Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Pocket

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Chansey and Blissey's usage wasn't affected by Genesect, imo. In fact Genesect was easy to play against for stall since RP variants are hard-walled by Chansey / Blissey, while the pivot variants are easily worn out by hazards. If anything, the increased usage of Scizor would be annoying for those two.

What really affected the usage of those two special walls are probably the new BW2 addition of power-hitters, namely Sheer Force Landorus, NP Thundurus, mixed Tornadus-T, and Keldeo (not to mention the recent unbanning of Kyurem-B), all of which can power through Blissey / Chansey.
 
Sheer Force Landorus
I'd like to highlight this guy, who I used way back in DW BW1. You comfortably 2HKO 4/252 Blissey with Focus Blast and a bit of prior damage or a layer or two of hazards. That is huge for a special attacker without a defense-targeting move (a la Psyshock/strike/Secret Sword). Physically defensive Bronzong is 2HKOd, and physically defensive Skarmory, probably physical Landorus' biggest stop outside of Gravity, is straight-up OHKOd with Rocks.

What with Genesect's ban, I plan on making a new team with either Rock Polish Sheer Force or Gravity Sheer Force. Why Gravity? Because fuck you, that's why. I love Gravity, we need an item to increase its length or a Pokémon that induces permanent Gravity.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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I'd say the pink blobs are surefire B-Rank. They still hold on today as stellar special walls and have a great movepool. Reliable recovery is a really neat aspect in their favor, and they can support the team with Aromatherapy, T-Wave, and Stealth Rock. They can take onslaughts from the likes of many special attackers not named Keldeo, who itself is already amazing, no arguments. It's a shame that they have 4MSS and can't take a physical hit, but they're awesome team supporters and special walls. B-Rank.

EDIT: Off topic, but lol,, is Vaporeon even useful anymore?
 

Gary

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I'd say the pink blobs are surefire B-Rank. They still hold on today as stellar special walls and have a great movepool. Reliable recovery is a really neat aspect in their favor, and they can support the team with Aromatherapy, T-Wave, and Stealth Rock. They can take onslaughts from the likes of many special attackers not named Keldeo, who itself is already amazing, no arguments. It's a shame that they have 4MSS and can't take a physical hit, but they're awesome team supporters and special walls. B-Rank.

EDIT: Off topic, but lol,, is Vaporeon even useful anymore?
Yes he is pretty decent in OU, but it mostly depends on how you use it. Normally, Vaporeon is pretty stale. He has great HP and is a really nice Wish passer, however Blissey, Chansey, and Jirachi fulfill this role better with their better typing and such. I usually prefer Jellicent over Vaporeon on a non weather team any day, however there's one thing that makes Vaporeon an outstanding wall. Hydration. With this ability, he has the ability to heal himself to full health with Rest without sacrificing turns he would normally be asleep. His supporting move pool is what makes this even better, and he can work great on offensive and even Rain stall because of his ability to heal to full and instantly, while having access to Toxic, Protect, Acid Armor, and Roar. One other thing that Vaporeon has seemed to have a decent niche in, is Baton Pass teams. With access to Acid Armor, he can pass a +2 defense to any of the team members, making them very bulky physically.

So to answer your question, yes he has a few niches in OU, however he can't really do too much outside of rain and Baton Passing teams. I think his C-Ranking fits him just fine.
 
I'd like to highlight this guy, who I used way back in DW BW1. You comfortably 2HKO 4/252 Blissey with Focus Blast and a bit of prior damage or a layer or two of hazards. That is huge for a special attacker without a defense-targeting move (a la Psyshock/strike/Secret Sword). Physically defensive Bronzong is 2HKOd, and physically defensive Skarmory, probably physical Landorus' biggest stop outside of Gravity, is straight-up OHKOd with Rocks.

What with Genesect's ban, I plan on making a new team with either Rock Polish Sheer Force or Gravity Sheer Force. Why Gravity? Because fuck you, that's why. I love Gravity, we need an item to increase its length or a Pokémon that induces permanent Gravity.
I was really surprised when I read this; I thought that it must be wrong, but turns out that LO Sheer Force Landorus does a ton of damage to 4 HP/ 252 SDef Bold Blissey.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%)

You have only have a 1.95% chance to 2HKO after SR, but if you have one layer of Spikes as well that becomes a 95.7% chance to 2HKO. Of course, if you don't have multiple layers of hazards up then SF Landorus-I will still struggle to get past Bliss (not to mention relying on Focus Blast really really sucks), but the fact that a Special attacker can do that much to Blissey without a boost is pretty incredible.
 
