1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wizarus

    Wizarus

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    253
    I like to view Skarmory as insurance against almost every physical threat in OU. Obviously it's not going to wall everything on it's own, but usually you can switch it in and guarantee your team is not getting swept due to Whirlwind, Bulk, and Sturdy. It's more of a general pivot, and you use it to double down on the number of things you check. I also generally use SR instead of Spikes on Skarmory, since Ferrothorn is pretty much the better Spiker with it's natural resistance to Volt-Turn and Iron Barb + Power Whip to punish Rapid Spinners.
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,792
    This post has a few things wrong with it. Firstly, Breloom is pretty much only a sweeper, yes, you can have that gay Spore / Leech Seed / Protect / Drain Punch set (or whateverit is), but by and large its a sweeper. Secondly, as pointed out Breloom doesn't really "get around" its counters (outside of Spore), since its move are pretty much in stone (grass / fighting / Spore / SD or another fighting move) as many of its sets share the same base counters or checks. Its also somewhat tricky for Breloom to set up, you can run bulk, but then you lose out on priority wars, and if you run speed then boosted water attacks do a ton, which, added with Life Orb means that you are not hanging around for long. Compare this with Terrakion, which also has a fair few number of weaknesses, but under sandstorm it can take a large number of special attacks, without sandstorm it still has excellent bulk which let it set up a sub, SD, or Rock Polish boost, making it truly tough to handle. I think Breloom is a top tier pokemon, easily on of the better pokemon in A rank, but I hardly see it as a "potential" suspect at this stage of the metagame, and yea, I think it belongs in A Tier.
  3. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Hydreigon's too slow for a dragon. You'd be better off with something like LO Latias as a wallbreaker. I tried them both, and Latias was better by a mile.
  4. Hiphopanonymous

    Hiphopanonymous

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    I actually would like to agree that Hydreigon should be moved up as well. It may be slow, but it does have power, and arguably more versatility than the Lati's. Obviously not broken, but is VERY underrated in my opinion and now that Genesect is gone, Hydreigon has it's chance to shine once again. Despite it's weaknesses, it still has some neat resistances to use with it's decent bulk, combined with the wide offensive movepool that it boasts, it's more than usable.
  5. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Hydreigon has the capability to go mixed and doesn't care about Tyranitar, who scares the Lati twins shitless.. Plus Hydreigon's low-speed can actually be a point in its favor, since that means it can afford to run a Modest nature, giving its attacks a lot of extra kick.
  6. G-Von

    G-Von

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    689
    The problem is that it has to run jolly to outspeed Haxorus and base 95's UU's used in OU like Arcanine and Darmanitan.
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,948
    Haxorus rarely runs Jolly though, so you can bet on Hydreigon outspeeding it most of the time.
  8. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Haxorus usually runs Adamant for the same reason Hydreigon runs Modest (more firepower, nothing notable to outspeed). And if we're assuming for a second here that Darmanitan and (lol) Arcanine are actually threats to prepare for, don't they both also tend to run Adamant natures?
  9. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    Darmanitan usually runs choice scarf so it doesn't really matter wither way, and arcanine usually runs adamant. As for Hydeigon for A, I'm not really seeing it. I feel as a special attacker its easily outclassed by the latis, and as a wallbreaker it now has stiff competeion with Kyu-b. I think hes high B tier and should be left at that.
  10. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I wouldn't call Hydreigon outclassed by any of those Pokemon; just different. Hydreigon is slower than the Lati twins, but has a better typing and more firepower (assuming Latios is Timid, which it usually is). However, I do feel that using Hydreigon as a pure special attacker is a waste of his potential.

    As far as Cube is concerned, again, Hydreigon isn't outclassed; he's just different. What he lacks in Cube's sheer, Earth-shattering, face-melting power, he makes up for with better typing, a ground immunity, and an actual movepool with actual coverage moves. So yeah, I'd say Hydreigon is at the very least high B, but potential low-mid range A.
  11. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,667
    Pretty pointless to say "if x goes Modest or Timid" etc.
    Watch the Stats, Hydreigon hits less hard and he's far slower.
    Why would you talk about natures?

    Hydreigon has a good typing, but that's it.
    To be honest I agree with what has been said, he's not totally outclassed but mostly.
  12. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Not giving a damn about Tyranitar is probably Hydreigon's biggest selling point. But IMO, it ends there.

    As for running mixed - Superpower is pretty much a Christmas gift for Tyranitar alone (Chansey doesn't even get 2HKOed), what else can Hydreigon run? Earthquake? Who's that going to hit? Jirachi who outspeeds you? Terrakion, who also outspeeds you? I count Heatran, Lucario, and Magnezone.

    Not investing in attack also means your attacks will significantly lack power. U-turn is cool for scouting sets, but that's about it.

    Also, what's the point of having a Modest nature if you're going to get outsped and KOed anyway? I'd take the speed advantage any day.

