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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Dark Fallen Angel


    May 23, 2012
    A few pages ago, you was defending Mew for S rank o.o Why are you wanting to put it on E rank now? Mew is an easy C rank, if not B rank.

    It is still a good stallbreaker (Jellicent can do a similar set, and has better typing; but it's too slow and has less physical defense; cannot outrun Tentacruel except if it max invests in Speed, but it has to sacrifice bulk for this). The only thing that poses a problem for Mew on stall teams is Heatran, and even then, you can easily solve this using Aura Sphere/Seismic Toss instead of Psychic, or partner it with a Dugtrio.

    While it appears to be outclassed by Celebi on the Nasty Plot department, Mew has a big advantage over Celebi: as it can use Psyshock, it can easily bypass the pink blobs. Celebi can only do this at +6 with Giga Drain, but Celebi risks being either paralyzed, thus stopping its sweep, or it can be Toxic stalled. Celebi can only safely setup on the pink blobs without having its sweep stopped cold if it's burned, but due to Natural Cure, it's hard to have a burned Celebi. Unless for some reason you run Heal Bell (I've already did this) you can easily break through the blobs, but you sacrifice coverage if you do this. I still think that Celebi has more advantages over Mew than Mew has over Celebi, but that doesn't mean that Mew is outclassed.

    Lastly but not least, Mew can run a Baton Pass set. Celebi can also do this, but it lacks a way to boost Speed (Mew has Rock Polish). Gorebyss can easily pass Shell Smash, but Mew can boost and doesn't have to lower defenses; it doesn't need to run White Herb for this, and thus can use Leftovers, increasing its survivability.
  2. Tobes

    Tobes *You felt yours sins crawling on your back.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Jul 16, 2010
    As someone who has used Chandelure extensively I have to agree with this (although you somewhat underestimate its spinblocking capability). Chandelure is incredibly niche, ESPECIALLY if you're not using sun. And if you are using sun, then to make Chandelure worth it you need to run quick hazards, Ninetales, offensive threats, etc., forcing a very specific kind of team. Chandelure requires an inordinate amount of support to work at its prime potential and is very limited in role and to a lesser extent scope. It's not something that can be easily included on a successful team. D is in my opinion the appropriate rank.
  3. Dragonfruit


    Aug 4, 2012
    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

    uh yeah im pretty sure victini fits in here. it's got 100/100/100 defenses and 100/100/100 offenses. thats pretty fukin awesome. vcreate is rly powerful and pretty much ohkos everything in sun (but it doesnt need to be in sun)... especially if its adamant, choice banded, or even charcoal on trick room ones. it forms a really good voltturn core with a lot of stuff like rotom-w and learns an electric move to take out water types. the crippling weakness is probably stealth rock.. but that's why it should be in C tier where you need rapid spin support. and also its one of a few offensive counters to rock polish genesect... which everyone is complaining about and its even going to get banned....

    and if ur going to say rain kills it then uh... get a reality check. u can use ur own weather like hail or sun or even sand.
  4. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 2, 2010
    I'm not really sure if Virizion belongs in C-tier or D-Tier tbh. It was OK during BW1, but I don't see it being as viable after looking in on it some, Virizion was mainly used for its typing and its ability to counter rain teams - both of its niches have been destroyed more or less.

    Breloom has gotten a lot more common thanks to Technician, and Virizion has found it very hard to compete against the shroom ever since than. Breloom is a lot frailer and slower than Virizion, which was the main reason why nobody used in in BW1, but when Technician got released the Speed issue was hardly a problem because it got Mach Punch, and while that is much weaker than a Close Combat, Breloom has more attack (therfore a stronger Grass STAB and Rock Coverage move) and outspeeds even Scarfed Pokemon. While Virizion has an advantage of bulk, Breloom gets Spore to shut down a potentially dangerous Pokemon, making it almost guaranteed to get a Swords Dance boost.

