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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. ogasian

    ogasian

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    This post has just made a lot of people very happy. #EarlyChristmas

    Besides that I think that the lsit is really solid. Im still kinda thinking that Lilligant should move up, but other than that, GREat jOB!!!!!
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  2. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    No matter how much I disagree with S-Rachi, I am truly 100% in love with this GIF :p

    EDIT: also, now that we have that issue out of the way, I got an idea I found from the PU viability ranking threads in the OM threads a long time ago: write ups, basically there is a mini paragraph explaining why the pokemon is a certain rank, these are of course made by the community and submitted to the host of the rankings. This explains changes n' stuff to people who maybe weren't here or are new to this thinking, explanations really do help and are awesome to have in the long run.
    dwarfstar and ogasian like this.
  3. FluffyStantler

    FluffyStantler Banned deucer.

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    [​IMG]
  4. G-Von

    G-Von

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    After almost a whole year of waiting, debating, and complete bitching, the one that we call Jirachi has officially been moved up to S rank (I was going to make a reply to PK's original reply to me but work the past two days has delayed that even though I'm on break doing this shit). I honestly never believed that this day would come, but I am happy I was able to witness it while still active on the forums. PK, you gave me half a chub after I read you moved Jirachi up to S-rank. I know you are also editing some of the lower tiers but I'm sure once those are done, the tiers will look exactly how they should with the end of BW coming soon.
    PK Gaming likes this.
  5. Stone Alchemist

    Stone Alchemist

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    YES!
  6. magic123

    magic123

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    YAY!!!!!

    Only one small problem:it won't stay up there for long.With 6th Gen coming up,steel loses it's resistance to dark,so Jirachi will start getting pursuit trapped by Scizor and possibly even Scarf Tyranitar.It's Sp.Def set will no longer wall Gengar and Alakazam like it used to.

    Well,I should really not talk about that right now,because this thread is for the viability ranking of the pokemon in the current metagame.Its fun to predict what will happen,anyways.
  7. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    We'll have to see. Being resistant to Fairy-type (which I think is a little over-hyped, it seems more like a balance patch to the typing chart than a really OVERWHLEMING type) *MIGHT* counteract its weakness to Dark- and Ghost- type moves. We'll find out soon enough if the new generation is friendly to our favorite pixie.

    But yes, we are digressing. Back to discussing viability and tiering, y'all x)
  8. SomeDrunkRockLee

    SomeDrunkRockLee

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    From the definition of A Rank:


    I think there should probably be a slight modification to the definition that includes some variation of "supporting its team" etc. Mainly the reason I say this is Ninetales, which, while it can't sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame (just no, lol), it provides incredible team support when used effectively.

    That being said, I'd advocate moving Ninetales from A+ to A: in order for it to work effectively, not only do teams need a spinner, but for Ninetales to truly function at its best, it requires that teams carry a lure for opposing weather starters. This support requires *two members* of a sun team to be *dedicated* to supporting Ninetales, which I hardly feel is befitting of an A+ rank Pokemon.

    I'd also like to start up a little discussion on Heatran. Basically, from what I can tell, the main arguments against using Heatran are that it doesn't fit well with the current metagame, and it's got a water weakness (again, doesn't fit well with the current metagame). On the flip side, Heatran provides incredible support to sun and sand teams, practically walling Sun Teams on its own if running a specially defensive set, and keeping the weather sunny with its magma trapper set; it or dugtrio (or a similar politoed lure, like Giga Drain Volca or something) are a staple on every viable sun team right now. Additionally, while it has become much rarer, the scarf set still has a niche in the current meta, although admittedly its primary value is surprise. A specs set is also viable in sun, providing a ridiculously overpowered overheat/fire blast.

    Specifically, Heatran, while it doesn't do it as often as it should be able to, can run a quite potent offensive set alongside defensive and team supporting varieties. This versatility, alongside a metagame that is relatively weak to offensive Heatran in sun or sand, make Heatran somewhat versatile and able to either power through or wall a significant portion of the metagame. I'm not suggesting any tier movement on Heatran, but I though I'd stir up a little discussion on it.

