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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    I think the largest downside to Ferrothorn is that it gets trapped by Zone rather easily, and it takes either neutral/ heavy damage from all the big hitters in the meta right now - especially the fighting types such as Loom and Terrakion, and neutral from Tornadus-T's Hurricane (which also means massive damage). Not to mention if you put a Sub against Ferrothorn, SpikySeedMan pretty much becomes set-up bait.
    As a wall, it's not that great anymore; even as a support, Jirachi is probably better, faster, and a lot more deadly.
  2. eriados

    eriados

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    Tabuu, can you calm down? there's no need to get so worked up. you're coming of as a real jerk.anyway,I think Jirachi should really be S-rank. It can run a ton of sets, from the classic specially defensive which walls a ton of the metagame, including another S-rank poke, to the CM set, which is an incredibly threatening sweeper in it's own right, and many other sets, like the Scarf revenge killer. The fact that Jirachi can do so many different thins and do well at them too, convinces me that it should be S-rank.
  3. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    This argument is invalid. ANY dragon locked into Outrage is screwed against Ferrothorn since at best it's getting Iron Barb damage + Thunder Wave and at worst it's getting 2HKO'd by Gyro Ball (Kyurem-B has low speed and high physical bulk, Gyro Ball won't OHKO most of the time, meaning it's 2HKO'd like the other dragons who have higher speed and lower defense).

    Nobody in their right mind is going to use Outrage when Ferrothorn is still around, so please let's not gratuitously say that Kyu-B is "bad" because a someone thought it was a great idea to use Outrage knowing full well that Ferrothorn would come in afterwards.

    And Kyurem-B is still going to do massive damage with LO Focus Blast or HP Fire outside the rain. In fact, Ferrothorn is not a safe switch in against ANY OU dragon, which is really bad considering it's a steel type.
  4. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Outrage from DNite still does like 38% to Ferrothorn, and sometimes, you need to use the dragon move to apply pressure (like Latios using DMeteor to be safe, etc.) and it doesn't change the fact the if you DON'T have Ferrothorn, they WILL spam Dragon attacks, and FERROTHORN would be keeping those Dragons in check... So the point is valid because obviously, from your own post, Dragon's will not use Outrage while Ferro is around. Which means my team has less to fear from those big Dragon threats on nearly every offensive team
  5. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Calmed down. Did realize what I was doing, so sorry to Keldeo333. I just have really short patience I guess, when people do not see things the way I do...

    Well what is Jirachi S-Tier for? TBH, I don't think Jirachi can sweep a large majority of the meta. Jirachi as an offensive Pokemon needs quite the support.
    Defensively speaking though, I could throw him up there for S-Tier
  6. TheOnyx

    TheOnyx

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    I agree that Ferro should be A tier. With a slew of resistances, few weaknesses (although common offensive types), and very good defensive stats, and somewhat reliable recovery. Alongside a very useful Dragon type resistance.
  7. morningsun

    morningsun

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    I also agree that Jirachi should be S tier and Ferrothorn A tier.

