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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Ninetales was NU in DPP. It is now OU and was 13th in September.

    This is ALL thanks to Drought. The joke is that Ninetales needs to literally do nothing but switch in and she has instantly supported her entire team and (potentially) crippled the entire enemy team if they were reliant on a different kind of weather.

    Sun and Rain are the most powerful conditions in BW2. End of discussion. The only support that comes anywhere close is Stealth Rock. Ninetales gives Sun for free for the ENTIRE GAME if you win the weather war or if your opponent just wasn't using weather.

    Everything else (dealing with Dugtrio, Spikes and Stealth Rocks), pales in comparison to that. If I deal with one Pokemon, I get free +2/+2 boosts for all my sweepers and turn them into the most threatening Pokemon in the game? Sounds like S-tier to me.
  2. papai noel

    papai noel
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    The joke is that Ninetales can't simply switch in and change weathers because a) he's weak to hazards and b) he has terrible stats and defensive typing. Politoed can switch in and change weathers, so can Hippowdon. Ninetales needs support to enter the field safely and come out safely (it loses 70% to CB Ttar's Pursuit, lol). I mean, you can't just say it should be S Rank because it has Drought, this doesn't turn its weaknesses into something nonexistent.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    It is not one Pokemon that you must deal with, it is 3, Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon, which all beat Ninetales 1 on 1. And yeah if Ninetales needs to beat the most dominant Pokemon in the tier, Politoed, in order to succeed, this sounds as a reason to not be in S rank to me.
  4. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    I agree. As I said before, Ninetales needs heavy team support if she wants to stay in and keep her mighty sun up; she needs a Pokemon to deal with Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, as well as a Pokemon to spin hazards. As a result, the liability of having Ninetales to set up sun spreads to the rest of the team, having to give up precious teamslots just to support Ninetales. Also, she provides no synergy with any of the team whatsoever; she does nothing besides setting up sun and maybe pulling off an odd Will-O-Wisp or Fire Blast. This overall makes Ninetales a liability on the team, akin to the way Hippopotas was back in UU, providing nothing for the team other than the weather. The other weather starters do not need as much support as Ninetales. She is not S-Tier material at all, because not only does she need heavy team support; she's a liability on the team.

    EDIT: Also, my Scrafty and Stoutland nominations should not go ignored!
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Only a note: Politoed, although neutral to Stealth Rock, also hates having hazards on its side of field, as it also limits the amount of times that Politoed can come in and change the weather, and on the situation where you have the weather on your favor and Politoed has suffered enough damage that the next time that it switch-in it dies to hazard damage, you have essentially won the weather war, unless you have a Pokémon with Healing Wish on your team.

    The only difference here is that Ninetales is much more limited than Politoed on this regard, since it takes more damage from hazards than Politoed. This isn't due to higher HP, as all Pokémon take the same equivalent amount of damage from hazards (not considering that there are some pokémon weak or resistant to them) but because Ninetales is weak to Stealth Rock.
  6. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Are people really trying to argue S-tier for the Pokemon that pushed Dugtrio and Donphan into OU just to support its ass? lol.

    Another problem with Ninetales is that even with the support it needs from other Pokemon in order to win weather wars, it's STILL not S-tier material. Every time it gets onto the battlefield, it invites the opponent to threaten the team with something worse, like Dragons and Heatran. These Pokemon are hard to switch into to start with but having sun up makes THOSE Pokemon more powerful as well, and losing the initiative by switching Ninetales in will likely cost you a teammate.

    Sun has so many useless slots these days. If Ninetales were any bit as decent a Pokemon as the other weather starters, you could free up one whole team slot to jam it with another threat. Politoed doesn't needs spinners, type synergy, or any of that nonsense to function because its typing is better.
  7. Bent1ey

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    Ninetails and Abomasnow are similar pokemon in the sense that they need lots of support and are weak to common threats, but while Abo carries decent bulk and nice offensive abilities, Ninetails has a much more powerful weather condition that can be abused. Obviously Ninetails is the best supporting pokemon -Abo can Leech Seed and has priority, but it's not all that supportive at all-, simply by Drought's sheer power. But it's pretty clear that it has all the other problems that Abomansow, and it's pretty bad at most things.

    So if Abo is discussed to be a B level pokemon, I understand how you can rationalize Ninetails into A rank. But I heavily disagree, I think Abomasnow is close to an A rank pokemon, and Drought is just superior when it comes to weather, which justifies S-Rank in my eyes.
  8. flea

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    I'd nominate Gengar for A-rank. It is probably the only spinblocker that can have enough of a fast, offensive presence to keep up in this blistering, revenge-based meta. Also, has anyone else noticed how good Sub+Disable is right now? You get a ton of pokemon that really can't touch you with more than one move, it's just an incredibly effective set. And it also has unresisted offensive moves in Shadow Ball+Focus Blast, if that all wasn't enough already. It pretty reliably beats anything that can spin in ou, and that in conjunction with its other great tools and synergy with today's offensive meta...I think that makes an A-rank pokemon. Anyone else feel like they're picking apart teams with this guy?
  9. Arcticblast

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    As for the Ninetales to S Tier controversy: One of the worst Pokemon in the tier (outside of Drought) ironically checks one of the best Pokemon in the tier (Genesect) without even trying.

