Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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I wish to vote zoroark for B rank. He can not sweep a vast majority of the meta as required in S and A, he requires some support (he prefers no hazards to give the disguise up), and maybe fighting types removed, and good "partners" and "disguises", however, he has a solid niche. He can act as a ninja and assassinate certain threats. For example, if he runs a physical set he can bluff as a special attacker, and either kill or severely injure blissey. And if running a mixed set he could do the same to skarm. So in my opinion, although not even OU, I have used him and I know what he is capable of
Zoroark is C tier IMO. Zoroark does have a niche and does support many teams but does not have the capabilities of other pokemon that are in the B Tier.
 
I would hesitate to say that Chandelure is so useless under rain. Specs STAB Shadow Ball coming off base 145 SpAtk is still Specs STAB Shadow Ball coming off base 145 SpAtk. For instance, Tornadus-T is OHKOd after Rocks, period. Keldeo is risking an OHKO with a layer of spikes.

Hell, 252/252+ Ferrothorn is still OHKOd with Specs Flamethrower in the rain. Fire Blast is a very comfortable 2HKO on Jirachi in the rain. As far as other checks go, 252/252+ Tyranitar is 2HKOd by HP Fighting (does a minimum of 65%) and Heatran is 2HKOd with some prior damage/hazards.

So yeah. Specs Chandelure is still properly terrifying to face.
 
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Aerodactyl up from D-tier ==> C-tier

Aero moving to C-tier was something I should have done a while ago. The arguments against Aerodactyl were coming from people (such as myself even) who didn't seriously use Aerodactyl at a competitive level who were against people who DID use Aerdodactyl on a competitive level and actually succeeded with it (it's hard to ignore Lavos' testimony since he used it at WCOP.) The thing about Aerodactyl is that regardless of how the metagame is like, it'll always excel at being a suicide lead, which actually kind of means something in BW2 (which is still fast-paced even with Genesect gone).

so up it goes!

As for Zoroark... hmm, having used it semi-religiously on the general ladder, I do think its OU worthy. B-tier is way too high i'm afraid, but C-tier seems like a good fit. It's certainly possible to trick people (once) with Illusion, especially now that Pokemon Showdown has implemented Illusion correctly (and you get to switch your team around before battle when using Zoroark, bonus). If you don't go about using it in a silly way that is (ie not having it disguise as Gliscor or w/e, bringing it out as early as possible instead of saving it lategame, and being smart with your disguises). The thing about Zoroark is that its coverage allows it to fuck up a good portion of OU, but it suffers from its non-existent bulk. Pretty much any STAB or SE move will one shot it, so it's a unforgiving Pokemon to use, if it had like 111 speed it would be a baller. I wouldn't call it bad though, it's fast enough so that you're always guaranteed to get some mileage out of it.

Any more thoughts on this?

PS: (I can get rid of this awful avatar tomorrow, :nerd:)
 
I'm a pretty avid user of Zoroark in OU, and I must say C-tier is a good fit. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a pretty good Pokemon, but let's look at the C-tier definition:

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.
Fits into this pretty nicely. It does have crippling flaws that prevents it from consistently executing its strategy (non-existent bulk), and it's even more dependent on the support it receives than it is in UU. Give it that support and it's pretty effective, though.
 

D-Tier??? RU Kidding me? (joke joke...).

This prehistoric flying Dinosaur may be ancient but definitely deserves a little more recognition and not go extinct. Check it. Base 130 Speed. In the OU Metagame, that shit is just godly. Being able to outspeed practically anyone (which includes base 129 base speed Pokemon and below along with base 70 Scarfers...which is stupid 'cause those don't really fly around a lot haha), Aerodactyl introduces itself with quite a flashy showcase of speed. Next up, is his offensive stats. Base 105 Attack is above average and quite solid. It pales a bit when put up against the OU Titans such as Lucario, Terrakion, Conkeldurr, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Hydreigon and so forth. However it's good enough that it is quite useable. (I mean it's more offensive than stuff like SD Gliscor at least haha). Aerodactyl is almost always running Sash with Rocks and Taunt. This really allows Aerodactyl to stop entry hazards from coming up on your side while putting your on Rocks up. He works well against stuff like Sash Terrakion. EQ is a solid 2HKO and thanks to Sash+Higher base speed, Terrakion will either have to run and allow an opportunity for Aero to set up Rocks OR Terrakion can be KO'd and you can battle worry-free of those troublesome rocks. Aerodactyl has Hone Claws which isn't terrible. It has its uses. Stone Edge misses became a laughing matter as he boosts. One time is enough to bring Stone Edge to a comfortable level of usage and reliability. With Rocks up and a +1, Aerodactyl can do some work to a worn down team. Keep in mind, Aerodactyl is better off utilizing a Focus Sash and it better off in the Sand (it really helps).

