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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    I went ahead and quoted the parts of the posts that argued against against Ninetales in S-tier and bolded the parts that were relevant. Whether or not Ninetales by itself is outclassed by Politoed is utterly irrelevant. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it should be S tier. IN FACT, the only relevance that might have is that Politoed should possibly be in a higher tier (no, I'm not actually suggesting that).

    Ninetales, in comparison to Terrakion, Genesect, and Landorus-I, supports a team just as much if not more than each of these three do their work offensively.

    You have to remember that battle long support like Stealth Rock (arguably the strongest move in Gen 4) and Weather are FAR BIGGER deals than what pokemon can do individually defensively or offensively.

    When alexwolf says "while Ninetales offers godlike team support" (note the term godlike), when Dark Fallen Angel says "Drought support is one of the best supports that a Pokémon can have." (note the term best), when Lavos Spawn says "even though its respective weather is arguably better than Politoed's Rain" (note he says sun is arguably better than rain), you are directly stating that Ninetales deserves to be S-tier. Battle long support that supports multiple Pokemon / strategies is far more significant than individual pokemon offensive / defensive capacities, and PKGaming specifically said in the OP that this list applies to all of offense, defense, and support. The only things statements like "Ninetales is outclassed by Politoed" say is that Politoed is amazingly amazing, not that Ninetales is not S-tier amazing. You also can't say "if not for Drought Ninetales would suck" as a serious argument (saying it as a talking point is fine), because Ninetales does have Drought...and, from what we're witnessing in BW1 AND BW2, Drought itself is S-tier support (vulpix was banned from UU lol).

    Apply logic here guys; you have multiple Pokemon in S-class...they are not equally good. There is a best S-class pokemon (probably politoed) that outclasses all of the others in what it does best compared to what they do best. That doesn't mean they don't all deserve to be S-tier.
  2. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Fletchinder FTW
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    I agree with both of these. Tornadus-T is indeed a powerful Pokemon, but he is easily countered by both Rotom-W and Jirachi, and checked by Mamoswine and Jolteon. This is enough to keep Tornadus-T in A-Tier.

    Ninetales is nowhere near S Material. She does summon a powerful weather that suddenly makes Venusaur and Volcarona into monsters. But take this into consideration: Ninetales does not provide the offensive or defensive synergy with any of the team at all. This in turn makes Ninetales a liability, not a threat. She also loses to Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, and as a result, she needs heavy team support to help her keep her sun up. This keeps Ninetales in A-Tier.

    And since we're also doing lower tier mons, I would like to nominate Scrafty for C-Tier. As Much as I like it, the metagame is really against Scrafty. Tornadus-T can outspeed and kill (but can't switch into an Ice Punch), while Rachi can cripple it. He's also slow and weak before a boost. Nonetheless, the DD set is incredibly deadly in the right conditions thanks to perfect coverage and Moxie, while the Bulk Up set is hard to take down. Scrafty for C-Tier.

    I'd also like to nominate Stoutland for C-Tier. Thanks to Sand Rush, Stoutland becomes an amazing revenge killer in sand. He has overall excellent coverage, good bulk to work with, and excellent speed in Sand. A Choice Band gives it much needed firepower, while his bulk means he's not going down in one neutral hit. However, he is heavily dependent on Sand from Ttar or Hippo, outside of it, he's as normal a Normal-type (Pun Intended) as you can get. It is also worth mentioning that Normal STAB is not the best thing to have. He is also weak to Mach Punch, so Breloom with SD can put him in a risky situation. Nonetheless, given support from Ttar/Hippo as well as others in the sand, Stoutland can be very good, and this is enough to put Stoutland in C-Tier.

    EDIT: Another reason to keep Torn-T in A-Tier is the fact that rain is his life and blood. Without it, he's an almost nonexistant threat.
  3. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    alexwolf, except from Lando-T (on which I agree with you, it's a good Terrakion counter, although it needs a defensive set to avoid being raped by CB Terrakion), Defensive Hippowdon is 2HKO'd after 1 layer of Spikes, so it's not exactly a "safe counter" as you describe. Also, while Gliscor is indeed a good check, 248/252+ versions are nonexistant in this meta (check the usage statistics if you need to...), 252/184+ has a good chance to be 2HKO'd by Band and faster versions (quite common since SubToxic is everywhere) are even worse.

