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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. morningsun


    Jul 18, 2012
    I second Scizor for A tier.
  2. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Oct 17, 2012
    I don't see why Kyurem would have only one viable set.
    I don't see why Haxxorus should be B when we know how slow it is and easily revenge killed. I don't see why he goes up when Kyurem would go down.

    Infernape in B rank is really not logical, he's badly behind anything already in the B rank. I think Gastrodon in B is "ok", and you shouldn't bring this usage argument everywhere.
    Slowbro is fine, but for B, I think you should give more reasons. And he doesn't "counter" Terrakion at all.
    Your arguments aren't really relevant most of the time

    For instance : "Slowbro has the capability to completely counter any physical pokemon that doesnt pack a stab super effective move against it". It is the case for any wall, it's seriously not a reason to up it. After all, Defensive Scizor walls any physical ... against it aswell no? Just to say that a wall who can take hits from what he's supposed to wall isn't that amazing, and while I'd be interested to hear arguments for Slowbro in B, you're not making it relevant enough.

    Ahm and, when you claim something like "Jirachi is easily countered" you better explain this a little, this is far from being "obvious". You can take it as a granted statement.
    In fact this is far from being true, and I dare you to tell any "Jirachi's counter" (ofc there are walls but who cares about walls when you can Wish, SR, Screens, U-Turn etc.).
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 5, 2011
    Seconding Scizor for A. I feel like his speed is the only factor in keeping him from going A rank, which honestly I don't feel is a good enough reason. He has access to priority Bullet Punch which combined with a STAB Technician Choice Banded boost, it can be one of the most effective revenge killing moves in the game. I've had a team late game be swept alone with Bullet Punch, and combined with entry hazards Scizor is just so devastating. STAB U-Turn shuts down Reuniclus who is MUCH more of a threat with Gene gone and should most likely see a great rise in usage. It's also a move that nothing really wants to switch into due to it's insane power. It's also a very effective Pursuit trapper, and can be a great counter to the pink blobs with Superpower. All of Scizor's moves are so devastating, and combined with his decent bulk and raw power he's always something everyone keeps in mind when building a team.
  4. emirinho


    Feb 27, 2010

    You are talking about relevant arguments and you say that gastrodon is ok in B.
    Anyways let me explain you why should Slowbro be in rank B in detail:
    Everyone knows that Slowbro packs incredible bulk. He can take on many physical attackers and then successfully regain health or cripple with T-wave or Toxic. You say that Slowbro doesnt counter Terrakion well it takes only 40% from CB X-Scissor. It can easily Slack-off the damage. Now lets take some other Pokemon into account. For instance gyarados. +2 Gyarados can not take out Slowbro while slowbro can simply t-wave and recover its health by Slack-off. I simply dont want to give any further arguments. Every reasonable person knows what i am talking about.

    Also, you are saying that Haxorus is slow, well there are many other slow pokemon but after +1 it could be gg. Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect
  5. StarmanXL


    Jul 1, 2007
    For the record, I'm not entirely sure.

    I will point out, though, Regenerator is a very nice ability that makes Slowbro and Slowking harder to kill. I personally haven't seen too many of each, though, so they could be a bit niche, although I doubt rain teams are gonna slow up anytime soon.
  6. evillocke


    Oct 16, 2012
    i never said heatran was not good.
  7. Bossness


    Aug 18, 2011
    This is completely wrong. I was the one who nominated Kyurem for B tier along with Pricess Brii and .....(I forgot). Go back a few pages and find my reasonings for it. I do not feel like repeating myself. Anyways, whose fault is it that Kyurem is not used? It is actually the playerbase's mentality - "Hey, I heard Kyurem is in BL; it sucks! I will not use it and I refuse to try using it ever!" Kyurem's low usage stems from its initial mediocriy. Alot of people arent even aware of the addition of Earth Power and Roost to its movepool. I would actually say that Kyurem is better than Haxorus. Which viable set are you talking about? The subroost set? OK. I hope you can find a counter to it because I couldnt. Just dont bring up Jirachi and Blissey. The former is 2hkoed by Earth Power and the latter is PP stalled. What do you mean by bad movepool? What move does it not have that would otherwise help it beat something it cannot already? It can also use a life orb attacker set with Draco Meteor/Ice Beam/Earth Power and Focus Blast. Only Blissey and Chansey can wall this set. Kyurem also has an Ice-neutrality. Anyway, I feel like I am ranting. I will just leave these following replays:
    Watch them if you want to; I am not forcing you.