    Erm, yeah.
  9. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
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    Eh, I'm not suggesting that Heatran gets moved up, but I honestly think Heatran does very well vs. rain teams. I'm talking about the specially defensive set here mainly (although the offensive trapper set demolishes rain teams), as the SpDef set easily cripples common switch ins like Rotom-W, Politoed, Jellicent, and Keldeo. Toxic is such a good option on Heatran, as it cripples the bulky water types found on rain teams. Then there's the fact that Steel types like Jirachi, Scizor, and Ferrothorn thrive in the rain, all of which are countered by Heatran. Heatran is one of the few Pokemon that can claim to counter Rain Volc, Sub CM Jirachi, Latias, Specs Tornadus, and other rain sweepers, which seem to shit over most special walls.

    Heatran is incredible vs rain, and this is me speaking from personal experience.
  10. Mandeln

    Mandeln

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    A huge problem with heatran is that it's pretty foolish to use it if you run rain. In my eyes, that alone is enough to stop it from being moved up.

    EDIT: I actually disagree with this, and should have thought about that before I posted it. Oops.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  11. ogasian

    ogasian

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    Erm, its pretty foolish to run Tyrantitar if yoy run rain. So by your logic, Tyrantitar should be moved down. No, I think Heatran's problem is his inability to switch in to some of the top-ranked threats in the metagame. Lando, Chomp, Keldeo, Terrakion, Politoed, Rotom Wash, etc. The support it provides is undeniable though, and the fact that it forces sun teams to run something to deal with Heatran is pretty good. ShootinStarmie, Heatran is a bitch to Ferro, but The res of the team usually deals with t.
    Heatran is good, but not srank. I know thats what your saying, but saying it doesnt fit on raintrams is the reason is just wrong. Offensive sets are just too slow, though they are devastating when played correctly.
  12. Mandeln

    Mandeln

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    I agree, what I said was dumb, but I can't delete my post, so oh well.
  13. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Can we please stop saying sun NEEDs a spinner, I'm not saying I'm an all knowing god of pokemon nor sun teams, but we really need to keep an open mind, we can't see it's honestly a requirement, the fact that most sun teams have mons like sawsbuck or venusaur that destroy politoed or non sdef ttar(sdef ttar does meet an end to jump kick sawsbuck and horn leech sawsbuck though, oh and boosted/unboosted EQ venu, which has become a bit popular over time to deal with heatran) , and if we're sticking with common sense here, sun teams aren't carrying 6 fire types, just like how *good* rain teams aren't carrying 6 hydro spammers, the average sun team without a spinner is venu or another chloro/tales/lati@s or a*nother* special wall/fire type like tini or volc/good random mon like chomp or rachi/2nd chloro or 2nd fire type. That random mon or Lati@s slot is honestly WASTED by a spinner, lets admit it, the only good sun spinners right is forre(donphan is so meh imo) it gets wrecked by the fact that fire moves get boosted, and it in general can't preform consistantly with all the high power moves being thrown around with SR up not letting it switch in, spinners in general are hard to fit on teams these days. Overall, a spinner is only needed if your running something like, what, 4 total fire types? overall, most teams can keep offensive pressure up to the point where SR isn't set up, or the suicide lead SR setter is only getting it up and not getting another shot to move (custap skarm is really easy to beat imo if you can see it coming, people need to catch on to that) effectivly making the game 6-5, overall if your good enough, you don't need a spinner, standard sun venu/tales/fire abuse/fire abuse/fire abuse/last-slot-filler teams are really over played and bad these days, if your running a y' know, good enough sun team, you won't need a spinner. It's like saying using ttar ALWAYS requires a half decent psychic type, or running politoed requires a latias check (not counter because polittar is really a bad core, and the only rain counter to lati@s is sdef jirachi, since scizor gets 2HKOd by most variant's HP fires regardless), it's only true if your team is LARGELY weak to the specified problem (though I do suggest running scizor or rachi to check latias for rain teams though, latias is a damned threat to most-all rain teams), sure tales is SR weak, but picking a pokemon with 0 synergy on your team and is deadweight once the rocks have been spun/whatever other 1 job has been done that leaves you open to so much other stuff just to fix 1 minor problem on 1 unimportant pokemon on your team (lets admit it people, the only time you care about keeping your weather starter alive is when your either running ttar *in general* and the foe has a lati@s or when there is a weather war happening) is a bad choice for any team.