    Also, your argument on "Tornadus-T being more threatening in rain" is kinda moot, since I could argue that Venusaur is much more threatening than Tornadus-T and basically of every weather abuser in its weather, but it was even rejected from A-rank because it's meh outside Sun. The exact same applies to Tornadus-T: outside Rain, a 70% accuracy STAB is horrendous, and it can easily lose you games because that SD Lucario set-upped in your face while you missed. And while your Dugtrio argument makes some sense (although it's easy to argue that half a team is indeed a BIG support), the whole Politoed + Dugtrio + Tornadus can be easily handled by Rotom-W; so not only you built half your team around it (again, a huge chunk of support) but it can't even handle all of Tornadus-T's checks / counters.

    I can't deny that Tornadus-T is deadly and can sweep easily unprepared teams (although its power is not that great as everyone seems to think, at least to me; I easily swept teams clean with Specs Tornadus in BW1 and it's less frequent now thanks to that drop in SpA); it has a lot of awesome traits, but its predictability, support-dependance, and diminished usefulness outside Rain is more than enough to keep it in A-rank, IMHO.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Aldaron i agree with you that Drought support is indeed godlike support, but there are other factors to consider. Many Pokemon have very good support options, such as Altaria, Roserade, and Uxie, yet they are not OU because of other significant flaws. Of 'course the support that those pokes provide is nowhere near the level of Drought's support, but there is still a connection.

    It is not enough for a poke to have the support moves, abilities or typing, to be regarded as a good support mon. It must also be able to constantly provide this support, with little support itself. The best support mons ever require almost no support themselves to function, such as Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Uxie for RU, etc. They can be easily thrown in most teams. And this is not the case with Ninetales. She needs a lot of support as we all know, which means that she can't offer her support in the teams as easily as it should in order for it to be in S rank, imo.
  5. papai noel

    papai noel

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    Ok, I'm going to post my opinion about all these Pokémon that you're suggesting for S Rank.

    First of all, there's Landorus-I. I believe Landorus-I should totally be a S Rank Pokémon, if not the best S Rank Pokémon. It just simply laughs at offensive teams with Rock Polish and laughs at defensive teams with Calm Mind. Its main problems are weakness to common Water moves and Ice Shard, which really is bad. It also fails to KO some stuff even with LO + Sheer Force, like Lati@s and Jellicent. But these are just small problems that can be easily remedied with the help of some stuff, especially hazards. Landorus-I can perform multiple roles efficiently, being a great revenge killer, sweeper, late-game cleaner and wall breaker. It is way harder to play around than other S Rank Pokémon because it can use its special side and its physical side, which means that you can send in your Politoed or Hippowdon to tank an Earthquake but then he sends an Earth Power and you're dead. Landorus-I is completely deadly and unpredictable, you have to rely on team preview to guess which set he's running, and you can almost never be 100% sure. This is one of the deadliest Pokémon in OU and he sure deserves to be on the S Rank.

    I don't have a full opinion about Tornadus-T. He can work outside Rain by using Rain Dance, but i can only imagine this happening nicely with a load of predicts and support. I mean, if you send in your Tornadus-T, your opponent will a) use a super effective move with a slower Pokémon just to sacrifice it, but you'll die if you don't attack it or b) send a counter / check to Tornadus-T and you'll be forced out anyways. Although i feel he has the qualities to be on the S Rank, I just don't know if he can manage to perfom its role without some support. I have to test it to say something else. For now, I believe he is better at the A Rank, because it is predictable and needs support.

    Ninetales is not S Rank. He just sucks. Fire is a terrible typing, being weak to common attacks in OU and he doesn't resist any sort of hazard. It doesn't have the stats, variety or power to be on the S Rank. While Politoed can effectively be a physical wall, specs user or scarf user, Ninetales can only work as a terrible special wall, not being able to switch in to common strong attacks, such as Draco Meteor from Latias. He can also work as a special attacker, but he doesn't get the strength to break through most walls. Of course it provides heavy support, but that is the only thing it does nicely. It does check some pretty specific threats, but is still just not good enough to be S ranked. You can't just see the Drought support it brings to the table, you must analise its weaknesses, and Ninetales has TONS of weaknesses.

