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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I don't know how anyone would think Ninetales is S rank. Sure, it offers sunshine, but Ninetales itself sucks at performing any other job other than maybe bulky fodder set, so you can try to win the weather war. Honestly, Ninetales is sand weak, rain weak, stealth rock weak, and although if it wins the war it isn't rain / sand weak, its weak to the opposing inducers, which is the problem. I guess Duggy remedies this issue, but then we could put a whole bunch of Pokemon in S tier (like Dragonite) if we include partners too. Ninetales itself sucks, it's fine where it is. Sun is great, but I find it's pretty predictable and managable and I would rank the entire playstyle A-B at best, no where near S.
  2. bubbly

    bubbly

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    Ninetales is borderline A/S imo. Support it offers is gargantuan, on the other hand as everyone says, it needs support to have a chance against other weather inducers. If Drizzle is banned, as seems very possible, Drought might easily be suspected afterwards
  3. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Sun is certainly not more manageable than sand or rain, and the reason for that is chlorophyll. If you don't have one (sometimes more) dedicated sun counter that doesnt get raped by duggy, Venu/liligant or even victreebell or sawsbuck are going to tear your team apart if you let sun be up too long.

    This is something rain does not have access to due to the SSDrizzle ban, and sand only has 3 true sand abusers (and two of them are NU and the other one is arguably S-tier).
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I am not sure if Ferrothorn really is an A-Tier Pokémon. Sure that all that is true, but Ferrothorn is having some problems on this new metagame. Before BW2, the most effective way to kill Ferrothorn was with Fire-type (and strong Fighting-type) attacks, and for this reason Ferrothorn was, and still is, found mostly on rain teams.

    However, nowadays Ferrothorn is also dying to strong neutral attacks, so for the most part Fire and Fighting-type attacks aren't the only way to deal with the metallic jackfruit. Ferrothorn is dying to Landorus' Earthquake and Earth Power, to Tornadus-T's Hurricane, Genesect's Bug Buzz or Choice Band U-Turn, and many other things. Also, Ferrothorn is not really as good as a check to bulky Water-types. Despite being neutral at worst to most things that they could throw on them, such as Ice Beam, Ferrothorn has difficulty trying to actually defeat Water-types, first because it depends on a innacurate move to do this, and because many of them carry Scald. As Ferrothorn uses physical attacks, a burn renders him mostly useless against even bulky Water-types. Also, Keldeo is a Water-type that can actually defeat Ferrothorn 1x1 due to Secret Sword.

    So, Ferrothorn can't really wall many portions of the metagame, but it is still an amazing Pokémon with acess to really good options, and is somewhat unpredictable. You never know wich entry hazard it is carrying; Stealth Rock, Spikes or both. You never know if it packs Thunder Wave, that can cripple you for the rest of match unless you are a Ground-type or have Volt Absorb. You never know if it is going to Leech Seed you to make you die slowy. You never know it it is carrying Gyro Ball to kill your fast, frail Pokémon.
  5. tehy

    tehy

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    But how are any of those who kill it switching in? Any who do risk leech seed or t-wave;landorus can be gyro balled in the face. And we never relied on it to switch into powerful neutral things;that hasn't exactly changed. If anything, tornadus-T's hurricanes are weaker than tornadus-I's, genesect is new but ferro is toasted by flamethrower anyhow, and it was never asked to wall landorus. The metagame hasn't gone an overwhelming power boost, so it's not like it's suddenly so much worse at taking neutral hits-it's just that anything switching in can be, as you said, paralysed, gyro balled, or leech seeded, which means it's better to be able to OHKO it. Thus, the strong SE moves. The only real change is genesect. Ferro can take bug buzzes and CB u-turns, especially since they are rare. The real issue is... why are you switching him into a genesect anyhow? You'd have to be really desperate for that to be a good idea, or at least great at prediction.

    "as good a check to bulky water-types"
    Other than keldeo, when did this change? Why is it not AS good a check as it was before? No relevant bulky water has had significant changes via BW2 that allows it to challenge ferrothorn much more effectively...
  6. papai noel

    papai noel
    is a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    Ninetales must not be S Rank. Sure, he has Drought, but that's not enough. Ninetales is so bad that he needs support just to summon Sun, which is just switching in. Almost every Sun team needs Dugtrio to get rid of some threats that Ninetales can't handle on his own (Tyranitar, Heatran, etc.), which is something really big. Politoed is on the S Rank because he can summon Rain in a much easier way than Ninetales, being bulkier, having a better typing and supporting more stuff in general, because Rain has many more Pokémon to abuse than Sun. Ninetales only has to switch in and he needs support just to do it. A Tier.