    **Edit: If I sound like a fanboy, feel free to call me out on it, since I'm the only damn person you'll see trying to say ninetales should be @ the same rank as toed n' ttar or at least not moved down :/
  14. Jaiho

    Jaiho haha xD !
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    Dude. Did you just say that any halfway good sun team doesn't need a spinner? is any sun team with a volcarona, victini or darmanitan bad? And ninetales very much appreciates spin support, since you know, it already has the hardest time winning the weather war (abomasnow doesn't count). Custap Skarm, the poster boy of HO, is guaranteed rocks against sun, and usually gets up two layers of hazards since really only max speed timid tales with will-o-wisp can force it to a single layer. Spinning also allows dugtrio to keep its sash, and dugtrio is an awesome poke to defeat heatran, t-tar, and weakened politoeds.

    Most spinners actually have pretty decent synergy with a sun team. Donphan is a kinda niche spinner, but it can check some of the physical attackers (i.e. terrakion) that pain sun teams. Forretress can lay down every hazard, and has a good typing to prevent multiple weaknesses to the same types as most sun pokes. Analytic LO Starmie offers precious BoltBeam coverage, and is a good check to rain. Hitmontop is even more niche than donphan, but it guarantees the spin with foresight.

    tl;dr your post is dumb
  15. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    If you actually read through half my post instead of misquoting me you would know I actually said any team stacking up to like 4 SR weaknesses is bad, and so using a spinner would only fix those teams, but other teams don't really NEED it like DrunkLee said (if your packing all victini, darm and volc at the same time with tales, then it's not really that good of a team, js). also Hitmontop is bad, donpan is meh, analytic starmie really doesn't offer much on sun teams as, it bnest STAB gets fucked, and it's really not checking anything sun teams have too much of a problem with *most sun teams have good enough rain checks already, no need to stack doubles* other than revenge killing terrak which most chloro-ers can already do :/. and Donphan is donphan, I don't know why that things gets usage let alone in sun teams, and yeah duggy is good to have it's sash intact, but lets be honest, your not going to keep duggies sash enough consistantly for it to be a SERIOUS issue. I'm responding to the fact that people said that sun NEEDS a spinner, so saying "it helps" is not even adressing the point of my post
  16. PDC

    PDC loveless
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    A spinner is needed on Sun. Ninetails would die so quickly it wouldn't even be funny. Don't kid yourself. Almost all solid or decent sun teams do need a spinner, its for way more than just the teammates.
  17. Alter

    Alter lab report
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    Every sun team needs a spinner?

    I completely disagree with Ninetales being moved down to A rank. It is the defining force of BW2 OU Sun teams and it is impossible to build one without Ninetales. Ninetales is the reason that so many Pokemon are powerful and need to be accounted for. The sheer power of offensive sun teams gives it a team advantage against almost every weatherless team due to the forces of some sun abusing Pokemon such as Volcarona, Venusaur, Victini and Sawsbuck. Ninetales itself brings all of these Pokemon into action while simultaneously halving the damage of water attacks and activating a boost in Fire-type moves' power. Even the Pokemon itself, Ninetales, has a few tricks up its sleeve as well. The defensive set (in my opinion its best set) is capable of impairing any physically-attacking Pokemon with its swift 100-base speed Will-o-Wisps. Despite attack investment, the power of a sun-boosted STAB Fire Blast can't be undermined either. Ninetales can also bring moves like Sunny Day to screw up Politoed and Tyranitar switch-ins as well, only forcing them to take more entry hazard damage. Obviously though, Ninetales isn't OU due to its movepool or stat distribution, rather due to the utility that Drought brings.

    Drought has such a heavy impact on the metagame it is hard to fathom why one would think it deserves a lower viability ranking. Many mention that Ninetales needs a large amount of support to work properly (e.g. spinners) but this is easily worth the trade that Drought brings. Furthermore, there are a plethora of Pokemon that can easily support Ninetales such as Forretress, Donphan, Xatu, Espeon, Cresselia and others. The description of A rank for support Pokemon is that "supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time". Ninetales easily does this and more. Not only do many Chlorophyll sweepers get access to Growth, but Growth's use is doubled under sun, meaning that you can essentially give a Pokemon three stats which are doubled in the space of a turn simply through the addition of Ninetales. If that's not "creating free turns easily" then I don't know what is.