    So, resuming it all: Landorus-I for S Rank; not sure about Tornadus-T (but pending for A Rank); Ninetales for A Rank.
  6. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Well Aldaron, is not that I don't agree with Ninetales being S-Tier. Its because although all that you say is true, and Ninetales indeed provide a sort of support that is so valuable that initially makes it seem that Ninetales is worthy of a S-Tier classification, you must also consider that Ninetales is a bad pokémon that provides little synergy with the team, both defensively and offensively, as said above by ScraftyIsTheBest. Ninetales has a severe disadvantage against all weather starters except Abomasnow, wich is uncommon enough to be irrelevant as a threat. Also, Ninetales actually requires support to provide support to the team; you must take out all entry hazards, must eliminate all threats to wich Ninetales can't switch in safely... These factors make me doubt whether Ninetales is worthy of S-Tier or not.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Ganj4lf i wasn't talking about counters, but about good switch-ins. And anyway many pokes are not counters to other pokes if certain conditions are met, but what matters is if they counter the threat that they are supposed to under normal/usual conditions. And from my personal experience, SR + 1 layer of Spikes rarely were up for a long period of time. And from experience i can tell that Hippowdon is a solid counter most of the times for Terrakion. Of 'course i can get screwed in a game that i didn't manage to prevent Deo-D from setting up SR + Spikes, and i also didn't manage to spin those hazards fast enough, but this is a rare scenario.

    About Gliscor. I know that the standard defensive Gliscor is running 72 Spe evs, but this was always a mistake. And popular or not, it doesn't matter, as it exists and it is very viable, and nothing prevents you from running Max HP / Def in you Gliscor. Good pokes are not always popular on the ladder, don't forget that (take Keldeo as an example). In fact the defensive Gliscor spread will very possibly change to the one i mentioned, after hearing some people's opinions. So Gliscor is a counter for the most part, if you run the right spread, and one of the best Terrakion switch-ins.

    Your second paragrpaph ignores very important facts. The fact that rain is the most dominant and easy weather to keep up for example, which is the main reason i think that Torn-T belongs to S rank. Also the fact that Torn-T has Regenerator, allowing it to make its pressence felt in all the stages of the game, where Venusuar is usually limited to late game sweeping. And finally the fact that Torn-T is better outside of Rain than Venusaur is outside of Sun.

    And about the Dugtrio + Politoed part. Dugtrio support is sweet and sometimes makes Torn-T even more difficult to handle, but is not a must in any way, so let's not refer to it when we talk about Torn-T, as it can demolish teams even without Dugtrio easily.

    Everything else has been said, as to why i believe it is an S rank poke...
  8. Leader Fox

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    Well technically isn't Landorus suppose to be in a Dream Ball in the game in order for it to have a Sheer Force so when showdown does implement the changes you can pretty much tell if hes sheer force set or the Sand force set sadly :(
  9. Phazon00

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    I will definitely agree with Landorus-I being S Rank. The power of both it's special AND physical sets are simply insane, and it can be a great use to your team.
  10. Lord of Bays

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    Ninetales was NU in DPP. It is now OU and was 13th in September.

    This is ALL thanks to Drought. The joke is that Ninetales needs to literally do nothing but switch in and she has instantly supported her entire team and (potentially) crippled the entire enemy team if they were reliant on a different kind of weather.

    Sun and Rain are the most powerful conditions in BW2. End of discussion. The only support that comes anywhere close is Stealth Rock. Ninetales gives Sun for free for the ENTIRE GAME if you win the weather war or if your opponent just wasn't using weather.

    Everything else (dealing with Dugtrio, Spikes and Stealth Rocks), pales in comparison to that. If I deal with one Pokemon, I get free +2/+2 boosts for all my sweepers and turn them into the most threatening Pokemon in the game? Sounds like S-tier to me.
  11. papai noel

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    The joke is that Ninetales can't simply switch in and change weathers because a) he's weak to hazards and b) he has terrible stats and defensive typing. Politoed can switch in and change weathers, so can Hippowdon. Ninetales needs support to enter the field safely and come out safely (it loses 70% to CB Ttar's Pursuit, lol). I mean, you can't just say it should be S Rank because it has Drought, this doesn't turn its weaknesses into something nonexistent.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    It is not one Pokemon that you must deal with, it is 3, Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon, which all beat Ninetales 1 on 1. And yeah if Ninetales needs to beat the most dominant Pokemon in the tier, Politoed, in order to succeed, this sounds as a reason to not be in S rank to me.
  13. TaBuu

