Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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tehy

Banned deucer.
Actually Ferrothorn alwas has not as good as a check to bulky Water-types as it seems to be. Ferrothorn walls almost all of them, but a Scald burn seriously hampers Ferrothorn's ability to take bulky Water-types, especially those that have reliable recovery. So it needs to rely more on Leech Seed to do this job. Also, no Rain team these days doesn't have a way to work around Ferrothorn. Pretty much what has been said above by papai noel.

Also (many Ferrothorn are specially defensive so I'm going to calc with these):

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect (+Atk) U-turn vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 40,06% - 47,16%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Detailed Result:
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Ferrothorn (+SpDef) : 50,28% - 59,09%
2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
So i was right then. Thanks for explaining my argument in detail, while making it seem like you were countering it.

And i'm right-you'd never switch it into a plus 1 LO genesect in any case, so it's just the CB genesect, which fails to 2hitko.

The argument's already been made for it being support, but yeah, that's also why you're wrong-no one ever expects ferrothorn to wall everything, just to set up stuff while not being uber setup bait.

As for tabuu's argument... "Terrakion, Virizion, Lucario, Gensect, Salamence, Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Heatran, Hydreigon, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, Keldeo".

I shall first remove everything that can't take a STAB hit without taking SE damage.
", Virizion, Lucario, Gensect, Salamence, Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, , Dragonite, Heatran, Hydreigon, , Rotom-H, Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, "

I'll follow it up with people who hate gyro ball/power whip.
, Lucario, Gensect, , Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, , Dragonite, Heatran, , , Rotom-H, , Thundurus, And those who hate t-wave
, , Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, ,, Heatran, ,Rotom-H, , Thundurus
So that list is the real threat list. It can't wall all that stuff, but no one will EVER ask it to. It just lays hazards, using the threat of t-wave, Gyro ball, Power whip, and leech seed to keep enemies off its back.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
So i was right then. Thanks for explaining my argument in detail, while making it seem like you were countering it.

And i'm right-you'd never switch it into a plus 1 LO genesect in any case, so it's just the CB genesect, which fails to 2hitko.
What? I am actually countering your argument. Ferrothorn must not only avoid Flamethrower at all costs, but must also make sure that Genesect is not using a boosting item, otherwise it will take A LOT from a Bug-type attack, sufficient that the next switch-in will probable finish the job, or at least force Ferrothorn out. So, as rare as they are, Ferrothorn is not going to take Bug Buzz and CB U-Turn with impunity.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
But no one WANTS it to...

Think about it-what you're saying is that he can't switch into rare stuff when it's got a download boost too. And while it's predicted perfectly what it will do. And as for the LO variant, it would have to run away anyhow;as for the CB version, after lefties, even with SR, that's still less than half ferro's health.

As for the bulky water thing, apparently your argument was that it wasn't as good as YOU would think it would be? Except i don't think anyone else ever thought it was a great bulky water counter... maybe before everyone used scald in BW1?
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
You are only saying that I cited rare things, but Landorus with Earth Power (and Earthquake) and Tornadus' Hurricane are common, and I've cited them. They are neutral attacks perfectly capable of destroying Ferrothorn, even if it invests in Special Defense. Both of them even carry Fighting-type attacks, so Ferrothorn is very limited on options that they use that it can switch into. Also, I never said that those attacks could even 2HKO Ferrothorn, but that these attacks, when not 2HKOing, can at least cripple Ferrothorn so that the next switch-in can finish the job. As Ferrothorn lacks reliable recovery, it will be put on a though position (Leech Seed is not sufficient).
 
I'm not entirely sure about where this would go, but I know I have been running Slowbro in OU in a core with Charge Beam Blissey, and has been working very, very effectively. I know that Slowbro has been placed in UU, but I genuinely think that it has massive capabilities in OU. Utilising Calm Mind, Slowbro can pick up an uninvested Sp.Def stat of about 400-600.

After one Calm Mind, Slowbro's Sp.Def becomes 294 (uninvested, neutral nature). (1.5x)
After two, its Sp.Def is 392. (2x)
After three, it is 490. (2.5x)
After four; 588. (3x)
Five: 686 (3.5x)
Six: 784 (4x)

I know any Pokemon's Sp.Def stat can explode after six Calm Minds, but thats not my point. My point is, after two very easily achievable Calm Minds, it picks up a Sp.Def stat higher than Blissey's max. If Slowbro faces a physically strong Pokemon, it will do next to nothing. It has become my most common Scizor counter, as Bug Bite/U-Turn will only do about 10-22% when at +0 attack. Its ridiculously easy to set up Calm Minds, and when used properly, can wall out a large proportion of the Meta. Coming with its own recovery move, Slack Off, it can 'sweep' most teams, and tank out everything that opposes it.

