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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Maybe seconding this? Hydreigon is definitely an underrated threat and he hurts everything like hell. I wouldn't call him the best scarfer, however. His odd speed hurts him, making him weak to faster revenge killers who have a type advantage over him (Salamence, the Lati twins, Terrakion and Keldeo being the major threats), and I personally feel that not allowing Hydreigon to switch moves is a waste of his fantastic coverage.

    Is he A-tier material, though? Eh, maybe. I wouldn't complain if he was moved, that's for sure.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Ok now that Genesect is gone time to go through some Pokemon:

    Skarmory

    I am really torn about Skarmory right now. On the bright side, Genesect's recent banning made Skarmory much more viable, as Skarmory was pure set-up bait for RP Genesect, and in general hated Genesect. Skarmory was and still is one of the best physical walls in the game, with awesome bulk, resistances, reliable healing, Spikes and SR, and phazing (it can even use Taunt). This allows it to wall or check some prominent physical attackers such as Scarf Salamence, DD Mence locked into Outrage, any DDNite and CBNite locked into Outrage, choice Kyurem-B locked into anything bar Fusion Bolt, Scarf Terrakion, Mamoswine, physical Landorus, and Garchomp.

    However, the fact that Skarmory is a purely defensive Pokemon that slows down the pace of the game does not help it in such a fast paced meta, especially when many of the special attackers that easily force it out can easily switch into it, namely Thund-T (with SR off), SubCM Jirachi, SubToxic Tentacruel, Specs Politoed, LO Latias, Rotom-W, Starmie, Magnezone, and Ninetales (with SR off). And giving a free switch in to those Pokemon is never a good thing, as most of them are quite difficult to wall, while the others are annoying to deal with due to particular reasons (Volt Switch and WoW on Rotom-W, Scald on Starmie, and SubToxic on Tenta). Also when using Skarmory, if one wants to really abuse its Spkiking ability, then he must dedicate a slot to a spin-blocker, as Skarmory is Rapid Spin bait, slowing down the team even more as more Ghosts are defensive Pokemon (except when running Gengar, but Gengar is usually seen on offensive teams, where Skarmory doesn't fit), which again is not such a good thing atm. Finally, while Skarmory certainly checks a lot of physical attackers, it cannot wall most S and A rank physical Pokemon as a whole, meaning that you cannot deal with them solely with Skarmory. For example, Skarmory can easily switch into ScarfMence and Scarf Terrakion, but not against DDMence and any other Terrakion, meaning that you must use more checks for those Pokemon. In fact Skarmory completely walls very few Pokemon in S and A rank, mainly Garchomp, who can still get past it if run on a sun team, Dragonite, and Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated. Against all other Pokemon Skarmory has to scout sets first, limiting its ability to freely switch in early game against Pokemon that it is supposed to handle, such as physical Landorus, physical Kyurem-B, and SpD Jirachi.

    So even though Skarmory is still a very good poke, and it is the best all around Dragon-type counter ever if you use a SpD set in rain, it kind of struggles in this fast paced meta, or at least struggles enough to not be in A Rank. That's why i believe that Skarmory should remain in B Rank.

    Breloom

    Even though the banning of Genesect had little influence over Breloom, i think we should really consider putting Breloom in S Rank. Breloom's versatility, ability to sweep, and threat level were never this high. Breloom can run 4 different but all very destructive sets, namely SD, CB, SubPunch, and SpD with Leech Seed, which often have different check and counters. After sacrificing something to sleep, you bring in Latios thinking you will be able to revenge kill the SD set? Bam Breloom threatens for a 2HKO with LO Low Sweep or sets up a Sub proceeding to scout for your move and then smack you around with Focus Punch. You bring in Skarmory after Sleep Clause is activated? Bam CB Low Sweep 2HKOes with very little prior damage. But Breloom is not only versatile, it is also powerful, has Spore which often equals to a free kill, has good resistances to switch in against many defensive Pokemon, and finally has Mach Punch to serve as a very good revenge killer. It does so many things, and it does them so good, making it a huge influence in OU. I could say more but we all know how good Breloom is, and most of you have already a solid opinion about Breloom's ranking so i will stop here.
  3. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I dunno alexwolf, I can't see Breloom being S Rank. As in, if anything faster that is resistant to Mach Punch is still alive and healthy, Breloom will seriously struggle to sweep. Are you going to switch these Mach Punch resists in on Spore? Hell no, that's beyond stupidity. Unless your name is Xatu, that is.

