Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Life Orb? Where the fuck did that come from? Who uses Deo-D as an attacker?
There's a set that has Stealth Rock, Spikes (one of these can be replaced by Taunt or Recover if I remember correctly), Psycho Boost and HP Fire or Thunder. This set isn't meant to be used as an common attacker, like a bulky Rotom-W. This set is meant to beat spinners and hazard setters, like Tentacruel (Psycho Boost), Starmie (Thunder) Forretress and Ferrothorn (HP Fire). The Life Orb is necessary because only then its attacks will be strong enough to OHKO the aforementioned threats, even with max investiment in SpA and a Modest nature.

EDIT: Ninja'd by alkinesthetase
 
Genesect is obviously the new craze of the metagame, but I don't think it really warrants dropping these otherwise solid Pokemon. Zam is still a great Pokemkn that has many uses as a back up revenge killer or offensive check. It can easily take on HO teams with ease from my experience and is a pretty cool Pokemkn to use in general. I really don't think Alakazam deserves to be dropped, we should at least wait until the suspect test ends until we make any decisions. Alakazam also can deal a heavy amount of damage with Focus Blast or Hidden Power Fire, not making it completely helpless. Being immune to weather and hazards is a gift and really allows it to shine. Alakazam deserves to stay where it is. I don't like how it can easily be taken advantage of, but Zam was given a gift this generation of a great ability and makes use of it fine. Even better it can defeat and outspeed Terrakion, Landorus - I, Garchomp, Latios, Gengar and Starmie with ease.

Haxorus I can agree with as it never was really an amazing Pokemon to me anyway, especially with Genesect running around. It had some pretty cool roles in BW1 as it could slam through walls with ease and do a great job at setting up and sweeping, not being forced to use Outrage thanks to Mold Breaker. Taunt was also a pretty cool move to use as you can prevent slower hazard users like Heatran, Deoxys -D ( Jolly ), Forretress and Skarmory. Haxorus just isn't as good anymore personally and just fails to do well. Dragonite is honestly a better dancer as it has more uses like bulky sets, support sets, acess to priority so it doesn't get screwed over by faster weakened Scarfers like Keldeo, Latios and Landorus. It also is a great counter to Breloom as it can easily take Mach Punch or Bullet Seed while Lum Berry can cure status of Spore if needed. Lower Haxorus as it doesn't have as many uses.

Hydreigon is a great Poke, people just don't use it much. It has some distinct advantages over Latios. It may be slower but it has acess to Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Earth Power, Superpower, Work Up, and acess to the strongest viable Draco Meteor in the game. Latios is not going to be running a Modest Nature, which Hydreigon does just fine as Timid doesn't offer many distinct advantages. Hydreigon doesn't need to be walled by Jirachi or other bulky special walls like Blissey thanks to Fire Blast and Flamethrower. It is not helpless to Genesect as Genesect is not going to be coming into any move from Hydreigon aside from Dark Pulse or Earth Power that will do less than 50% to it. Hydreigon is an awesome Pokemon who is sadly overshadowed by Latios. It has some flaws though like that weakness to virtually all priority that is commonly seen. But overall it really is a solid choice for teams that often gets overlooked a lot for the faster choices like Latias and Latios. Hydreigon getting Roost and Superpower gave him even more viability as it can now break stall up pretty easily while still staying Healthy. Hydreigon also has access to U-Turn to gain momentum which is just another amazing choice. I would argue Hydreigon for A Rank, but that's for another post.
I instantly regretted mentioning Alakazam or Hydreigon, because I was flat out wrong. I've gotta have more of a sense of balance. Have to, since I get graded on this shit. I actually agree with both of your points, especially Hydreigon;If this were BW1, I wouldn't hesitate to move it up to A-tier... though Genesect hampers it pretty badly. B-tier is pretty good for it, and perhaps if Genesect gets the boot, the overall pace of the game drops and rain is less common I could see maybe rising.

As for Haxorus... i'm legitimately considering dropping it to C-tier. I'm a huge Haxorus fan, but even I have to admit that you're better off running the other physical Dragon types. And no, this has nothing to do with Kyurem-B, Genesect basically murdered its viability. I mean i've used it semi-successfully on suspect, but I could only get use out of CB (everything else was rendered useless) and CB was only good at getting trade kills (which i'm not really a fan of). I wouldn't hesitate to reverse it if Genesect were to get banned, but as it stands using Haxorus in OU... bleh

thoughts?
 
I agree that Haxorus has really lost the luster it barely had. It has so much competiton for its typing, no thanks to the recent drops of Garchomp and KyuB. Especially with Kyub down, it loses its niche of "dragon with rediculously high attack" that still left it subpar compared to every other OU dragon. I think c's clause of "eclipsed by a Pokemon in a higher tier" defines Haxy perfectly.