    EDIT: The replay are a bit meesed up for some odd reason. Just follow the actual links. Dont click on the descriptions; they all lead to the same match.
    NO it is not! Haxorus doesnt have Kyurem's bulk and recovery or pressure.
  8. FaceFaceFace


    May 15, 2012
    Wow I did not realise Scizor was rank B until now. Scizor is definitely A.

    CBzor is still a very good check to non-steel members on offensive teams, and the ability to trap Lati@s/ Gengar is huge, especially with Deoxys-D/Gengar everywhere.

    I've also been using SDzor as a late game sweeper, and as long as all fire/water types are weakened/ gone, Pinchy Bug Man absolutely rapes face.
  9. The Silent Storm

    The Silent Storm

    Apr 24, 2010

    Move Terrakion to A Rank.
    Ok, we know Terrakion has a great coverage, excellent speed, ability to bring down by itself some of his worst nemesis like Gliscor, but what are Terrakion flaws?
    Weakness to priority, now that Genesect is banned Scizor will once again rise and take it's older position, Breloom is also a terrible problem, and by no means something that should be left unchecked, so exactly, how those flaws are mitigated? You just have to hope Terrakion attacks Scizor or Breloom in the switch in or use Substitute, but in the long run, Scizor and Breloom are troublesome for him, so yeah, this alone makes Terrakion ''not that good'' and I mean, terrakion is good, very good but by no means S Rank.

    Also, I would like to propose Jirachi for S Rank.

    Yes, you heard that right, Jirachi.
    Think about it, Jirachi is perhaps the most unpredictable 'mon in the game, ''sure this Jirachi has Leftovers, it has to be Special Defense, well I'll just send Ferrothorn, in order to set up hazards...'' Ops, too bad it's sub cm and here's gonna make your days a hell lot worse.
    ''Uhm, so this Jirachi has no Leftovers, it's choice scarf, no doubt'' after you said that you find out that in reality it's just a MixRachi with Thunderbolt/Thunder, so that your Skarmory is easily killed.
    Now that Genesect is banned Jirachi is most definitely the scarfed that can patch up Genesect void better than anyone else, Rachi also got trick and better bulkyness (in exchange, the attack is a bit less). Let's not forget that Jirachi is also a fantastic Stealth Rock user.
    Probably Jirachi isn't a powerhouse like say... Terrakion or Salamence but Jirachi can surely perform multiple roles effectively, like say, Special Defense, a great glue for many teams, Sub Calm Mind, the worst opponent you would like to face, Wish Calm Mind, a bit less used but completely shits on all Hippowdown- less or Gastrodon- less stall teams in the long run, choice scarf which is also a great glue usable in all kind of teams and MixRachi or whatever you want to call him (superachi?) who acts as a great lurer.
    Jirachi flaws? they aren't very much, other than making someone rage at paraflinch, or Dugtrio
  10. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 13, 2009
    Just pointing out that you listed a single flaw Terrakion has. If you want to move it down from S rank, you might need more the one negative, especially as its well known that Terrakion has counters / checks (as do most pokemon in S rank) but regardless, its such a goddamn threat in this metagame its top tier despite being weak to Scizor and Breloom.

    Using your own arguement I could claim that Politoed is only A rank for example due to it being weak to Breloom, or Deoxys-D should be A rank because it is weak to Tar / Scizor etc etc. Basically, just because a pokemon is weak to x doesn't always mean that its not suspect material.

    Jirachi isn't really S rank, as while its undoubtedly a top tier pokemon, it does suffer a little from 4MSS, as well as not being massively difficult to check. Sure, its unpredictable, and it lucks the shit outta you, but you can usually make an estimate as to what what set it is running, due to having access to Team Preview and scouting during he course of that match. Personally, on the ladder newer players tend to struggle against it (or sometimes newly built teams) so perhapes I can understand why you hype Sub CM as such a threat, but IMO its not quite S Rank.
  11. DarkBlazeR


    May 20, 2009
    I think it now seems appropriate that Tornadus-T should be in S-rank. With Genesect out of the way, it has lost one of its most popular checks, plus sun teams have taken quite a big hit with the loss of one of their most useful teammates. The usage statistics of the recent Suspect ladder show Tornadus-T is one of the most dominant threats in a Genesectless OU metagame, so I really don't see any reason why it isn't S-rank already, especially when it's basically the sole reason people even bother to specifically pack at least one bulky Flying resistance on every team.
  12. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Oct 17, 2012

    Some people answered anyway, but I wanted to make something clear :

    First I don't need to tell arguments for Gastrodon. You need to convince us to move it, not the contrary. Check the thread else, there are things that have been said and I don't feel like repeating it.