    Let's look at what's in S rank already. Well, the only true sweeper there is Terrakion. Terrakion has much greater dual-STAB coverage than Breloom (have I mentioned how terrible Grass/Fighting coverage is?). Can anything switch in on Terrakion? I mean stuff that's relevant, so no Golurk. Anyway, the answer to that is no. On the other hand, looking at Breloom, a ton of crap can switch in given that Sleep Clause is activated, as in most Pokemon that resist both of its STAB moves, which is really a lot. There are two foolproof revenge killers to Terrakion: Scizor and Breloom. On the other hand, if you're faster than Breloom and resistant/immune to Mach Punch (or even just bulky enough to take one), odds are you can revenge kill it. These Pokemon resistant/immune to Mach Punch are so commonplace that teams often have at least two of them by default. So, Breloom S-rank? I don't think so.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The thing is that Breloom is not only a sweeper. Breloom can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore, except from a few select cases, has strong priority, and is very versatile as he can run sets that all require different counter and/or checks. Terrakion has none of those. Sure it can sweep better, but Breloom can do things other than sweeping, which is where its value lies. If only the SD set existed i wouldn't propose Breloom for S rank, but with all the different and effective sets he has, he is quite a force and is one of the best Pokemon i have used the past months.
  5. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Waking up is hard to do...

    But seriously in many mus a sleeping pokmon might as well be dead. So if breloom gets off a spore whatever else it does feels "free."
  6. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I'm just going to split parts of this up...

    The last part of this is false. Breloom's sets all have that awful Grass/Fighting coverage in common, so they actually very frequently share the same checks and counters (removing Gliscor and Gengar for Technician sets since they don't like taking Bullet Seeds).

    "Sweeping better" is all that matters, really. Let's look at Breloom's sets: Physical attacker with Life Orb/Choice Band, Swords Dance, Choice Scarf, and Sub sets with Poison Heal. And once again, all of these sets have many checks/counters in common, and it's not like Scarf Breloom is common at all. Often times the Pokemon that actually gets put to sleep is that Pokemon that won't end up doing much for the rest of the battle anyway (I switch in the least useful member of my team into Spore a lot, why wouldn't I?) As for Sporing something.... Breloom's slow and frail, man. Not really a good combo. Best you can do is force out something weak to Mach Punch or choice-locked, but in the former case they may just end up predicting you to go for Spore and simply kill you.
  7. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    I like to view Skarmory as insurance against almost every physical threat in OU. Obviously it's not going to wall everything on it's own, but usually you can switch it in and guarantee your team is not getting swept due to Whirlwind, Bulk, and Sturdy. It's more of a general pivot, and you use it to double down on the number of things you check. I also generally use SR instead of Spikes on Skarmory, since Ferrothorn is pretty much the better Spiker with it's natural resistance to Volt-Turn and Iron Barb + Power Whip to punish Rapid Spinners.
  8. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    This post has a few things wrong with it. Firstly, Breloom is pretty much only a sweeper, yes, you can have that gay Spore / Leech Seed / Protect / Drain Punch set (or whateverit is), but by and large its a sweeper. Secondly, as pointed out Breloom doesn't really "get around" its counters (outside of Spore), since its move are pretty much in stone (grass / fighting / Spore / SD or another fighting move) as many of its sets share the same base counters or checks. Its also somewhat tricky for Breloom to set up, you can run bulk, but then you lose out on priority wars, and if you run speed then boosted water attacks do a ton, which, added with Life Orb means that you are not hanging around for long. Compare this with Terrakion, which also has a fair few number of weaknesses, but under sandstorm it can take a large number of special attacks, without sandstorm it still has excellent bulk which let it set up a sub, SD, or Rock Polish boost, making it truly tough to handle. I think Breloom is a top tier pokemon, easily on of the better pokemon in A rank, but I hardly see it as a "potential" suspect at this stage of the metagame, and yea, I think it belongs in A Tier.
  9. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Hydreigon's too slow for a dragon. You'd be better off with something like LO Latias as a wallbreaker. I tried them both, and Latias was better by a mile.
  10. Hiphopanonymous

    Hiphopanonymous

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    I actually would like to agree that Hydreigon should be moved up as well. It may be slow, but it does have power, and arguably more versatility than the Lati's. Obviously not broken, but is VERY underrated in my opinion and now that Genesect is gone, Hydreigon has it's chance to shine once again. Despite it's weaknesses, it still has some neat resistances to use with it's decent bulk, combined with the wide offensive movepool that it boasts, it's more than usable.
  11. RabidChipmunk