    Jirachi is the most annoying Pokemon ever. Think about it. If it Paralyzes you (with T-wave or Body Slam), then there's a great chance that it will defeat all of your Pokemon with Iron Head just because they weren't able to move. I'm surprised how seldom this is discussed when talking about Jirachi. Jirachi has excellent typing, giving it 8 resistances and one immunity. This allows it to switch in rather easily, especially considering that the only hazard that really bothers it is Spikes. Jirachi is one of the only Pokemon that is effectively able to play the role of a support Pokemon (by setting up Stealth Rock, spreading status, and wishing) a defensive Pokemon (with sufficient 100/100/100 defenses and the great typing I mentioned earlier) and an offensive Pokemon(with its great coverage, provided by the elemental punche, CM, and, again, the infamous ParaFlinch combo). I would - and I know that I've said this before - even venture to say that it sets up better than Deoxys-D. Not to put down Deoxys-D, since my argument of moving it down has been refuted, but Jirachi provides unbelievable offensive pressure compared to Deoxys. If it wants to set up rocks, it doesn't need to lead. This makes it even less predictable. It almost always gets opportunities to switch in and force a switch. And even then, your opponent may not even know that you're carrying Rocks. For all they know, you might be a scarfed, and in reality, you may be. In this case, it's all a mind game. The only thing it doesn't have is spikes. But I think that survivability, versatility, and the offensive pressure, not to mention wish passing, thoroughly mitigate its flaws and it should definitely go up to S Rank. Honestly, I feel that if there's a suspect, it is Jirachi. Genesect, although very powerful and influential, does so by virtue of brute strength and an awesome ability. Jirachi, on the other hand, is very often luck based, a troll of sorts. It's kind of like Sand Veil, but worse. With a 100% accurate move, you have a better chance of hitting a Pokemon with Sand Veil (or Snow Cloak and other similar items/abilities), than you do Jirachi after it has paralyzed you, which isn't that hard considering it gets Thunder Wave and its Body Slam has a 60% chance to paralyze. I know this may sound a bit redundant, but I truly believe that it is just that good. At least Sand Veil and Snow Cloak require support. And I haven't even begun to touch upon its Specially Defensive set. But I feel that others seem to have done a more than sufficient job. Is there any Pokemon that can do any of Jirachi's plethora of jobs better than it can? I'll leave that up to everyone else because unless anyone else can provide anything better (please, for God's sake, no MEW), I don't see anything holding it back from being S Tier.

    I'll keep Ferro's explanation at the very least relatively short:
    It is the premier mixed/physical wall in the game right now. I'll say again that I feel this more than even Deoxys-D. It is the sole reason for the exile of so many of DPP's top threats to UU, including Swampert. It is able to set up rocks and spikes, which is huge in this meta. It has great defensive typing. It is part Steel type, invaluable against all of the Dragons plaguing OU. I may not have much experience using Ferro, but I have plenty using mence, Latios, and D-nite and it is true: I hesitate to use Outrage or Draco, solely because I know that this guy is on the opposing team. Gyro Ball also hits a lot harder than expected, especially against all the boosters in the meta. Leech Seed stall is also viable. And I know that the game has become heavily offense oriented, but I also know that hazards are very advantageous on HO and Ferro provides them. Unlike many of the other defensive pokes, it cannot be completely mollified by a single Pokemon. It also does not need to come in first and with rain, the prevalent weather, up, it only has one weakness, albeit to a somewhat common type.
  8. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Genesect is under suspect nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah. LOL, anyways, I'm not surprised in the slightest. He was born into S-Tier and might get banned. However, I personally want the thing to stick around; we need a diverse OU World :)
    Anyways. Continue to discuss haha, this was just my thoughts on 'Sect
  9. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    Genesect sticking around and having a diverse OU is mutually exclusive.

    My teams don't have issues with Genesect as I only really use 2 teams. 1 of which is a stall team with Blissey and Heatran (both of which make Genesect's life hell) and the other being a dual screen team preventing Genesect from revenge killing my Dragons and Scizor. I didn't necessarily build my teams in any way to specifically counter genesect, it was more coincidental than anything.

    However in terms of the metagame as a whole, Genesect causes so much pressure for the majority of offensive teams. Seeing Genesect on 1/3-1/2 of all teams just doesn't make playing OU fun. Not that I personally have trouble with it, but because it gets boring and stale very fast and if I were to ever make a more standard type of team, you better believe Genesect would be at the very top of my threat list.
  10. morningsun

    morningsun

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    I think I came across a bit wrong in saying what I meant. I meant that Jirachi, IMO, is more of a threat than Genesect. I run a Chandelure which shuts Genesect down completely. Also, if and when lure gets Shadow Tag, Genesect's usage is going to plumit. But I will also concede that Genesect is definitively suspect and also that it is really boring to see it on so many teams.
  11. TheOnyx

    TheOnyx

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    Really, i think the only reason Genesect is suspect, is just because of the sheer usage(over 50% holy shit), and over-saturation of it. Sure i won't deny that it's an amazing Pokemon in OU, but honestly, i've never really had that much trouble with it. But maybe that's just luck.
  12. morningsun

    morningsun

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    Yes, Genesect, very surely, does have its counters. I think that they'll rise in usage and then Genesect's usage will drop which will lead to decrease of Genesect counters and so on and so forth until the end of the BW2 era. I honestly feel that the only reason to ban it is the over-centalization, again, not that he doesn't deserve it, but I feel like people go a bit overboard sometimes with what ends up becoming a fad.
  13. Doron

    Doron

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    Kyurem-B is garbage. It doesn't deserve A-Rank. It's too slow for the current metagame and has a terrible defensive typing and a weakness to SR. The result is a bulky pokemon that really isn't that bulky despite access to Roost, or a fast offensive pokemon that just really isn't that fast.

