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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Mailman

    Mailman

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    I support Metagross for C tier. Its understandable that it isn't what it was last generation, but it's still good. One of the main problems it has is four moveslot syndrome, but everyone is insisting on running stealth rock, here's a tip don't. With the following moves: Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm, Metagross is exceptional at what it does. Not only does it maintain an excellent offensive presence but it checks or counters the following:
    Dragonite
    Reuniclus
    Latias
    Latios
    Gengar
    Kyurem
    Kyurem-B
    Alakazam
    Terrakion
    Tornadus
    Tornadus-T
    Gyrados
    Mamoswine
    Blissey
    Chancey
    Aerodactyl
    Abomasnow

    All it needs is some investment in SpD and its good, this kind of checking is unheard of for most Pokemon.
  2. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    The statement is true. Do you know what are counters? Counters are things that can easily switch on whatever that Pokémon can use and can threaten it. While it's true that Scizor and Breloom can easily OHKO Terrakion with Bullet/Mach Punch (respectively), neither come close to be counters! They can't switch on Close Combat; they will be OHKOed if they do this. Scizor will also take A LOT of damage from Stone Edge (I didn't made the calculations to know if it would be OHKOed), and due to its frailty, even with a resistance to Rock, so does Breloom. They can't switch-in safely on Terrakion because of this. The truth is that they are excellent checks to Terrakion, if not the best checks. But they don't even come close to be counters.

    In fact, I said that Terrakion has no true counters on OU because there isn't a single Pokémon that can switch on Terrakion without taking a lot of damage. Both physically defensive Hippowdon and Gliscor still take a lot of damage from Close Combat and Stone Edge, and with a bit of prior damage, they can be 2HKOed if they switched-in. Not that it's safe to try to 2HKO them, as they can OHKO back with Earthquake, as long as they just didn't have switched-in. Slowbro is another shaky "counter" that Terrakion still hits like a truck with the right move, and it can 2HKO with a bit of prior damage. The only true counters to Terrakion, as far as I can remember now, are Golurk, Nidoqueen and Claydol. All of them pretty laughable Pokémon on OU, no?
  3. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Golurk I wouldn't call laughable, he has a small niche as a pokemon that self spinblocks his own stealth rocks and can OHKO forretress and OHKO starmie on the switch. Sure it's pretty small but it's there and he's usable.
  4. morningsun

    morningsun

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    I feel like the only sets you are taking into consideration here are the choiced ones. All of its other sets, or at least the common ones like to set up a Swords Dance, Rock Polish, or Sub. Whilst the latter would allow Terrakion to get an attack in, the former two would not. A Sub would also mean that the attack was unboosted. I'll concede to the fact that Breloom, due to its frality may have trouble coming in on Terrakion. However, a Choice Banded Terrakion only has a 1% chance to OHKO Scizor:
    252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Scizor (Neutral): 84% - 100% (292 - 345 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 1% chance to OHKO.

    Although, your arguement is now valid in that Scizor could be easily revenge killed. But still, it would have KO'd Terrakion. Honestly, I feel that Terrakion is S-tier almost as much as you. I am only pointing out that like all other Pokemon, Terrakion is counterable and, that too, by OU Pokemon.
  5. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    It dies after SR, and it's not like SR isn't omnipresent. And not all pokemon are completely counterable. Hydregion doesn't have a single counter IIRC.
  6. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Not to mention, Landorus-T with defensive investment. Am I the only person who like Physically bulky restochesto Landorus-T. Its basically a better gliscor without the poison heal
  7. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Metagross is also a great check to one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the Metagame - Tornadus-T! Unlike a lot of the Steel-types in the metagame, Metagross has a sizeable Special Bulk to go along with its great Physical Bulk and only takes neutral damage against Focus Blast. Against a 252/0 Metagross, Tornadus will only occasionally 2HKO with Focus Blast (maybe 3% of the time factoring in Focus Blast's accuracy), while a combination of Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch from the same Metagross (Max Attack) will actually OHKO. Also, unlike most Steel-types, it can do a ton of damage to Dragon-types with its Ice Punch, its Meteor Mash, Pursuit, etc. help it check Latios and Kyurem-B (Tyranitar and company can check Latios but not Kyurem-B). It is walled by a lot of stuff but in return it checks a large chuck of OU, which in my opinion is worthy for C-Rank. There are also other Steel-types in the metagame, which give it some competition, but that is a quality of C-Rank anyway.

