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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Zoroark is C tier IMO. Zoroark does have a niche and does support many teams but does not have the capabilities of other pokemon that are in the B Tier.
  2. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I would hesitate to say that Chandelure is so useless under rain. Specs STAB Shadow Ball coming off base 145 SpAtk is still Specs STAB Shadow Ball coming off base 145 SpAtk. For instance, Tornadus-T is OHKOd after Rocks, period. Keldeo is risking an OHKO with a layer of spikes.

    Hell, 252/252+ Ferrothorn is still OHKOd with Specs Flamethrower in the rain. Fire Blast is a very comfortable 2HKO on Jirachi in the rain. As far as other checks go, 252/252+ Tyranitar is 2HKOd by HP Fighting (does a minimum of 65%) and Heatran is 2HKOd with some prior damage/hazards.

    So yeah. Specs Chandelure is still properly terrifying to face.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    =====
    update
    =====

    Aerodactyl up from D-tier ==> C-tier

    Aero moving to C-tier was something I should have done a while ago. The arguments against Aerodactyl were coming from people (such as myself even) who didn't seriously use Aerodactyl at a competitive level who were against people who DID use Aerdodactyl on a competitive level and actually succeeded with it (it's hard to ignore Lavos' testimony since he used it at WCOP.) The thing about Aerodactyl is that regardless of how the metagame is like, it'll always excel at being a suicide lead, which actually kind of means something in BW2 (which is still fast-paced even with Genesect gone).

    so up it goes!

    As for Zoroark... hmm, having used it semi-religiously on the general ladder, I do think its OU worthy. B-tier is way too high i'm afraid, but C-tier seems like a good fit. It's certainly possible to trick people (once) with Illusion, especially now that Pokemon Showdown has implemented Illusion correctly (and you get to switch your team around before battle when using Zoroark, bonus). If you don't go about using it in a silly way that is (ie not having it disguise as Gliscor or w/e, bringing it out as early as possible instead of saving it lategame, and being smart with your disguises). The thing about Zoroark is that its coverage allows it to fuck up a good portion of OU, but it suffers from its non-existent bulk. Pretty much any STAB or SE move will one shot it, so it's a unforgiving Pokemon to use, if it had like 111 speed it would be a baller. I wouldn't call it bad though, it's fast enough so that you're always guaranteed to get some mileage out of it.

    Any more thoughts on this?

    PS: (I can get rid of this awful avatar tomorrow, :nerd:)
  4. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I'm a pretty avid user of Zoroark in OU, and I must say C-tier is a good fit. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a pretty good Pokemon, but let's look at the C-tier definition:

    Fits into this pretty nicely. It does have crippling flaws that prevents it from consistently executing its strategy (non-existent bulk), and it's even more dependent on the support it receives than it is in UU. Give it that support and it's pretty effective, though.
  5. nygerman

    nygerman

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    1. Aerodactyl is not even out
    2. It has piss poor defense.
    3. It can't set up
    4. None of the pokemon you mentioned will ever switch into aerodactly.
    5. Only thing Aero is good for is suicide lead
    6. Aerodactyl is lucky to even be on the tier
  6. windwolf777

    windwolf777

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    Slightly conflicted

    So be it. Zorro is C. Thank you all for not giving me the response I thought I spoils be greeted with. "Lol scrub", "Lol nuub", etc etc. At least there was a certain about of debate to it. :)
  7. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    aero should be c at the least

    it is the only sr user that can guarantee you to have sr and the other team to not have sr. it also completely kills sun!

    edit @ below

    it also maintains mid-game viability with its ability to outspeed and ohko notable threats like tornadus thundurus +1 dragonite among others
  8. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    No to both those statements.

    1) The only stealth rock use who can also guarantee the opponent does not get up stealth rock is Deoxys-D. All he has to do is Magic Coat a predicted Taunt and boom, suddenly Deo gets up his stealth rocks and Aero doesn't.

    2) Being able to completely kill sun teams is a relatively worthless niche in a tier absolutely dominated by rain.
  9. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I'm surprised that Tangrowth hasn't been added to this list yet, given that we have quite a few niche Pokemon on here already. Whilst I love it to bits and could argue that it's almost good enough for B-tier, I think C-tier would be much less controversial.