    KB deserves B or even C-Rank.

    I vote Ferrothorn for A-Rank, but I'll let a better OU player with a better understanding of the metagame make a better argument for the spiky devil.

    P.S.: Gothitelle is too slow and too weak to perform consistently, if even occasionally, in the OU tier. Get that shit out of there. Also, nice to see that Scizor is B-Rank, appropriate for the kind of pokemon it is.
  14. TheStriker

    TheStriker

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    I notice that Infernape is C-Rank, but it should be D-Rank really. Infernape is neverused basically, I mean look at the statistics because of its crappy typing. Rain is getting more popular every day and this will backfire.
  15. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    While I hate every Fire starter not named Blaziken, I'm on the fence about Infernape's placement. I get the feeling that its presence in the tier is because its capabilities of going mixed are still really decent. It can also U-turn out of anything that doesn't care about its STABs, which are still rather potent in today's metagame.

    That said, its most potent attacks when using STAB tend to backfire on it, either by lowering its stats (-2 SpA or -1 Def/-1 SDef from Overheat/Close Combat, respectively) or from recoil damage (Flare Blitz, and Life Orb). Its movepool is also average on both spectrums, which makes running Iron Fist sets more trouble than their worth part of the time. For Special sets, it's got a slightly better time thanks to Grass Knot, but it's reliant on Vacuum Wave for Fighting-type STAB, or Focus Blast otherwise.

    As for Jirachi in S Rank and Ferrothorn in A Rank, though, I agree with both.
    I'd probably even argue Ferrothorn for S Rank, as it single-handedly shaped the B1W1 metagame by forcing former veterans, such as Swampert, Bronzong, and Kingdra, down to the lower tiers among other things it's done to cause the tier to somewhat focus on handling it. Although, I'm more fine with Ferrothorn in A Rank, honestly.
  16. Crackstar

    Crackstar

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    Honestly, I disagree completly. Infernape should be moved up a rank, if anything.
    That's Infernape. It cannot sweep through all the metagame, but it wrecks slower offensive teams with its coverage and power and can even threaten stall with the really really really rare SD or NP sets, which are surprisingly good. It does have flaws, namely the fact that almost all weathers hurt it beside sun, and no one runs it in sun when they could be running something like Victini, and that sometimes it doesnt have enough power to break teams that aren't really weakened, but it's still dangerous. I mean, that coverage and speed has often forced me into a switch-out predict game, and with a layer of Rocks and Spikes on my side, that could be the death knell for me. Rain hurts it in that you cannot use fire attacks except for on something like Thorn, but the real threat is Close Combat, and the fact that most of the things that can take CC are usually weak to a special coverage move. And by the way, if your trying to use Infernape as anything but a late-game cleaner without a scarf, your doing it wrong. Nape for B-rank
  17. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    It's because unless you have something that can counter it, it can sweep a team with RP. If it's scarf it's constantly chipping away at your team while it stays largely unphased. If you do run a counter it really hurts your ability to do with other threats. Heatran gets owned by genedug. Being able to take out Genesect often means that you're less able to deal with other threats. The best solution to deal with Genesect is just to use it yourself.
  18. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
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    I am willing to argue strongly for cubes A tier placement. What you have in him is a VERY powerful attacker who's hits are effective nukes from both sides of the spectrum. There is no other pokemon in OU with cubes combined offenses, and he really does have a typing that allows him to perform a few things if you scratch the surface. Ice/ Dragon looks very bad on paper, but a resistance to water is VERY major in the rain dominant metagame right now, and I'd go as far to say that the grass resistance is very nice too, allowing you to take on Venusaur under sun as well as Celebi. Although it is true his weakness to common priority is a burden, as well as his weakness to revenge killers such as Terrakion and Salamence, by utilizing substitute revenging him is now a lot harder. Back to his 2 very nice resistances, the water resist makes him one of THE best pokemon to have when up against a rain team. Switch into a weak water type attacker (scarf toed, many weak scald users) and get that sub off utilizing his great bulk and watch as you can then wreck havoc on the team. Both of rains common steels in Ferrothorn and Jirachi don't stand much of a chance with the appropriate coverage move (Focus Blast and Earth Power Respectively). Once you have the steels out of the way, outrage or Dragon claw will be putting the hurt onto them. Another option is the Sub + Hone Claws set which is best used alongside a spikes user. A +1 Dragon Tail does plenty of damage on its own, but when factoring in SR + A layer of spikes, the opponent will be taking plenty of damage very quickly, especially if you get some lucky drag outs. The CB set trades some of this off for the ability to muscle its way through everything in OU not of the steel type. With that much power at its disposal, you are probably going to sac something if your running an offensive team, and if your using stall one of your physical walls will be likely to be heavily crippled, leaving you open to an attack from another physical sweeper