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    Hydreigon has the capability to go mixed and doesn't care about Tyranitar, who scares the Lati twins shitless.. Plus Hydreigon's low-speed can actually be a point in its favor, since that means it can afford to run a Modest nature, giving its attacks a lot of extra kick.
  12. G-Von

    G-Von

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    The problem is that it has to run jolly to outspeed Haxorus and base 95's UU's used in OU like Arcanine and Darmanitan.
  13. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Haxorus rarely runs Jolly though, so you can bet on Hydreigon outspeeding it most of the time.
  14. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Haxorus usually runs Adamant for the same reason Hydreigon runs Modest (more firepower, nothing notable to outspeed). And if we're assuming for a second here that Darmanitan and (lol) Arcanine are actually threats to prepare for, don't they both also tend to run Adamant natures?
  15. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Darmanitan usually runs choice scarf so it doesn't really matter wither way, and arcanine usually runs adamant. As for Hydeigon for A, I'm not really seeing it. I feel as a special attacker its easily outclassed by the latis, and as a wallbreaker it now has stiff competeion with Kyu-b. I think hes high B tier and should be left at that.
  16. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I wouldn't call Hydreigon outclassed by any of those Pokemon; just different. Hydreigon is slower than the Lati twins, but has a better typing and more firepower (assuming Latios is Timid, which it usually is). However, I do feel that using Hydreigon as a pure special attacker is a waste of his potential.

    As far as Cube is concerned, again, Hydreigon isn't outclassed; he's just different. What he lacks in Cube's sheer, Earth-shattering, face-melting power, he makes up for with better typing, a ground immunity, and an actual movepool with actual coverage moves. So yeah, I'd say Hydreigon is at the very least high B, but potential low-mid range A.
  17. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    Pretty pointless to say "if x goes Modest or Timid" etc.
    Watch the Stats, Hydreigon hits less hard and he's far slower.
    Why would you talk about natures?

    Hydreigon has a good typing, but that's it.
    To be honest I agree with what has been said, he's not totally outclassed but mostly.
  18. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Not giving a damn about Tyranitar is probably Hydreigon's biggest selling point. But IMO, it ends there.

    As for running mixed - Superpower is pretty much a Christmas gift for Tyranitar alone (Chansey doesn't even get 2HKOed), what else can Hydreigon run? Earthquake? Who's that going to hit? Jirachi who outspeeds you? Terrakion, who also outspeeds you? I count Heatran, Lucario, and Magnezone.

    Not investing in attack also means your attacks will significantly lack power. U-turn is cool for scouting sets, but that's about it.

    Also, what's the point of having a Modest nature if you're going to get outsped and KOed anyway? I'd take the speed advantage any day.

    Hydreigon's a good wall breaker, who are usually on the slower side. Alas, this meta is way too offensive for him to shine.
  19. Siggu

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    Actually, with SR, a layer of Spikes, and a Mild nature, Hydreigon can 2HKO a perfectly healthy Chansey with a combination of Superpower and Draco Meteor, but it needs good damage rolls (Or more layers of hazards) to do so

    Specially Defensive Heatran is 2HKOed by Superpower most of the time, too
  20. DrNeoCortex

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    I think this may be kind of random, and I apologize in advance if this has been covered already, but it bothers me that Stoutland isn't even on this list. He deserves at least C or B because he's really fast under sandstorm and is just powerful enough to abuse the speed. He has useful niche in OU and definitely is something to watch for.
  21. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    The on-site analysis generally recommends running Roost to offset Life Orb recoil, but I preferred Earthquake to hit incoming steel-types without lowing Hydreigon's Attack.

    I've never been trying to argue Hydreigon as anything other than a wallbreaker (hence my emphasis on running a Modest nature), but you have a point in your last statement. There's really no point in being a wallbreaker when there are no walls to break anymore.
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Lol wow, you're right, DrNeoCortex :o Stoutland should definitely join the ranks of Venusaur - double speed in Sand is almost unfair! HippoLand has been around for quite some time now, with users such as Gamestar and The Great Mighty Doom popularizing it with their respective RMTs.
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    CB Breloom, all out attacker Breloom, and Leech Seed Breloom all can defeat common checks and counters to other sets. Gengar, Xatu, Gliscor (which is a shitty check anyway), Torn-T, Lati@s, and Dnite, all common switch-ins to Breloom after Sleep Clause has been activated, can be defeated by the appropriate set, which leaves only Celebi as a true counter to Breloom.