    In my opinion I'd put all of the fully evolved weather inducers into S tier except Abomasnow (deserves A tier for Snow Warning) since weather is such a force, but this is just something to think about.
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Lol. I agree Scrafty falls into the lower tiers, but it's not D or E-Tier by any means. Scrafty is solidly C-Tier, as he perfectly fits its description. As we both said, he can be very effective given the right support, but he has numerous crippling flaws that prevent him from being perfect. He is also overlooked in favor of Terrakion at times, Nonetheless though, Scrafty can be dangerous given the right conditions; he just has some issues that prevent him from being invincible.

    As for Stoutland, yeah, I'd now say B-Tier for Stoutland. He is dangerous from my experience, he's an amazing revenge killer. He is just slightly ecliped in favor of Landorus-I. Nonetheless, he can properly fulfill the niche of being a great revenge killer with great coverage and bulk, and he's not that outperformed by Landorus. He is also dangerous and can quickly make or break the game. So B-Tier is the fine place for Stoutland.
  11. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I agree. While Stoutland is faster under sandstorm, outside sandstorm, Landorus is always faster, with or without a Choice Scarf. Landorus is also less dependent on the sandstorm than Stoutland, and although it loves the 30% boost to its STAB and Rock-type attacks, Landorus still retain most of its power, and can actually take advantage of it outside sandstorm under most conditions. Ground is a much better STAB to have than Normal, despite the many things immune to Ground, due to the other many things weak to it, and very few things resist Ground, while nothing is weak to Normal and many things resist it. Landorus also has a big advantage over Stoutland: U-Turn. It lets Landorus mantain the momentum on its side, when most matchups are unfavorable to him. Stoutland doesn't have this, so it is much more reliant on prediction than Landorus. Also, while Stoutland has a respectable bulk, not only it has no resistances, but also has a weakness to Fighting-type moves, wich are pretty common, and Ghost-type attacks are uncommon to begin with. However, Landorus has amazing immunities to Ground, Electric, and resistances to Fighting and Bug. Wants something better?

    Apart from all this, Landorus has other advantages. For example, it is not limited to a revenge killing role; it is much more versatile than this. It can Swords Dance to break through stall, can take advantage of Sheer Force and destroy offensive teams, and can use Gravity to take out its would-be counters. With Sheer Force, Landorus actually become independent from sandstorm. Stoutland has only one niche in revenge killing while Sandstorm is active. So, on my opinion, B-Tier is too much kindness with Stoutland, B-Tier at best but my opinion is that C-Tier is the true place for him.
  12. superstar

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    I think the fact that everyone is complaining about the liability that is Ninetales merely proves how insane she is. The fact you are essentially throwing away a team spot just for sun further reinforces the point of how great its support is. Drought support is easily on the same level of support as a layer of rocks or rain. The only reason Ninetales isn't on 50% of teams is Tyranitar and Politoed. Think about it: when you are playing weatherless, which scares you more, seeing a Ninetales, or seeing a Politoed/Terrakion? For me, the answer is always Ninetales. The level of support Drought brings to the table is amazing. Ninetales should be S tier just for the support it brings.
    Agree with Alderon. Ninetales = S Tier


    In addition, I would like to nominate Ferrothorn for A-tier. It almost exactly fits the definition: Can wall many portions of the metagame and gives opponents free turns occasionally, but does his job most of the time. Ferro is a top 3 Pokemon for a reason: he consistently beats the threats he needs to and sets up hazards reliably. Sure, he can be set-up bait for some threats, but you can say that about Jirachi and Heatran as well, and no one is doubting their status there.
  13. Joeyboy

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    Thank god, this is being addressed again, :)

    I said Ninetales deserved S-Rank before and I say it again now.

    The main argument as to why Ninetales isn't S-Rank, at least when I nominated it, was that it wasn't a good pokemon at all, besides the drought support it brought. Regardless if that is true or not, we aren't nominating non-drought Ninetales as S-Rank, we are nominating Drought Ninetales.

    The fact that Ninetales summons permanent Sun alone makes it S-Rank material in my eyes. Neither Politoed nor Ninetales would be anywhere near S-Rank if not for weather. People bring up that Politoed is a good pokemon, and is more than just a weather starter, and that's just not true. Politoed would not be used if not for Drizzle. This is the same thing for Ninetales.