Okay, you ran a neutral nature in your calc, that's why it came out to a bit less than mine did.

252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 4HP/252SpDef Blissey (Neutral): 43% - 51% (286 - 338 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO.

I ran a Modest Rock Polish set and as you can see, the power is just incredible.
 

alexwolf

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If you are running Stone Edge then you lose Spore, or Low Sweep, or Mach Punch, which in turn means you struggle with other things. In addition, with CB its easier to predict around you since you lack good coverage. Even with Stone Edge, you still lose to Celebi (which was what I was referring to when I said counters (my fault, I should have spelled it out for you -_- )) Leech Seed doesn't beat counters and I really don't see how Leech Seed is (for example) helping you out against Xatu, and Latias / Tornadus / Celebi which all have recovery? I guess you can Leech Seed them, they force you out and get to nuke something or I guess like umm heal I guess? I don't see how you are beating them but whatever, maybe you and I are playing different levels of players or something, since iv been able to handle LS Loom easily.
Yeah when running Stone Edge you forfeit Spore, but you still get a very potent wallbreaker with super strong priority. Simply the threat of Spore is enough to force switches and make your opponent sacrifice their least valuable team member. Yeah it is easier to predict around the CB set, but this is true for every CB user out there (except from Kyu-B maybe, which isn't such a good CB user anyway) and isn't a point against Breloom. And yeah Celebi is the only surefire counter to Breloom, but most pokemons have counters too, so i don't see why this makes Breloom any less threatening. Hell Terrakion is countered by Hippowdon but it still is in S rank. If you want Celebi out of the way run BandTar or weaken it with Keldeo or something, that's what teammates are for. Leech Seed coupled with Protect, SR and possibly sand damage racks up damage against Breloom's checks and counters very fast, especially those without recovery. True Celebi, Latias, and Torn-T have reliable recovery, but Latios, Dragonite, and Gengar often lack it. My point is that different Breloom sets require different handling, except from universal counters, mainly Celebi, and even when you know Brelooms's set it can still do great damage to your team. I don't know maybe i am exaggerating a bit and Breloom is high A Rank, but i could see it being placed in S Rank.

I think you misread my post. Sure, when Breloom is in safely, it has set up opportunities via Spore. However, when I said set up opportunities, what I was implying was Breloom switching in and then setting up, which is sometimes tricky. Its nowhere near impossible, I can set up with it most games, but against heavy offensive teams (ironically the teams you claim its good against) its hard to switch in, eat a hit, eat a second hit, spore, (or something). Heavy Offensive teams usually lack pokemon slower than Loom which hurts you somewhat.
You don't have to switch in. Get in after something dies or just lead with it. All you have to do is survive one hit and then you can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore and cripple or kill another one with a +2 Fight Gem Mach Punch. Oh and Fight Gem Breloom runs HP and SpD EVs which means that it can usually find the set-up opportunity that it needs.

My death fodder outspeeds and breaks your sub, you are forced to kill, then I bring in my revenge killer and it doesn't get to fuck me up :)
Your death fodder could be slower though (any defensive Pokemon basically) :D

EDIT: BurningMan i didn't forget about it, you can either kill with Seed Bomb or put to sleep with Spore, and either is fine. No matter what slower Pokemon comes in, as long as you can kill it with your STABs, you will come out of the situation with a Sub up.
 
Some food for thought: With Genesect banned should defensive Pokemon like Blissey / Chansey move up? I think that stall is pretty viable now.
Like Pocket said, Genesect did not hurt stall one bit. I loved seeing Genesect when I was playing stall because it was one less thing for my team to worry about. Chansey walled it to hell and back, as did Jirachi in rain. Landorus was much more terrifying, since it outspeeds a whole stall team without even having to set up, and you have to keep Chansey very healthy. Keldeo also did crazy work and forces defensive teams to run Celebi/Tentacruel/Amoonguss. Terrakion is as scary as ever.