    Hydreigon's a good wall breaker, who are usually on the slower side. Alas, this meta is way too offensive for him to shine.
  13. Siggu

    Siggu

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Messages:
    349
    Actually, with SR, a layer of Spikes, and a Mild nature, Hydreigon can 2HKO a perfectly healthy Chansey with a combination of Superpower and Draco Meteor, but it needs good damage rolls (Or more layers of hazards) to do so

    Specially Defensive Heatran is 2HKOed by Superpower most of the time, too
  14. DrNeoCortex

    DrNeoCortex

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    I think this may be kind of random, and I apologize in advance if this has been covered already, but it bothers me that Stoutland isn't even on this list. He deserves at least C or B because he's really fast under sandstorm and is just powerful enough to abuse the speed. He has useful niche in OU and definitely is something to watch for.
  15. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    The on-site analysis generally recommends running Roost to offset Life Orb recoil, but I preferred Earthquake to hit incoming steel-types without lowing Hydreigon's Attack.

    I've never been trying to argue Hydreigon as anything other than a wallbreaker (hence my emphasis on running a Modest nature), but you have a point in your last statement. There's really no point in being a wallbreaker when there are no walls to break anymore.
  16. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Lol wow, you're right, DrNeoCortex :o Stoutland should definitely join the ranks of Venusaur - double speed in Sand is almost unfair! HippoLand has been around for quite some time now, with users such as Gamestar and The Great Mighty Doom popularizing it with their respective RMTs.
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    CB Breloom, all out attacker Breloom, and Leech Seed Breloom all can defeat common checks and counters to other sets. Gengar, Xatu, Gliscor (which is a shitty check anyway), Torn-T, Lati@s, and Dnite, all common switch-ins to Breloom after Sleep Clause has been activated, can be defeated by the appropriate set, which leaves only Celebi as a true counter to Breloom.

    Scarf Breloom is almost never seen so i won't count for it. But i really fail to get how you can say that sweeping better is all that matters when out of all the sets you listed only the SD set aims to sweep. And no they don't have many checks in common. In fact this is the point of using CB in the first place, to lure common switch-ins to Breloom and destroy them. As you said the least valuable member will be put to sleep, but this is still a loss and counts as losing a Pokemon. As for Breloom being slow and frail, i agree, but it still can get plenty set-up opportunities due to all its threatening traits. It can either Spore a slower mon, force out a faster mon with Mach Punch, or take a hit from a faster mon and then use Spore.

    Breloom is not pretty much only a sweeper. You are talking about SD Breloom, which is not its only set. CB or all out attacker Breloom, SubPunch and finally Leech Seed Breloom are not sweepers, they are wallbreakers and annoyers. Just because SD Breloom is the most popular set doesn't mean i should only talk about it.

    Breloom doesn't get around its counters? Oh really? Then why can CB Breloom beat Xatu, Dragonite, Latias, and Sleep Talk Torn-T, pokes that usually counter it (some of them after Sleep Clause)? Why does the Leech Seed set easily build residual damage on would be counters, beating them in the long run, or allowing to your other Pokemon free switches? Or why the whole game turns around when you send your death fodder in Breloom, in order to bring in your revenge kiler safely after it dies, when what you were expecting to be an SD Breloom turns out to be a SubPunch set, meanin the Breloom gets a sub on the switch, kills the death fodder and then proceeds to fuck you up?

    Finally you are right that Breloom's flaw lies to his low bulk and speed, which sometimes makes it tricky to bring in, but still i believe that he finds plenty set-up opportunities. Be it against a slower poke that he can Spore and then set-up, against a faster poke that he can force out with Mach Punch, or against a faster poke that cannot OHKO it, Breloom will find the set-up opportunity it needs to get started. And once it gets started it will be very dangerous if played right. Simply the fact that against offensive teams Breloom can cripple pretty much two Pokemon guaranteed makes it really good (one with Spore and the second with Fight Gem +2 Mach Punch which almost kills even frail fighting resists that offensive teams carry). Yeah full counters exist, Xatu and Celebi mainly, but let's not forget that Breloom is half the reason that Xatu is seeing the light of OU, and the other half reason is a potential suspect, Deo-D.

    -----------------------

    People should really use Hydreigon more, it is disturbing how many here don't have a clue about it. Some say that Latios is a better wallbreaker, some say that Latios is stronger, and some others that Superpower doesn't really help Hydreigon do anything else except from beating Ttar. Hydreigon is a far better wallbreaker than Latios, because it can 2HKO the whole tier, with zero exceptions. Yeah even Chansey if you are smart and you EV it right. Hydreigon is stronger than Latios in practice because it can afford to use a Modest nature while Latios can't. If you use a Modest nature on Latios then you are doing something wrong, which means that Modest Latios is non existent in practice. Finally Superpower is super useful and allows Hydreigon to deal with Ttar, Blissey, Chansey, and Heatran.