    Ferrothorn should be B Tier nowadays. He is a great Dragon-types counter but he is weak to common Fire and Figthing-type moves, which most dragons carry (Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Superpower, etc). He also fears too much STAB Hurricane, and even though Tornadus-I has a higher Special Attack, back in BW he was not really common. Now the most common thing to see is Hurricane, which makes Ferrothorn's life miserable. In a metagame so offensively oriented, Ferrothorn is even outclassed by other (faster and stronger) hazard users, that don't fear Taunt like him. Of course it is still a great Pokémon, but in such an offensive metagame filled with Scalds and STAB moves he can't even complete its primary niche as a Water-types check sometimes. Ferrothorn is one of my favorite Pokémon, but he really lost some points in BW2. B Tier.

    I'm also supporting Stoutland, Moltres and Hitmontop for C Tier. They're nice.
  7. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Actually Ferrothorn alwas has not as good as a check to bulky Water-types as it seems to be. Ferrothorn walls almost all of them, but a Scald burn seriously hampers Ferrothorn's ability to take bulky Water-types, especially those that have reliable recovery. So it needs to rely more on Leech Seed to do this job. Also, no Rain team these days doesn't have a way to work around Ferrothorn. Pretty much what has been said above by papai noel.

    Also (many Ferrothorn are specially defensive so I'm going to calc with these):

    Detailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Genesect (+Atk) U-turn vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 40,06% - 47,16%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Detailed Result:
    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Ferrothorn (+SpDef) : 50,28% - 59,09%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
  8. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    The common build is Choice Scarf and you don't always have U Turn + Bug Buzz with the right boost ... For every Genesect without Flamethrower, Ferrothorn is a hard counter
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    I still see most people that suggest Ninetales for S rank ignoring her main problems. Nobody is saying (or at least me) that the support that Ninetales is bringing is not super awesome. The serious argument presented against Ninetales being in S rank isn't that Ninetales alone would be NU. Because guess what, Ninetales has Drought, so this is the poke we are discussing about.

    The problem with Ninetales is that it wants support to provide support. Yeah you heard well. It is one of the few support pokes that require a lot of support in order to work well. This is because of the other, much better weather inducers that exist in OU, along with her weakness to SR and her shitty typing and stats, all of which prevent her from doing her job. And this means that it can't fit in any team, as can any poke that is in S rank. Pokes in S rank are capable of fitting in almost any team, because they are so good standalone pokes, that very little support is needed. Ninetales simply does not fit this criteria. Ninetales wants support in order to offer her support, which is why it fits perfectly in A rank.
  10. superstar

    superstar

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    This statement is essentially the reason I think Ferrothorn should be A-tier. No A-Teir Pokemon is going to be perfect, especially a defensive one. However, there are absolutely no defensive Pokemon in A-Tier bar Jirachi and Heatran, and I absolutely put Ferrothorn on their level. Every team needs to have a plan to get past Ferrothorn, otherwise your Dragons will be useless and your water attacks walled. I personally would be more skeptical of a team that easily lets Ferro set up hazards than I would be of a team that is Breloom weak.
    As for stuff getting past it: of course it has weaknesses. In Gen 4, for example, Blissey was arguably A-Tier despite getting destroyed by every single physical attacker. Heatran is A-Tier despite getting murdered by water and fighting attacks; i.e. two common attack types, just like Ferro. Sure, Ferro is not going to wall everything, but it walls what it needs to for a long enough time, and will generally set up SR/Spikes reliably -- this hazard support is what makes it so valuable It is an A-tier support Pokemon.
    Come on, are we really going to only have 3 defensive Pokemon in A-Tier or above?

    EDIT: If we are excluding things that are Genesect weak we are going to have to take half the meta away.

    EDIT2: From the OP: Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

    In my opinion that fits Ferrothorn exactly
  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I never meant to imply that it was more managable, just that with my exprienece as a player, I feel it's quite predictable. I never said it was any less deadly. Chloro sweepers can certainly sweep entire HO teams, and yes, those teams do need to carry a counter. I just meant that I find that the stradegy can easily be stopped with smart playing, (and what better way to perform smart playing when a playstyle is predictable?) and usually most sun teams rely on Duggy / Chloro sweepers to actually do things whereas rain and sand don't.


    Sorry if I was implying that sun was less managable than rain or sand.
  12. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Good Lord, people are still arguing Ninetales for S-Tier. Ninetales requires way too much support for an S-Tier support Pokemon. Done.

    Ferrothorn, imo, should be B-Tierish...Great Dragon Wall and hazards setter. Otherwise pretty much anything can screw Ferrothorn over. Terrakion, Virizion, Lucario, Gensect, Salamence, Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Heatran, Hydreigon, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, Keldeo*the list goes on*, pretty much make his life miserable. Not saying he's a bad 'Mon, just saying that he struggles to be the phenominal wall his stats and typing scream to be.
  13. tehy

    tehy

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    So i was right then. Thanks for explaining my argument in detail, while making it seem like you were countering it.