    Abysmal Sp. Defense aside, it's an absolute boss when it comes to sponging Physical hits - it's probably the most physically bulky Pokémon in OU in fact. Mono-Grass is actually a decent defensive typing for a physical wall, allowing Tangrowth to check a large variety of threats, including but not limited to Dragonite, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Jirachi (physical), Breloom, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Sharpedo etc. It has enough of a support movepool in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Knock Off to be of good utility, and with Leech Seed in tandem with Regenerator, it just never dies. Unlike other, similar tanks, Tangrowth is also very competent offensively, meaning it isn't easily used as fodder.

    I often find myself coming back to Tangrowth when I just need a solid, multipurpose Physical wall, and rarely does it disappoint.

    On the topic of Aerodactyl - although I claimed it was D-tier material earlier in this thread, upon using it a bit more myself I've changed my mind. I like how it can set up Stealth Rock as reliably as Deoxys-D, without being completely worthless once the hazards are up.

    Chandelure should stay in D-tier though; the metagame is far too unkind to it. It may hit very hard, but it's too slow to make much of an impact, and its vulnerability to hazards is a big letdown. It's pretty much completely outclassed by Heatran offensively and defensively, and I'd argue that Sableye makes a much better spinblocker for sun teams anyway.

    I think Scrafty should also be added to D-tier - this article summarises why. If anything, just as a deterrent for new players using it, as I'm still seeing it quite a bit on the lower half of the ladder, despite it being very mediocre in this metagame. By the same logic, I'm going to suggest Charizard for E-tier as I really have a massive pet hate for when it shows up in an OU battle. Looking at the past months usage statistics, it's used way more than even some of things ranked in B-tier on this list. That shouldn't be the case, and the word needs to get out to newbies that Charizard is terrible, Solar Power or no Solar Power.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Tangrowth and Heatran work pretty well together, in fact I think the only weakness that they don't cover for each other is Fighting.
  11. isr

    isr

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    Chandelure is not a good spinblocker to rely on, and is easily outclassed by the majority of Ghost-types. It can take advantage of it, though. If it is on the battlefield, it can pull pressure on Rapid Spinner in a mid-game. Starmie fails to OHKO with Hydro Pump some variants, or if it forgo this move, can't pass through a Chandelure with 60%+ HP easily. However, you won't choose it to keep your Deoxys-D's entry hazards.

    Because of this I've said that Chandelure rely on sun for a full power and it objective is to make it movement while the opponent switch out. In the paper, it can be strange, but three immunities (with Flash Fire) helps a lot. Also, Politoed or Tyranitar can't switch-in without thinking in receiving great damages by Energy Ball or Hidden Power. Even Shadow Ball is 2HKO to 252/0 Politoed. When you want your Chandelure to do deadly damage to anything with Fire Blast, you will send it while sun is up, very similar to Victini. Like Lord of Bays said, some rain threats (Jirachi, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Gastrodon, Physically based Tentacruel...) are not safely switch-in against Chandelure even under the rain, being OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by the right move.

    I agree with you about the spinblocker, but this is not his real role. With this Speed, it attack the opponente in a switch. However, Chandelure is not outclassed by Heatran offensively, as I've said in a previous post and why. Chandelure have impressive power and fits the definition of C-rank perfectly: "can be effective given the right support, but have crippling flaws that prevent him from consistently executing its strategy".
  12. TeamEmpoleon

    TeamEmpoleon

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    I hardly dislike this list, due to the fact that alot of Pokémons are, in my opinion, underrated.

    First, I`d like to see Alakazam lower in the list. In alot of battles in OU, I just 2HKOd them with my Jolteon.

    I`d love to see Vaporeon getting higher in the list. He is amazing, especially in the rain, and as rain teams are getting more common everyday, this is helpful for Vaporeon. Also, Vaporeon is in my opinion, the best Wish/Protecter.

    Also, I think Infernape should be higher. He is actually the counterpart of Lucario. Infernape doesn`t sweep whole teams; but he is very tough and hard to take down.
  13. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Lets take a look at the description for D-tier again.

