
  13. Tesung

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    Well I guess subsalac aqua tail yache haban life orb chomp is hard to revenge kill. Unfortunately it can't have all those items and moves. And while it can have any one, it can beat one check, not all. And btw put that Keldeo in the rain and it kills, not to mentio that a full health chomp isnt usually going to happen. To say that it fits on any team is absolutely ridiculous. If you have a spinner and rocks, I think that there is no reason to use it over dnite, as dnite is bulkier with scale and can boost its speed. And btw I'm not bashing chomp I think it's an awesome
    Poke just that if a team has two faster pokes it won't sweep unlike dnite or volcarona that can boost speed or scizor or vreloom with priority.




    Edit: no reason to use it over dnite implies that dnite outclasses it, I just think that dnite is usually better with a spinner, although that does take more support than chomp needs.
  14. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    If you actually look at my posts, you know that I am differentiating all of those sets, plus I NEVER argue LO chomp, wonder where you get that from. "Put keldeo in the rain and it kills" give chomp SD, a yache berry or a haban berry and aqua tail and it kills, seriously, this is a bad argument for keeping something s.

    Are you serious, you're saying you will say that garchomp is outclassed by any single thing in OU? especially when it has ground STAB, 102 base speed and can boost it's attack by 2 stages instead of just one? I'm done, you know what, forget it, I'm done with this crap, people are not even trying

    Someone make another *legitimate* argument and then I'll bother, but for now, I'm just done, you know what forget it
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  15. gvmgvm40

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    What?

    Garchomp and Dragonite are 2 very different Pokemon with potentially different roles. Garchomp has more immediate power and more speed; while Dragonite has better bulk and versatility. To say one outclasses or is better than another is stupid.
  16. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    Js dragonite loses the bulk argument after multiscale, just a quick note
  17. Halcyon.

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    Ah yes, the classic "Pokémon A can't use items/moves V, W, X, Y, and Z all at the same time so it is actually quite easy to deal with!" Unfortunately, that argument doesn't really hold any water. While its true that my Garchomp can't run all those moves at once, your opponent's Garchomp can be running any one of those moves or items that help it beat its counters. This means that simply carrying Skarmory isn't going to be enough to beat Garchomp. However, let's say that I'm using Yache Berry Garchomp with Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast, and Swords Dance. What can actually beat that set? off the top of my head, Bronzong, Hippowdon, and Latios are the only things that can reliably deal with that set (and even then, Bronzong gets worn down by Fire Blast since it has no recovery, and Hippowdon is easily 2HKOed by Outrage at +2, so it has to be at full health to completely check it. It also has to choose between Whirlwinding Chomp out and Slacking Off to regain the huge chunk of damage lost by Outrage at +2. Using Whirlwind leaves it vulnerable the next time Garchomp comes in, while using Slack Off just means it will risk being 2HKOed regardless. Latios is only a check as it can't switch in on an Outrage (obviously), but it can outspeed and KO with Draco Meteor. However, simply pairing Garchomp with Tyranitar or Scizor means that latios will be pressured to not revenge kill Garchomp, most likely forcing the opponent to use Starmie or Keldeo instead. But if they use one of them, they will die thanks to Yache Berry the following turn. So I would say that Garchomp has much fewer safe switch-ins thank you are implying, and that is only with one set!

    But I'm not advocating Garchomp because it sweeps through the metagame without any support. Rather, I think it should be S rank because it can sweep a good portion of the metagame without much support AND it has a number of other sets that allow it to take on other roles as well. Banded Garchomp is a fantastic wallbreaker, and can be used well in tandem with other Dragons to wear down Pokémon like Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Skarmory clear the way for a late-game sweep. The Scarf set is simply one of the best revenge killers in the game, able to take out Latios and Latias, Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, Volcarona, Jirachi, Terrakion (it beats Terrakion 1v1!), and others is simply amazing. It also has Dual Chop to beat Alakazam, which is a huge pain for offensive teams, and can live any of its hits besides HP Ice (which is, admittedly, the most common Hidden Power on Alakazam). It's Stealth Rock set is a Godsend to offensive teams, since it is able to provide Stealth Rock while also putting major offensive pressure on the opponent right from the start. Its bulky sets with Rocky Helmet are useful because it takes a whopping 29% from any Pokémon dumb enough to hit it with a contact move, and is probably the best VoltTurn counter in the tier. Hell, it can even run a classic Chain Chomp set and lure in its physical wall counters like Landorus-T, only to be crushed the next turn by a Draco Meteor. Garchomp is one of the most versatile Pokémon in the tier—I'd even say it's almost as versatile as Jirachi—and it definitely deserves a spot in S rank, in my opinion. As I said before, there is rarely a team I build that couldn't benefit from a Garchomp on it somewhere.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
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  18. azureleaf17

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    I think one of Garchomp's greatest strengths is that not much can stop it from doing what you want it to do for your team. If you need a physical set-up sweeper, Yache/Haban SD set is nearly unsurpassed, and it is very common for a reason. By finding ONE free turn, either by bringing it in after a teammate goes down or on an Electric-type attack, it WILL set up and it WILL leave at least one and most likely two or more Pokemon either KO'ed or severely crippled. I personally use Life Orb SD on HO teams, which may be overkill but still works incredibly well because of the lack of switching on such a playstyle and the corresponding ability to bring it in whenever I want.