    Virizion's typing is also notable for doing well against Rain teams and Sand Teams... or at least it was. The introduction of a Bird people call Tornadus-T being on a lot of Rain teams is not good at all for Virizion - it gets an effortless OHKO on Virizion. Keldeo isn't a very generous Pokemon either, since in the rain its +1 Hydro Pump is too much for a 4/0 Virizion, 2HKOing it - Secret Sword is a similar case, 2HKOing it regardless of a boost or item. These two Pokemon make up the "new face" of offensive rain, and Virizion being unable to deal with these two very well means it no longer is a good Pokemon to counter rain teams, and Toxicroak keeping its presence in OU doesn't help either since it resists everything Virizion usually runs. Its ability to counter Sand teams is initially useful, but Breloom actually does it a little bit better at doing this than Virizion - the ability to OHKO Tyranitar, Hippowdon (with enough seeds), Terrakion (after Stealth Rock), Scizor (62.5% of the time at +2 after Stealth Rock against 248/0 variants), and Rotom-W (at +2 - this includes 252/0 varaints) with Mach Punch (or for Hippowdon, Bullet Seed) on a simple Swords Dance set is better than Virizion's ability to do something mildly similar since it hits these Pokemon before they can even attempt to move. Virizion cannot do this, and risks getting forced out and loing its boosts or even getting OHKOed by Banded Terrakion provided you end up losing the speed tie. Sun teams absolutely demolish it, which is annoying.

    Why am I not definite on my opinion? I haven't seen a single Virizion ever since it has dropped into UU, let alone ever since BW2 has been released. It has been losing a lot of usage ever since it has dropped, and it just really seems to have a small niche (Calm Minding) to barely justify its use. I don't know if this niche is a C-tier one or a D-tier one, so this is simply food for thought.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
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    Jul 3, 2009
    Why is Toxicroak in B rank? I haven't used it a lot, but since i am writing its analysis it woudn't hurt to see people's opinion. Do we all agree with its tiering? I believe B is a bit too high for the toad, especially as the only set that is good right now is the SD set, which isn't as good as many of the sets that other pokes in B rank run. Thoughts?
  6. RabidChipmunk


    Jul 18, 2012
    Really, the best thing I can say about Toxicroak is he's a very good offensive counter to Keldeo, since there isn't much Keldeo can do to the toad. Aside from that, I've found him to be exceedingly average. I haven't used him, but I've seen a surprising resurgence of him on the ladder; I'm assuming it's in response to the rise of Keldeo. No Toxicroak has ever managed to do jack shit to me, but I won't comment on it's tiering since, as I said, I've never actually used the damn thing.
  7. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    Aug 16, 2007
    Not the topic of the discussion, but I'll back Bronzong for B-Rank. It's just such a unique support niche, nothing else is really like it. Landorus I / Landorus T / Garchomp / Salamence / Latios / Mamoswine / Dragonite / Gliscor / and others. It can't stop all of these 100% of the time, but it checks so much-- nothing else is really like it. Throwing up Stealth Rock, poisoning Politoads / Gastrodons that choose to stay on it, surviving Venusaur's HP Fire and throwing up a Rain Dance that clinches the game... even if it doesn't outright wall stuff, it can really throw a wrench in your opponents offense, and swing things back in your favor. Its natural bulk and unique set or resistances (and lack of weaknesses) makes it incredibly useful in pivoting.

    Even its lack of recovery moves is abated by:
    -Immunity to Spikes / T-Spikes
    -SR Resistance
    -Sand immunity
    -Poison immunity
    -The many Pokemon who can't even scratch it, and are forced to let it get more leftovers recovery as they switch out.

    You can't expect Bronzong to be an insurmountable wall, and you can't rely on it the same way you rely on a Skarmory for instance. But there is just nothing else in the tier that can tank hits on both sides of the spectrum and from so many offensive threats. It's perfect for offensive teams that just need a bit of key support and a useful point for pivoting between resistances.

    It's true that Bronzong has a hard time doing anything to a lot of opponents (Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Double Screen Espeon/Xatu being the most annoying to it). Sure, at times it can be setup bait.