    Anyway Aldaron definitely worded it better, but I just wanted to throw my support behind it again. For prosperity:

    Plus, I have no doubt that many people would say Sun could be a suspect.
  14. FaceFaceFace

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    Only reason Ninetales may not be in S is due to it's typing inferiority to Politoed. Otherwise, it would be S for sure.

    Whether or not it is suspect, I don't know. There are some pretty good checks to sun out there, since most sun teams follow a standard formula anyway (trapper+sweep); as for rain, there are just too many possibilities. AND rain strips Genesect off it's 4x fire weakness - like that thing needs any more support.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I don't know how anyone would think Ninetales is S rank. Sure, it offers sunshine, but Ninetales itself sucks at performing any other job other than maybe bulky fodder set, so you can try to win the weather war. Honestly, Ninetales is sand weak, rain weak, stealth rock weak, and although if it wins the war it isn't rain / sand weak, its weak to the opposing inducers, which is the problem. I guess Duggy remedies this issue, but then we could put a whole bunch of Pokemon in S tier (like Dragonite) if we include partners too. Ninetales itself sucks, it's fine where it is. Sun is great, but I find it's pretty predictable and managable and I would rank the entire playstyle A-B at best, no where near S.
  16. bubbly

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    Ninetales is borderline A/S imo. Support it offers is gargantuan, on the other hand as everyone says, it needs support to have a chance against other weather inducers. If Drizzle is banned, as seems very possible, Drought might easily be suspected afterwards
  17. ClubbingSealCub

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    Sun is certainly not more manageable than sand or rain, and the reason for that is chlorophyll. If you don't have one (sometimes more) dedicated sun counter that doesnt get raped by duggy, Venu/liligant or even victreebell or sawsbuck are going to tear your team apart if you let sun be up too long.

    This is something rain does not have access to due to the SSDrizzle ban, and sand only has 3 true sand abusers (and two of them are NU and the other one is arguably S-tier).
  18. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I am not sure if Ferrothorn really is an A-Tier Pokémon. Sure that all that is true, but Ferrothorn is having some problems on this new metagame. Before BW2, the most effective way to kill Ferrothorn was with Fire-type (and strong Fighting-type) attacks, and for this reason Ferrothorn was, and still is, found mostly on rain teams.

    However, nowadays Ferrothorn is also dying to strong neutral attacks, so for the most part Fire and Fighting-type attacks aren't the only way to deal with the metallic jackfruit. Ferrothorn is dying to Landorus' Earthquake and Earth Power, to Tornadus-T's Hurricane, Genesect's Bug Buzz or Choice Band U-Turn, and many other things. Also, Ferrothorn is not really as good as a check to bulky Water-types. Despite being neutral at worst to most things that they could throw on them, such as Ice Beam, Ferrothorn has difficulty trying to actually defeat Water-types, first because it depends on a innacurate move to do this, and because many of them carry Scald. As Ferrothorn uses physical attacks, a burn renders him mostly useless against even bulky Water-types. Also, Keldeo is a Water-type that can actually defeat Ferrothorn 1x1 due to Secret Sword.

    So, Ferrothorn can't really wall many portions of the metagame, but it is still an amazing Pokémon with acess to really good options, and is somewhat unpredictable. You never know wich entry hazard it is carrying; Stealth Rock, Spikes or both. You never know if it packs Thunder Wave, that can cripple you for the rest of match unless you are a Ground-type or have Volt Absorb. You never know if it is going to Leech Seed you to make you die slowy. You never know it it is carrying Gyro Ball to kill your fast, frail Pokémon.
  19. tehy

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    But how are any of those who kill it switching in? Any who do risk leech seed or t-wave;landorus can be gyro balled in the face. And we never relied on it to switch into powerful neutral things;that hasn't exactly changed. If anything, tornadus-T's hurricanes are weaker than tornadus-I's, genesect is new but ferro is toasted by flamethrower anyhow, and it was never asked to wall landorus. The metagame hasn't gone an overwhelming power boost, so it's not like it's suddenly so much worse at taking neutral hits-it's just that anything switching in can be, as you said, paralysed, gyro balled, or leech seeded, which means it's better to be able to OHKO it. Thus, the strong SE moves. The only real change is genesect. Ferro can take bug buzzes and CB u-turns, especially since they are rare. The real issue is... why are you switching him into a genesect anyhow? You'd have to be really desperate for that to be a good idea, or at least great at prediction.

