1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    411
    I myself am using the standard Mixed Attacker set. It consists of Close Combat, Hp. Ice, Volt Switch, and Taunt, with max Speed investment, heavy Sp.Atk investment, and a Naive nature. It works wonders at shutting down walls or set up sweepers, and can easily grab momentum against the opposing team with Volt Swtich. Hp Ice murders dragons, and Close Combat does massive damage to Steel types, even without much investment.
  2. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    It's been a while since I last updated. i should consider passing this thread onto someone more active. anyway:

    =====
    update
    =====

    Metagross up from D-tier ==> C-tier

    Simple change today. Metagross gets a much needed rise because even if its outclassed by other more specialized Steel-types, it's stats + typing allow it to check some of the most powerful threats in the game (Dragon-types in general, and things like Tornadus-T). Placing it in D-tier was a mistake; It was inconceivable of me to place it so low because of my personal thoughts on it For whats it worth, I think the people advocating for Cobalion to rise have a half a point; it's a pretty good Pokemon. That said, placing it in the same tier as Gengar, Mamoswine, Landorus-T doesn't seem logical to me. This is more or less how I feel about Conkeldurr rising to B-tier; it's just not going to happen unless the metagame drastically changes. I haven't

    A couple of things to consider

    -Genesect's suspect test ends TODAY
    -If Genesect gets banned, expect this list to change radically

    That's all, have a nice day.
  3. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,573
    Well, Metagross in C-Rank is well deserved. While Jirachi and Bronzong mostly outclass it, he's still strong from my past experience with him.

    That aside, I'd like to see Chansey moved down to D-Rank. Let's face it: Chansey is garbage. On paper it seems good thanks to Eviolite granting it massive bulk, but that means nothing when its offensive presence is zero. It does not have the benefit of Leftovers recovery, meaning that sand and hail wear it down with ease. It is very slow, and also weak to Fighting. It also provides free boosts for setup sweepers, because it is powerless. A truly terrible Pokemon who's gonna end up being more trouble than it's worth most of the time. It deserves D-Rank.
  4. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Oh, how far from the truth you are... The purpose of a wall is to, as the name suggests, wall, not to be an offensive threat. Still, Chansey does have seismic toss, which does a respectable 100 damage to anything that switches in.

    The lack of leftovers recovery is why Chansey is primarily seen on Rain or Sun teams, who can keep the weather in their favor.

    It doesn't matter if it's slow. There's nothing that it would even care to outspeed. If it walls a threat, being slower isn't going to hinder it at all, and if something threatens it, it's not going to stay in anyway. If you don't have a way to deal with those threats, Chansey/Blissey don't fit on your team, anyway.
  5. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    While I don't like Chansey either, you're not giving it enough credit.

    Its bulk is higher than her fatter sister, and while having no leftovers sucks; the increase in overall bulk is worth it.

    For example:

    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 445-525 (68.25 - 80.52%)
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 299-354 (42.47 - 50.28%)

    0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 463-546 (71.01 - 83.74%)
    0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (43.89 - 52.13%)

    Chansey's bulk is so high that she can take rogue Superpowers from Hydreigon and Tornadus without risking being 2HKOed. Being able to just switch into Tornadus-T with little to no drawbacks is huge.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,209
    Slowking should be C Rank. It has three very viable sets, the defensive, the TR, and the Specs set. It fares excellent against one of the most popular playstyle, rain offense, is a very good special wall, and has a certain level of versatility.

    With the TR set it can shield many offensive teams from the threat that is Scarf Keldeo, serve as a pivot for special attacks that it resists, and finally act as an ok late game sweeper, pretty similar to Reuniclus. It can even wallbreak if it uses NP.

    The defensive set on the other hand is capable of walling even the most powerful special attackers in OU, such as Specs Keldeo in rain, LO Lat@s, Tornadus-T, and Sheer Force Landorus, can preserve momentum unlike most walls due to Regenerator, and spread status like a boss with Scald and T-Wave. Its biggest downfall is its vulnerability to Pursuit trapping, which is why it belongs in C Tier.