I can show a demonstration if you want to see, skip to Turn 27. I was given a bit of trouble from a parashuffling Dragonite in the previous turns, but managed to do a Slowbro 'sweep'.
Skip to Turn 27, http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3717384
 
I'm not entirely sure about where this would go, but I know I have been running Slowbro in OU in a core with Charge Beam Blissey, and has been working very, very effectively. I know that Slowbro has been placed in UU, but I genuinely think that it has massive capabilities in OU. Utilising Calm Mind, Slowbro can pick up an uninvested Sp.Def stat of about 400-600.
...and along came Thundurus-T. Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 2HKO even if Slowbro is at +2 CM.
Genesect at +1 will 2HKO Slowbro at +1, always.
Choice Specs Latios 2HKOs at +1.
Tornadus-T Hurricane does 50% hp at +1.
Venusaur unboosted Giga drain also does 60%+ at +1.

If you're not packing Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, something like Gyarados/Dragonite can come in and set-up a sub+DD all over you. If you're packing BoltBeam, you lose coverage on a lot of other things - Tyranitar etc + steels.
Toxic also hampers Slowbro's ability to 'sweep'.

So, Slowbro has trouble with rain, sun, and many sub-setup sweepers. That's pretty major stuff.
 
I don't think Ferrothorn really "counters" Dragons. It basically needs Drizzle up to withstand their fire attacks. And all Dragons usually carry Fire Attacks.

If you're not packing Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, something like Gyarados/Dragonite can come in and set-up a sub+DD all over you. If you're packing BoltBeam, you lose coverage on a lot of other things - Tyranitar etc + steels..
I don't think Slowbro learns Thunderbolt.
 
This is the only set slowbro should ever be running... ever. This isn't UU, almost all teams have 2 or more pokemon that can easily dispatch CM slowbro, don't use it, resides Reunicles is better in every aspect.

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Slack Off

Scald is needed stab, ice beam for dragons / Gliscor / Landorus and psychic for Terrakion, Cloyster, and Gyarados. Slack off heals.

Literally the only wiggle room here is psychic < psycho shock to deal with Terrakion better in the sand, but I have found hitting Cloyster and Gyarados to be much better. And slack off can in theory be tossed up for another move because of regenerator, toxic and flamethrower / fire blast are the only decent options though, overall I find slack off to be much better.
 
Tis is not actually expressing an opionion here, but just wanted to clarify to tabun on ferro--tehy wrote the pokes LEFT after eliminating those bothered by STABs and twave. So he meant that the only pokes that truly can come in on ferrothorn with impunity and do a lot of damage are breloom, celebi, scizor, heatran, rotom-h, and thundurus. And to be fair, luke can take ferro's STABs, but it doesnt enjoy twave--it has no hope of sweeping when it has to rely on espeed for everything. I really do like luke though, especially on deo-d teams, when paired with a dragon to form a double sweeper combo that works really well with hazards.

I used slowbro a bit in DW and it was extremely impressive. The moveset I ran was something like:
Flamethrower / psyshock / ice beam / toxic
It's kind of weird, but it allows it to do a ton of stuff. With the right EVs, flamethrower 2HKOs ferro outside of rain, while hitting genesect on the switch. Ice beam means that slowbro also functions as a great dragon counter. Psyshock lets it check Keldeo and terrakion, as well as other fighting types. Toxic is really useful for other bulky waters, and for having something to do to stuff like mamo or something. I didn't find myself missing slack off too much, since You can just switch out and regain health, and with that coverage bro doesn't need more than one or two turns to KO its targets.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
You are only saying that I cited rare things, but Landorus with Earth Power (and Earthquake) and Tornadus' Hurricane are common, and I've cited them. They are neutral attacks perfectly capable of destroying Ferrothorn, even if it invests in Special Defense. Both of them even carry Fighting-type attacks, so Ferrothorn is very limited on options that they use that it can switch into. Also, I never said that those attacks could even 2HKO Ferrothorn, but that these attacks, when not 2HKOing, can at least cripple Ferrothorn so that the next switch-in can finish the job. As Ferrothorn lacks reliable recovery, it will be put on a though position (Leech Seed is not sufficient).
I said you cited things that are rare in the case of Cb genesect and bug buzz LO genesect

You are compltely correct that ferrothorn is very limited on options it can switch into. WHICH IS WHY IT DOESN'T EVER SWITCH INTO THEM. And leech seed is close to 18% a turn, with lefties, which is pretty good.