    Keep Ninetales in A+.
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  18. Archifex

    Archifex

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    Nobody's arguing that the benefits of having sun up aren't immense, rather that as a weather inducer Ninetales is completely inferior to Politoed and Ttar, checks next to nothing in the tier, and has zero offensive presence. This means that, while the support Ninetales brings is awesome, it is rarely able to actually give the support with the plethora of sand and rain teams on the ladder. Even if you will-o on the switch to TTar a banded stone edge is going to rock you should you stay in, and if rocks are up as you switch out you will have to spin at some point, giving the oppponent free turns, etc etc. Rain teams have so much stuff that can set up on Ninetales it's not even funny, not to mention that if Politoed comes in for free and you don't have a Chansey something has to take a ton of damage if they're specs.

    Also, I think you understand the meaning of free turns. My understanding of it is giving your opponent a turn to do whatever they want, which is almost unavoidable with Ninetales when faced with a Heatran, Latias etc.
  19. Alter

    Alter lab report
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    And I'm arguing that its pros overcome its few cons...? What is your point meant to be? That you can only give a Pokemon's ranking viability based on what it can't do? Also, the way you worded 'Ninetales being a completely inferior weather inducer to TTar' is just ridiculous. They shouldn't even be compared in that they perform different roles and Ninetales brings weather that used in a much different manner to Sandstorm. The latter of which helps get rid of opposing weather while the former is meant to be abused for its qualities. Furthermore you're completely skewing that scenario so that a) rocks are up so you can't switch and b) you can't abuse the fact that your opposing is locked into a burnt rock type move. Lastly you say Rain teams have so much stuff that can set up on Ninetales that it's not funny... This is just an awful argument. Sun teams can set up on Rain as well. That also implies that I'm stupid enough just to leave Ninetales in all game rather than use it as a support mon for setting up sun and crippling opponents. Moreover, Ninetales has Roar to dismiss any setup sweepers as well.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
    Monte Cristo and Magcargo like this.
  20. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Honestly you should not be switching in ninetales into any other weather more than 2 times in general, all ninetales should really be switched in for against another weather is A) leading, B) setting up sun after the war has been one and C) emergencies, it's not worth risking the weather war just to get a 2 second sweep with +2 venusaur only for there to be a toed + switch ruining your fun and outside of weather tales really offers no assistances outside of emergencies like having to check opposing volc when heatran is down. However this does not make ninetales bad, roar, WoW and DROUGHT are all ninetales needs to be good, heck I'd argue toed is worse because it has lower speed to handle the multitude of fast threats in the current meta, and it can be set up on by any good set up sweeper, at least tales can roar CMlatias and other stuff, but I don't want people to whine about this tiny opinion of mine which really has 0 relevancy to this post's intended point. Regardless, tales has been A+ for quite a while, and "needs spinner" is a pretty shit argument for bringing a pokemon that makes entire playstyles viable down a rank, especially when it's not even a true one at that.
  21. TrippingRocks

    TrippingRocks

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    Spin support is beneficial for any Pokemon that doesn't have magic guard. However, spin support can be more beneficial to some pokemon than others. While Ninetales doesn't "need" spin support absolutely, his weakness to rocks and vulnerability to the other forms of hazards make spin support greatly desirable for him. If you're making a sun team, you'd probably have at least one other fire-type pokemon on your team and would also greatly appreciate spin support.

    Just because you don't plan on switching Ninetales in a lot doesn't change the fact that he's weak to stealth rocks, a disadvantage that none of the other OU weather starters have.

    Being on the A-rank tier is good. Clearly not as got as A+, but it's still good. Ninetales is a good pokemon, but when compared to the other OU weather starters, he kind of falls flat. His typing isn't so good for defense and his stats are decidedly mediocre. Ninetales may be fast, but as a weather starter, being faster isn't a good thing and he's the fastest weather starter there is. That means that when facing an opposing weather team, they'll always be able to get their weather up first turn. Ninetales has some supportive moves, but then again... you'd have to have a very barren move pool if you didn't have at least a couple supportive moves. Ninetales is most defnitely not better than Politoed. Politoed has better bulk, better Sp. atk, better typing (meaning no weakness to stealth rocks), and arguably a better move pool.
  22. Archifex

    Archifex

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    I'm not arguing that its pros don't overcome its cons; I've been laddering with a sun team of my own so I do know about Nintales' benefits and limitations. And no, it is not at all ridiculous to say that Ninetales is a worse weather inducer than TTar and Politoed, because I'm not talking about the weather itself, I'm referring to how good they are at actually summoning the weather. And as for you saying we shouldn't class a pokemon on what it can't do, yes we should- the criteria for an A rank supporting pokmemon is 'may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.'