    But Team Preview + the best scarf revenge killers ever (Genosect, Landorus, Ditto, Garchomp, Terrakion) + the best Priority revenge killers ever (Scizor, Dragonite, Mamoswine), mean it is a lot harder in 5th gen to set up on Bronzong for anything meaningful than it was in 4th gen.
  8. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 22, 2008
    On the other hand, let's look at the description for B:

    It does not sweep or wall most of OU, but with Sun up, it can proceed to pick off members of the enemy team one or two at a time. It straight up counters Pokemon that Sun teams would normally have trouble taking out, including Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, and Volcarona. Dragons can't even check him properly, as V-create picks them all off in the Sun after SR damage.

    It's only real flaw is that it requires a dedicated Sun team, much like Venusaur. But with is threat level being extremely high under those conditions...B-rank sounds just about right.
  9. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex Mew is blue
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 28, 2010
    I don't see a problem with Toxicroak in B. SD Croak is pretty effective right now. It's an amazing Keldeo counter and deals well with many of the common threats on standard HO and sand teams. It sets up on Deoxys-D bar T-wave and psycho boost variants. At +2 it beats Genesect, Terrakion, Dragonite (after rocks), Breloom, Lati twins (debatable, since latios frequently carries trick if you try to sucker punch it and croak will lose to sub CM latias), and Salamence is 1hko'd after rocks. There are also several more fast, frail pokemon that get 1hko'd by +2 sucker punch. It works really well on teams with Tornadus-T and Dugtrio, who can easily take care of Ninetales.
  10. TUO


    Jun 5, 2012
    I think it is about time that we discuss the sunmons. When I mean sunmons i mean chlorophyll sweepers. Lilligant, Victreebel, Sawsbuck (Jumpluff and Tangrowth???). I believe that they may have some different rankings. I feel that Victreebel goes in the C tier.

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

    I think that final part really shows Victreebel even though it has that small niche of weather ball. Sawsbuck i feel is a D tier. It has a decent niche but I feel is not that great of a poke. Absolutely not on the level of Bliss and Cress. Lilligant is kind of a tossup between the two. Lilligant is such a very underrated poke and I have used it extensively. Lilligant does suffer crippling flaws in the form of a movepool though meaning it gets walled by Heatran + Dragons/Bug+Steels (Depends on your HP type). The rest of them are kinda iffy. Tangrowth kinda got a buff from regenerator but is still a D/E tier. Shiftry and Jumpluff have niches but dont function well (Jumpluff is rising in popularity though). Tropius is terrible, cant do anything and is 10x eclipsed by the sun sweepers that it is fail tier.

    Ouch, that hurts. Thats funny since I think Sub+3 attacks Chandelure can be so good in this meta as it gets a lot of chances to set up the sub. Maybe it is just because my fav team sucks against it (Lilligant/Victini/Mamo/Thundurus-t/Ninetales/Virizion)
  11. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

    Jan 2, 2008
    I absolutely agree. Scizor (#5 in usage), Gliscor (#9 in usage) and all the middle usage Pokemon with highly specified niches (Alakazam, Forry, Tentacruel, Volc and Mamo) definately have no place whatsoever in the metagame. And the number 1 sun sweeper (VENASAUR), is so bad its not even funny hahaha.

    On a more serious note, Toxicroak is pretty difficult to quantify in the tiers for me. He's just so hit and miss in actually doing anything, though at the same time his uniqueness in the metagame has kept him OU while three other lower end fighting types have dropped off (actually only 7 spots under Keldeo, wtf >_>) so its hard to deny that it can function.

    Any more thought with Victini? I'm still solid for B tier, as the Pokemon in C just scream mediocre in comparison (although i like Abomasnow myself).
  12. Shiny Mew

    Shiny Mew

    Nov 18, 2012
    I think Victini should be B tier. In sun it wrecks everything in it's way, Although yeah it needs Sun support and Rapid Spin to be at it's best but it's worth all the trouble as there's no stopping Victini with the right support. The Trick Room set is very underrated seriously and it's great right now with all these HO teams going around. Very difficult to stop Victini under Trick Room and Sun, not to mention how easy it is to set up Trick Room due to HP investment. Victini can run a nice number of sets effectively which makes it very unpredictable. Choice Band/Scarf, Special, Trick Room, Final Gambit, Special, Support. Victini also happens to be a good offensive check to Genesect (if it means anything lol)
  13. sebixxl


    Sep 16, 2009
    Sharpedo added to B-tier(?)
    Agreed, Sharpedo is quite the underrated threat this generation. It does have problems with bulky Steels and the ubiquity of Mach Punch, but it can quite easily clean up in the late-game.