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    I decided to look at Alexwolf's arguement and Aladron's arguement then took it to the Smogon Analysis. From what I can conclude, it appears Ninetales requires too much support.
    Now, I'm not arguing for either side on the case of Ninetales; I'm just offering the facts:

    Ninetales vunerability to all forms of entry hazards and especially Stealth Rocks, really hinders the amount of times she can switch in and out. If we take our friend Politoed, the only thing he is really scared of, is Toxic Spikes. But even then any Politoed packing Refresh can cure itself. With more HP to use and abuse, Politoed can switch much more liberally than Ninetales can. An S-Tier Pokemon does provide massive support; Ninetales does just that. In fact it can be argued that Ninetales Drought support is much better than Politoed's Drizzle, as Drought benefits Sun and Weather-Independent teams more than Drizzle does. However, that is only half the definition. An S-Tier Pokemon needs to provide great support, but mustn't have a huge dependency on support itself. A Sun Team should focus on keeping Sun up and sweeping with Sun, not focusing on keeping Ninetales alive constantly with Rapid Spin, Wish and so forth. Rain teams have it easier as Politoed does not require as much support so Tornadus-T, for example, can focus more on smashing holes instead of supporting the little 'Toed.
  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Fletchinder FTW
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    I agree. As I said before, Ninetales needs heavy team support if she wants to stay in and keep her mighty sun up; she needs a Pokemon to deal with Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, as well as a Pokemon to spin hazards. As a result, the liability of having Ninetales to set up sun spreads to the rest of the team, having to give up precious teamslots just to support Ninetales. Also, she provides no synergy with any of the team whatsoever; she does nothing besides setting up sun and maybe pulling off an odd Will-O-Wisp or Fire Blast. This overall makes Ninetales a liability on the team, akin to the way Hippopotas was back in UU, providing nothing for the team other than the weather. The other weather starters do not need as much support as Ninetales. She is not S-Tier material at all, because not only does she need heavy team support; she's a liability on the team.

    EDIT: Also, my Scrafty and Stoutland nominations should not go ignored!
  15. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Only a note: Politoed, although neutral to Stealth Rock, also hates having hazards on its side of field, as it also limits the amount of times that Politoed can come in and change the weather, and on the situation where you have the weather on your favor and Politoed has suffered enough damage that the next time that it switch-in it dies to hazard damage, you have essentially won the weather war, unless you have a Pokémon with Healing Wish on your team.

    The only difference here is that Ninetales is much more limited than Politoed on this regard, since it takes more damage from hazards than Politoed. This isn't due to higher HP, as all Pokémon take the same equivalent amount of damage from hazards (not considering that there are some pokémon weak or resistant to them) but because Ninetales is weak to Stealth Rock.
  16. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Are people really trying to argue S-tier for the Pokemon that pushed Dugtrio and Donphan into OU just to support its ass? lol.

    Another problem with Ninetales is that even with the support it needs from other Pokemon in order to win weather wars, it's STILL not S-tier material. Every time it gets onto the battlefield, it invites the opponent to threaten the team with something worse, like Dragons and Heatran. These Pokemon are hard to switch into to start with but having sun up makes THOSE Pokemon more powerful as well, and losing the initiative by switching Ninetales in will likely cost you a teammate.

    Sun has so many useless slots these days. If Ninetales were any bit as decent a Pokemon as the other weather starters, you could free up one whole team slot to jam it with another threat. Politoed doesn't needs spinners, type synergy, or any of that nonsense to function because its typing is better.
  17. Bent1ey

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    Ninetails and Abomasnow are similar pokemon in the sense that they need lots of support and are weak to common threats, but while Abo carries decent bulk and nice offensive abilities, Ninetails has a much more powerful weather condition that can be abused. Obviously Ninetails is the best supporting pokemon -Abo can Leech Seed and has priority, but it's not all that supportive at all-, simply by Drought's sheer power. But it's pretty clear that it has all the other problems that Abomansow, and it's pretty bad at most things.