    Overall very worthy of his A tier placement

    I also disagree with your gothielle point. We all know its neither fast nor strong (well tbf using either specs or scarf it can have a reasonable damage output / speed), but its ability makes up for that in spades. If your choice item abuser locks itself into the wrong move, gothielle can take advantage of that most times and trap you and promptly dispose of you and then get out. Gothielle is basically a bulkier version of dugtrio who happens to trap everything bar shed shell users in the tier, and it can really help offensive teams against stall teams, by taking out the teams sweepers counters by utilizing gothielle. The uncommon yet good Sub + CM can be a Sub + Charge Beam Magenzone like pokemon, taking large advantage of choice items and boosting up to insane levels and then taking out at minimum 1 other pokemon once its done its job. We all know how effective trappers are in this meta come on, goth has loads going for it. It fits the B tier placement perfectly

    Also please stop with the mew discussion, its goddam annoying, I doubt very much its going higher than B >:(
  19. emirinho

    emirinho

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    I totally agree with Asek. Kyurem-B has incredible attack and an incredibly strong offensive pressure nearly as strong as Terrakions (if not,in some points, stronger). It doesnt need to much help to accomplish its role. With a versatile move-set he can have max 2 good counters which can be nullified by other Kyurem-B's teammates.
    Please keep in mind that we are talking about A-rank for kyurem-b not S-rank. It is obvious that he can not do everything by himself. However, with a little help of his teammates and a proper use of this monster can lead to great results.
  20. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
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    Yeah, I'd definitely agree that Ferrothorn is an A tier Pokemon, I said this a few pages back but there was a lot of opposition. Despite how offensive the metagame is, Ferrothorn is still fitting in on so many offensive teams, which is something that very very few defensive Pokemon can actually do, such as Politoed. It is the premier hazard setter in the tier, and it does an excellent job of it. As well as also having arguably the two best resistances, Water and Dragon. It finds so many opportunities to switch in and set up hazards / status and imo is much better than any other common hazard setter in the tier. It can literally hold offensive teams together, just by being on the team, providing so many useful resistances and even in Rain having your Fire weakness halved is amazing, especially when you can beat Magneton / Magnezone trying to trap you under Rain.