    Finally the NP set can fire off immediatley powerful attacks, breaking through balanced and offensive teams with its coverage and even annoying stall teams due to Trick. It can also find plenty of switch-in opportunities due to its good natural bulk, the ability to invest in HP, and Regenerator, which allow it to serve as a defensive tool too.
  7. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    342
    I think Wobbuffet should be on here somewhere.
  8. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,447
    From what I can gather, C-rank pokemon are effective but outclassed while D-Ranked pokemon are the ones that are more or less completely ineffective/ From your arguments that would still make Slowking C-Rank.

    I'd say the one thing Slowking really has over Latias is the ability to run an offensive TR set, but that's not very popular and it's something you have to base your team around, admittedly. For what it's worth, Slowking does have Fireblast and a stronger Surf, I guess.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,209
    Of 'course Latias is better in general, and this is the reason that it is in A rank. But Slowking definitely has some things that Latias doesn't, and those things are good enough to place it in C Rank imo. Slowking has a Steel and Ice resistance, a Dragon neutrality, better overall bulk (Latias has better natural special bulk, but usually runs speed so in practise Slowking is bulkier), Regenerator, Fire Blast, Trick Room and Nasty Plot. This means that Slowking can switch into special attacking dragons with ease, deal with Torn-T, counter Keldeo, Specs Politoed and some other special attackers that Latias can't. Latias can do those things too to an extend, except from switching into special Dragons, but she needs to waste a lot of time recovering and some of those pokes can easily get past her. For example Specs Politoed 2HKOes max HP Latias even after a CM. So does Tornadus-T if Latias wants to come into it. And against CM Keldeo, if you lack Roar, you can lose because Secret Sword targets Defense which means that after a few CM Keldeo will really put the hurt on you and maybe you won't be able to damage it quickly enough with your weak D-Pulses. But yeah the main perk of using Slowking over Latias as a special wall is to tank special dragon attacks, Scald, and to abuse the hell out of Regenerator.

    The OTR set is something that Latias can't do, and it doesn't need a whole team based around it, it is just a late game sweeper, pretty much like TR Reuniclus.

    Finally the Specs set has the advantages of being bulkier, having Fire Blast, STAB on Surf, and Regenerator, in addition to the Ice and Steel resistances and the Dragon neutrality, over Latias. These mean that Slowking isn't walled by Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Jirachi, even under rain, that Slowking in rain can spam a move as strong as Latias's DM (their SpA stats are practically the same as Slowking uses a +SpA nature) and that it can keep itself relatively health due to Regenerator.

    I don't really know about Stoutland. It is an ok revenge killer, and a decent cleaner, but Scarf Landorus outclasses it for the most part. Yeah Stoutland is a bit faster, but aside from that Landorus is superior as it functions outside of weather too, and has better STAB and U-turn, as well as better typing. I think C Rank is ok for him.
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,573
    I've brought up Stoutland at least ten times before, but I'll give in my past arguments again. Stoutland is definitely an awesome Pokemon. With a lot of speed in sand plus amazing coverage, he's a force to be reckoned with. Great as both a revenge killer and a sweeper. Though C-Rank seems okay because Landorus-I is often deemed superior to the dog as a sand sweeper (Better STAB, less sand dependent)

    Not sure about Sandslash. It's an okay Pokemon in sand but Terrakion, Landorus, and Stoutland are all much better sand sweepers than him. It's still an okay Pokemon though. But it's no Excadrill when that thing was here. C or D seems right.
  11. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    The argument of a quick U-turn stealing your momentum can be applied to pretty much everything, not just Chansey. Wether you like it or not, Chansey can still wall the special metagame (bar Keldeo) with her fatness.
  12. Wizarus