Edit: Maybe genesect and thundurus-T, but tornadus T doesn't switch in THAT easily (Guess regenerator means leech seed matters less), and keldeo? Revenges it true, but still.
 
Thank god, this is being addressed again, :)

I said Ninetales deserved S-Rank before and I say it again now.

The main argument as to why Ninetales isn't S-Rank, at least when I nominated it, was that it wasn't a good pokemon at all, besides the drought support it brought. Regardless if that is true or not, we aren't nominating non-drought Ninetales as S-Rank, we are nominating Drought Ninetales.

The fact that Ninetales summons permanent Sun alone makes it S-Rank material in my eyes. Neither Politoed nor Ninetales would be anywhere near S-Rank if not for weather. People bring up that Politoed is a good pokemon, and is more than just a weather starter, and that's just not true. Politoed would not be used if not for Drizzle. This is the same thing for Ninetales.

Anyway Aldaron definitely worded it better, but I just wanted to throw my support behind it again. For prosperity:



Plus, I have no doubt that many people would say Sun could be a suspect.
The point is that Politoed IS better then ninetails, since he functions as a strong bulky water and isn't stealth rock weak.
 

elodin

formerly papai noel
is a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
Ferrothorn only deservers to be B Tier in BW2. New threats, such as Keldeo, Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T make it really hard to function, not to mention the high use of Breloom, Terrakion and Landorus. The unban of Garchomp was also a big deal, and Ferrothorn struggles to manage him. In BW it was a great wall, in BW2 he's not.

EDIT: Ok, I sounded like Ferrothorn is really bad lol. He is good, just not good enough to be A Tier.

EDIT2: I didn't say they could switch into any Ferrothorn set, I'm just saying that there are new threats that give Ferrothorn a hard time to function.
 
Ninetales is the only poke that can set Sun in OU. It has Nasty Plot, and Energy Ball. It has an easier time wrecking Politoed on the switch in. But a Crippling Stealth Rock Weakness, and typing do hinder it, A Tier.

I would like to nominate Gliscor for A Tier, its one of the best Physical Walls around, capable of living +2 Stone Edges from Terrakion. Poison Heal also gives it great passive recovery, and immunity to status. (It takes on Techniloom pretty well)

It can take on DD Salamence, DD Dragonite, Physical Setup Sweepers in General pretty easily, it also has taunt to stop them from setting up. (It Also has Ice Fang)

It doesn't take on special attackers well though, like Keldeo and Tornadus, but that's what teammates are for. I don't see anything in the A Tier outclassing Gliscor as a physical wall. It now even has access to Roost and Stealth Rock. Deo-D prefers to be Specially Defensive, while Hippowdon also takes on special attackers terribly.

Gliscor is somewhat wrecked by Banded Mamoswine.
 
I'm not 100% sure of Gliscor to A, to be honest. I mean, no doubt, its SubToxic set is fantastic (and very very very annoying), but I've found that as a wall, it's overall quite mediocre and saying it's one of the best physical walls around is really pushing it in my opinion. It can't really switch in on CB Terrakion Stone Edges all that well (in fact, when I was using CB Terrakion, I've actually beaten Gliscor with it multiple times). It doesn't take on Techniloom that well at all. It NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS Taunt to do well against it, but then you're probably dropping Ice Fang, in which case you're doing pathetic damage to Breloom. If Breloom gets a Swords Dance against something else, well, you can kiss your "Techniloom stop" good-bye, because +2 LO five-hit Bullet Seed OHKOes Gliscor after Stealth Rock. Realistically, Gliscor is unlikely to be at full HP, making it do even worse against SD Techniloom (even if Techniloom doesn't pull a five-hit Bullet Seed!). Conkeldurr beats Gliscor now thanks to Ice Punch. Beating DD Salamence? Sure, except for +1 Outrage 2HKOing Gliscor after Stealth Rock and Ice Fang not OHKOing Salamence. Great counter IMO. Not to mention that Gliscor kind of loses to MixMence. Unfortunately, Gliscor suffers the same fate against DD Dragonite and does even worse against CB Dragonite.

Other than that, there's a multitude of other Pokemon that can beat Gliscor: Lati@s, Landorus, Mamoswine, Keldeo, Politoed, Gengar, Rotom-W, etc. I've just found that it's really easy to take advantage of the fact that Gliscor has very exploitable weaknesses and often runs Earthquake as its only attacking move.
 