    Conkeldurr on the other hand I think should stay C-Rank. It falls under a similar situation as Metagross - lots of Fighting-types, but there are a lot of really good Fighting-types. In the perspective of raw power, it suffers from Terrakion, which is of course an S-Rank Pokemon that wields a better typing and more raw power, and even Toxicroak, which has a lot more staying power thanks to Dry Skin. From the perspective of bulk, Tornadus-T, Lati@s, etc. are causing problems, and its coverage often leaves it open to other threats if it doesn't have X coverage move. It still has a fair amount of niches thanks to Guts, Focus Punch, etc., but Bulking Up is still pretty hard. Conkeldurr is still an alright Pokemon, but it isn't good enough to move up from C-Rank.
  8. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    Regarding Tornadus-T, how exactly do you plan on landing that Meteor Mash? Tornadus-T is never going to switch into Metagross, and is never going to stay in unless metagross is weakened enough to be ko'd.
  9. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    The point is that Metagross can come in, take any attack from T2 (esp. considering most run superpower nowadays) and then either maul it with Ice Punch / Meteor Mash or Pursuit as it u-turns out to rack up damage on the thing.

    taking hits from TornT is a small niche that it shares with spdef zong and spdef rachi, but I don't see any of those actually damaging TornT either.
  10. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    True, but there's a pokemon that does it better, with the same typing and has reliable recovery in wish. Jirachi. Plus has access to thunder.
  11. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

    It is completely eclipsed by Jirachi, yeah, but it has some advantages such as it is a lot more powerful on the physical side than Jirachi, has priority moves, and is a more physcally bulky. It has its niches over Jirachi, and C-Ranked Pokemon are usually hindered by something higher up like that.
  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    I have to agree with putting Metagross in C-Rank. Metagross is still very strong; it sports 135 Attack combined with 100 Base Power STAB; plus it does have EQ and ThunderPunch. Yes, it faces VERY stiff competition from other Steels such as Scizor and Jirachi, who both tend to outclass Metagross in most aspects. However, Metagross is still mighty powerful and decent at what it does, so it's C-Rank.

    Also, I'd like to nominate Porygon2 for B-Rank. It's a Normal-type, but Eviolite gives Porygon2 some immense bulk. Trace allows it to catch Regen from Tornadus-T as well as the odd Amoonguss, or even god forbid, Mienshao (which you should never be coming in on), or even Flash Fire/Volt Absorb to wall Heatran and Jolteon for weeks. It can be a very good wall, and unlike other walls, it packs some offensive presence, preventing it from being setup fodder most of the time. Looks to me like a B-Rank Pokemon. But that's just what I say about it.

    EDIT: What makes Xatu B-Rank and Espeon C-Rank? Espeon is usually better due to more firepower and no SR weakness. It also has actual bulk too. What makes Xatu higher ranked than Espeon?
  13. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Maybe is its better support movepool and reliable recovery?
  14. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    try fitting espeon onto a team and it becomes obvious very very quickly that espeon's usefulness in this metagame is much less. espeon's bulk is worse where it counts (psychic is only useful as a physically defensive typing), and there is little to no place for a dual screen lead in this metagame (that's one of the few things espeon does better than xatu due to its speed advantage). morning sun is unreliable and necessitates sun support. moreover, the whole point of a magic bouncer is to beat hazard setters, which espeon does not do. it takes too much damage and its hp fire is too damn weak:

    0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 229-271 (68.56 - 81.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 160-190 (47.9 - 56.88%) -- 90.63% chance to 2HKO


    where as xatu does beat them since it takes comparably less and has a much more powerful heat wave:

    0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (143 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 132-156 (39.52 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 97-115 (29.04 - 34.43%) -- possible 4HKO


    the only place where espeon fits is sun, and xatu does the job better on those teams because its standard set has room for uturn, roost and heat wave (espeon with baton pass, morning sun and hp fire is doable). moreover xatu also works on teams without sun because it doesn't need to rely on morning sun to survive. there is really no comparing their niches, xatu's is wider in every regard except as a baton passer
  15. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I'd argue that because of BP that would be enough to bump Espeon to A tier. She got booted from UU because of that. She's the crux of the BP teams, as without her, any random whirlwind user will have their day. Her offensive presence is also a notable advantage over xatu along with her superior speed and the fact that she's the best DS user in the tier says a lot. Great offensive power, above average speed, baton pass+magic bounce, and the best DS in the entire Tier is sure enough a great testament to how much better espeon is. Oh, and she beats Lead terrikion, something xatu can't do.