    I´am sceconding to add sharpedo to B-tier. Combined with the right lures, or just a second sweeper to soften steals and/or take out breeloom it´s a very dangerous sweeper.
    Got nice coverage in Waterfall (should be rainboosted imo), Crunsh and Zen-Headbut (for keldeo and breloom switch ins)/Ice Fang (for dragons) or Earthquake outside of rain against steels, and its ability is doing very well in this fast metagame.
  14. TUO


    Jun 5, 2012
    I second this, it needs a decent amount of support, but can really wreck havoc. B tier maybe a little weird as it is the same tier as scizor and other great pokes.
  15. RaikouLover


    Aug 31, 2006
    I have a few issues with these tiers.

    Conkeldurr needs to go up to B rank. Bulk Up with Guts is just too good. It is not eclipsed by anything above it. Don't bullshit me saying Toxicroak as Toxi requires more support than Conk.

    Metagross - How in the Frick is Metagross so low? B rank. Metagross needs NO support to effectively run a Choice Band set in OU. Steel is ALWAYS a good type to have in OU.. Nothing switches into Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Bullet Punch Choice Band set in OU. Don't bullshit me and tell me that is not viable in OU. Then tell me what in OU actually OHKOs Metagross? Don't worry I'll wait. Someone please enlighten me on Metagross' "flaws."

    Vaporeon - I'd move Vaporeon to B rank as well. It's kind of a "slap on a rain team" with no negative consequences. It can hit hard, phaze, wall, you name it.

    Scizor - A Rank always. Swords Dance / Roost / BP / Superpower is timeless and needs absolutely no team support. It still revenges shit with Bullet Punch and with Roost and bulk it is a largely independent set that can exist on any team with no help. Hell, I would put it on an A-S borderline if there was one. Scizor isn't walled like half the shit on B rank is.. this is absolutely absurd.

    Hitmontop - I vouch for Technitop always. C Rank. Technitop is a nightmare to a large amount of Offensive Teams right now. It also doesn't give a fizz about Genesect

    Sawsbuck - C tier. Sawsbuck is the best sun revenge killer in the game. Life Orb Double Edge revenges every non-resistant Offensive pokemon in the game.

    Arcanine - D Tier - It has a small niche on sun teams because of Flash Fire, but no one has figured it out yet. Heatran is generally better, but Arcanine isn't walled by anything. Good luck switching into Flare Blitz / Wild Charge / Close Combat / Extremespeed Life Orb set. After a Flash Fire, Flare Blitz actually OHKOs things like Dragonite.
  16. Dark Fallen Angel


    May 23, 2012
    It has problems dealing with super-effective and special neutral STAB attacks; Hurricane completely destroys him, Keldeo OHKOes with Hydro Pump even outside rain, and in fact, rain-boosted Water-type attacks make Conkeldurr cry. It's not going to survive any Psychic- or Flying-type attack. Also, too many fast things resist Mach Punch to it be useful against faster threats. Speaking of Mach Punch, Conkeldurr faces a lot of competition with Breloom, which has a more powerful Mach Punch due to Technician, a secondary Grass-type STAB, and acess to Spore.

    CB Metagross face harsh competition from CB Scizor, which has U-Turn and receives STAB from that too! So, it can easily escape from Magnezone. It also has a stronger Bullet Punch due to Technician. Also, most Ground- and Fire-type attacks will OHKO Metagross with no problems. If you don't have these two, don't worry, rain-boosted Water-attacks will do the job. In fact, Keldeo's Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump always OHKOes (even outside rain).