    The Scarf set is even more common, and is probably the best physically-based revenge killer in OU (except for Terrakion) because of its resistance to the most common entry hazard and combination of speed and power. What sets it apart from Terrakion is its fantastic Ground/Dragon STABs vs. arguably better but still different Rock/Fighting STABs, and its better defenses and lack of weaknesses to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, which are more common and less predictable than Ice Shard. Its support sets are uncommon but very usable and viable because of its surprisingly good bulk, high speed, and few but useful resistances and immunities; it's one of the fastest Stealth Rock setters in OU, and even with minimal Attack investment, its STABs still punch holes in things for its teammates to clean up later.

    Its crippling weakness to Ice-type attacks seems to be the only argument against it, but it's not hard to offset that with teammates that resist Ice, especially because Water-types Pokemon that resist Ice- and the corresponding Water-type attacks are incredibly viable in a rain-dominated tier. That's not only MINIMAL support, but "support" that'll probably happen even if you don't think about it during team building. Though I'm a guy that adamantly refuses to use certain high-tier Pokemon because of weird personal aesthetic purposes (I HATE Jellicent and have never used it because it's so UGLY despite how good it is >.<) Garchomp is one of those Pokemon that I begrudgingly use because it is an extremely strong Pokemon that rarely fails to pull off its job however I use it on my team. It's very, very difficult to stop when used correctly.

    Not to mention it looks pretty cool >:)
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  19. Tesung

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    I give up on trying to have a reasonable argument. I specifically put that edit in because I felt like my post implied that dnite outclassed it and wanted to make sure it was clear that I did not think that. However it feels as if everyone is against me, so I will admit defeat and accept s rank chomp. If someone wanted to do me a favor and give me a quick team based around ad chomp that would be appreciated as maybe I have been doing it wrong. Anyways how bout kyube for s, sub set is just so op
  20. TrippingRocks

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    I think Ninetales should be moved from A+ to A. As the only drought user in OU, Ninetales has some big shoes to fill in and commands an entire type of play style, sun-teams. However, this alone does not make him worthy of A+. All the other OU weather starters (Hippo, Tyranitar, and Politoed) stand a great chance against Ninetales and can fulfill other roles other than summoning their respective weather. I don't believe Hippo and Ninetales should be in the same rank. Hippo can set up rocks, phaze, and act as a physical or mixed wall. While Ninetales can phaze as well, Hippo is clearly the superior phazer thanks to his greater bulk and better defensive typing. Mono-fire simply isn't a good typing to have in OU. Ninetales is vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards and even takes extra damage from rocks. Being weak to the ever common ground and water attacks doesn't do any favors for Ninetales either. His stats are decidedly average with his best stat being Sp. def and speed, each being 100 a piece. While speed is normally a good thing, Ninetales' speed may actually be detrimental. As THE fastest weather starter in the game, Ninetales will never get his weather first turn against opposing weather starters unless he's holding an iron ball or something. Ninetales' movepool is nothing to write home about either. The best support moves he has is Hypnosis (a move with very shaky accuracy), Will-O-Wisp (another move with shaky accuracy), Sunny Day (so he can set up the sun against without switching in and out), and Roar (to phaze stuff). In other words, a mediocre move pool.

    While fire-pokemon appreciate getting their moves beefed up with the sun, the biggest reason to run sun-teams would be due to chlorophyll users. The best and most popular chlorophyll user would be Venasaur, who could easily sweep teams with sun support and a one-turn set up. Venasaur, the poster-boy of sun team, is only A rank. I am doubtful that Ninetales' rank should exceed Venasaur's rank seeing as how Venasaur is the main reason why sun teams are successful. Ninetales himself can barely do anything. Any weather war with Ninetales is an up-hill battle.
  21. Numera

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    I understand it, but no way is winning the weather war with Sun an "up-hill battle". It's in A because it needs support to do this. What support, you ask? Weather trapper heatran. It's so great, and more often than not, you can win the weather war. This is why it is A+, it needs support. But I agree on A+ to A.
  22. magic123

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    How is Politoed fulfilling any other roles than summoning it's weather?Tyranitar and Hippo has been OU ever since they have been introduced(well,some stupid people put Hippo to UU once,but lets not talk about that now),but Politoed isn't really doing anything other than being a weather inducer.It's Physical Wall set is outdone by Jellicent and Vapoureon,and it's Specs and Scarf set is HEAVILY outclassed by Keldeo(lets not talk about Encore).