    "as good a check to bulky water-types"
    Other than keldeo, when did this change? Why is it not AS good a check as it was before? No relevant bulky water has had significant changes via BW2 that allows it to challenge ferrothorn much more effectively...
  20. papai noel

    papai noel
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    Ninetales must not be S Rank. Sure, he has Drought, but that's not enough. Ninetales is so bad that he needs support just to summon Sun, which is just switching in. Almost every Sun team needs Dugtrio to get rid of some threats that Ninetales can't handle on his own (Tyranitar, Heatran, etc.), which is something really big. Politoed is on the S Rank because he can summon Rain in a much easier way than Ninetales, being bulkier, having a better typing and supporting more stuff in general, because Rain has many more Pokémon to abuse than Sun. Ninetales only has to switch in and he needs support just to do it. A Tier.

    Ferrothorn should be B Tier nowadays. He is a great Dragon-types counter but he is weak to common Fire and Figthing-type moves, which most dragons carry (Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Superpower, etc). He also fears too much STAB Hurricane, and even though Tornadus-I has a higher Special Attack, back in BW he was not really common. Now the most common thing to see is Hurricane, which makes Ferrothorn's life miserable. In a metagame so offensively oriented, Ferrothorn is even outclassed by other (faster and stronger) hazard users, that don't fear Taunt like him. Of course it is still a great Pokémon, but in such an offensive metagame filled with Scalds and STAB moves he can't even complete its primary niche as a Water-types check sometimes. Ferrothorn is one of my favorite Pokémon, but he really lost some points in BW2. B Tier.

    I'm also supporting Stoutland, Moltres and Hitmontop for C Tier. They're nice.
  21. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Actually Ferrothorn alwas has not as good as a check to bulky Water-types as it seems to be. Ferrothorn walls almost all of them, but a Scald burn seriously hampers Ferrothorn's ability to take bulky Water-types, especially those that have reliable recovery. So it needs to rely more on Leech Seed to do this job. Also, no Rain team these days doesn't have a way to work around Ferrothorn. Pretty much what has been said above by papai noel.

    Also (many Ferrothorn are specially defensive so I'm going to calc with these):

    Detailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Genesect (+Atk) U-turn vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 40,06% - 47,16%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Detailed Result:
    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Ferrothorn (+SpDef) : 50,28% - 59,09%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
  22. Antihaxxer

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    The common build is Choice Scarf and you don't always have U Turn + Bug Buzz with the right boost ... For every Genesect without Flamethrower, Ferrothorn is a hard counter
  23. alexwolf

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    I still see most people that suggest Ninetales for S rank ignoring her main problems. Nobody is saying (or at least me) that the support that Ninetales is bringing is not super awesome. The serious argument presented against Ninetales being in S rank isn't that Ninetales alone would be NU. Because guess what, Ninetales has Drought, so this is the poke we are discussing about.

    The problem with Ninetales is that it wants support to provide support. Yeah you heard well. It is one of the few support pokes that require a lot of support in order to work well. This is because of the other, much better weather inducers that exist in OU, along with her weakness to SR and her shitty typing and stats, all of which prevent her from doing her job. And this means that it can't fit in any team, as can any poke that is in S rank. Pokes in S rank are capable of fitting in almost any team, because they are so good standalone pokes, that very little support is needed. Ninetales simply does not fit this criteria. Ninetales wants support in order to offer her support, which is why it fits perfectly in A rank.
  24. superstar

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    This statement is essentially the reason I think Ferrothorn should be A-tier. No A-Teir Pokemon is going to be perfect, especially a defensive one. However, there are absolutely no defensive Pokemon in A-Tier bar Jirachi and Heatran, and I absolutely put Ferrothorn on their level. Every team needs to have a plan to get past Ferrothorn, otherwise your Dragons will be useless and your water attacks walled. I personally would be more skeptical of a team that easily lets Ferro set up hazards than I would be of a team that is Breloom weak.
    As for stuff getting past it: of course it has weaknesses. In Gen 4, for example, Blissey was arguably A-Tier despite getting destroyed by every single physical attacker. Heatran is A-Tier despite getting murdered by water and fighting attacks; i.e. two common attack types, just like Ferro. Sure, Ferro is not going to wall everything, but it walls what it needs to for a long enough time, and will generally set up SR/Spikes reliably -- this hazard support is what makes it so valuable It is an A-tier support Pokemon.
    Come on, are we really going to only have 3 defensive Pokemon in A-Tier or above?

    EDIT: If we are excluding things that are Genesect weak we are going to have to take half the meta away.

    EDIT2: From the OP: Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

    In my opinion that fits Ferrothorn exactly
  25. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I never meant to imply that it was more managable, just that with my exprienece as a player, I feel it's quite predictable. I never said it was any less deadly. Chloro sweepers can certainly sweep entire HO teams, and yes, those teams do need to carry a counter. I just meant that I find that the stradegy can easily be stopped with smart playing, (and what better way to perform smart playing when a playstyle is predictable?) and usually most sun teams rely on Duggy / Chloro sweepers to actually do things whereas rain and sand don't.


    Sorry if I was implying that sun was less managable than rain or sand.
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