I'd like to see Virizion put in D tier. It's type coverage and lack of dedicated offensive stat make it difficult to use without boosting, and it doesn't accomplish as much as special OU boosters who have access to NP or Quiver Dance, Breloom outclasses the physical one with Tech Punch. And while its speed is nice, OU is rampant with Scarfed threats. Virizion has no way to raise its speed, so even after it boosts up, its unlikely to use the boosts on more than one Pokemon at best.

I'm interested in where people think Ninjask, Chandelure and Mienshao should go, all being OU at one point or another and being interesting Pokemon in general. I'd say C, C/B, C myself.
 
The problem is that Haxorus doesn't have a niche anymore.

Choice Band - Kyurem-B
Choice Scarf - Salamence
Pure Sword Dance/Sub Dance - Garchomp
Dragon Dance - Dragonite

The Double Dance set was really it's last niche, and it's slaughtered by Genesect.
 

SJCrew

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I'm not seeing Chandelure any higher than D-tier. It has a ridiculously non proportionate enemy to target ratio, including Rain itself. The only thing it can do right now is function as a poor check to Genesect. If we do include it on the list, it should only serve as an example of something that's still receiving usage but should not be, like Metagross.

I'll also agree that Haxorus is C-tier. It has very small advantages over the other Dragons, but that does not make it worth using.
 
Support. Insane power doesn't mean much when you has a terrible typing (defensively, and offensively Dragon/Ice is redundant), middling speed and shallow movepool. STAB Outrage from a 170 base attack is so appealing... but when you see Kyurem-B's drawbacks, you actually start to get away from it in lieu of other, less powerful but faster Dragons that have better typing. So, it's a B-Tier pokémon easily. Kyurem-B's potential lies on wall/stallbreaking, but defensive teams aren't so common to justify this usage, and even then Kyurem-B faces competition as a stallbreaker with a lot of things, such as mixed Salamence, Mew and SubCM Jirachi. Kyurem-B may be a good choice if you still have problems with stall/defensive teams, but as Pocket said it's not going to sweep anytime soon.
I'm sorry, but no.
The only difference between Kyurem-W and Kyurem-B is the movepool and we all saw how devastating the former is. Typing and speed are definitely not the problem here.
Its typing isn't even that bad - lack of ice weakness is amazing for a dragon and it can't be stressed enough.
Kyurem-B has enough bulk to live through some of the most powerful attacks in the tier and should make use of it instead of wasting EVs in speed. You're not supposed to play it like the other fast and frail dragons.
Kyurem-B is the ultimate wallbreaker in OU and thus it deserves its A rank, in fact I'd even argue for S because it does its job that well.

This set in particular should tell you just how insanely strong Kyurem-B is:

Kyurem-Black @ Chople Berry
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant/Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Focus Blast / HP Fire
- Ice Beam

Terrakion fails to OHKO after rocks with Choice Band Close Combat, while Kyurem-B OHKO's in return with Outrage after SR damage.
Needless to say, Breloom and Keldeo fall too.
Yes, Kyurem-B doesn't even need LO to do that.
Even without a resist berry, Scizor's Bullet Punch has a very high chance not to OHKO after rocks, while Kyurem-B can OHKO with HP Fire in return if it's not raining.
It also allows Kyurem to survive assorted Focus Blasts from the likes of Thundurus-T and Gengar, who are swiftly OHKO'd in return.
As you can see, Kyurem-B has enough power and bulk to get past its premier checks.
If played correctly this set is guaranteed to net you 2 kills per match, no questions asked.

It's also far more versatile than it seems - if Chople Berry isn't your cup of tea you can run SubRoost, Choice Band, LO special attacker (its second best set, IMO) and even Dual Screens work on it because nobody in their right mind would even think to Taunt it.
Such versatility and effectiveness can't be ignored.
 

SJCrew

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Kyurem-B's typing is one of the biggest hurdles it has to face. In exchange for the Ice neutrality, it has many weaknesses that most other Dragons don't, and its lack of Spikes immunity makes it complete fodder to Deo-D offensive teams. In fact, it misses out on almost everything that makes other OU Dragons awesome. No Spikes immunity, no powerful set up moves, no Mach Punch resistance, no threatening movepool...nothing. All it has is a powerful Outrage and great bulk. The problem is, Dragonite and Garchomp have those things too, amongst others, which makes them solid candidates for A-tier. Kyurem-B can't even do half of the things they can.

Also, the set you proposed is pretty useless. It'll get one hit in at best vs offensive teams then die immediately the next turn. On top of that, its counters are pretty much the same: Jirachi, Scizor, entry hazards of any kind. Outside of a surprise kill, there's no real payoff.
 