    Actually Stoutland has been discussed before, and the general consensus was that while it is good, it is somewhat outclassed by Scarf Landorus as a revenge killer for Sand teams, which is the reason why he deserves to be in C Rank. Before anyone jumps in, i said somewhat, not completely, which means that usually Landorus will be the best choice, but Stoutland has its uses as well.
  18. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    330
    ^C rank seems good but it currently isn't on the list anywhere.
  19. Ninetale3

    Ninetale3

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    154
    I would like to suggest rotom c for c or d rank.

    Simply put rotom c is probably one of the most terrifying pokemon a rain team can fight. It's stabs alone can take out a third of rain teams if played correctly and only walled by there scizor or forretress to some extent on a scarf set. Rotom c's hidden powers also contribute to how well it does allowing it to take on dragons if they aren't at +1 atk and landorus all the better or take care of the mentioned steels easier as well as a clean kill on abomasnow if it is willing to take a hefty toll if abomasnow packs an ice shard on any but a banded set.

    However, Rotom C has some hefty negatives on it such as being dead weight against sun and is troubled a little against drag mag thanks to kyurem b. Rotom C will always lose to a thunderus T without specs since it needs the extra power behind the HP Ice.
  20. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,792
    If you are running Stone Edge then you lose Spore, or Low Sweep, or Mach Punch, which in turn means you struggle with other things. In addition, with CB its easier to predict around you since you lack good coverage. Even with Stone Edge, you still lose to Celebi (which was what I was referring to when I said counters (my fault, I should have spelled it out for you -_- )) Leech Seed doesn't beat counters and I really don't see how Leech Seed is (for example) helping you out against Xatu, and Latias / Tornadus / Celebi which all have recovery? I guess you can Leech Seed them, they force you out and get to nuke something or I guess like umm heal I guess? I don't see how you are beating them but whatever, maybe you and I are playing different levels of players or something, since iv been able to handle LS Loom easily.

    I think you misread my post. Sure, when Breloom is in safely, it has set up opportunities via Spore. However, when I said set up opportunities, what I was implying was Breloom switching in and then setting up, which is sometimes tricky. Its nowhere near impossible, I can set up with it most games, but against heavy offensive teams (ironically the teams you claim its good against) its hard to switch in, eat a hit, eat a second hit, spore, (or something). Heavy Offensive teams usually lack pokemon slower than Loom which hurts you somewhat.

    My death fodder outspeeds and breaks your sub, you are forced to kill, then I bring in my revenge killer and it doesn't get to fuck me up :)
  21. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    I apologize for the avatar, blame Genesect & TFC.

    =====
    update
    =====

    Stoutland added to B-tier
    Scizor up from B-tier A-tier

    It's about time I added Stoutland to the tier list. It's really good in BW OU2, possibly even A-tier, though I think for now placing it in B-tier is a good idea. With Genesect gone, there's a huge incentive to use Scizor again, so moving it up to A-tier was a no-brainer.

    Some food for thought: With Genesect banned should defensive Pokemon like Blissey / Chansey move up? I think that stall is pretty viable now.
  22. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    486
    Blissey/Chansey should move up to A Rank. They're both really good at keeping Special attackers at bay, except for Keldeo (who I would argue as S Rank, but I'm not certain if I should just yet). Some Special attackers still have ways of circumventing Blissey/Chansey, so they're by no means S Rank Pokemon. However, they can wall a majority of the game since few Special Attackers actually possess Psyshock and Secret Sword.
  23. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    I wouldn't say A rank, but B rank for sure. Both blobs are pretty good support pokes, but they do have their faults. The big bad special attackers in this meta have a way to hit them where it hurts; Tornadus-T and Hydreigon can Superpower while the latis can Psyshock. Unlike Blissey, Chansey can tank these attacks; but getting her in repeatedly means she will have to eventually give the opponent a free turn to heal up because entry hazard damage racks up fast when you don't have leftovers.

    They also suffer from 4MSS pretty badly, since Softboiled, Seismic Toss and either T-wave or Toxic are pretty much mandatory nowadays. If you want to use Wish, you have to use Protect too; which is a shame because both blobs get SR and the oh-so-rare and amazing Aromatherapy.
  24. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,303
    its actually pretty common to use both softboiled and wish so you can drop protect nowadays especially on chansey.

    I have also never felt that aromatherapy is that great since you barely need it because chansey/blissey already have natural cure to absorb status for the team, but i am by not a good stall player so i might have a wrong impression.
  25. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    I meant protect in place of Softboiled, not on an additional moveslot. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

    And even then, I still thing Protect is a better option. It lets you scout for rogue superpowers or similar while providing similar recovery in tandem with Wish.

    Aromatherapy is very useful, especially on any weather-based stall. If your inducer gets burned or poisoned, that's 6-12% health + entry hazards lost upon switching in, those moves are pretty common nowadays. Removing their status condition allows you to keem switching them in for twice as long.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)