+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 308-364 (95.06 - 112.34%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 260-306 (68.42 - 80.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 255-300 (84.43 - 99.33%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 198-234 (68.98 - 81.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

Just some random calcs, but you can see that Aerodactyl is not terribly outclassed as an offensive late game cleaner. His plethora of Priority weaknesses is obvious but again, they should have received prior damage and a Sash should be held by Aero to ensure Aero can go and take them out.
Aerodactyl is a Pokemon with a hell of a lot of flaws. But, he has his perks. D-Tier sounds a little too harsh.
"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks." C-Tier really sounds applicable. With Support as listed, Aerodactyl can work surprisingly well for a "poor" Pokemon in this Meta. He does have crippling flaws though and this does hold him back. But Aero is definitely "worth the time" and can fulfil more than just a "tiny niche".
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1. Aerodactyl is not even out
2. It has piss poor defense.
3. It can't set up
4. None of the pokemon you mentioned will ever switch into aerodactly.
5. Only thing Aero is good for is suicide lead
6. Aerodactyl is lucky to even be on the tier
 
Slightly conflicted

So be it. Zorro is C. Thank you all for not giving me the response I thought I spoils be greeted with. "Lol scrub", "Lol nuub", etc etc. At least there was a certain about of debate to it. :)
 
aero should be c at the least

it is the only sr user that can guarantee you to have sr and the other team to not have sr. it also completely kills sun!

edit @ below

it also maintains mid-game viability with its ability to outspeed and ohko notable threats like tornadus thundurus +1 dragonite among others
 
aero should be c at the least

it is the only sr user that can guarantee you to have sr and the other team to not have sr. it also completely kills sun!
No to both those statements.

1) The only stealth rock use who can also guarantee the opponent does not get up stealth rock is Deoxys-D. All he has to do is Magic Coat a predicted Taunt and boom, suddenly Deo gets up his stealth rocks and Aero doesn't.

2) Being able to completely kill sun teams is a relatively worthless niche in a tier absolutely dominated by rain.
 
I'm surprised that Tangrowth hasn't been added to this list yet, given that we have quite a few niche Pokemon on here already. Whilst I love it to bits and could argue that it's almost good enough for B-tier, I think C-tier would be much less controversial.

Abysmal Sp. Defense aside, it's an absolute boss when it comes to sponging Physical hits - it's probably the most physically bulky Pokémon in OU in fact. Mono-Grass is actually a decent defensive typing for a physical wall, allowing Tangrowth to check a large variety of threats, including but not limited to Dragonite, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Jirachi (physical), Breloom, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Sharpedo etc. It has enough of a support movepool in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Knock Off to be of good utility, and with Leech Seed in tandem with Regenerator, it just never dies. Unlike other, similar tanks, Tangrowth is also very competent offensively, meaning it isn't easily used as fodder.

I often find myself coming back to Tangrowth when I just need a solid, multipurpose Physical wall, and rarely does it disappoint.

On the topic of Aerodactyl - although I claimed it was D-tier material earlier in this thread, upon using it a bit more myself I've changed my mind. I like how it can set up Stealth Rock as reliably as Deoxys-D, without being completely worthless once the hazards are up.

Chandelure should stay in D-tier though; the metagame is far too unkind to it. It may hit very hard, but it's too slow to make much of an impact, and its vulnerability to hazards is a big letdown. It's pretty much completely outclassed by Heatran offensively and defensively, and I'd argue that Sableye makes a much better spinblocker for sun teams anyway.

I think Scrafty should also be added to D-tier - this article summarises why. If anything, just as a deterrent for new players using it, as I'm still seeing it quite a bit on the lower half of the ladder, despite it being very mediocre in this metagame. By the same logic, I'm going to suggest Charizard for E-tier as I really have a massive pet hate for when it shows up in an OU battle. Looking at the past months usage statistics, it's used way more than even some of things ranked in B-tier on this list. That shouldn't be the case, and the word needs to get out to newbies that Charizard is terrible, Solar Power or no Solar Power.
 