    As for Gothitelle, it's a solid B-Rank Pokemon and it does something that no other Pokemon in the tier can rival. When you use Gothitelle you really should be playing it to it's strengths. It's slow with decent Special Attack and average bulk, so don't expect it to be breaking through Ferrothorn in Rain with a Choice Scarf set. People talking about the support Ninetales and Politoed bring can help out other Pokemon on your team, well Gothitelle literally does the same. Everytime you send it in on something slower, you can remove it. Just like that. Especially given how offensive the metagame is right now with most teams carrying something like 5 sweepers and one wall, Gothitelle can trap said wall leaving your opponent open to your sweepers. That on it's own is enough to make it B-Tier, maybe at best pushing into A-Tier. Removing one Pokemon on your opponent's team can literally win you matches in one turn, it's incredible how underrated Gothitelle is. Even when you get matched up against the more rare stall team, all you need to do is send in Gothitelle against something, and KO it. It's not often stall teams carry something to outright OHKO Gothitelle, so you can repeat this several times, getting rid of 2 or 3 Pokemon in one match. Not to mention it can fit on literally any offensive team and do well, something that is particularly relevant and effective in this metagame.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    It seems that the general consensus is that Ferrothorn should be A rank, and i agree with this. Ferrothorn in rain is one of the best defensive Pokemon in OU, if not the best, as well as the best hazard setter together with Deoxys-D. While it is true that many offensive Pokemon can deal huge damage to it, if not OHKO it, they all have trouble coming into it. Which means that all that Ferrothorn needs against an offensive team is one free switch, and then it starts to get really frustrating for the opponent to deal with. With SR down, Leech Seed + Protect is a nightmare to deal with. Any choiced Pokemon that tries to force Ferrothorn out fails miserably, while getting its health leeched. Any set-up sweeper has to take SR + 2 rounds of Leech Seed (36% of its life) if it wants to come in against Ferrothorn, and set-up. And you can easily go to your check, which will get healed too. Not to mention that Ferrothorn murders the most common spinner found in offensive teams, Starmie, which means that Ferrothorn has no difficulty at all keeping SR on the field, preventing many dangerous pokes, such as Dragonite, Volcarona, and Genesect from getting too many switches. Finally Ferrothorn is one of the best Dragon checks in the game, both physical and special, and in rain cannot be OHKOed by any of them, bar SD Haxorus, while it can OHKO back, or T-Wave them, and also punish them for using Outrage with Iron Barbs.
    (It would be the best water-type counter if not for that damned Scald... I want Shield Dust Ferrothorn now!!!)

    Ferrothorn for A rank already.

    Jirachi is a superb A rank pokemon, but it should stay there. It isn't the best sweeper, nor the best defensive pokemon, and it surely isn't the best support pokemon. It does all three roles well, true, but it doesn't excel in any of those imo. It's claim to fame, being the only counter to Torn-T in OU, helps it a lot, but is not enough to push it to S rank. Let's see its two best sets, specially defensive and SubCM:

    1. Specially Defensive

    This set walls a ton of special attackers such as Lati@s, Starmie (outside of rain), Tornadus-T, Alakazam, Genesect (in rain), Reuniclus, and Gengar. It is also a very good check to Dragon types, as it can easily absorb Outrages and DMs and paralyze their users back. Finally it can pass Wishes to its teammates, and set-up SR, making it a very good team player. However, Jirachi gets destroyed by too many Pokemon to be considered an S rank defensive poke. Garchomp, Landorus, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Heatran, Hippowdon, Magnezone, Mamoswine, and Rotom-W are all very common pokes that can OHKO Jirachi, wall it and slowly kill it, or even set up on it. I am not even counting checks such as Politoed, fat Starmie, Tentacruel, Jellicent, Forretress, and Skarmory, which usually walk all over Jirachi, because Thunder is always a possibility on rain Jirachis (in which case Thundurus-T, Landorus, Landorus-T, Landorus, and Garchomp are a nightmare for Jirachi). Also Jirachi has to rely on Wish for healing, which results on it having heavy 4MSS, because without Protect it can't wall special attackers that reliably, and has to spend more time making sure that it stays in tip top shape, and with Protect it can't use SR or U-turn, resulting to limited utility and inability to avoid getting trapped and set up on by Magnezone. For all those reasons SpD Jirachi is not an S rank poke, imo.