    So if Abo is discussed to be a B level pokemon, I understand how you can rationalize Ninetails into A rank. But I heavily disagree, I think Abomasnow is close to an A rank pokemon, and Drought is just superior when it comes to weather, which justifies S-Rank in my eyes.
  18. TaBuu

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    Alrighty I'll amswer them :)
    Scrafty IMO is honestly a Pokemon that will continue to struggle in the OU Tier(So I'm inferring it should fall in a low tier). Scrafty just cannot stand up to all the powerhouses of OU. Terrakion is going to smash Scrafty in about 18 different ways, all brutally violent. Genesect, who is currently giving the entire metagame hell (btw, anybody have some solid Genesect counters besides Tran?), can either decide to U-Turn or Bug Buzz on our poor Scrafty and leave it quite weakened. I even did the calcs. On a DD Scrafty, a +1 Bug Buzz is a 2HKO and a +1 U-Turn is also a 2HKO. On Bulk UP Scrafty, a +1 U-Turn will do 43%-51%ish (the calc I'm using is kinda iffy). However even though it isn't a 2HKO, this does allow Genesect to do damage and then bring in a Pokemon to finish Scrafty off. Tornadus-T will simply Hurricane or Superpower or Focus Blast, and leave its mark, if not OHKO. My favorite Lucario can OHKO at +0. Thundurus-Therian can OHKO with Focus Blast or 2HKO with either Thunder(bolt). Even Choice Specs Politoed (which seems to be pretty popular and gaining more popularity even quicker) can pretty much OHKO with Hydro Pump. TBH, the list goes on and on. I can tell Scrafty is a favorite of yours and I kinda feel bad for bashing on him (I hate it when people bash on the almighty Lucario ._.), but just keep in mind that even though Scrafty struggles in the OU Tier, in the right hands, smart playing, and determination, he can be successful :). However, strictly speakin in tiering terms I'd say Scrafty falls into the lower tiers.

    Stoutland is a powerhouse and quite a bitch in the sand... :)
    Jokes aside, Stoutland is...B-Tier at best. Looking at the definition, it seems to fit. The only set Stoutland can run pretty well is Choice Band (and the mutt does a great job of holding CB don't get me wrong). As a CB user, Stoutland is meant to revenge and sometimes Punch holes. However, Landorus-I hugely outclasses him. Revenge Killer? Using CS Landorus with Sand Force is just amazing as he has better STABs to abuse. Wall Breaker? We already know the power of Landorus. No explanation needed here :P. Stoutland does struggle to sweep a significant portion of the metagame due to the fact that a.) his stab is a normal type move which is easily walled by Rocks, ghosts and steels b.) he's locked into a move meaning he can easily become set up fodder. Overall Stoutland is dangerous. Not a dog to grab it's tail by and expect nothing to happen; however Landorus can be viewed as it's older and more superior cousin.
  19. flea

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    I'd nominate Gengar for A-rank. It is probably the only spinblocker that can have enough of a fast, offensive presence to keep up in this blistering, revenge-based meta. Also, has anyone else noticed how good Sub+Disable is right now? You get a ton of pokemon that really can't touch you with more than one move, it's just an incredibly effective set. And it also has unresisted offensive moves in Shadow Ball+Focus Blast, if that all wasn't enough already. It pretty reliably beats anything that can spin in ou, and that in conjunction with its other great tools and synergy with today's offensive meta...I think that makes an A-rank pokemon. Anyone else feel like they're picking apart teams with this guy?
  20. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Great Sage x Cathy is my OTP
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    As for the Ninetales to S Tier controversy: One of the worst Pokemon in the tier (outside of Drought) ironically checks one of the best Pokemon in the tier (Genesect) without even trying.

    In my opinion I'd put all of the fully evolved weather inducers into S tier except Abomasnow (deserves A tier for Snow Warning) since weather is such a force, but this is just something to think about.
  21. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Fletchinder FTW
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    Lol. I agree Scrafty falls into the lower tiers, but it's not D or E-Tier by any means. Scrafty is solidly C-Tier, as he perfectly fits its description. As we both said, he can be very effective given the right support, but he has numerous crippling flaws that prevent him from being perfect. He is also overlooked in favor of Terrakion at times, Nonetheless though, Scrafty can be dangerous given the right conditions; he just has some issues that prevent him from being invincible.