Pocket

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Kyurem-B's physical bulk isn't something to flaunt about either, since Ice-type pretty much botched that up. Haxorus, for instance takes Close Combats, Mach Punchs, and Bullet Punch, etc much better than Kyurem-Black. Its special bulk is worth distinguishing it from other dragons, though (well same can be said for Kyurem >_<)
 
Kyurem-B's physical bulk isn't something to flaunt about either, since Ice-type pretty much botched that up. Haxorus, for instance takes Close Combats, Mach Punchs, and Bullet Punch, etc much better than Kyurem-Black. Its special bulk is worth distinguishing it from other dragons, though (well same can be said for Kyurem >_<)
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 277-328 (91.72 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Pocket EDIT: Yea, but how much does Kyurem-B takes? It needs max HP with some Def EVs to even survive a Close Combat from Scarf Terrakion.

No, not really.

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 56 HP / 76 Def Kyurem-B: 254-302 (62.71 - 74.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Just a minor investment in that bulk allows it to survive that attack even after Stealth Rock.
And for fun:
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 304-359 (100.66 - 118.87%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 247-292 (63.17 - 74.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

How does a fully Specially defensive set(Max HP/Max Spdef+) fare against Tornadus-T?
Hurricane: 38.54 - 45.81%
Superpower: 49.77 - 59.03%
Never a 2hko without SR. Kyuem-B decides to retaliate:
0 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 276-326 (92.3 - 109.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(or Life Orb recoil).
 
I'm wondering if Heatran should be classified as defensive or support. On one hand, it counters all Genesect unless they are running HP Ground-which can be blocked with Balloon-on the other hand, it makes a great supportive mon with Stealth Rock, Roar, and Lava Plume for burns. Oh, and if this topic has already been settled, can a mod just delete this post. Thanks and I hope I contributed something intelligent.
 
I question whether Thundurus-T really deserves to be A tier, this thing is a far cry from its Incarnate form from BW1. 101 base Speed and Volt Absorb just isn't the same as 111 base Speed an Prankster. It has more SpA, that's it, although Incarnate could use Nasty Plot whereas Therian needs to rely on Agility to sweep in most cases, so it's inferior even in that department. This Pokemon is SR weak, frail, difficult to set up with due to the aforementioned reasons, and is easily revenge killed. Oh look, Thundurus-T used Nasty Plot, dang it, I guess I'll just... revenge kill it with pretty much anything. Oh look it used Agility, I guess I'll just... send in a generic special wall like Jirachi or Blissey. The Choice Scarf set is great on paper... except that Scarf Keldeo, Genesect, Salamence, Garchomp etc all hit harder. Perhaps if Genesect/Keldeo weren't the go to revenge killers on like every team, Scarf Thundurus-T would be a top tier Pokemon.

Thundurus, to me, just seems so much weaker than the other A tier offensive Pokemon. Dragonite's Multi Scale helps make up for basically every problem Thundurus faces. It's easier to switch in, set up, more difficult to revenge kill, you name it. Garchomp trolls Thundurus-T in terms of Speed and has better STAB coverage than Thundurus-T has coverage. Keldeo actually has a way to bypass special walls thanks to Secret Sword, whereas Thundurus needs a Nasty Plot up to do the same, and lets not lie, Nasty Plot Thundurus is just begging to get revenge killed. Lati@s have superior bulk and Speed, which makes it so much easier to get in and spam Meteors or start setting up Calm Minds. Salamence is perhaps the only Pokemon on this list that Thundurus-T can hold a candle to, as it suffers from pretty much all the same problems. Intimidate at least makes it easier to set up, and Dragon>>>>Electric STAB. Finally, Tornadus-T, who suffers from the same frailness issues as Thundurus-T, has better Speed to avoid revenge kills as well as Regenerator to mitigate Steath Rock issues.

The only saving grace IMO is it's Mixed set, which when played correctly, can dispose of annoying shit like Blissey and Gastrodon so you can let your Starmie, Tornadus-T, and whoever else spam moves to their heart's content. Even so, Thundurus is borderline A-tier at best, and feels lackluster compared to other offensive A-tier threats.

TLDR: Thundurus-T overrated, move down to B-tier.

I'm wondering if Heatran should be classified as defensive or support. On one hand, it counters all Genesect unless they are running HP Ground-which can be blocked with Balloon-on the other hand, it makes a great supportive mon with Stealth Rock, Roar, and Lava Plume for burns. Oh, and if this topic has already been settled, can a mod just delete this post. Thanks and I hope I contributed something intelligent.
Heatran pretty much does it all, that's why it's A tier. Multiple niches=multiple chances of finding it's way onto a good team.
 
I'm not seeing Chandelure any higher than D-tier. It has a ridiculously non proportionate enemy to target ratio, including Rain itself. The only thing it can do right now is function as a poor check to Genesect. If we do include it on the list, it should only serve as an example of something that's still receiving usage but should not be, like Metagross.