    2. SubCM

    This set is the single setup sweeper with the most setup chances than anything else. Jirachi can wall and/or force out a ton of Pokemon, and thus setting up a Sub is a piece of cake. After setting up a Sub, Jirachi can either start setting up CMs, if the opponent brought in something wrong thinking they were dealing with SpD Jirachi (Roar-less Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Skarmory), or straight up attack, paralyzing everything in the meantime, and thus getting even more chances to setup. If Jirachi carries Water Pulse the luck factor becomes even more deciding, and makes dealing with it even harder. However, SubCM Jirachi has many common counters and checks, exactly as SpD Jirachi did. SpD Hippo, Gastrodon, SpD Celebi, Roar Heatran, Garchomp, and Ninetales all hard counter SubCM Jirachi, while Landorus, Dugtrio, CB Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, Hydreigon, and CB Scizor are all good checks. Finally anything faster than Jirachi, meaning plenty of pokes, that can deal upwards of ~60% to it makes for a pretty good revenge killer. For all those reasons SubCM Jirachi is not an S rank poke, imo.

    Jirachi has other effective sets as well, such as Sub + 3 attacks, Scarf, WishCM, and SubToxic, but those are not as good as the ones i mentioned, and have more limited use in general. So only one question remains. Is the versatility that Jirachi has, due to the ability to run two very effective sets that play very different, enough to make it S rank? The answer is no for two reasons. First, there are still many popular pokes that can counter both sets simultaneously, namely SpD Hippo, Gastrodon, and Roar Heatran. Second even if you guess wrong the first time, you won't get punished hard for doing so. I brought in my SpD Celebi thinking that Jirachi was SubCM and i got hit by Body Slam instead? No big deal i will switch out, having lost little damage and healing the paralysis. You brought in defensive Politoed thinking that the opposing Jirachi was a SpD variant, and it suddenly made a Sub? Again no big deal, your least valuable member (SubCM Jirachi is used in rain teams, against which defensive Politoed is the least valuable member) lost ~50% of its health while getting a Perish Song off. Now you know how to deal with it the next time, and it will be able to throw two more attacks at best before getting forced out (Protect on Politoed).

    tl;dr Keep Jirachi in A rank.
  22. TheOnyx

    TheOnyx

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    I agree that Jirachi should remain A-rank. It is superb, but it isn't really as good as Genesect, Terrakion, Politoed, and Deo-D
  23. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    I see Jirachi and Terrakion as close to one another in powerlevel, but Terrakion is much more specialized. I really don't see any harm in keeping Jirachi in A.
  24. morningsun

    morningsun

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    I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. It is widely excepted that Jirach forces switches. If it has set up a Sub and your Politoed is in against it, it can KO with Thunder. Let's say that it's next move is something like Flash Cannon, which is recommended by Smogon. You send in a Ground type. On the first turn, you break it's sub. It Flash Cannons. You get an accuracy drop. Now, on the second turn it flash cannons again. If your counter is a neutral Garchomp, then you very well will not OHKO Jirachi with EQ. Jirachi keeps using Flash Cannon. Every time. The chance of you hitting it decreases. It will in this scenario have effectively neutered your weather inducer and your sweeper before it is KO'd. That is invaluable, especially if you're running Jirachi on a non-rain team. I know we can all agree that Garchomp is powerful enough to be used as an example. SubCM Jirachi is very good. And, again, Deoxys-D is in the S tier for setting up entry hazards, which may or may not have a huge impact on the game and can be spun away. Also, any good player will only a lot it the chance to set up rocks. No spikes. Why? Because it can be 2HKO'd by faster threats. Everything has counters and the better the Pokemon the higher the usage of it as well as its counters. Jirachi is a premier support Pokemon. Although some Pokemon may be able to pass larger Wishes, they definitely cannot do it as effectively. Some can set up Rocks. But how many can keep them up? Jirachi can run the appropriate move to take out any spinner that it wants to. It's coverage is something that makes it even more great. There are common sets and more common moves, but there are no definite sets. A Jirachi user can run whatever they wish to on their Jirachi. Jirachi can fit onto any team to play any role just as, if not more, effectively than anything else. It can fill any given niche to the Tee. That is what makes it so great: it's ability to fill any niche that one could want on any give team.
  25. evillocke

    evillocke

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    What about Ninetails in S-rank? It can Toxic, Will-o-wisp, and set up sun! Why is it still A-Rank? It can also shoot off solarbeams at toeds that try to come in. Iv'e used it with great success. Ferrothorn for A-Rank and Jirachi staying in A-rank.
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