    As for Stoutland, yeah, I'd now say B-Tier for Stoutland. He is dangerous from my experience, he's an amazing revenge killer. He is just slightly ecliped in favor of Landorus-I. Nonetheless, he can properly fulfill the niche of being a great revenge killer with great coverage and bulk, and he's not that outperformed by Landorus. He is also dangerous and can quickly make or break the game. So B-Tier is the fine place for Stoutland.
  22. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Mhm :). Just sayin' right now though, if you're planning on makin' a team with Scrafty as center, Good Luck :P. I'll be as much of an assitance as I can humanly be, since Scrafty will need a lot to hit #1.
    Little nitpick, nothing big:
    *Scrafty and Terrakion IMO, aren't comparable. Terrakion is a wallbreaking, revenge-killing, offensive pivoting, set-up sweeping, monster that scares everyone. Scrafty is solely meant to boost and then sweep. So it's not that people really say to themselves, "Hm, Terrakion or Scrafty?", as Terrakion is in a different class entirely from Scrafty.

    Landorus>Stoutland. Stoutland becomes NU Quality w/o sand, while Landorus is still really damn powerful regardless of sand or not, thanks to Sheer Force.
  23. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I agree. While Stoutland is faster under sandstorm, outside sandstorm, Landorus is always faster, with or without a Choice Scarf. Landorus is also less dependent on the sandstorm than Stoutland, and although it loves the 30% boost to its STAB and Rock-type attacks, Landorus still retain most of its power, and can actually take advantage of it outside sandstorm under most conditions. Ground is a much better STAB to have than Normal, despite the many things immune to Ground, due to the other many things weak to it, and very few things resist Ground, while nothing is weak to Normal and many things resist it. Landorus also has a big advantage over Stoutland: U-Turn. It lets Landorus mantain the momentum on its side, when most matchups are unfavorable to him. Stoutland doesn't have this, so it is much more reliant on prediction than Landorus. Also, while Stoutland has a respectable bulk, not only it has no resistances, but also has a weakness to Fighting-type moves, wich are pretty common, and Ghost-type attacks are uncommon to begin with. However, Landorus has amazing immunities to Ground, Electric, and resistances to Fighting and Bug. Wants something better?

    Apart from all this, Landorus has other advantages. For example, it is not limited to a revenge killing role; it is much more versatile than this. It can Swords Dance to break through stall, can take advantage of Sheer Force and destroy offensive teams, and can use Gravity to take out its would-be counters. With Sheer Force, Landorus actually become independent from sandstorm. Stoutland has only one niche in revenge killing while Sandstorm is active. So, on my opinion, B-Tier is too much kindness with Stoutland, B-Tier at best but my opinion is that C-Tier is the true place for him.
  24. superstar

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    320
    I think the fact that everyone is complaining about the liability that is Ninetales merely proves how insane she is. The fact you are essentially throwing away a team spot just for sun further reinforces the point of how great its support is. Drought support is easily on the same level of support as a layer of rocks or rain. The only reason Ninetales isn't on 50% of teams is Tyranitar and Politoed. Think about it: when you are playing weatherless, which scares you more, seeing a Ninetales, or seeing a Politoed/Terrakion? For me, the answer is always Ninetales. The level of support Drought brings to the table is amazing. Ninetales should be S tier just for the support it brings.
    Agree with Alderon. Ninetales = S Tier


    In addition, I would like to nominate Ferrothorn for A-tier. It almost exactly fits the definition: Can wall many portions of the metagame and gives opponents free turns occasionally, but does his job most of the time. Ferro is a top 3 Pokemon for a reason: he consistently beats the threats he needs to and sets up hazards reliably. Sure, he can be set-up bait for some threats, but you can say that about Jirachi and Heatran as well, and no one is doubting their status there.
  25. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    Thank god, this is being addressed again, :)

    I said Ninetales deserved S-Rank before and I say it again now.

    The main argument as to why Ninetales isn't S-Rank, at least when I nominated it, was that it wasn't a good pokemon at all, besides the drought support it brought. Regardless if that is true or not, we aren't nominating non-drought Ninetales as S-Rank, we are nominating Drought Ninetales.

    The fact that Ninetales summons permanent Sun alone makes it S-Rank material in my eyes. Neither Politoed nor Ninetales would be anywhere near S-Rank if not for weather. People bring up that Politoed is a good pokemon, and is more than just a weather starter, and that's just not true. Politoed would not be used if not for Drizzle. This is the same thing for Ninetales.

    Anyway Aldaron definitely worded it better, but I just wanted to throw my support behind it again. For prosperity:

    Plus, I have no doubt that many people would say Sun could be a suspect.

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