So, for someone who likes stall, Genesect's ban was a bad thing, because it means that the other overpowered attackers will just be used more, and stall will have to deal with one more Keldeo/NP Thunderus/CB Terrakion/Tornadus(-T)/DD Dragonite on every team.
 

ginganinja

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Alexwolf man you bring up good points, but I keep seeing, 'if it has spore then its coutnered by x but Stone Edge OHKOs x OMG"

Its cliche but remember that Breloom cannot run Sub / Leech Seed / Seed Bomb / Focus Punch / Stone Edge / Swords Dance / Spore / Bullet Seed / Mach Punch. If it loses Spore its not getting those "free kills" you bring up, and if you use Stone Edge, you are prolly using a Choice Set which lacks spore, and can be predicted around without too much difficulty. The original argument was that Breloom has a lot of counters, and unlike Terrakion it really lacks a way to get past them. Stone Edge works but again, you lack Spore, and prolly get your item choice locked into Choice Band.

On Leech Seed

You are missing the point, Leech Seed is bulky and annoying as fuck but its not anywhere near as threatening since it lacks Tech + SD + priority. Sure, it *might* be able to gradually beat Dragonite but who cares, with your lack of coverage I bet I can find more.

I think its top tier A rank, you think its S rank, neither of us are convincing the other so lets put this issue to rest and move on.
 

alexwolf

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Yeah Ginga we said everything there is to say...

On the matter of Chansey and Blissey i agree that they should be put in B Rank as they are the best special walls in the tier, and even if they somewhat struggle to wall everything in the special side they are the best at what they do.
 

ganj4lF

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Don't really agree with Stoutland in B-rank...I get that this is not about comparisons, but let's forget that and compare it with Venusaur. It's unable to boost, it's predictable, it's frail (weakness to Mach Punch, which is the bane of high speed mons, plus neutrality to everything else), and it's extremely limited in item choices (I always see band, maybe LO can work but that will cut even shorter its life span and make priority revenge killing a breeze). Venusaur has diverse movesets, resistances to some common attacking types, can recover lost health, can easily get to +2 in its own weather. Not saying that Stoutland is bad (I even played and appreciated quite a bit TGMD's team), but I still see it as a niche poke that's best suited for C-rank.
 
HippoLand teams have been established for so long in BW I'd call C tier a conservative estimate, but the thing that needs to change here is Tornadus-T going to S-Tier. I doubt anyone would debate it is the single best rain abuser and even the least liberal tiering guys I know (bar one) believe it's a clear uber.
 

Lavos

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Why is the BIRD still D-Rank? I feel like my post a couple pages ago was completely ignored. Aerodactyl plays no games.

(go back and read my post that I refuse to quote, then respond to me)
 
I'm not posting with a lengthy input of intelligent arguments.
But I would like to ask you guys a question: what do you now think about dragonite and garchomp's "tier" placement on the list? With the absence of genesect, do you believe the two top-quality dragons have significantly improved in terms of their prowess in the OU meta? Or do you believe the cyborg insect's absence has not done too much in regards to the two dragon's effectiveness in the meta?
 
Can anyone please tell me how Jirachi isn't S-Tier? i made a detailed description a few pages back taking apart the definition of S-Rank and described how Jirachi fits into it. If anyone wants, I can copy and paste it here. It is post 822.
 
I'm not posting with a lengthy input of intelligent arguments.
But I would like to ask you guys a question: what do you now think about dragonite and garchomp's "tier" placement on the list? With the absence of genesect, do you believe the two top-quality dragons have significantly improved in terms of their prowess in the OU meta? Or do you believe the cyborg insect's absence has not done too much in regards to the two dragon's effectiveness in the meta?
Garchomp will probably go up to S-Tier now that the Robobug is gone.
 

Gary

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Why is the BIRD still D-Rank? I feel like my post a couple pages ago was completely ignored. Aerodactyl plays no games.

(go back and read my post that I refuse to quote, then respond to me)
Wow, you were pretty much ignored... That's annoying.