I don't see how Chandelure is a great Spin-blocker, when every decent spinner in OU bar Forretress kills it on the switch without hazards. And if rocks are up, it can't even switch into that.
Chandelure is not a good spinblocker to rely on, and is easily outclassed by the majority of Ghost-types. It can take advantage of it, though. If it is on the battlefield, it can pull pressure on Rapid Spinner in a mid-game. Starmie fails to OHKO with Hydro Pump some variants, or if it forgo this move, can't pass through a Chandelure with 60%+ HP easily. However, you won't choose it to keep your Deoxys-D's entry hazards.

Chandelure only has one good stat and everything else working against it. Why do I need a counter for Lure when the Rain is up and the only Pokemon it can really do anything to is Ferrothorn? (And sadly Ferrothorn can still break its subs with Gyro Ball and Power Whip, so the player doesn't have to give you any momentum if they don't want to.) If I'm Sand and running Tyrannitar, it'll probably be really hard to get even one kill. Sun, granted, has problems dealing with Lure, but one out of three common weathers is not a good bet. Those lovely calcs conveniently assume that Chandelure will always be on the offensive, which is hard to do with such low speed and nothing much to abate it.

Chandelure would have probably been C-tier early in BW1, but Drizzle just about dwarfs the effectiveness of offensive Fire types outside of Sun, especially with Chandelure's already ubiquitous weaknesses (hazards, Ttar, any sweeper at all). Even C-tier wallbreakers give it stiff competition (Victini, Haxorus, Infernape).
Because of this I've said that Chandelure rely on sun for a full power and it objective is to make it movement while the opponent switch out. In the paper, it can be strange, but three immunities (with Flash Fire) helps a lot. Also, Politoed or Tyranitar can't switch-in without thinking in receiving great damages by Energy Ball or Hidden Power. Even Shadow Ball is 2HKO to 252/0 Politoed. When you want your Chandelure to do deadly damage to anything with Fire Blast, you will send it while sun is up, very similar to Victini. Like Lord of Bays said, some rain threats (Jirachi, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Gastrodon, Physically based Tentacruel...) are not safely switch-in against Chandelure even under the rain, being OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by the right move.

Chandelure should stay in D-tier though; the metagame is far too unkind to it. It may hit very hard, but it's too slow to make much of an impact, and its vulnerability to hazards is a big letdown. It's pretty much completely outclassed by Heatran offensively and defensively, and I'd argue that Sableye makes a much better spinblocker for sun teams anyway.
I agree with you about the spinblocker, but this is not his real role. With this Speed, it attack the opponente in a switch. However, Chandelure is not outclassed by Heatran offensively, as I've said in a previous post and why. Chandelure have impressive power and fits the definition of C-rank perfectly: "can be effective given the right support, but have crippling flaws that prevent him from consistently executing its strategy".
 
I hardly dislike this list, due to the fact that alot of Pokémons are, in my opinion, underrated.

First, I`d like to see Alakazam lower in the list. In alot of battles in OU, I just 2HKOd them with my Jolteon.

I`d love to see Vaporeon getting higher in the list. He is amazing, especially in the rain, and as rain teams are getting more common everyday, this is helpful for Vaporeon. Also, Vaporeon is in my opinion, the best Wish/Protecter.

Also, I think Infernape should be higher. He is actually the counterpart of Lucario. Infernape doesn`t sweep whole teams; but he is very tough and hard to take down.
 
I agree with you about the spinblocker, but this is not his real role. With this Speed, it attack the opponente in a switch. However, Chandelure is not outclassed by Heatran offensively, as I've said in a previous post and why. Chandelure have impressive power and fits the definition of C-rank perfectly: "can be effective given the right support, but have crippling flaws that prevent him from consistently executing its strategy".
Lets take a look at the description for D-tier again.

Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
Switching it is a nightmare - yes, it's got three immunities, but they're almost always paired with moves that will hit it Super Effectively, so the risk factor is still huge. You basically have to double switch to get in, or come in on something that can't hurt you. 60/90/90 defenses aren't great, and hazards ensure that it can only switch around so many times. The base 80 Speed is last nail in the coffin really, ensuring that Chandelure is restricted to hit-and-run tactics in this fast paced metagame. Fire/Ghost is a niche typing, but it doesn't bring anything very notable to the table that sun teams require that can't be done already by something else. Chandelure requires hefty amounts of support to have a chance to make an impact, but to be honest the risk isn't really worth the reward.