    "252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) X-Scissor vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Slowbro (+Def): 44% - 52% (176 - 208 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Slowbro (+Def): 41% - 49% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

    A counter that is 2HKO on the switch with SR?
    Yes there is a big difference between your "40%" and a 44-52.
    And anyway even Stone Edge looks threatening. So no it is not a "counter" at all. A counter isn't supposed to lose a 1V1 after a switch.

    Any reasonable person can read a damage calculator. I'm not even against Slowbro in B, but well..

    Supporting Scizor in A also.
    Not thinking Tornadus-T is S worthy given that Rain is pretty needed, I don't like the idea of putting in S a weather pokemon (but under Rain, no doubt it's S).
    Supporting Jirachi in S, while ginganinja say many relevant things, when I think the versatility and the ability to go different routes should be more valuated in the ranking. And Jirachi is maybe the best pokemon right now for that.
  13. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke

    Jun 11, 2012
    lie ginga did, an S rank poke may have some flaws, but usually its pros outmatch its cons by a large margin, and thats Terrakion's case. Yo talked about ''amaing coverage'', man, it 2HKOs EVERY POKEMON IN OU WITH ROCKS UP, so saying not even ''amazing'' fits terakion's STAB. The pokes you mentioned are checks, not counters, since there's no competitive battler in his right mind that dares swtching a breloom into a terrakion, and even if in the off-chance that lives (idk... sash?), then you have a serious problem, since you can predict all you want, but what if you are wrong? because i can switch into latias expecting the mach punch, or i can stay in and cc predicting the spore, you have a 50 50 chance in your hands, thats what i wanted to say (the same goes with scizor if it lives a cc on the switch, if you bp your opponent's switch, youre giving him momentum, if you uturn, your opponent can demolish you with another cc).

    Rachi is more of a tricky subject, but the problem is that most of its sets are easily identified just with one turn u see wish: sp def, rachi doesnt get lefties: scarf, u see sub: sub cm (unless its sub para, but u know that by looking at one more move). I mentioned only those sets because i think they are the most usable. Also, rachi is too weak and slow in this metagame, and theres no stall to abuse with the sub cm, usually youre better off with defensive sets, which are hazards fodder and easy to counter.

    Now im not saying rachi isnt a good poke, it obviously is, but, as the S-rank says, im not seeing Jirachi being suspect anywhere soon.
  14. morningsun


    Jul 18, 2012
    I've argued Jarachi for S-Rank 2-3 times during the course of this thread, all before the Gene ban. With Genesect gone, there really isn't much difference though. It's a great poke and deserves S-Rank. I can give reason upon reason for this to anyone interested in arguing. It has taken out 4 Pokemon on an opposing team before going down and it only fell because Protect worked twice in a row two separate times and the Ferro had Leech Seeded it.
  15. G-Von


    Jun 19, 2011
    I cannot stand that fucking pixie Jirachi. He has to be the most annoying pokemon to deal with in OU. Paraflinch, parafusion, paraflinchusion...whatever set it is, it's nerve-racking. Golurk is possibly the best thing to use to deal with it since it can't be paralyzed due to typing from Jirachi. Even then, since its slower, it doesn't need to be paralyzed to get flinched to death or KO'd by Ice Punch. Lets now break down the definition of S-Rank and see if it fits the description. (My comments are in bold)

    S Rank:

    Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support
    Seeing how its specially defensive set walls nearly all special attackers, I would say it fits this part. Physical attackers who lack ground or fire moves can get walled for the most part with the same set.

    Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
    It can set up SR, WishPass, and/or paralyze a pokemon that is your main sweeper's counter. All of this with little to no effort at all.

    Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.
    It can run effective sets like Specially Defensive, Choice Scarf, WishPasser, and the infamous Paraflincher/Parafusion/Paraflinchusion. Of course there are other sets but these are just the most common. If you need a pokemon that can be offensive, defensive, or supportive and make people have no idea what it will do when it is first brought out, Jirachi is the one to go to.