    Wizarus

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    253
    Well since Genesect is banned from OU, a couple of things on here change. Espeon, Haxorus, and Slowbro can potentially be B-Tier, Scizor, Hydreigon, Gyarados, and IMO Skarmory could all be potential A-Tier pokemon, and Dugtrio might very well go down to C-Tier.
  13. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I don't think it was ever Genesect's fault Haxorus is C tier. Haxorus is almost completely outclassed by Kyurem-B, stealth rock weakness be damned. Cube is stronger, has an excellent ability to go mixed, and if you invest your EV's properly, he's very bulky too. They both spam absurdly powerful Outrages and they're both easily revenge killed afterwards, but Haxorus is weaker and less versatile. I say keep Haxorus C tier.
  14. Aerodactyl

    Aerodactyl

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    12
    What about Chlorophyll like Exeggutor Sawsbuck and Victreebel? Id say D-Rank because all of the different weathers out there preventing them from performing well consistently, but under the sun they're all pretty deadly.
  15. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,490
    I agree and disagree with this. While Kyurem-B does CB arguably better, Haxorus still has plenty of roles that are more than niches. It has a better speed stat than Cube, which, while only 2 points higher, lets it revenge kill opposing Cubes. It also does scarf better, as Scarf lets Haxorus revenge base 95's consistently, which Cube can't due. Lastly, Haxorus has actual boosting moves. I would never use SD in this meta, but DD Haxorus is still a legitimate threat. Take down Levitating Steels (Although Rain+Aqua Tail can let you bet weakened ones) and faster scarers, and it can sweep fairly easily due to its not completely horrible physical bulk and only being 2x weak to Ice Shard. Kyurem-B is definitely better, as its stronger and can go mixed, but don't discount Haxorus. I'd probably say its a Low B-Tier, but I guess i won't complain with High C.

    Also, I'm tempted to advocate Dragonite up to S-Tier, but I'll hold off for now. It's been incredibly good, even with Genesect, and I feel like the SubDD set is excellent at taking advantage of rain teams.
  16. evillocke

    evillocke

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    With genesect gone, heatran should drop in usage, making duggy useless. C-tier duggy?
  17. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    I see Dugtrio dropping a bit, Scizor/Ferrothorn/Forretress rising (No more scarfGene) and a rise in Chomp/Mence/Lando. I'd almost see Lando going up to S class if not for Mamo, who I also see rising.

    Gene going Uber is a great thing. I never saw it as broken, but it made team building not fun when you're putting your Ferrothorn's SpD IVs down to 26 to give Gene an Attack boost :/
  18. Sacaen

    Sacaen

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    Even though Kyurem-B can go mixed, I'd still say Haxorus is more versatile being able to swords dance, dragon dance, and taunt, or go choiced, along with access to Superpower, and mold breaker EQ. Kyurem-B is undoubtedly strong, but I've yet to see it tear such gaping holes in teams as a properly set up haxorus can, even against teams that are properly prepared for those strong outrages.
  19. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Scizor should have always been A-Rank. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist or a Genesect ban to figure that out.

    I also started liking SD Luke lately... this ban makes it all the sweeter. Hint: Use Bullet Punch
  20. emirinho

    emirinho

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    I have a couple of changes to suggest:

    First of all, i cant understand why is scizor rank B. Scizor is #5 in usage. It has only 1 weakness and it takes care of many offensive and defensive Pokemon. Scizor can also be very hard to take down in rain. Another thing is that Scizor has many very efficient sets so one can not fully predict a scizor. Now, that Genesect is banned Scizor should definitely go to rank A. I would think that it should have been rank A even when Genesect was OU.