It's in a similar boat to things like Honchkrow, for example. Honchkrow has the potential to absolutely decimate most OU teams, but is almost never used in OU simply because it's just so difficult to use effectively. You argue that Chandelure can hit rain 'mons hard with Shadow Ball - that may be so, but more often than not you'll end up in a situation where you have no choice but switch out because you find yourself disadvantaged due to Chandelure's low Speed. It just doesn't have enough bulk to make up for its Speed stat, and being a Fire type hurts it more than it benefits it in the long run. Besides, why bother with Chandelure when you can just use CB Victini and V-create/Bolt Strike everything to death? As Ghosts come, Gengar is far preferable due to actually having a good Speed stat to work with, as well as being much less affected by hazards, plus a Ground immunity.

Using Chandelure requires a level of prediction that's unnecessary for you to put yourself through in a serious OU battle. It's outclassed in each individual attribute - it's interesting in itself, but there's plenty of other options available that give it serious competition for a teamslot. I did admittedly like the Sub+3 attacks set in BW1, but the pace of the metagame has increased significantly since those days. I think these criteria fit the bill for D-tier placement.

Of course, once Shadow Tag is released, this will change. However, that discussion is for another time.

I hardly dislike this list, due to the fact that alot of Pokémons are, in my opinion, underrated.

First, I`d like to see Alakazam lower in the list. In alot of battles in OU, I just 2HKOd them with my Jolteon.
Quite frankly, your opponent wasn't very smart for keeping their Alakazam in. Alakazam is a fantastic revenge killer with Magic Guard-Focus Sash - a niche nothing else in OU has. It can also be a dangerous sweeper with LO.

I`d love to see Vaporeon getting higher in the list. He is amazing, especially in the rain, and as rain teams are getting more common everyday, this is helpful for Vaporeon. Also, Vaporeon is in my opinion, the best Wish/Protecter.
It has to compete with all the other bulky Waters though, who each have unique attributes that make them worth using. Vaporeon can be an effective rain tank but in general it struggles to keep up with the offensive nature of the metagame, and doesn't check very much due to lacking extra resistances.

Also, I think Infernape should be higher. He is actually the counterpart of Lucario. Infernape doesn`t sweep whole teams; but he is very tough and hard to take down.
Have you ever tried attacking Infernape? Watch how fast its HP drops. Oh, and most teams have something that easily checks it, especially the common rain teams. It lacks the great coverage that Lucario has to offer, and so often finds itself easily sponged. As fast Fighting type sweepers go, it's mostly outclassed by Terrakion.
 

alexwolf

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G-Von said:
I cannot stand that fucking pixie Jirachi. He has to be the most annoying pokemon to deal with in OU. Paraflinch, parafusion, paraflinchusion...whatever set it is, it's nerve-racking. Golurk is possibly the best thing to use to deal with it since it can't be paralyzed due to typing from Jirachi. Even then, since its slower, it doesn't need to be paralyzed to get flinched to death or KO'd by Ice Punch. Lets now break down the definition of S-Rank and see if it fits the description. (My comments are in bold)

S Rank:

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support
Seeing how its specially defensive set walls nearly all special attackers, I would say it fits this part. Physical attackers who lack ground or fire moves can get walled for the most part with the same set.

Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
It can set up SR, WishPass, and/or paralyze a pokemon that is your main sweeper's counter. All of this with little to no effort at all.

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.
It can run effective sets like Specially Defensive, Choice Scarf, WishPasser, and the infamous Paraflincher/Parafusion/Paraflinchusion. Of course there are other sets but these are just the most common. If you need a pokemon that can be offensive, defensive, or supportive and make people have no idea what it will do when it is first brought out, Jirachi is the one to go to.

If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Hmm, common weaknesses to ground and fire attacks? Less than stellar Base 100 Attacks stats? I believe that is completely outmatched by its many positives it brings to the table since 'Rachi can survive SE attacks, support all of its teammates, and get the job done offensively anyway. Hell, its immune to T-Spikes and resistant to Stealth Rock, too.