    Btw 0 Atk ferrothorn gyro ball vs Refelct 252 Hp/4 Def espeon=47.01% max.

    ESPEON FOR A TIER
  16. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    Baton Pass is really a niche strategy and just because its mandatory on those teams doesn't really justifies a higher rank C-Tier is fine for the reasons alkinesthetase mentioned. It can't beat hazard setters because it can't switch in on them or at least can't without risking heavy damage.
    Espeon is only really useful on Baton Pass/Smash Pass teams as a Dual Screener that can prevent hazards from turn one and thats it. I am also doubtful of Xatus ranking but at least Xatu has reliable recovery and can counter Breloom. Everytime i have used Espeon i got the feeling that it is complete garbage outside of Magic Mirror.
  17. Yauboio

    Yauboio

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    I know it may sound crazy but I would recommend putting wobbuffet onto the list somewhere. It counters almost every choice user as most choice users do 30ish percent (in my experience) causing an OHKO from the respective reflecting moves and at low health if you catch an attacker trying to set up with with a destiny bond it is a definite kill if it has no status moves. Also it may be occasionally beaten by gothitelle but if you work them together they work really well with the encore and the trick. In my experience wobbuffet has brought some of the most kos out of all my team, gets rid of weather enducers and almost every single one of my team's counters (with help from gothitelle) and can really take hits well. I don't think it should be A tier and probably not B tier but should definitely be at least on the list.
  18. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Wobbuffet is actually a rather mediocre Pokemon and I can't see it going any higher than D rank. "Countering choice users" is an incredibly tiny niche (which isn't strictly speaking correct, I'd consider it more of a check) and it's complete garbage outside of that. You're essentially playing mind games every time you have Wobbuffet out against a non-Choiced Pokemon; If you go for Counter/Mirror Coat and they go for a non-attacking move (especially Substitute), you're screwed. If you go for Encore and the opponent uses a move that's super effective on Wobbuffet, well, tough luck. Not to mention that Wobbuffet is highly dependent on Wish support to stay healthy.

    I'd personally argue that Wobbuffet is so mediocre that it should be placed in E rank. It must take damage in order to deal damage, which is never a good thing (and very easily taken advantage of). Gothitelle can beat Choiced users locked into the appropriate move as well, but there's a key here: It can deal damage without having to take damage. Wobbuffet is pretty much completely shut down by anything with Taunt; Gothitelle isn't. Wobbuffet can Encore Blissey/Chansey? Gothitelle can cripple Blissey/Chansey with Trick, which pretty much cripples them permanently. Speedy Wobbuffet can Encore Skarmory? Gothitelle can kill Skarmory. Basically, every single thing that Wobbuffet does, Gothitelle does better, not to mention that the Encore nerf hurt Wobbuffet pretty badly. Both aren't so good against a well-built offensive team anyway.

    Wobbuffet for E rank.
  19. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    lol

    Yea o.k ngl that Wobb struggles a bit in this metagame, but it doesn't deserve to be E rank. For starters, Wobb has the wonderful advantage of trapping and eliminatnig revenge killers, which in turn make it easier for a select pokmeon to sweep. You underrate this quite a lot, when something like Volcarona really enjoys having that Terrakion or whatever eliminated, or if it just wants that free set up opportunity that Encore will give it. Wobb also gives set up sweepers a free turn to do whatever the fuck they want, and in this fast paced metagame, 1 turn is all you really need IMO (just look at RP Genesect, Salac Terrakion, RP Landorus for examples of devastating pokemon that require only a single turn of set up). Also js id argue that Wobb at least, shines better vs Offensive teams rather than stall teams (which have lots of utility moves which they don't mind being encored into). Basically, I have seen Wobb used very well, on a variety of team styles and quite frankly, reading your post makes me doubt you have actually played someone half decent at using Wobb.