    Its typing overlaps with Politoed, generally it's hard to run Vaporeon because it brings no new resistances at all, while compounding the Grass- and Electric-type weakness. If you use Vaporeon offensively, you have to use a defensive Politoed, while if you use Vaporeon as a supporter, you have to use a Choice Politoed.

    Fire-type attacks easily end Scizor's life. A lot of would-be easy prey can defeat Scizor if they run a Fire-type attack. For example, a Tyranitar with Fire Blast can surprise Scizor. Don't worry if you cannot run a Fire-type move due to using a Rain team, for example; as Keldeo, a newly introduced threat, can OHKO Scizor with Hydro Pump even outside rain. In fact, Scizor hates Water-type attacks, even though it's not weak to them, and hates having to deal with Water-type Pokémon because they resist Bullet Punch. It's actually hard to sweep with Scizor because so many threats resist Bullet Punch, and very few are weak to them, so you need to weaken the opponent's team before sweeping. Scizor has much more opportunity cost than it had in the past. Also, currently it faces competition with Genesect, which has MUCH better coverage, but I think that Genesect will probably be banned anyway.

    Sawsbuck is very comparable to Stoutland, as both are Normal-types that have an ability that doubles their Speed under a certain weather condition. That said, Sawsbuck shares some problems with Stoutland. It can't revenge kill effectively outside sun, and Normal is a shitty STAB - at least it has a secondary Grass-type STAB to backup that. I generally prefer more consistent revenge killers, that while don't have the same speed as Sawsbuck on sun, at least doesn't lose their Speed outside that.
  17. PDC

    PDC i took it from my lord
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Mar 18, 2010
    Conkelldurr is something we both can agree on. Conkelldurr is a lot better in BW2 than in BW1. It now has access to Ice Punch as a more reliable way to beat Gliscor and Dragons, while also gaining Iron Fist to increase versatility and make SubPunch a much stronger set. Conkelldurr can also serve as a nifty counter to Genesect as it doesn't fear much that it can throw at it. Conkelldurr is something that has a niche over other more premier fighting sweepers like Terrakion. Priority is one, and that ability to run defensively minded sets is also a pretty cool thing. It can break through Gliscor without the need for Rock Gem like Terrakion and also grants it the ability to now smash incoming Tornadus - T more reliably. B rank for this guy, he is pretty cool in this metagame and is really only overshadowed because people believe he is inferior.

    Metagross is not really terrible, as it does have some niches in the metagame like taking on Kyurem - B, being able to smash and Pursuit Latios, having a beautiful steel typing, and also being able to set up Stealth Rock. But there is something wrong with this picture. Metagross is outclassed defensively by Jirachi and Bronzong who serve as better walls than Metagross. They also both set up Stealth Rock, but they both have better bulk than Metagross and can take on the exact same threats but better. Metagross is really outclassed in a defensive roll as it's Stealth Rocker set died mostly due to a lack of a lead metagame. This leaves us to it's offenses. It has viability in that Choice Band set you mentioned but it also has notorious flaws. Metagross has to deal with Meteor Mash and Hammer Arm misses and Bullet Punch's weak power. Earthquake is not a very good move to be locked into, and neither is Ice Punch. Zen Headbutt is strong but again has subpar accuracy. All these types are commonly resisted and easy to take advantage of. Metagross didn't earn anything new and really doesn't earn anything from the weather wars either. It dislikes the power Fire and Water attacks being thrown around and can easily be taken advantage of by these teams. Metagross does ok against sand, but it doesn't do great against it either. Metagross gained nothing and it has to take a choice as to whether or not to give up hitting certain threats depending on the moves chosen, making it a very limiting hitter that can be walled. Plus Metagross wasn't happy about the Explosion nerd either.