If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
As far as I know, it isn't a suspect. I would be in favor of it being tested though.

Well, there is my breakdown of whether Jirachi is worthy of S-Rank by definition or not. By my explanation, I believe it is. Feel free to agree or disagree. I just hope my words actually have an impact on the readers, and PK since he is the one who is leading this thread.
There are many wrong things with this post. Jirachi doesn't wall nearly all special attackers. Keldeo, Thundurus-T, offensive Starmie in rain, Specs Politoed, Heatran, Ninetales, and Sheer Force Landorus are all very popular special attackers that Jirachi can't wall. It also can't wall any specially mixed dragon outside of rain. Jirachi doesn't offer S Rank support in any way. If you consider SR, paralyze support and Wish support as the requirement for a poke to make it in S Rank under the support criteria then you are way off. Only one two Pokemon are in S Rank under this criteria, so check the amount of support they provide to better set your limits. As for the versatility part i agree that Jirachi is very versatile, but this alone can't bring anything to the S Rank.

So all in all, Jirachi isn't an S Rank defensive poke nor an S Rank supporter so it shouldn't be in S rank. Please stop overestimating it.
 
Jirachi isn't up there with Terrakion, Deo-D and Politoed. I thought we already came to that conclusion earlier in the thread ?_? A tier suits it perfectly.

Anyway, I'm here to propose for C rank lilligant. Of those who are willing to stray from the common venusaur and look for other chlorophyll sweepers, lilligant quickly comes to mind as one of the better choices. Its major perk over venusaur is that once the sun goes out from another starter or some random weather move carrying poke, lilligant can still have a shot of sweeping the opposing team. It does pretty well against rain with the abilty to outspeed Torn-T after a QD not to be underestimated, and most other components of standard rain ferrothorn aside being pretty vulnerable to a moveset of QD/ giga drain/ HP [ICE]/ Sleep powder with Life Orb and Modest Nature. Torn-T is cleanly OHKO's w/o rocks at +1, and nearly all of the common water types found are decimated by giga drain. If you manage to save your sleep powder for Ferrothorn, a full sweep without raim being up isn't out of the question. Both sand weather starters also happen to be weak to this beast, and some common components of sand fall into the same boat, further increasing lilligant's diversity. The lack of way to hit steels with this set is a let down, but its utility outside of sun overcomes that short coming and can help differentiate lilligant from venusaur. Its got a small niche on sun, and thats why I feel that there is a spot for lilligant in the C tier
 
Lilligant is cool, but mono-grass and hidden power coverage sucks. HP Fire and Ice leave you walled by Heatran, while HP Rock just is really useful for Volcarona. Also, unlike Venu, who can hit the blobs with EQ, the blobs utterly shut down Lilligant. You probably mentioned that, but just figured I'd give a shorter summary.
 
Also, unlike Venu, who can hit the blobs with EQ, the blobs utterly shut down Lilligant. You probably mentioned that, but just figured I'd give a shorter summary.
Actually, that's not entirely true. Thanks to Sleep Powder and Giga Drain, Lilligant can boost to +6 and still come out on top in a 1v1 situation against Chansey/Blissey, even if they have Toxic.

Strongly supporting Lilligant for C-tier. Being able to function in other weathers is such a significant attribute when you consider that sun teams have quite a hard time when they aren't winning the weather war.
 
Actually, that's not entirely true. Thanks to Sleep Powder and Giga Drain, Lilligant can boost to +6 and still come out on top in a 1v1 situation against Chansey/Blissey, even if they have Toxic.

Strongly supporting Lilligant for C-tier. Being able to function in other weathers is such a significant attribute when you consider that sun teams have quite a hard time when they aren't winning the weather war.
Fair enough. Solid 2HKO is nothing to laugh at. And yeah, outside of sun Venusaur is worse. It's really do you want more coverage, or something that can function outside of sun but gets walled by Heatran unless you have HP Rock.
 
I'm surprised that Tangrowth hasn't been added to this list yet, given that we have quite a few niche Pokemon on here already. Whilst I love it to bits and could argue that it's almost good enough for B-tier, I think C-tier would be much less controversial.