    Switching it is a nightmare - yes, it's got three immunities, but they're almost always paired with moves that will hit it Super Effectively, so the risk factor is still huge. You basically have to double switch to get in, or come in on something that can't hurt you. 60/90/90 defenses aren't great, and hazards ensure that it can only switch around so many times. The base 80 Speed is last nail in the coffin really, ensuring that Chandelure is restricted to hit-and-run tactics in this fast paced metagame. Fire/Ghost is a niche typing, but it doesn't bring anything very notable to the table that sun teams require that can't be done already by something else. Chandelure requires hefty amounts of support to have a chance to make an impact, but to be honest the risk isn't really worth the reward.

    It's in a similar boat to things like Honchkrow, for example. Honchkrow has the potential to absolutely decimate most OU teams, but is almost never used in OU simply because it's just so difficult to use effectively. You argue that Chandelure can hit rain 'mons hard with Shadow Ball - that may be so, but more often than not you'll end up in a situation where you have no choice but switch out because you find yourself disadvantaged due to Chandelure's low Speed. It just doesn't have enough bulk to make up for its Speed stat, and being a Fire type hurts it more than it benefits it in the long run. Besides, why bother with Chandelure when you can just use CB Victini and V-create/Bolt Strike everything to death? As Ghosts come, Gengar is far preferable due to actually having a good Speed stat to work with, as well as being much less affected by hazards, plus a Ground immunity.

    Using Chandelure requires a level of prediction that's unnecessary for you to put yourself through in a serious OU battle. It's outclassed in each individual attribute - it's interesting in itself, but there's plenty of other options available that give it serious competition for a teamslot. I did admittedly like the Sub+3 attacks set in BW1, but the pace of the metagame has increased significantly since those days. I think these criteria fit the bill for D-tier placement.

    Of course, once Shadow Tag is released, this will change. However, that discussion is for another time.

  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    There are many wrong things with this post. Jirachi doesn't wall nearly all special attackers. Keldeo, Thundurus-T, offensive Starmie in rain, Specs Politoed, Heatran, Ninetales, and Sheer Force Landorus are all very popular special attackers that Jirachi can't wall. It also can't wall any specially mixed dragon outside of rain. Jirachi doesn't offer S Rank support in any way. If you consider SR, paralyze support and Wish support as the requirement for a poke to make it in S Rank under the support criteria then you are way off. Only one two Pokemon are in S Rank under this criteria, so check the amount of support they provide to better set your limits. As for the versatility part i agree that Jirachi is very versatile, but this alone can't bring anything to the S Rank.

    So all in all, Jirachi isn't an S Rank defensive poke nor an S Rank supporter so it shouldn't be in S rank. Please stop overestimating it.
  15. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
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    Jirachi isn't up there with Terrakion, Deo-D and Politoed. I thought we already came to that conclusion earlier in the thread ?_? A tier suits it perfectly.

    Anyway, I'm here to propose for C rank lilligant. Of those who are willing to stray from the common venusaur and look for other chlorophyll sweepers, lilligant quickly comes to mind as one of the better choices. Its major perk over venusaur is that once the sun goes out from another starter or some random weather move carrying poke, lilligant can still have a shot of sweeping the opposing team. It does pretty well against rain with the abilty to outspeed Torn-T after a QD not to be underestimated, and most other components of standard rain ferrothorn aside being pretty vulnerable to a moveset of QD/ giga drain/ HP [ICE]/ Sleep powder with Life Orb and Modest Nature. Torn-T is cleanly OHKO's w/o rocks at +1, and nearly all of the common water types found are decimated by giga drain. If you manage to save your sleep powder for Ferrothorn, a full sweep without raim being up isn't out of the question. Both sand weather starters also happen to be weak to this beast, and some common components of sand fall into the same boat, further increasing lilligant's diversity. The lack of way to hit steels with this set is a let down, but its utility outside of sun overcomes that short coming and can help differentiate lilligant from venusaur. Its got a small niche on sun, and thats why I feel that there is a spot for lilligant in the C tier
  16. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    Lilligant is cool, but mono-grass and hidden power coverage sucks. HP Fire and Ice leave you walled by Heatran, while HP Rock just is really useful for Volcarona. Also, unlike Venu, who can hit the blobs with EQ, the blobs utterly shut down Lilligant. You probably mentioned that, but just figured I'd give a shorter summary.
  17. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Actually, that's not entirely true. Thanks to Sleep Powder and Giga Drain, Lilligant can boost to +6 and still come out on top in a 1v1 situation against Chansey/Blissey, even if they have Toxic.