    Everything else I agree on. Hitmontop being a little shakey on though. It has niches but is generally outclassed. D Rank here if anything.
  18. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

    Nov 9, 2012
    I really wish Metagross got fire Punch.
  19. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Persona 5
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    Aug 18, 2009

    Mew added to C-tier
    Victini added to C-tier
    Sharpedo added to C-tier
    Ditto added to B-tier
    Aerodactyl added to D-tier
    Amoongus added to C-tier
    Slowbro added to C-tier
    Cobalion added to C-tier
    Virizion added to C-tier
    Chandelure added to D-tier

    The first round of potential changes(+ Chandelure) have been implemented!

    • I decided against dropping Kyurem-B from A-tier as there wasn't enough discussion to warrant the drop. It's a controversial Pokemon so I want to see more discussion on it!
    • I was undecided on Victini, but I decided on placing it in C-tier for now. It's definitely a bordeline C-tier Pokemon, it's effectiveness in Sun can't be emphasised enough.
    • There was barely any discussion on Ditto so I went ahead and dropped it into B-tier. If you've got any issues with that speak up!

    Possible Changes

    Metagross up from D-tier ==> C-tier
    Conkeldurr up from C-tier ==> B-tier

    It looks like our candidates for a tier change are currently being discussed right now. I've been thinking of moving Metagross up for a while actually. It's typing lets it check Dragon-types (always a plus) and it has the distinction of being one of the better Latios / Kyurem-B checks in the game, D-tier seems a bit too harsh for it. I'm going to be very strict on moving Conkeldurr to B-tier however.

    Despite getting some really good moves (that would have definitely helped it in BW1) it got nerfed hard in BW2. In BW1, it was actually somewhat very difficult to OHKO Conkeldurr, but BW2 introduced a significant amount of Pokemon that could straight up OHKO it, and it has trouble setting up outside of defensive walls. Not to mention things like Lati@s gaining way more popularity, and the decline of defensive teams in general hurt Conkeldurr's viability. BU You don't have time to set up bulk up (you'll be hard pressed to set up against HO teams too). I'd argue that Machamp is better than Conkeldurr in BW2 since Dynamic Punch will always introduce more luck into a match, which can come in handy (you have a 50% chance of straight up losing your machamp check, whereas most Conkeldurr checks can switch in for free).
  20. IstheCakeReallyaLie


    Apr 14, 2012
    I'm going to make my arguement for Chandelure to move up to at least C Rank.

    Its revenge-killing capacities are rather amazing: it has 145 base Sp. Atk, with fairly good coverage moves (and HP Fight), and has a high amount of sweep potential, considering even resisted attacks can hurt with sun up. It NEEDS sun up, though. It wants as much power as possible. In the same vein, it needs Rapid Spin support to eliminate Incredulous Igneous, but sun teams should have one anyways.

    There's also the fact that it's in the same tier as Metafail. That's just a disgrace. Can we have a tier for Pokemon with absolutely no niche at all?
  21. Tressed

    Tressed seeya
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Jan 26, 2012
    Nah, Chandelure isn't worth using with that Speed. You might as well use ScarfTran for all its worth, since it isn't SR weak, and isn't losing to much as far as speed is concerned. (Is there anything notable between +1 base 77 and 80 worth making sure you can outspeed?) Coverage isn't a problem, and power isn't a problem at 130 Sp Attack in sun. The main thing Chandelure will outclass anything at is a user of Shadow Tag, which isn't released just yet, although it will most likely be broken as hell when that comes out.
  22. Iluvkyogre


    Mar 31, 2012
    I think that terrakion should fall to A rank due to multiple powerful priorities that threaten it. Even though it has the ability to rip apart teams single handedly, it could be stopped easily and slightly frail on the physical spectrum and on on both out of sand.
  23. Dark Fallen Angel


    May 23, 2012
    I am not sure if Terrakion should really fall to A-Tier. What you said is true, but Terrakion is capable of tearing through unprepared teams. Its Choice Band is so powerful that can 2HKO physically defensive Skarmory and specially defensive Hippowdon (and can 2HKO physically defensive ones with some prior damage). The very few safe switch-ins are Gliscor and Hippowdon, and it's so easy to pack a Water-type to get rid of them :) and even so, other sets like Swords Dance and SubSalac can break through them, and it can even use Choice Scarf to become a powerful revenge killer. Seriously, the only true counters to this thing are Pokémon found on lower tiers, most of them that aren't worth using on OU except if your team is awfully weak to Terrakion. Sometimes the only way to deal with this thing is with offensive pressure; do not let Terrakion setup, or it can destroy your team. Also, although associated with Sandstorm, Terrakion can be sucessfully used on other weathers, I'm currently using one on a sun team.