Abysmal Sp. Defense aside, it's an absolute boss when it comes to sponging Physical hits - it's probably the most physically bulky Pokémon in OU in fact. Mono-Grass is actually a decent defensive typing for a physical wall, allowing Tangrowth to check a large variety of threats, including but not limited to Dragonite, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Jirachi (physical), Breloom, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Sharpedo etc. It has enough of a support movepool in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Knock Off to be of good utility, and with Leech Seed in tandem with Regenerator, it just never dies. Unlike other, similar tanks, Tangrowth is also very competent offensively, meaning it isn't easily used as fodder.

I often find myself coming back to Tangrowth when I just need a solid, multipurpose Physical wall, and rarely does it disappoint.
I'd like to second this nomination. 100/125 Defenses are pretty good and most of its weaknesses come from the special side anyway, with the exception of U-Turn and V-Create (while CB Scizor's U-Turn hurts, it thankfully doesn't OHKO 57.92 - 68.31%). The main draw however is its ability to incapacitate a foe with Sleep Powder or Stun Spore to give another pokemon a chance to get in and cause harm, as well as provide Leech Seed support. Then, of course, there is Regenerator, when played right makes Tangrowth hard to take down and makes it a pretty good pivot: I've personally been digging the Tangrowth/Slowking/Heatran core since they cover one another pretty well (except for Weavile...fuck Weavile).

I wouldn't call it anything more than C-Rank, though, mainly because of that weakness on the special side requiring some good teammates to help it function. Sun teams do it no favors since the most common pokemon (Ninetales, Venusaur, Heatran, Volcarona) can one-shot it with no problem, nor can it take repeated abuse from offensive rain teams (Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T can instantly kill it, no investment Politoed can 2HKO with ice beam, and it takes very heavy damage from Keldeo and Starmie's resisted attacks in the rain). Also it can't do much to steels if you're running HP Ice (it can't do jack shit to Heatran ever) so you have to be very careful about not allowing the enemy any momentum. Don't get me wrong, I like it and think it's a good pokemon, but I don't think it's anything you can just slap on any team and expect it to do well.
 
Honestly, a decent chunk of Venusaur sets look something like Growth/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain/HP Fire or Ice anyway that the coverage isn't too big of an issue. Lilligant's coverage may seem like a big problem but Lilligant can threaten Rain and Sand at the same time. If you look at the set from a couple of RMT's you will see that the main coverage they would run is really just Giga/ HP Fire anyway. Also, that's why there is team support. Lilligant is a Solid C Rank and fits the definition of C very well.
 
Isn't she too fragile against priority? I'm not saying she isn't a C Rank pokemon, but her physical bulk isn't really on par with Venusaur's at all, not by a mile, and she gets hurt harder by U-turn too. I do think it's very interesting that she's sort of decent outside of the sun, which I believe is her most redemptive quality.
 

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Honestly, a decent chunk of Venusaur sets look something like Growth/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain/HP Fire or Ice anyway that the coverage isn't too big of an issue. Lilligant's coverage may seem like a big problem but Lilligant can threaten Rain and Sand at the same time. If you look at the set from a couple of RMT's you will see that the main coverage they would run is really just Giga/ HP Fire anyway. Also, that's why there is team support. Lilligant is a Solid C Rank and fits the definition of C very well.
Coverage has always been an issue for Venusaur. The main thing that sets Venusaur apart from other Chlorophyll sweepers is bulk. Other sweepers have to choose between bulk speed while Venusaur comfortably encompasses both.

Other than Healing Wish, Lilligant is basically worse than Venusaur in every regard. C-tier sounds fine.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

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Honestly, a decent chunk of Venusaur sets look something like Growth/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain/HP Fire or Ice anyway that the coverage isn't too big of an issue. Lilligant's coverage may seem like a big problem but Lilligant can threaten Rain and Sand at the same time. If you look at the set from a couple of RMT's you will see that the main coverage they would run is really just Giga/ HP Fire anyway. Also, that's why there is team support. Lilligant is a Solid C Rank and fits the definition of C very well.
What? Most Venusaur that I see run Sludge Bomb over Sleep Powder. Coverage is something that is actually not an issue for Venusaur, since between HP Fire/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb, there are very few things that Venusaur can't cover. Heatran is one of them, and is very easy to get rid of him with a partnered Dugtrio. I like the fact that Sleep Powder can disable one of Venusaur's counters for the rest of match - even Heatran. However, not running Sludge Bomb = problems against Fire-, and Dragon-types.
 
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