    And i'm right-you'd never switch it into a plus 1 LO genesect in any case, so it's just the CB genesect, which fails to 2hitko.

    The argument's already been made for it being support, but yeah, that's also why you're wrong-no one ever expects ferrothorn to wall everything, just to set up stuff while not being uber setup bait.

    As for tabuu's argument... "Terrakion, Virizion, Lucario, Gensect, Salamence, Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Heatran, Hydreigon, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, Keldeo".

    I shall first remove everything that can't take a STAB hit without taking SE damage.
    ", Virizion, Lucario, Gensect, Salamence, Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, , Dragonite, Heatran, Hydreigon, , Rotom-H, Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, "

    I'll follow it up with people who hate gyro ball/power whip.
    , Lucario, Gensect, , Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, , Dragonite, Heatran, , , Rotom-H, , Thundurus, And those who hate t-wave
    , , Breloom, Celebi, Scizor, ,, Heatran, ,Rotom-H, , Thundurus
    So that list is the real threat list. It can't wall all that stuff, but no one will EVER ask it to. It just lays hazards, using the threat of t-wave, Gyro ball, Power whip, and leech seed to keep enemies off its back.
  14. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    What? I am actually countering your argument. Ferrothorn must not only avoid Flamethrower at all costs, but must also make sure that Genesect is not using a boosting item, otherwise it will take A LOT from a Bug-type attack, sufficient that the next switch-in will probable finish the job, or at least force Ferrothorn out. So, as rare as they are, Ferrothorn is not going to take Bug Buzz and CB U-Turn with impunity.
  15. tehy

    tehy

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    But no one WANTS it to...

    Think about it-what you're saying is that he can't switch into rare stuff when it's got a download boost too. And while it's predicted perfectly what it will do. And as for the LO variant, it would have to run away anyhow;as for the CB version, after lefties, even with SR, that's still less than half ferro's health.

    As for the bulky water thing, apparently your argument was that it wasn't as good as YOU would think it would be? Except i don't think anyone else ever thought it was a great bulky water counter... maybe before everyone used scald in BW1?
  16. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    You are only saying that I cited rare things, but Landorus with Earth Power (and Earthquake) and Tornadus' Hurricane are common, and I've cited them. They are neutral attacks perfectly capable of destroying Ferrothorn, even if it invests in Special Defense. Both of them even carry Fighting-type attacks, so Ferrothorn is very limited on options that they use that it can switch into. Also, I never said that those attacks could even 2HKO Ferrothorn, but that these attacks, when not 2HKOing, can at least cripple Ferrothorn so that the next switch-in can finish the job. As Ferrothorn lacks reliable recovery, it will be put on a though position (Leech Seed is not sufficient).
  17. Yeezy D

    Yeezy D

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    I'm not entirely sure about where this would go, but I know I have been running Slowbro in OU in a core with Charge Beam Blissey, and has been working very, very effectively. I know that Slowbro has been placed in UU, but I genuinely think that it has massive capabilities in OU. Utilising Calm Mind, Slowbro can pick up an uninvested Sp.Def stat of about 400-600.

    After one Calm Mind, Slowbro's Sp.Def becomes 294 (uninvested, neutral nature). (1.5x)
    After two, its Sp.Def is 392. (2x)
    After three, it is 490. (2.5x)
    After four; 588. (3x)
    Five: 686 (3.5x)
    Six: 784 (4x)

    I know any Pokemon's Sp.Def stat can explode after six Calm Minds, but thats not my point. My point is, after two very easily achievable Calm Minds, it picks up a Sp.Def stat higher than Blissey's max. If Slowbro faces a physically strong Pokemon, it will do next to nothing. It has become my most common Scizor counter, as Bug Bite/U-Turn will only do about 10-22% when at +0 attack. Its ridiculously easy to set up Calm Minds, and when used properly, can wall out a large proportion of the Meta. Coming with its own recovery move, Slack Off, it can 'sweep' most teams, and tank out everything that opposes it.

    I can show a demonstration if you want to see, skip to Turn 27. I was given a bit of trouble from a parashuffling Dragonite in the previous turns, but managed to do a Slowbro 'sweep'.
    Skip to Turn 27, http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3717384
  18. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    ...and along came Thundurus-T. Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 2HKO even if Slowbro is at +2 CM.
    Genesect at +1 will 2HKO Slowbro at +1, always.
    Choice Specs Latios 2HKOs at +1.
    Tornadus-T Hurricane does 50% hp at +1.
    Venusaur unboosted Giga drain also does 60%+ at +1.

    If you're not packing Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, something like Gyarados/Dragonite can come in and set-up a sub+DD all over you. If you're packing BoltBeam, you lose coverage on a lot of other things - Tyranitar etc + steels.
    Toxic also hampers Slowbro's ability to 'sweep'.