    Lets say,for some odd reason in Gen 6,weather becomes much less useful than it was.Sand's main niche is that it deters other weather from working with an advantage,and so,in that scenario,I believe that Tyranitar will drop from S rank before Politoed even though Politoed is a useless pile of poop other than summoning the weather.Why?Because it is the usefulness of the weather that counts as their inducer's viability ranking,not what their inducers can do,and since Sand at that moment will become less useful than Rain,Tyranitar will drop before Toed.

    Therefore,comparing what Ninetales can do versus other inducers or other top-teir pokemon will not determine it's viability,but rather,what Sun as a playstyle can do against the forms of playstyles (weatherless,Rainoffense, Sandbalance,stall,HO etc.) will determine Ninetales's viability.

    I have been running a sunstall team based around a Volcarona sweep of Ninetales/Duggy/Chansey/Sand Force Hippowdon/Starmie/Volcarona,and I have been having decent success with a ranking of 1980+ ACRE.Most of the time,Ninetales is dead weight because of what you said,but the sun it provides is very useful at combatting other playstyles.

    So,if Ninetales isn't A+,then Politoed shouldn't be S either.

    That just what I think anyway.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
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  23. Numera

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    Actully, politoed can do more than just bring rain. It's specs set can be devastating with hydro pump. Ninetales kinda fails to do this, however. Unlike poli, ttar and hippo, it's not gonna win the weather war on its own, it needs support. (In this case, weather trapper tran.)
  24. Tesung

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    If we were judging tales on its ability to be effective in the ou meta, it would be e rank. However, the support it brings is tremendous enough to make up for it. Think about it, half of most sun teams are almost dead weight, between ninetales herself, a bouncer/spinner, and some kind of trapper(although trapper heat ran is awesome). However, these sun teams are still able to be successful as that half of a team has such a huge advantage brought to them. Outside of sun, sawsbuck is nu, yet in the sun it is probably the best revenge killer and a great sweeper. The same can be said for almost any other chlorophyll sweeper, including venusaur. And as a player of weather less balance/ offense, there is nothing more scary than a volcarona in the sun with a free turn of setup, when I realize " oh shit! my scarf keldeo can't revenge it. The benefits of sun are just that greAt
  25. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Banned deucer.

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    Specs Politoed isn't really a threat most of the time, it's drizzzle itself, I actually switch sdef tales INTO hydro pumps, because unlike keld, it's not that strong after being neutered by sun:
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ninetales in sun: 182-216 (52 - 61.71%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sawsbuck in sun: 84-99 (27.81 - 32.78%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur in sun: 63-74 (19.74 - 23.19%) -- possible 5HKO
    you get the point by now

    Politoed's only viable because of drizzle, face it, you can argue all you want but we know why that thing jumped from DPPt NU to BW OU: Drizzle.
    Taking anything else into consideration other than it's support for the rest of it's team defeats the point of it being up there, Toed is S because it brings the most mindless "powerful" weather (imo sun is better but these are the ramblings of a mad man) into play, not because of it's specs set, heck defensive toed contributes more because it simply doesn't overlap with things like keldeo and can actually support the team by toxicing and scald burning possibly dangerous foes to the team.

    Ninetales has 2 very important things that it brings that it contributes to drought teams: checking volcarona (sdef set) and *fast* WoW (fast support set or sdef set)

    Ninetales's Special Defensive set or even it's defensive set from it's analysis (sdef tales isn't on the analysis page qq ;-;) can combat volcarona, probably one of the biggest threats for sun, why? because if sun doesn't get up SR, then +2 volc basically is a win for the foe. Ninetales, Heatran and even Arcanine all check volcarona, making htem all valuable assets, but why waste a another slot on checking volc when you have something that's your weather starter that can check it, this means not only does ninetales support a team with drought, but it also can support it's sun teams with checking volcarona and other threats.

    All in all, Ninetales bringing the best and most powerful weather in OU should be enough for it to be S, people just like to whine about how SR weakness is the apocalypse honestly(no offense). Sawsbuck, Venusaur, Lilligant and more actually have a purpose in OU due to this thing, and hell are they amazing. Sawsbuck and Venusaur would be A and S respectively if ninetales was S, because lets admit it, when have you not been threatened by those two when a competent player is using them? Seriously, sawsbuck can actually run excadrill's old spread from back when it was OU and make scarfs irrelevant from your opposition, +2 buck HURTS, seriously, (jump kick is what I recommend because baloontran and ferrothorn are bitches :[) even unboosted LO sawsbuck hurts offense pretty hard, OHKOing DD dnite after SR and offensive QD volcarona regularly:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 243-289 (75 - 89.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 331-391 (106.08 - 125.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Overall, sun is possibly the BEST current weather in OU due to how much different chloromons and fire mons you can abuse while still remaining viable, Sawsbuck and Venusaur absolutely demolish teams, victini and darmanitan break insane amount of walls, volcarona makes OU tremble in the proper conditions, etc.

    BUt as long as people like to say "SRSRSRSRSRSR", we will never have S rank ninetales, but hey, I sure as hell will NOT let it drop to A rank
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