Anyways, I agree with you that Aerodactyl should most definitely be praised for it's amazing speed, and being able to set up Stealth Rocks faster then any other Pokemon in OU. I think the reason many shun him over Deoxys-D or even Azelf, is because most people tend to sack their Stealth Rock lead at the beginning of the battle, AKA Suicide Lead. The reason Deoxys-D is used over Aerodactyl as a Suicide Hazard Lead, is pretty obvious because of it's insane bulk, decent speed, and the ability to be slightly offensive and access to Spikes as well. Azelf is used over Aerodactyl because it can use Explosion after getting up rocks, at least that's why I think people would rather use him, and he's got nice SpA too for a final blow with Fire Blast or Psychic. Anyways, Aerodactyl has really nice coverage, so why sack him at the beginning of the battle? If you keep Aero alive for a longer period of time in the battle, he can actually be a really nice offensive presence that can actually fight back against spinners and Steel types. Being so fast even lets him out speed Tornadus-T, and Edgequake is a great combo when facing Sun teams.

All in all, Aerodactyl needs some love. Seconding Lavos on moving Aerodactyl to C-Tier.
 
I used to play Aerodactyl lead a lot in DPP, and depending on matchup I wouldn't suicide lead it and kept it around to be a revenge killer. A couple things about Aero are pretty notable in the current meta:

1) As preposterous as it seems, Aerodactyl checks Tornadus-T pretty hard. Rock Slide with no Life Orb OHKOs Tornadus-T after rocks, and Hurricane, U-turn, and Hidden Power Ground are all resisted by Aero. Even with no Sand, Focus Blast and Superpower fail to kill with rocks:

252Atk Unnerve Aerodactyl (Neutral) Rock Slide vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 84% - 100% (254 - 302 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 4% chance to OHKO.

252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Aerodactyl (Neutral): 63% - 74% (191 - 226 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

4Atk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Superpower vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Aerodactyl (Neutral): 52% - 62% (159 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Considering Aero can switch in relatively safely, threaten a kill, and possibly even roost off the damage or set up subs, it's probably one of the best answers to Tornadus-T that your (sand) team is going to get.

2) Other things unhappy to see Aerodactyl include Heatran and Ninetales (switching into Heatran Fire Blast in sun hurts though).

252SpAtk Ninetales (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Aerodactyl (Neutral): 44% - 52% (135 - 160 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Aerodactyl (Neutral): 61% - 72% (186 - 219 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Aerodactyl (Neutral): 27% - 32% (83 - 98 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

3) It's generally a pretty good revenge killer that outspeeds anything unboosted (save a tie with Jolteon). You pretty much run Rock Slide or Stone Edge, EQ, and have space for two moves out of Roost/Sub/SR/Taunt/Ice Fang/Aerial Ace/Fire Blast.

I'm not saying it's good exactly, but I think the prevalence of Tornadus-T really helps its case for C-Tier.
 
SR weakness aside, I like Choice Scarf Aero as a revenge killer. Outspeeds Salamence/Gyarados/Dragonite/Volcornia at +1 and maims them with Rock Slide.
 

panamaxis

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HippoLand teams have been established for so long in BW I'd call C tier a conservative estimate, but the thing that needs to change here is Tornadus-T going to S-Tier. I doubt anyone would debate it is the single best rain abuser and even the least liberal tiering guys I know (bar one) believe it's a clear uber.
if something needs rain/sun/sand to work it should be A-Tier at best imo. Needing a specific weather to be active is a pretty big flaw.

Also a bit off topic but if we're getting to the point of debating banning stuff like Tornadus-T this should be a pretty clear indication that we need to re-evaluate politoed rather than tornadus. Let's be honest, tornadus-T usage would sink like a stone without politoed and no-one would even consider banning it.

My humble opinion
 
SR weakness aside, I like Choice Scarf Aero as a revenge killer. Outspeeds Salamence/Gyarados/Dragonite/Volcornia at +1 and maims them with Rock Slide.
About Gyarados, unless he's Jolly he will never outspeed a max speed positive-natured Aero at +1; Gyarados only hits 391.

Instead of those Pokémon, I'm more interested in how we he revenges Chlorophyll sweepers with a scarf. Does he even need a positive nature to beat them?
 
Yeah, Gyarados (and Dragonite, whose actually 1 point slower than Gyarados) need Jolly to outspeed Aerodactyl.

Also, IIRC, Scarf Aerodactyl needs Jolly if Sun Venusaur is running Timid. I think Adamant Aero Scarf outruns Sun Modest Venusaur, I'll double check tomorrow when I wake up.
 
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