    Wobb seems to fit this rank pretty well IMO
  20. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    nice contextomy there

    Anyway, I'll admit I haven't really seen many people using Wobb (only #83 in most recent stats), but I have used it and found it mediocre every time I did. I absolutely hated the fact that it had to take damage in order to deal damage; Also, if the opponent sees Wobbuffet in the team preview, I don't think they're going to send out their Scarf Terrakion carelessly. I certainly wouldn't. IMO, trapping and killing revenge killers is an very, very small niche, and I believe I said this at one point anyway:

    So, I'm thinking Gothitelle has some use against offensive teams (however little use that is), but loads more utility against Stall than Wobbuffet (who is pretty useless against stall). Wobbuffet, however, does have a niche in being able to support setup sweepers with Encore, but I've found that it still can't do that consistently enough (read: Counter/Mirror Coat/Encore mindgames, not gonna win these every time)
  21. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I doubt if Gothitelle and Woubbuffet should be really compared. The former does well against walls, and the latter is used against offensive threats like Choice Scarf. Wobbuffet is actually pretty good and hard to deal with, and I agree with placing it on C, if not B. If your choice user cannot at least 2HKO Wobbuffet, goodbye to it. Even CB Tyranitar must think twice about trying to defeat Wobbuffet, as although very, very tiny, Wobbuffet with a neutral nature and 200 EV on Defense has 10% chance to survive Crunch! This should prove how hard is to OHKO this thing. Fortunately, Wobbuffet is easier to deal with than last generation.
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Fine, I bring in my Volcarona for free vs a -2 Latios. Your Scarf Terrakion is the only thing that can revenge me @ +1. Basically, you are forced to bring it in to revenge, and then I have an excellent chance to go for a trap with Wobb. Sure, the above scenario is subject to whether volc predicts Terrakion staying in against it but the point is clear, its easier said than done to keep your revenge killer back, and when against (or using an) offensive teams, trapping and eliminating the opponents revenge killer, is no small a thing. It becomes even harder when you use 2 pokemon that get revenged by the 1 pokemon, and sac the first one to lure in the revenge killer, wobb traps, and then the second sweeper can set up and not worry about getting revenge killed.

    Sure, taking damage to do damage sucks, but you are not picking up Wobb for that, you are picking it up for trapping and eliminating one problem pokemon that troubles your team, so that a sweeper of yours can sweep / set up more easily. Go see Gamestar's Sun RMT (BW1 but still) for an example of how Wobb can perhapes be used successfully.
  23. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Wobbuffet is definately C-material. Potentially B if Genesect gets banned, because it really is a great pokemon for set-up sweepers. It also trolls Bulky set-up users like Jirachi, Latias, and Reuniclus, and has enough Bulk to survive things like CB TTar's Crunch. Requires a bit of prediction though, and is hit hard by Taunt, but that's what teammates are for.(almost every good user of Taunt in OU is Rotom-W weak)
  24. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    not to mention wobbuffet can give a free turn. You can encore a pokemon that is setting up. They can't switch out as you can switch into something like a Smeargle. Now the smeargle can get a free smashpass into something scary like Gene or Thundurus-T (All credit to Mapledoom's Strat)
  25. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Aerodactyl is not a D Tier Pokemon. I've had great success with it in the past, and I would be willing to contend it's B Tier at least, but for now, let's talk about moving it up to C Tier.

    Aero does have its drawbacks, and I'm not ignoring those. Its defenses aren't great, its movepool is scarce, and its typing is somewhat unfortunate considering how prevalent bulky Water-types are in this metagame. However, it does have some very redeeming factors, one of which is its base 130 Speed. This Speed level makes it the fastest Stealth Rocks user in the entire game. Azelf, Terrakion, and Garchomp all pale in comparison. Another redeeming factor is its access to Taunt, making it a valuable option for neutralizing other common leads like Deoxys-D and Terrakion. Finally, it has access to the revered EdgeQuake combo, giving it coveted Rock/Ground coverage that hits just about everything for neutral damage, the exception being Bronzong. Not to mention, if you don't want to run Earthquake, you can surprise common Rapid Spinners like Forretress with other options like Fire Blast.

    I used Aerodactyl as a lead for my hyper-offensive team in two World Cup of Pokemon games back in the summer, and I won both thanks to its speed and versatility, Fire Blast catching one of my opponents' Forretress off-guard for a OHKO that later won me the match. I continue to use Aero today, and it has never disappointed me. Petitioning for its elevation to C Tier, and we'll go from there.
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