    Strongly supporting Lilligant for C-tier. Being able to function in other weathers is such a significant attribute when you consider that sun teams have quite a hard time when they aren't winning the weather war.
  18. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    Fair enough. Solid 2HKO is nothing to laugh at. And yeah, outside of sun Venusaur is worse. It's really do you want more coverage, or something that can function outside of sun but gets walled by Heatran unless you have HP Rock.
  19. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I'd like to second this nomination. 100/125 Defenses are pretty good and most of its weaknesses come from the special side anyway, with the exception of U-Turn and V-Create (while CB Scizor's U-Turn hurts, it thankfully doesn't OHKO 57.92 - 68.31%). The main draw however is its ability to incapacitate a foe with Sleep Powder or Stun Spore to give another pokemon a chance to get in and cause harm, as well as provide Leech Seed support. Then, of course, there is Regenerator, when played right makes Tangrowth hard to take down and makes it a pretty good pivot: I've personally been digging the Tangrowth/Slowking/Heatran core since they cover one another pretty well (except for Weavile...fuck Weavile).

    I wouldn't call it anything more than C-Rank, though, mainly because of that weakness on the special side requiring some good teammates to help it function. Sun teams do it no favors since the most common pokemon (Ninetales, Venusaur, Heatran, Volcarona) can one-shot it with no problem, nor can it take repeated abuse from offensive rain teams (Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T can instantly kill it, no investment Politoed can 2HKO with ice beam, and it takes very heavy damage from Keldeo and Starmie's resisted attacks in the rain). Also it can't do much to steels if you're running HP Ice (it can't do jack shit to Heatran ever) so you have to be very careful about not allowing the enemy any momentum. Don't get me wrong, I like it and think it's a good pokemon, but I don't think it's anything you can just slap on any team and expect it to do well.
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  20. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Honestly, a decent chunk of Venusaur sets look something like Growth/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain/HP Fire or Ice anyway that the coverage isn't too big of an issue. Lilligant's coverage may seem like a big problem but Lilligant can threaten Rain and Sand at the same time. If you look at the set from a couple of RMT's you will see that the main coverage they would run is really just Giga/ HP Fire anyway. Also, that's why there is team support. Lilligant is a Solid C Rank and fits the definition of C very well.
  21. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Isn't she too fragile against priority? I'm not saying she isn't a C Rank pokemon, but her physical bulk isn't really on par with Venusaur's at all, not by a mile, and she gets hurt harder by U-turn too. I do think it's very interesting that she's sort of decent outside of the sun, which I believe is her most redemptive quality.
    Magcargo likes this.
  22. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    The smogon on-site EV spread has enough bulk to survive Jolly Mamo Ice Shards. If surviving SE priority moves is being fragile against priority, I don't know what isn't.
  23. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    You're right, that's bulky enough, for whatever reason I thought she would'd be dead after rocks.
  24. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Coverage has always been an issue for Venusaur. The main thing that sets Venusaur apart from other Chlorophyll sweepers is bulk. Other sweepers have to choose between bulk speed while Venusaur comfortably encompasses both.

    Other than Healing Wish, Lilligant is basically worse than Venusaur in every regard. C-tier sounds fine.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    What? Most Venusaur that I see run Sludge Bomb over Sleep Powder. Coverage is something that is actually not an issue for Venusaur, since between HP Fire/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb, there are very few things that Venusaur can't cover. Heatran is one of them, and is very easy to get rid of him with a partnered Dugtrio. I like the fact that Sleep Powder can disable one of Venusaur's counters for the rest of match - even Heatran. However, not running Sludge Bomb = problems against Fire-, and Dragon-types.
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