    How is assuming rocks are up unreasonable? Getting hazards and pressuring the spinner / magic bouncer should be a priority when facing a sun team, and there's a good chance the Ttar would just set up rocks itself. And when you think about it there's very little commonly found on sun teams that can set up on a burnt stone edge- Forretress can get up hazards or spin, Venusaur can Growth but it's not going to be sweeping if you just let Ninetales die to SE, and Dugtrio can come in and trap if your opponent doesn't see it coming. That's all I can think of.

    Yes sun teams can set up on rain teams, but only once they have won the weather war. Rain teams typically have stuff like Tentacruel, Keldeo and Latias that will come in for free regardless of the weather. And yes Ninetales has Roar, but when are you going to Roar and risk the Dragonite being band not lum, Garchomp going straight for EQ, etc? In my experience of using Ninetales I only find myself roaring opposing Volcaronas and CM Latis when desperate, or when predicting their switch to rack up hazards damage. All in all, when using Ninetales, at least half your team tends to end being dedicated to winning weather wars, and when a supporting mon needs that much support itself, it doesn't deserve to be A+ in my opinion.

    edit: sorry for being a bit brief in my last post; it led to a few misunderstandings
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
  23. silenced

    silenced

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    I've actually tried to run sun teams without rapid spinners before. I'd hesitate to state anything conclusive because I'm not a particularly great (let alone active) battler, but it is possible. The first attempt I did of this I used two pokemon (an offensive celebi and offensive latias) with healing wish to get around the limited number of times ninetales can switch into stealth rock, while allowing me to play slightly more risky with the three sweepers I was using on that team (Venusaur, Scarftran and a Subsalac terrakion as a back-up), since healing wish could be used to mitigate a misplay from using them or to heal them back up when trying to wall break against stall teams. Clearly this team was nowhere near perfect (no priority and the blobs were never fun to deal with) but its an example nonetheless.

    Otherwise, the other attempt I had was to stick to SR neutral sweepers, which there are a few for sun to use (scarftran, chlorophyll users). It's an unfortunate handicap, but not completely crippling.
  24. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    Because it's been addressed and I have nothing better to do, I figured I would go through C-Rank and do some cleaning up (based off my own opinion, please post your own)
    Show Hide

    • [​IMG] fine
    • [​IMG] fine
    • [​IMG] D-Rank to me, Azumarill isn't really destroying much anymore because Sand actually puts up stiff competition to rain nowadays, and the whole purpose of using Azumarill is to spam Choice Band Aqua Jet in the rain, and if there's no rain, there's no point in using it.
    • [​IMG] I'm more or less on the fence about Chandelure, sure it hits like a truck and that's awesome, but every time I've ever seen it be used it was too slow to actually hit anything unless you managed to scare your opponent to switch because their Celebi didn't have Earth Power. I feel like it should be D-Rank, but if we trim the list down enough without removing him that's fine.
    • [​IMG] B- Rank. Literally has the potential to stop almost anything dead in their tracks, but is crippled by having Psychic for a type. Still good enough for B- Rank.
    • [​IMG] Custap Lead for people who want offensive presence too I guess? Like Chandelure, one to cut if we only really need to keep trimming
    • [​IMG] Ditto is really any rank it wants to be, I guess it's fine in C-Rank
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] What does this even do someone please explain it to me I don't even really understand why this is listed at all
    • [​IMG] Literally no discussion on this besides one post, if it's going to be listed put it in D-Rank until there's some discussion about it
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] Last minute cut, there's almost no reason to use Jolteon in this metagame anymore besides fast Thunder spam
    • [​IMG] D-Rank, just because it has Quiver Dance doesn't mean it makes good use of it
    • [​IMG] Fine, AgilityGross is really good so B- maybe
    • [​IMG] D-Rank, it has probably the smallest niche in OU so D-Rank is perfect for it
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] I'm biased towards this I'd say B- but otherwise fine
    • [​IMG] D-Rank, it's been said this literally has almost no use now because everything it checked/threatened is banned now
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] Fine
    • [​IMG] Why is this not B-? Slowbro is a fantastic physical wall/bulky attacker. Slowbro is considered for a lot more teams now than it used to be for good reason. Solid Terrakion check.
    • [​IMG] Shaky Keldeo check that also has a good Specs set and functions well in TR. Specially based Slowbro. Solid C+ if we go to that splitting-up route.
    • [​IMG] D-Rank, Smeargle is only useful on Baton Pass chains
    • [​IMG] I love this thing so much, if only all it's moves weren't recoil-based. C+ if we go that route, if not I'd like to see people's opinions on it.
    • [​IMG] fine
    • [​IMG] D-Rank, see previous posts
    • [​IMG] Holy mother of god make this thing B Rank. If you haven't used this yet you need to. Threatens Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Politoed, Ferrothorn, Hippowdown, Rotom-W, and Starmie. Most of its sets could be easily implemented on any team, though I personally prefer the mixed Growth set because it has a good amount of chances to set up. Please, go ladder with this thing and then you'll realize how good it is.
    • [​IMG] I've used this thing successfully in HO, it's good to pair up with a Ghost/Psychic type (Gengar and Latios were my two) and it works. Surprise factor doesn't really even matter, it's Sucker Punch is strong enough to beat Lati@s and Celebi, and Flamethrower is a nice coverage move. Also gets U-Turn and we know what U-Turn can do for you. B-.
  25. Spinda