I'd say Gliscor is B or maybe even C now. Sure, he puts a stop to unboosted, weaker physical attackers, but the metagame is so unkind to stall that teams are putting more and more stock into offense and he can't keep up.

It really doesn't help that Rain is THE best strategy and its best abusers (Genesect, Tornadus, and Keldeo) break Gliscor in half without even trying.
 

alexwolf

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Yeah Gliscor is clear B rank material. Gliscor lost its best offensive set after the banning of Sand Veil, and SubToxic is mediocre. Not to mention that Rain teams being so popular really hamper Gliscor's viability, in addition to the fast pace of the meta, which Gliscor isn't particular fond of. Honestly Landorus-T seems as a much better pick right now in general.

EDIT: Guys Gliscor is already in B rank.
 

GatoDelFuego

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Gliscor is B rank, for sure, but his SubToxic sets, if given a turn of setup, can win games single-handedly. Landorus-T is a much better defensive pivot, but Gliscor can wall much more.
 

alexwolf

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The thing is that because so many teams are offensive, and there are not many Pokemon that Gliscor can wall in each team, even if Gliscor gets a Sub up, it will be able to stall from 2-3 turns max for Toxic damage, which is not enough. Not to mention that very common Pokemon such as Deoxys-D and Taunt Tornadus-T shit all over SubToxic Gliscor... Setting up a Sub on the switch is no more the safest round, forcing Glliscor to predict if it wants to have any impact against teams with such Pokemon.
 

PDC

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Maybe I am the only one who feels this, but I believe that Moltres deserves a C Rank on the viability chart. Moltres may seem like a terrible Pokemon at first glance, but it is truly a gem in the rough. The 4X Stealth Rock weakness stands out immediately, but it has some fantastic use in where it shines. Moltres can make use of it's fantastic Special Attack and solid movepool, while also abusing a strong STAB Hurricane in the Rain, which can destroy teams just as easily as Tornadus - T can. But instead of being walled by Jirachi and friends, Moltres can blast through it with Fire Blast. Moltres has been used to great success previously by great players such as dragonuser and it has proven to not just be deadweight.

Moltres has access to solid enough stats, and although it's typing does suck in some aspects, it can be remedied by it's offensive prowess. Moltres can also be used on Sun teams, giving it's Fire Blast a huge power boost. Weather has given Moltres a solid place on some teams as a viable sweeper in both Sun and Rain, and I believe it belongs with it's electric brother Zapdos in C Rank.
 
the Speed and the 4x Weakness hurt it, considering a lot of stuff outspeed you, I mean A lot. Landorus, Jirachi, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T,Landorus-I, Keldeo, Gengar, Alakazam, Genesect, Hydreigon, etc.


I forgot how Rain dominates the Metagame on my Gliscor Post.
 

alexwolf

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I thought i was the only one that liked Moltres... Agreeing with PDC, Moltres for C Rank! It's Specs set works wonders with Tornadus-T!
 
I like to nominate weavile for C rank.

same functions as mamo just a faster but frailer version. he is fast enough to outspeed tornadus t without relying on ice shard. has low kick to deal with half of the steel types in ou. not to mention a neutral nature atk low kick ohko terrakion and is able to take out 3 of the weather starters by himself(Ttar, hippo, abomasnow) though not the greatest thing but still helpful for a surprise way to win the weather war. though he needs support due to losing 25% of his health due SR. i feel he is great with support since he is frail.
 
I think if Weavile and Moltres are both tiered, they should both be D rank. The definition of D rank.

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

Both Moltres and Weavile do indeed have a tiny niche in the metagame, but it truly is a small niche that requires a ton of support and right team building. One can not just throw either of them on a team as with some C rank pokemon and expect them to shine. Both need rapid spin support. Moltres needs rain support and a specific niche in a team to cover very specific threats, like Weavile does to take on tyranitar and Amomasnow. I can compare this to the only currently ranked D tier pokemon Metagross. If one uses metagross to fufill its specifc niche as a bulky steel tank that can set up hazards, then it indeed can work on a team, at a similar level to moltres and Weavile.

Also looking at the list of B rank pokemon, I think Kingdra, Zapdos, and Xatu all need to be discussed about dropping to C. All of these pokemon yes can be very effective with the right support, Kingdra even game changing, but I feel as though they require a bit to much support for such a high tiering. I am a fan of Zapdos, but it needs the right niche on a team to be used, or else you are better off using something else.
 
i agree with zapdos moving down to C. the only set i see worth running in OU is the subroost set so you can stall imo. plus if they really B rank why are they not used in OU more often then lets say metagross which is our only D rank pokemon.
 
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