I'll also agree that Haxorus is C-tier. It has very small advantages over the other Dragons, but that does not make it worth using.
Chandelure does have a niche, and it is viable unlike Metagross. This team uses Chandelure as a fantastic partner to Terrakion, as well as a great offensive spin blocker. Teams that use Terrakion or another priority-weak Pokemon might not want to use Gengar as a spinblocker, and Chandelure is the only other option for an offensive team.
 

Gary

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I'm sorry, but no.
The only difference between Kyurem-W and Kyurem-B is the movepool and we all saw how devastating the former is. Typing and speed are definitely not the problem here.
Its typing isn't even that bad - lack of ice weakness is amazing for a dragon and it can't be stressed enough.
Kyurem-B has enough bulk to live through some of the most powerful attacks in the tier and should make use of it instead of wasting EVs in speed. You're not supposed to play it like the other fast and frail dragons.
Kyurem-B is the ultimate wallbreaker in OU and thus it deserves its A rank, in fact I'd even argue for S because it does its job that well.

This set in particular should tell you just how insanely strong Kyurem-B is:

Kyurem-Black @ Chople Berry
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant/Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Focus Blast / HP Fire
- Ice Beam

Terrakion fails to OHKO after rocks with Choice Band Close Combat, while Kyurem-B OHKO's in return with Outrage after SR damage.
Needless to say, Breloom and Keldeo fall too.
Yes, Kyurem-B doesn't even need LO to do that.
Even without a resist berry, Scizor's Bullet Punch has a very high chance not to OHKO after rocks, while Kyurem-B can OHKO with HP Fire in return if it's not raining.
It also allows Kyurem to survive assorted Focus Blasts from the likes of Thundurus-T and Gengar, who are swiftly OHKO'd in return.
As you can see, Kyurem-B has enough power and bulk to get past its premier checks.
If played correctly this set is guaranteed to net you 2 kills per match, no questions asked.

It's also far more versatile than it seems - if Chople Berry isn't your cup of tea you can run SubRoost, Choice Band, LO special attacker (its second best set, IMO) and even Dual Screens work on it because nobody in their right mind would even think to Taunt it.
Such versatility and effectiveness can't be ignored.
The set you posted is pretty decent, but all your other points are pretty invalid. First off move pool is not the only thing separating the two Kyurems, it's what you can do with them that's also separating the two. Kyurem-B's main niche in OU is it's wall breaking capabilities. STAB Outrage kills things for days, and Rain teams aren't going to like to take Fusion Bolts either. He's decent going mixed on a Hail team, however he is killed off quite easily with priority and choice scarfers. The biggest thing however, is Kyurem-W's extreme fire power under the sun. Nothing can take a Choice Specs Fusion Flare from a Kyurem-W well at all other then the pink blobs. My point is, with sun being so viable in this meta game Kyurem-W would have a much better niche then Kyurem-B ever would in OU, so no, move pool is not the only issue.

Also, Kyurem-B's typing is in fact it's main issue. It's weak to Stealth Rocks, and is hurt by every hazard in the game. Having a Stealth Rock weakness is huge in OU, and can really keep Kyurem-B from switching in and out. He may be doing this quite often due to the sheer amount of Pokemon that out speed him with that EV spread, and with a Chople Berry he is still easily revenge killed by pretty much any Dragon. Besides, Terrakion doesn't need to use CC on a Kyurem-B when he also has the choice of using Stone Edge. I mean sure you may surprise a Breloom or two by surviving a Mach Punch or a Close Combat from a Scizor, but being so slow with little speed investment makes him an easy target for being revenge killed.

Such versatility and effectiveness can't be ignored.
You honestly can't call this thing very versatile. Yes he can run those sets, but their effectiveness is over shadowed by better users out there. Salamence makes a much better Choice Scarfer because it's speed tier is much better, and with Moxie it can clean up just as well as Kyurem-B can. Sub Roost set is decent, however once again it's limited to two attacking moves. LO special attacker is over shadowed by Latios, his speed is just so much better. Choice Band is great, however once again easily revenge killed with a Super Effective move. My favorite set is the mixed set, because he is able to switch back and forth between his moves, while taking advantage of his better special move pool and his very nice STAB Outrage.

All in all, Kyurem-B is a great Pokemon, however he has some decent flaws that keep him from going any higher than A-tier, and he should NOT be moved to S-Tier.

Even without a resist berry, Scizor's Bullet Punch has a very high chance not to OHKO after rocks
Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch against 252 HP Kyurem-B, 71.37%-84.58% 68.75% OHKO after Stealth Rocks

Wouldn't call that a VERY high chance, and besides most Kyurem-B wouldn't carry HP Fire over Focus Blast.
 