    Scarf Breloom is almost never seen so i won't count for it. But i really fail to get how you can say that sweeping better is all that matters when out of all the sets you listed only the SD set aims to sweep. And no they don't have many checks in common. In fact this is the point of using CB in the first place, to lure common switch-ins to Breloom and destroy them. As you said the least valuable member will be put to sleep, but this is still a loss and counts as losing a Pokemon. As for Breloom being slow and frail, i agree, but it still can get plenty set-up opportunities due to all its threatening traits. It can either Spore a slower mon, force out a faster mon with Mach Punch, or take a hit from a faster mon and then use Spore.

    Breloom is not pretty much only a sweeper. You are talking about SD Breloom, which is not its only set. CB or all out attacker Breloom, SubPunch and finally Leech Seed Breloom are not sweepers, they are wallbreakers and annoyers. Just because SD Breloom is the most popular set doesn't mean i should only talk about it.

    Breloom doesn't get around its counters? Oh really? Then why can CB Breloom beat Xatu, Dragonite, Latias, and Sleep Talk Torn-T, pokes that usually counter it (some of them after Sleep Clause)? Why does the Leech Seed set easily build residual damage on would be counters, beating them in the long run, or allowing to your other Pokemon free switches? Or why the whole game turns around when you send your death fodder in Breloom, in order to bring in your revenge kiler safely after it dies, when what you were expecting to be an SD Breloom turns out to be a SubPunch set, meanin the Breloom gets a sub on the switch, kills the death fodder and then proceeds to fuck you up?

    Finally you are right that Breloom's flaw lies to his low bulk and speed, which sometimes makes it tricky to bring in, but still i believe that he finds plenty set-up opportunities. Be it against a slower poke that he can Spore and then set-up, against a faster poke that he can force out with Mach Punch, or against a faster poke that cannot OHKO it, Breloom will find the set-up opportunity it needs to get started. And once it gets started it will be very dangerous if played right. Simply the fact that against offensive teams Breloom can cripple pretty much two Pokemon guaranteed makes it really good (one with Spore and the second with Fight Gem +2 Mach Punch which almost kills even frail fighting resists that offensive teams carry). Yeah full counters exist, Xatu and Celebi mainly, but let's not forget that Breloom is half the reason that Xatu is seeing the light of OU, and the other half reason is a potential suspect, Deo-D.

    -----------------------

    People should really use Hydreigon more, it is disturbing how many here don't have a clue about it. Some say that Latios is a better wallbreaker, some say that Latios is stronger, and some others that Superpower doesn't really help Hydreigon do anything else except from beating Ttar. Hydreigon is a far better wallbreaker than Latios, because it can 2HKO the whole tier, with zero exceptions. Yeah even Chansey if you are smart and you EV it right. Hydreigon is stronger than Latios in practice because it can afford to use a Modest nature while Latios can't. If you use a Modest nature on Latios then you are doing something wrong, which means that Modest Latios is non existent in practice. Finally Superpower is super useful and allows Hydreigon to deal with Ttar, Blissey, Chansey, and Heatran.

    Actually Stoutland has been discussed before, and the general consensus was that while it is good, it is somewhat outclassed by Scarf Landorus as a revenge killer for Sand teams, which is the reason why he deserves to be in C Rank. Before anyone jumps in, i said somewhat, not completely, which means that usually Landorus will be the best choice, but Stoutland has its uses as well.
  24. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    ^C rank seems good but it currently isn't on the list anywhere.
  25. Ninetale3

    Ninetale3

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    I would like to suggest rotom c for c or d rank.

    Simply put rotom c is probably one of the most terrifying pokemon a rain team can fight. It's stabs alone can take out a third of rain teams if played correctly and only walled by there scizor or forretress to some extent on a scarf set. Rotom c's hidden powers also contribute to how well it does allowing it to take on dragons if they aren't at +1 atk and landorus all the better or take care of the mentioned steels easier as well as a clean kill on abomasnow if it is willing to take a hefty toll if abomasnow packs an ice shard on any but a banded set.

    However, Rotom C has some hefty negatives on it such as being dead weight against sun and is troubled a little against drag mag thanks to kyurem b. Rotom C will always lose to a thunderus T without specs since it needs the extra power behind the HP Ice.
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