    So, Slowbro has trouble with rain, sun, and many sub-setup sweepers. That's pretty major stuff.
  19. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    @Tehy:
    A-Tier Definition- "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently."

    You said: "It can't wall all that stuff, but no one will EVER ask it to. It just lays hazards, using the threat of t-wave, Gyro ball, Power whip, and leech seed to keep enemies off its back. "

    Just what the heck are you trying to argue? ._.
    If you're arguing that it is a top-notch wall, deserving A-Tier status, you are completely ignoring the facts and my arguments, and saying stuff that don't make sense.
    However
    IF you're arguing that it's an A-Tier support Pokemon, I'm a little more open to that arguement. However, it's hard to support your team when freakin' half the metagame scares your @ss off that playingfield.

    Another thing *I'm arguing this because it pertains to Lucari, my favorite Pokemon*. Lucario hates taking Gyro Ball+Power Whip? Dude, Standard Ferro can't do jack-sh!t to Lucario. I'm making an RMT about this Lucario team that is actually fairly/pretty succesful and if I learned one thing, its this:
    Ferrothorn is Lucario's bitch. Lucario sets up alllll over Ferrothorn. Power Whip+Gyro Ball? 20-30% at best. CB? 2HKO. But at that point LUcario will have gotten a +2 and proceed to rape your team. Even Leech seed isn't a problem as Lucario will be OHKOing everything and not taking Leech seed and only LO recoil.
    And how the hell does Celebi hate twave? It's got natural cure. and twave will only weaken ferrothorn's gyro ball man. Scizor hates Powerwhip? yea right. Gyro Ball? oh my lord please. Thundurus? he'll take a hit and f*ck ferrothorn with Focus Blast.
    Look, if you're gunna make a statement, make it accurate use calcs and back it up with facts. please.
  20. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I don't think Ferrothorn really "counters" Dragons. It basically needs Drizzle up to withstand their fire attacks. And all Dragons usually carry Fire Attacks.

    I don't think Slowbro learns Thunderbolt.
  21. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    This is the only set slowbro should ever be running... ever. This isn't UU, almost all teams have 2 or more pokemon that can easily dispatch CM slowbro, don't use it, resides Reunicles is better in every aspect.

    Slowbro @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Psychic
    - Slack Off

    Scald is needed stab, ice beam for dragons / Gliscor / Landorus and psychic for Terrakion, Cloyster, and Gyarados. Slack off heals.

    Literally the only wiggle room here is psychic < psycho shock to deal with Terrakion better in the sand, but I have found hitting Cloyster and Gyarados to be much better. And slack off can in theory be tossed up for another move because of regenerator, toxic and flamethrower / fire blast are the only decent options though, overall I find slack off to be much better.
  22. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Backin up scarfedwynaut here. slowbro is really only meant to tank.
  23. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Tis is not actually expressing an opionion here, but just wanted to clarify to tabun on ferro--tehy wrote the pokes LEFT after eliminating those bothered by STABs and twave. So he meant that the only pokes that truly can come in on ferrothorn with impunity and do a lot of damage are breloom, celebi, scizor, heatran, rotom-h, and thundurus. And to be fair, luke can take ferro's STABs, but it doesnt enjoy twave--it has no hope of sweeping when it has to rely on espeed for everything. I really do like luke though, especially on deo-d teams, when paired with a dragon to form a double sweeper combo that works really well with hazards.

    I used slowbro a bit in DW and it was extremely impressive. The moveset I ran was something like:
    Flamethrower / psyshock / ice beam / toxic
    It's kind of weird, but it allows it to do a ton of stuff. With the right EVs, flamethrower 2HKOs ferro outside of rain, while hitting genesect on the switch. Ice beam means that slowbro also functions as a great dragon counter. Psyshock lets it check Keldeo and terrakion, as well as other fighting types. Toxic is really useful for other bulky waters, and for having something to do to stuff like mamo or something. I didn't find myself missing slack off too much, since You can just switch out and regain health, and with that coverage bro doesn't need more than one or two turns to KO its targets.
  24. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    @Kidogo:
    yeah i realized i flipped out on the poor dude cuz i misread =-=...
    sorry Tehy ._.
    But I will admit, the way you presented your argument was little weird and confusing
  25. tehy

    tehy

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    I said you cited things that are rare in the case of Cb genesect and bug buzz LO genesect

    You are compltely correct that ferrothorn is very limited on options it can switch into. WHICH IS WHY IT DOESN'T EVER SWITCH INTO THEM. And leech seed is close to 18% a turn, with lefties, which is pretty good.

    Edit: Maybe genesect and thundurus-T, but tornadus T doesn't switch in THAT easily (Guess regenerator means leech seed matters less), and keldeo? Revenges it true, but still.
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