    Generally the only reason not to use Terrakion is if you already have so many things sharing weakness to him that it's better to not use him to not compound weakness.
  24. Tressed

    Tressed seeya
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Jan 26, 2012
    This is really it. People talk about Genesect being versatile, but Terrakion never sees any talk about this. SR is viable, Double Dance is viable, Sub SD/ Sub Salac are viable, Band is viable, Scarf is viable, hell, if you wanted to use an all out attacker, that could work (dunno why you would, looking at these other options). Counters can be broken with the correct move or item, as Terrakion isn't exactly limited on useful options. Quicker checks can get bashed by any kind of Speed boosting Terrak, so they aren't safe either.

    Azelf is good, but it does face competion from Alakazam as far as a special sweeper goes. Alakazam is faster and completely immune to passive damage, which is a huge deal. Azelf does have the niche of being able to run a physical set, which it can threaten with, while Alakazam only has one job it gets used for.
  25. morningsun


    Jul 18, 2012
    I'd like to make an arguement for Azelf. I think that it should be C-tier at least because it is very capable of ripping apart entire teams. Its counters are the same as Terrakion for the most part in that it is weak to priority and CS pokes, but very capable of running CS itself. This link is to a battle I recently had in which Azelf swept:

    EDIT: If I'm not mistaken, the above link leads to a blank page (my bad). I'll try to recall, therefore, as best as possible, the events of the battle:
    Show Hide
    O= opponent;MS=me
    O:GO Politoed (it is now raining)
    MS:GO Donphan
    Turn 1:
    Politoed used Scald
    Donphan used Stealth Rock
    (from here onwards, it should be assumed that SR damage has been taken by all of O's Pokemon who come in)
    Politoed used Scald; Donphan faints

    MS sent out Breloom
    Politoed switches out; Vaporeon comes in
    Breloom used Spore
    Vaporeon's Hydration wakes it up

    Breloom used Bullet Seed (LO damage); Vaporeon faints

    O sends in Thunderus-T
    Breloom uses Mach Punch (LO damage)
    Thunderus-T used Hidden Power (presumably Ice); Breloom faints

    MS sends in Azelf
    Azelf used HP ice (LO damage); Thunderus-T faints

    O sends in Ferrothorn
    Azelf used Nasty Plot
    Ferro used Toxic
    (from here onward it should be assumed that Azelf is taking both Toxic and LO damage every turn)
    Azelf used Fire Blast; Ferro faints

    O sends in Jirachi
    Azelf used Fire Blast; Jirachi faints

    O forfeits

    It's final move was Psyshock. Psyshock would've OHKO'd Politoed and HP ice, his/her final Pokemon, the Garchomp, hence the forfeit.

    I'd beg to differ. Not to say that Terrakion doesn't belong in S-tier, because it does, but this statement is completely and utterly false. Scizor (2nd most used on PO) and Breloom (11th most used) are both OU Pokemon that pose a huge threat to Terrakion.

    Show Hide
    252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0HP/0Def Terrakion (Neutral): 109% - 128% (354 - 416 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    252Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0HP/0Def Terrakion (Neutral): 94% - 111% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 68% chance to OHKO.

    Also, I've swept a vast number of teams with Chandelure outside of sun. If and when I get another sweep with it, I will post on here. It deserves more than D-rank. It isn't worthless/completley outclassed. The coverage it gets with Fire, Ghost, Grass, and Fighting is such that it can hit 473 Pokemon Super-effectively (discerning different forms of Pokemon). The other 196 are hit neutrally. That is perfect coverage. Not to mention its sky-high SpA, rivaled only by Ubers.
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