    Another thing that i dont like is that Kyurem is rank B. Kyurem is not used at all these days. He is weak to SR very bad defensive types and movepool. In my opinion he barely deserves C. As we see pokemon such as Haxorus and Infernape unfairly being thrown in rank C Kyurem is in rank B even though he has only 1 viable set which is easily countered by a big portion of the ou metagame.
    I think that Kyurem should be sent to rank C while Haxorus and possibly Infernape should be sent to rank B

    Another point is Slowbro and Gastrodon. Slowbro is such an amazing Defensive wall. Its usage has increased a little recently. Slowbro has the capability to completely counter any physical pokemon that doesnt pack a stab super effective move against it. Slowbro is one of the rare pokemon that can counter Terrakion completely. Slowbro has the great ability Regenerator which doesnt force the user to recover health before switching which is an incredibly useful thing. Slowbro should definitely be rank B
    Now, a great Pokemon such as Slowbro is in rank C while a Pokemon whose usage has dramatically decreased (Gastrodon) still is in rank B. Gastrodon came from NU to OU just because of Jirachi and Rotom-W. But now that these are easily countered, rarely anyone uses Gastrodon anymore. Its stats are simply not for rank B.

    To conclude:
    -Scizor rank A
    -Kyurem rank C
    -Haxorus and infernape rank B
    -Slowbro rank B
    -Gastrodon rank C
  21. morningsun

    morningsun

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    103
    I second Scizor for A tier.
  22. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,707
    I don't see why Kyurem would have only one viable set.
    I don't see why Haxxorus should be B when we know how slow it is and easily revenge killed. I don't see why he goes up when Kyurem would go down.

    Infernape in B rank is really not logical, he's badly behind anything already in the B rank. I think Gastrodon in B is "ok", and you shouldn't bring this usage argument everywhere.
    Slowbro is fine, but for B, I think you should give more reasons. And he doesn't "counter" Terrakion at all.
    Your arguments aren't really relevant most of the time

    For instance : "Slowbro has the capability to completely counter any physical pokemon that doesnt pack a stab super effective move against it". It is the case for any wall, it's seriously not a reason to up it. After all, Defensive Scizor walls any physical ... against it aswell no? Just to say that a wall who can take hits from what he's supposed to wall isn't that amazing, and while I'd be interested to hear arguments for Slowbro in B, you're not making it relevant enough.

    Ahm and, when you claim something like "Jirachi is easily countered" you better explain this a little, this is far from being "obvious". You can take it as a granted statement.
    In fact this is far from being true, and I dare you to tell any "Jirachi's counter" (ofc there are walls but who cares about walls when you can Wish, SR, Screens, U-Turn etc.).
  23. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,431
    Seconding Scizor for A. I feel like his speed is the only factor in keeping him from going A rank, which honestly I don't feel is a good enough reason. He has access to priority Bullet Punch which combined with a STAB Technician Choice Banded boost, it can be one of the most effective revenge killing moves in the game. I've had a team late game be swept alone with Bullet Punch, and combined with entry hazards Scizor is just so devastating. STAB U-Turn shuts down Reuniclus who is MUCH more of a threat with Gene gone and should most likely see a great rise in usage. It's also a move that nothing really wants to switch into due to it's insane power. It's also a very effective Pursuit trapper, and can be a great counter to the pink blobs with Superpower. All of Scizor's moves are so devastating, and combined with his decent bulk and raw power he's always something everyone keeps in mind when building a team.
  24. emirinho

    emirinho

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    295

    You are talking about relevant arguments and you say that gastrodon is ok in B.
    Anyways let me explain you why should Slowbro be in rank B in detail:
    Everyone knows that Slowbro packs incredible bulk. He can take on many physical attackers and then successfully regain health or cripple with T-wave or Toxic. You say that Slowbro doesnt counter Terrakion well it takes only 40% from CB X-Scissor. It can easily Slack-off the damage. Now lets take some other Pokemon into account. For instance gyarados. +2 Gyarados can not take out Slowbro while slowbro can simply t-wave and recover its health by Slack-off. I simply dont want to give any further arguments. Every reasonable person knows what i am talking about.

    Also, you are saying that Haxorus is slow, well there are many other slow pokemon but after +1 it could be gg. Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect
  25. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,447
    For the record, I'm not entirely sure.

    I will point out, though, Regenerator is a very nice ability that makes Slowbro and Slowking harder to kill. I personally haven't seen too many of each, though, so they could be a bit niche, although I doubt rain teams are gonna slow up anytime soon.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)