    If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
    Hmm, common weaknesses to ground and fire attacks? Less than stellar Base 100 Attacks stats? I believe that is completely outmatched by its many positives it brings to the table since 'Rachi can survive SE attacks, support all of its teammates, and get the job done offensively anyway. Hell, its immune to T-Spikes and resistant to Stealth Rock, too.

    If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
    As far as I know, it isn't a suspect. I would be in favor of it being tested though.

    Well, there is my breakdown of whether Jirachi is worthy of S-Rank by definition or not. By my explanation, I believe it is. Feel free to agree or disagree. I just hope my words actually have an impact on the readers, and PK since he is the one who is leading this thread.
  16. nygerman


    Sep 27, 2008
    there are way too many pokemon in the A tier. The tier should be pyramid based, but everything is only moving up the tiers.
  17. Hiphopanonymous


    May 19, 2012
    I'd like to nominate Virizion for B-tier. While it CAN be easily walled, the CM set I use is actually extremely proficient in late game sweeping, if played correctly. It's bulk is quite surprising, and there have been very few moments where I have regretted having it on my team. It also makes for an unusual go-to poke against Sun teams as well, having great matchups against their Chlorophyll sweepers, whilst having Synthesis to use their own sun against them. All in all, definitely not A-tier due to it's crippling flying weakness, and competition with Breloom for a team slot, but very well worth a player's time, imo.
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Oct 3, 2010
    Not with how powerful the metagame has become. To thrive at all a Pokémon HAS to do its job damn well, whether that's offense, defense, or support, or it will fall to the wayside. Logically, there's going to be more top-tier threats in OU that are all equally viable and equally threatening in some way.

    Look at Latios, Kyurem-B, and Breloom. They are all incredibly dangerous, but they work in different ways. Latios is extremely fast but also boasts some pretty good fire power that forces you to go on the defensive. Kyurem-B is much slower but also bulkier and much more powerful, which forces an offense/defense mindgame: He can be walled, but letting him in for free is arguably worse than having nothing to wall him because he IS going to tear a hole in something. Breloom is up there with Salamence and Terrakion in terms of how completely fucked you are if he sets up, which forces you to go on the offensive so he doesn't get a chance to do so.
  19. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Apr 28, 2012
    Virizion's real claim to fame was beating Rain Stall, and with that play style being very rare in the current OU it lost one of its main niches. Combine this with the fact that Techiloom was released, which pretty much outclasses its Swords Dance set, and Virizion's use in the current OU isn't great enough for it to be B tier. Even the CM variant has been dealt a blow with rains biggest new addition in Torn-T being able to swat it away with ease, and everyone's new favorite special fighting type with CM is keldeo. Virizion is definitely at home in C considering nearly everything BW2 has brought has made it harder to use on teams.

    Speaking of other fighting types, I would like to nominate Lucario for A tier. With Genesect gone he lost one of his best check's, and without gene around to do the job, very few hard counters/checks exist to beat lucario. He still has horrible 4MSS syndrome, but until you know what that move is your pretty much left in the dark with what to use to beat him, unless you have a Scarf Magnezone (lol), a Healthy Landorus-T or some other obscure set. He can definitly sweep the vast majority of the metagame with little support being necessary, and can fit onto a wide variety of teams. As a sweeper he is very hard to stop, and he has ample set up oppurtunties with his cool set of resistances. Great set up oppurtunitites include Choice Latios after a Draco Metoer, and Scizor's bullet punch, both being common sights in OU. A very big and hard to counter / check threat in OU, and is definitely up there with the other A tier mons.