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update
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Haxorus down from B-tier ==> C-tier

the deed is done. and now for something completely different!

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possible changes
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Kyurem-B down from A-tier --> B-tier
Mew added to C-tier(?)
Victini added to C-tier(?)
Sharpedo added to B-tier(?)
Ditto added to B-tier
Aerodactyl added to D-tier(?)
Amoongus added to C-tier(?)
Slowbro added to C-tier(?)
Cobalion added to C-tier(?)
Virizion added to C-tier(?)
 
I agree with all placements proposed with the exception of Virizion (it just doesnt do anything right), and possibly Victini. Victini screams B rank to me, having fantastic coverage, good overall stats and many different niches it can fit. It can easily get stuck in by Rain, or certain faster threats, but it can certainly pull of Scarf, Band, Mixed and Trick Room sets, and in the sun it is a monster. In this meta, its by no means as good as some other B ranked Pokemon, but its certainly not at the end of the list either.
 
I'd put Sharpedo in C tier. It definitely seems like it
can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.
It's got the crippling flaws of being incredibly fragile, incredibly vulnerable to priority, and being walled by too many things. It's definitely inferior to the other physical sweepers in B-rank, stuff like Gyarados and Lucario.
 

PDC

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Kyurem-B down from A-tier --> B-tier
Mew added to C-tier(?)
Victini added to C-tier(?)
Sharpedo added to B-tier(?)
Ditto added to B-tier
Aerodactyl added to D-tier(?)
Amoongus added to C-tier(?)
Slowbro added to C-tier(?)
Cobalion added to C-tier(?)
Virizion added to C-tier(?)
Mew belongs in the C tier, it is a fine placement for it and fits the description perfectly. Mew is not a great Pokemon and is typically outclassed in it's roles but it does have some smaller niches which give it some advantages. Victini also belongs there as it really isn't that good of a Pokemon and doesn't have that many solid roles it can abuse. Not a bad Pokemon but it really has only one select move it can abuse, and fire typing isn't too good, neither is psychic. C tier definitely. It has some very good choices to use but it just isn't strong enough to make great use of them. It is very strong in sun, but even then it can be stopped very easily. It has some good uses but it just isn't good enough to really be ranked any higher than what it is.

Sharpedo is really a cool Pokemon who can destroy offensive teams after they are weakened. However Sharpedo has a couple of flaws. For one it has incredible fragility and it will die to practically any move. Even if it is resisted it will almost always hit it for more than 50%. Priority also puts a giant hindrance on Sharpedo's back. Aside from Ice Shard ( still does like 30% ) it is going to die from any priority possible. It doesn't matter how healthy you are going to be, you will die. Especially considering how vulnerable Sharpedo is to hazards. It virtually needs Protect to actually be effective as it honestly cannot set up on anything else. Giving up a coverage move is pretty terrible if you ask me, it is just too frail too set up on anything. Sharpedo also needs a lot of support to work well. It is not strange enough to really break through healthy pokes without a lot of hazard support. I really don't think Sharpedo is B Rank. Not a bad Pokemon but I just don't think it is on par to Pokemon like Hydreigon, Zapdos and Gengar for Pokemon in B Rank. C Rank, at least for me. Ditto, while not one of my personal favorites I suppose can be included as it is a very valuable revenge killer and can turn tables for many teams. It has downsides as it has only a limited 5 PP for moves, but it will typically manage to succeed in it's goal. It can be a liability and limit you sometimes but I think it does have some advantages and niches that give it some viability in OU.

Aerodactyl is something that has a small niche in the OU metagame, but it doesn't warrant to much viability in the long run. Aerodactyl has two main sets it can actually abuse to a high extent. For example, Aerodactyl can really only successfully run Life Orb and Lead sets. It's lead has typically been outclassed by Terrakion who possess much stringer attacking stats and moves. Close Combat hits what Earthquake can for the most part, and on top of that it is actually strong enough thanks to Terrakions superior attack, Close Combats BP and STAB. Aerodactyl has 1 advantage over Terrakion, a faster Taunt. It is almost never helpful in the long run, only against other Lead Terrakions. The power loss is noticeable, and the fact that Aerodactyl virtually has no use outside if the lead position in the long run for the game is also a let down. Terrakion can make great use of it's strong dual STABs even after the job of setting up Stealth Rock / Taunting is done. Thanks to Terrakion's great power he makes great use of being not just a very reliable Stealth Rocker, but also being a solid anti lead in the process. Aerodactyl has 1 small advantage of Terrakion in this spot, and even then it isn't very credible. But what I think makes Aerodactyl a good Pokemon is not his lead set, it is his sweeper Life Orb set. Aerodactyl's speed comes into light here as not just "another feature" but a gift. Aerodactyl outspeeds +1 Dragonite, the Lati Twins, Tornadus - T, Starmie and Gengar. Aerodactyl can make use of reliable Recovery in Roost, while also being able to destroy Physical walls like Skarmory and Ferrothorn with a Life Orb boosted Fire Blast. It can also act as an excellent stall breaker with Taunt, which is pretty cool. Aerodactyl has a giant advantage over Terrakion here as it will typically be living longer than turn 5 this way, while being a cool sweeper. Aerodactyl should be where you said, D Rank as it doesn't have amazing qualities, but it does have a small niche. I would almost consider C Rank, as it is almost in between the two, but D Rank for now seems like the right choice for this guy.