    Spinda

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    Exeggutor provides an ability to beat certain things that typically give sun trouble, just like sawsbuck ( although Sawsbuck beats more, and has a way better speed tier ).. Is a great mixed attacker like Victreebel ( though Victreebel is generally better, especially due to that speed ), and is relatively bulky for a chlorophyll sweeper, like Venusaur ( though that SpD is rather lacking, and again, Venusaur is a lot faster ).
    And as a slow chlorophyll sweeper with mixed capabilities and good natural physical bulk, it even finds itself having a lot of competition with tangrowth, who is slightly slower, has better mixed offensive stats, doesn't have to rely on a recoil move as their best damaging physical grass attack, and has a much better physical bulk, the only real reasons to use exeggutor over it would be low kick, a fighting resistance and the ability to outspeed scarftran without using a boosting nature.

    It has a tough time distinguishing itself and especially due to that lacking speed, you'll rarely find yourself wanting to use it over something else.

    I'd put it at D, though I could understand it staying at C considering it's not bad per se.. It just has a really difficult time finding a team it isn't outclassed in, and is somewhat slow for a chlorophyll sweeper in this fast paced meta, being outsped by a huge majority of common scarfers.

    Empoleon mostly does that Agility + SubPetaya shit it did in 4th gen, along with Agility LO, and it can even do a SD set rather well.
    I used the SD set on a more gimmicky team, which I got like #10 with on the ladder, but I found it to be my MVP, though it might seem initially outclassed to Feraligatr, it can make pokemon like Latias its set-up fodder a lot easier and the toxic immunity and other resistances are quite huge. ( Extremespeed, for example is huge here, but it also makes scarfed outrage users its bitch ). Its steel typing allows it to differentiate itself from other water types and subpetaya is just insanely powerful due to torrent. C fits it well, in my honest opinion.

    I'd put Ditto at B-, but it's hard to really argue for its placement.

    I'd put Slowking at B, maybe even B+, it's just a generally good rain check and TR Slowking just destroys, it's really underrated and I've often swept even sun teams with it. It has an amazing movepool and can perform well both defensively and offensively, Keldeo just gave it a new niche but it's always been amazing. I really think this is an amazing pokemon in the current metagame and a lot of my recent more succesful teams have featured it.

    I don't think Quiver Dance is what put Lilligant at C, the sun utility set still works surprisingly well, mainly due to healing wish being such an amazing move, especially in sun.
    It can go modest, invest in bulk and still outspeed every notable scarfer, those leaf storms are also insanely powerful and sleep powder is sleep powder.

    Smeargle makes a decent HO lead too, and spore is amazing but it's low C to me, I could see it dropping to D.

    I'd keep Virizion at C from my personal experience, I would've put it B in the lando-i meta but it seems fine here, however you probably have more experience with it so I'll trust your judgement.

    I'd drop Durant to D because despite it being fast and a powerhouse, hustle kind of sucks and when using hone claws I feel like I'm better off using swords dance scizor/terrak depending on whether typing or speed is more important, along with that absolutely horrible special defense.

    Jolteon is B- to me but I'm too tired to argue it right now haha.

    Aside from that I agree with your list completely.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
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