    EDIT: Agreeing with scizor for A tier because of afore mentioned reasons + the fact SD scor is so much better with gene gone
  20. TaBuu


    Sep 9, 2012
    Lucario is one of my most favorite Pokemon of all times hahaha.
    Lucario for A-Tier? Possibly. Quite Possibly.
    I've had a lotta success with Lucario. The biggest problem I feel is if one doesn't play Lucario smartly (Like sending him out turn 4), Lucario will be a deadweight. Lucario requires Rocks quite a bit. He also needs certain threats eliminated, and sadly, the list is a bit on the extensive side. However, once Lucario gets +2, it is so hard to wall that beast. Not even Skarm can take a +2 CC after Rocks. Lucario has a great movepool that is hampered by 4MSS. Can he sweep the mast majority of the metagame? Sure. Only if it's late game. Lucario is no Terrakion, but he certaintly is a huge threat of its own kind. The reason I cast my vote 70% in for Lucario, despite these flaws, is because Breloom made it to A-Tier. Lucario, I feel, is able to perform on par with Breloom. With Higher base speed, a +2 Priority move (as opposed to Mach's +1), and a better movepool Lucario has a shot in A-Tier. Also Lucario has the SEXIEST typing in the world, that makes so many other sweepers drool in envy.
  21. Wizarus


    Apr 2, 2011
    The difference is that Loom is surprisingly self-sufficient. If played correctly, it will almost always net you 2 kills factoring in Spore as a kill. Lucario needs alot of support; there is always 1 and usually 2 pokes that can completely stop a Luke sweep.
  22. Strategywin


    May 4, 2012
    Toxicroak to C. Its too frail, as fast as rotom-wash but it is never scarfed, and its offenses are outclassed by infernape.
    Infenape to B. Top 5 pokes, even without genesect, contains scizor (OHKo'd, cant OHKO with bp) ferro (ohkod without rain and heatran (ohko'd unless scarfed).
    It also gets lovely priority, allowing it to pick off weakened breloom, it can straight up kill mamo, the anti meta poke, and life orb overheat can one shot gliscor. Also, it speedd ties with pony and terrakion, so if it is scarfed, it can do some late game clean up.

    I am enjoying my sun team with specs gothitelle for politoed.
  23. Wizarus


    Apr 2, 2011
    Sleep absorber? Gliscor, Espeon, Xatu, Toxic Orb Breloom and Conkeldurr, Dragonite with a Lum Berry, and that's it(unless you count crap like Shed Shell Resttalk Heatran as a sleep absorber). Half of these pokes can't switch into Loom without dying. Natural Cure pokes aren't sleep absorbers, Breloom hits the switch-in with Low Sweep, and uses Spore again if it can't beat it.

    Plenty of teams don't run or need these pokemon to succeed. Plenty of teams don't run or need a phazer to succeed also.
  24. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

    Dec 1, 2009
    Toxicroak: SD is good but the set I've had success with is SubPunch LO. The combination of Sub/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch can always be a huge pain to deal with for offensive teams, and under rain Toxicroak can run LO for extra power and still be healing every turn. Ice Punch is also pretty good in situations where Focus Punch is walled and Sucker is inadvisable, so if you get the sub up its likely you're going to cause some trouble with this set.

    Pros: 2 great sets (SD/SubPunch), good against offensive teams, sets up on most Keldeo, pretty good vs Ttar
    Cons: Needs rain, sort of bad against the Hippo

    I think B tier is perfect for it.

    Kyurem-Black: This thing is stupidly bulky and its defensive typing is terribad physically but pretty good specially (Focus Blast and nonChoice Keldeo are the only problems). I think the key to using a more defensive set with him is Sub+Lefties (Sub is really good if Focus Miss is coming at you frequently), and either good hazard control or Roost to keep him healthy. Also this thing has Dragon Tail if it wants it which is an interesting option.

    Pros: Excellent wallbreaker, good against rain and water types in general, basically its like a Hax with the option to go bulky
    Cons: Ugly defensive typing physically, speed too slow to actually outspeed things

    I think it should stay in A tier for now, it's more versatile than it gets credit for.

    Skarmory: This guy seems pretty great, supposedly Genesect was shitting all over it when I was gone but with the rocket bug banned it feels like it might be able to go A tier to me. Its notable that if you use a specially defensive set it might be able to wall Tornadus-T in most situations (Heat Wave is a problem). I'm less confident with this than the other two though and should probably test it more.
  25. TheStriker


    Jun 11, 2012

    I would like Hydreigon to become A Rank

    That amazing movepool and coverage lets it break through evry wall. With Choice Scarf, he can be the best revnge killer out there becaus eof his fantastic coverage. Genesect is similiar to him because of his amazing coverage. Life Oeb doesn't waste his amazing coverage and allows him to kill everything like a boss.

    Amazing defenses and being completely unpredictable is a major pro. So, I want many to go with A Rank because of its scarfing and wallbreaking capibilties.
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