Amoonguss is something that was hyped to be a savior in early BW2 because we thought it could destroy rain and Keldeo and every other water type in the game. Amoonguss didn't turn out to be that great and honestly was ignored for not being the god it was hyped to be. But Amoonguss is not bad in OU at all. In fact it can fulfill roles on teams that no other Pokemon can. For one it can actually manage to defeat Rotom-W and Keldeo very well, not caring about the many bulky waters there are in OU. It doesn't do bad against fighting types either as it can actually manage to handle Unboosted Close Combat and Stone Edges from Terrakion. You can run Physicall Defensive or Specially Defensive spreads to adjust to what you want to cover. Amoonguss is not the perfect Pokemon but it does have some pretty decent niches in which it can succeed in. Slowbro practically has the same boat with Amoonguss. It has so good niches in beating a solid counter against Terrakion and most physical dragons, although it doesn't have to many other advantages over that. The low Special Defense leaves it open to a lot of pokes and being Pursuit, U-Turn and Volt Switch weak doesn't help it much either. Not a bad Pokemon but it has a lot of disadvantages that keep it from being a great Pokemon. If it had a little better Special Defense it could definitely fit into B Rank, but sadly it doesn't and falls down to a plethora of Pokemon in this metagame. Keep it C Rank where it belongs.

At last we have the two fighting type monsters who really are underrated. Virizion is not a bad Pokemon, people just think of it as one as it can't act as the "amazing bulky water counter" people think it is. It is not very strong even after a boost, and it's vulnerability to dragons can be capitalized on very easily in this metagame. Although it can fight it through Hidden Power Ice or Stone Edge, it can't really compete to well with that hanging over it's head. It also has a high vulnerability to priority. Being able to be exploited very easily with it's low defense. It can't really be used to full effect as with the prevelance of Scald it will often be burned and crippled throughout the rest of the game, making it not the best choice for this role. Virizion deserves more recognition though as it can be useful for being a solid sweeper with hazard support. It has it's uses and is not a bad Pokemon. I actually made a HO team with it one time and it did quite well in it's designated spot. It destroys some variants if stall and also offense as it has some pretty solid speed and decent offensive stats after either a Calm Mind or Swords Dance boost. C Rank fits this guy pretty well. Cobalion is something I cannot weigh in in too heavily as I have only used it in limited cases. What it can do is use it's great defensive stat to tank Outrages and Draco Meteors from dragons. It has a good HP stat and not too shabby SDef stat, giving it a solid way to tank these moves. Cobalion really isn't going to be earning any awards for it's offensive power, but it has uses in defensive ways. It has Taunt, Volt Switch, Stealth Rock and uses such as a defensive dragon tank. It should be used more as it is not just some sitting duck either. Close Combat is a pretty strong STAB, invested or not. Cobalion should be used mainly for it's utility in taking Dragon attacks while setting up momentum with Volt Switch, and with it's high speed it can typically gain the advantage of getting out of the bad situation first. It has some advantages over Terrakion this way thanks to it's good supportive movepool. Having access to stuff like Thunder Wave. Cobalion is a fine Pokemon and is deserving of C Rank. And with the introduction of Kyurem - B it has another purpose to be used over other defensive steel types.
 
Zapdos +

New Discussion


1. Thunder
2. Lightningrod
3. Choice Scarf + Boost = Sweep

Zapdos easily sweeps teams and should be promoted once DW grant its gift. What do you say? Anyone else?
 

PDC

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Electric STAB is not the best STAB in the world. It gets absorbed by a majority of Pokemon. Zapdos may have good SAtk, but it really is much better off running a Specially Defensive set. Offensive sounds cool, but remember that Electric moves are not very common in the metagame outside of Thunder Wave. Volt Switch can be abused, but most Rotom-W can abuse Hydro Pump or Will-Wisp which will do huge damage to this guy. A rain boosted Hydro Pump will destroy an Offensive Zapdos. I think Zapdos wil stay in the same rank. Lightening Rod is a great ability, but it's probably not enough to move Zapdos up itself to A Rank. It should stay where it belongs.
 

Sam

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Thunder Wave is really, really common. And there are quite enough Tbolts and Thunders thrown around that saying they aren't 'very common' is pretty ludicrous. Zapdos's base spA is the same as Thundurus-I. At +1 it will hit very hard and has decent coverage (although most will probably be used in rain, so to be fair it's coverage will be pretty lackluster). Base 100 speed isn't great, but it's not too shabby either. It does have agility, though.

With all of that being said, let's wait until the thing actually comes out to see how it performs. If it justifies a higher ranking it will get one. Speculation really has no purpose at this point.
 
Kyurem-B down from A-tier --> B-tier
I agree with this. Though we've all come to the consensus that Kyurem-B is absurdly powerful, all of the factors going against it (e.g. vulnerability to hazards, weakness to priority, average speed tier etc) keep it from really dominating a match. I've given it a shot and rarely did I actually need its brute strength - it was much more beneficial to have speed when it came to overwhelming the opposition.

Mew added to C-tier(?)
Approved - Mew definitely still has a niche in this metagame, but a rather limited one despite its huge movepool. The key to making it work is to capitalise on what it can do that something else can't do better - e.g. Lead Mew using Normal Gem Explosion to distinguish itself from Deoxys-D. I think Azelf should also be added to C-tier, given it has a similar niche as a lead, except it trades bulk for more power and speed.

Victini added to C-tier(?)
This one I disagree with, though I may be slightly biased due to my personal success with Victini. I think its CB set is amazing; double STAB V-create is the "golden arrow" of the OU tier. Even outside of sun, Victini is still a monster and has an impressive movepool in addition. I think its downfalls keep it firmly in B-tier, though anything lower would be a little harsh, given its potential.

Sharpedo added to B-tier(?)
Agreed, Sharpedo is quite the underrated threat this generation. It does have problems with bulky Steels and the ubiquity of Mach Punch, but it can quite easily clean up in the late-game.

Ditto added to B-tier
Not really sure about this. I find Ditto is just so inconsistent that it's hard to determine its true viability. Sometimes it can be game-changing, otherwise it is pure dead weight, depending on the opponent's team. I think C-tier would be more appropriate, given that aspect into account, though I wouldn't lose sleep over it if you decided to go ahead with this.

Aerodactyl added to D-tier(?)
Good move, I have seen Aerodactyl been used on a few successful BW2 teams in the past, but in general it just isn't particularly effective anymore, especially with team preview taken into consideration (though I imagine if Deoxys-D were to be banned, it might have a niche on HO teams again). Oh, if only it learned Head Smash and/or Brave Bird...

Amoongus added to C-tier(?)
Incredibly overhyped at the start of BW2, yet still has a role to play with a good defensive typing, Regenerator and access to Spore. C-tier seems like the best place for it.

Slowbro added to C-tier(?)
Pretty much only ever used in tandem with Amoongus - on its own, it is a sturdy physical wall but brings little to the table defensive outside of simply tanking hits, and faces strong competition from other bulky Waters, especially Jellicent. It does at least have a decent base 100 SAtk going for it though, meaning it isn't too much of a slouch offensively, and access to Flamethrower/Fire Blast gives it a way past Ferrothorn. I'd say it should be in C-tier, though it does nearly meet the criteria for B-tier.

Cobalion added to C-tier(?)
I can't really comment on this - I've never used Cobalion on any of my teams, nor have I fought them very often. I've heard it makes for a good offensive pivot with Volt Switch, but given that it hasn't taken the OU metagame by storm, C-tier is probably the most appropriate for it. I'm really not sure though.

Virizion added to C-tier(?)
Eh, I think Virizion has a little too much competition from Breloom in this metagame. It does have bulk going for it, but it is pretty lacking offensively before setting up. The pace of the metagame may just be too much for it - with Genesect and Tornadus-T waiting in the wings on almost every rain team, it struggles to fulfil its old niche of being a great check to most weather teams. It does still offer an interesting mix of offense and defense though - a good compromise in keeping your offensive momentum whilst still retaining the ability to reliably tank resisted hits. I think this quality is enough is to keep it in C-tier for now, though I must stress that Virizion is not the Pokémon it once was.
 

ginganinja

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I question whether Thundurus-T really deserves to be A tier, this thing is a far cry from its Incarnate form from BW1. 101 base Speed and Volt Absorb just isn't the same as 111 base Speed an Prankster. It has more SpA, that's it, although Incarnate could use Nasty Plot whereas Therian needs to rely on Agility to sweep in most cases, so it's inferior even in that department. This Pokemon is SR weak, frail, difficult to set up with due to the aforementioned reasons, and is easily revenge killed. Oh look, Thundurus-T used Nasty Plot, dang it, I guess I'll just... revenge kill it with pretty much anything. Oh look it used Agility, I guess I'll just... send in a generic special wall like Jirachi or Blissey. The Choice Scarf set is great on paper... except that Scarf Keldeo, Genesect, Salamence, Garchomp etc all hit harder. Perhaps if Genesect/Keldeo weren't the go to revenge killers on like every team, Scarf Thundurus-T would be a top tier Pokemon.

Thundurus, to me, just seems so much weaker than the other A tier offensive Pokemon. Dragonite's Multi Scale helps make up for basically every problem Thundurus faces. It's easier to switch in, set up, more difficult to revenge kill, you name it. Garchomp trolls Thundurus-T in terms of Speed and has better STAB coverage than Thundurus-T has coverage. Keldeo actually has a way to bypass special walls thanks to Secret Sword, whereas Thundurus needs a Nasty Plot up to do the same, and lets not lie, Nasty Plot Thundurus is just begging to get revenge killed. Lati@s have superior bulk and Speed, which makes it so much easier to get in and spam Meteors or start setting up Calm Minds. Salamence is perhaps the only Pokemon on this list that Thundurus-T can hold a candle to, as it suffers from pretty much all the same problems. Intimidate at least makes it easier to set up, and Dragon>>>>Electric STAB. Finally, Tornadus-T, who suffers from the same frailness issues as Thundurus-T, has better Speed to avoid revenge kills as well as Regenerator to mitigate Steath Rock issues.

The only saving grace IMO is it's Mixed set, which when played correctly, can dispose of annoying shit like Blissey and Gastrodon so you can let your Starmie, Tornadus-T, and whoever else spam moves to their heart's content. Even so, Thundurus is borderline A-tier at best, and feels lackluster compared to other offensive A-tier threats.

TLDR: Thundurus-T overrated, move down to B-tier.
Err what?

Mixed set is prolly one of its weaker sets, so idk what you are arguing about. I read your post, but all I see really is you whinging that it fails to kill stall and offence at the same time, which a lot of A tier pokemon struggle to do anyway. NP Thundurus-T utterly cleans right through stall, you don't need to run Mixed for it, or Grass Knot, you just run a set of Thunder / Focus Blast / HP Ice / Nasty Plot and nuke everything. Sure, you can be revenge killed (by offensive teams), but 101 base speed isn't terrible in this metagame, which lets you threaten slower shit such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, Politoed, unboosted Dragonite, and a shitload of other things. You might not find the time to Nasty Plot, but against an offensive team, you don't even need too - a LO Thunder fucking HURTS and can and will blast holes through the team. You won't clean "6-0" but your opponent often has a few pokemon that sit at below 101 base speed, which Thundurus can then exploit by forcing your opponent to either sac / have these pokemon crippled etc (to prevent Thundurus-T getting free attacks off them) or choosing a faster pokmeon to take a hit (which are less likely to take a hit from LO Thundurus-T as well).

Agility is a different kettle of fish, trading the usefulness against stall (which is rare, and BW2 introduced new pokemon which rape stall anyway) for exceptional potential vs Offensive teams (you know, the ones that you say will revenge it). With Agility, your opponent pretty much needs to LO stall you, or pick you off with Priority, neither of which are reliable, and its likely Thundurus-T has taken out a pokemon or 2 by the time you take it down.

So maybe its not running Agility or NP, heck, maybe its running Double Dance, which lets it pick what boosting move is best for it in a given situation, and then sweeping. Sure, you lose out on coverage, which in turn make you slightly, easier to counter, although depending on its 2nd attack, you can still lose. The set was actually popular recently on suspect for raping that gay Deo-D + 5 sweepers team since Thundurus-T would just punch through with NP + Agility (and be immune to Thunder Wave) but maybe you didn't run into that set so idk.

Finally:

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Thats what you are comparing. Those are the differences and IMO, Thundurus-T can sweep most of the metagame, the main flaws being that it cannot sweep both stall and offensive teams consistently, as well as being SR weak. But then again, its not the only A tier pokemon that cannot do this so ???
 

SJCrew

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Chandelure does have a niche, and it is viable unlike Metagross. This team uses Chandelure as a fantastic partner to Terrakion, as well as a great offensive spin blocker. Teams that use Terrakion or another priority-weak Pokemon might not want to use Gengar as a spinblocker, and Chandelure is the only other option for an offensive team.
Countering Scizor while blocking exactly one of five OU viable spinners is perhaps the smallest niche I can think of, making it a perfect example of a D-tier Pokemon.
 
Chandelure does have a niche, and it is viable unlike Metagross. This team uses Chandelure as a fantastic partner to Terrakion, as well as a great offensive spin blocker. Teams that use Terrakion or another priority-weak Pokemon might not want to use Gengar as a spinblocker, and Chandelure is the only other option for an offensive team.
Spinblock with Chandelure? I suppose it's doable, you switch in on spin, hit spinner such that it's in revenge kill range and bring in revenge killer. I hate it, but I guess it works.
 
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