The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. DrNeoCortex

    DrNeoCortex

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    I think this may be kind of random, and I apologize in advance if this has been covered already, but it bothers me that Stoutland isn't even on this list. He deserves at least C or B because he's really fast under sandstorm and is just powerful enough to abuse the speed. He has useful niche in OU and definitely is something to watch for.
  2. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    492
    The on-site analysis generally recommends running Roost to offset Life Orb recoil, but I preferred Earthquake to hit incoming steel-types without lowing Hydreigon's Attack.

    I've never been trying to argue Hydreigon as anything other than a wallbreaker (hence my emphasis on running a Modest nature), but you have a point in your last statement. There's really no point in being a wallbreaker when there are no walls to break anymore.
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,316
    Lol wow, you're right, DrNeoCortex :o Stoutland should definitely join the ranks of Venusaur - double speed in Sand is almost unfair! HippoLand has been around for quite some time now, with users such as Gamestar and The Great Mighty Doom popularizing it with their respective RMTs.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,996
    CB Breloom, all out attacker Breloom, and Leech Seed Breloom all can defeat common checks and counters to other sets. Gengar, Xatu, Gliscor (which is a shitty check anyway), Torn-T, Lati@s, and Dnite, all common switch-ins to Breloom after Sleep Clause has been activated, can be defeated by the appropriate set, which leaves only Celebi as a true counter to Breloom.

    Scarf Breloom is almost never seen so i won't count for it. But i really fail to get how you can say that sweeping better is all that matters when out of all the sets you listed only the SD set aims to sweep. And no they don't have many checks in common. In fact this is the point of using CB in the first place, to lure common switch-ins to Breloom and destroy them. As you said the least valuable member will be put to sleep, but this is still a loss and counts as losing a Pokemon. As for Breloom being slow and frail, i agree, but it still can get plenty set-up opportunities due to all its threatening traits. It can either Spore a slower mon, force out a faster mon with Mach Punch, or take a hit from a faster mon and then use Spore.

    Breloom is not pretty much only a sweeper. You are talking about SD Breloom, which is not its only set. CB or all out attacker Breloom, SubPunch and finally Leech Seed Breloom are not sweepers, they are wallbreakers and annoyers. Just because SD Breloom is the most popular set doesn't mean i should only talk about it.

    Breloom doesn't get around its counters? Oh really? Then why can CB Breloom beat Xatu, Dragonite, Latias, and Sleep Talk Torn-T, pokes that usually counter it (some of them after Sleep Clause)? Why does the Leech Seed set easily build residual damage on would be counters, beating them in the long run, or allowing to your other Pokemon free switches? Or why the whole game turns around when you send your death fodder in Breloom, in order to bring in your revenge kiler safely after it dies, when what you were expecting to be an SD Breloom turns out to be a SubPunch set, meanin the Breloom gets a sub on the switch, kills the death fodder and then proceeds to fuck you up?

    Finally you are right that Breloom's flaw lies to his low bulk and speed, which sometimes makes it tricky to bring in, but still i believe that he finds plenty set-up opportunities. Be it against a slower poke that he can Spore and then set-up, against a faster poke that he can force out with Mach Punch, or against a faster poke that cannot OHKO it, Breloom will find the set-up opportunity it needs to get started. And once it gets started it will be very dangerous if played right. Simply the fact that against offensive teams Breloom can cripple pretty much two Pokemon guaranteed makes it really good (one with Spore and the second with Fight Gem +2 Mach Punch which almost kills even frail fighting resists that offensive teams carry). Yeah full counters exist, Xatu and Celebi mainly, but let's not forget that Breloom is half the reason that Xatu is seeing the light of OU, and the other half reason is a potential suspect, Deo-D.

    -----------------------

    People should really use Hydreigon more, it is disturbing how many here don't have a clue about it. Some say that Latios is a better wallbreaker, some say that Latios is stronger, and some others that Superpower doesn't really help Hydreigon do anything else except from beating Ttar. Hydreigon is a far better wallbreaker than Latios, because it can 2HKO the whole tier, with zero exceptions. Yeah even Chansey if you are smart and you EV it right. Hydreigon is stronger than Latios in practice because it can afford to use a Modest nature while Latios can't. If you use a Modest nature on Latios then you are doing something wrong, which means that Modest Latios is non existent in practice. Finally Superpower is super useful and allows Hydreigon to deal with Ttar, Blissey, Chansey, and Heatran.

    Actually Stoutland has been discussed before, and the general consensus was that while it is good, it is somewhat outclassed by Scarf Landorus as a revenge killer for Sand teams, which is the reason why he deserves to be in C Rank. Before anyone jumps in, i said somewhat, not completely, which means that usually Landorus will be the best choice, but Stoutland has its uses as well.
  5. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    329
    ^C rank seems good but it currently isn't on the list anywhere.
  6. Ninetale3

    Ninetale3

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    154
    I would like to suggest rotom c for c or d rank.

    Simply put rotom c is probably one of the most terrifying pokemon a rain team can fight. It's stabs alone can take out a third of rain teams if played correctly and only walled by there scizor or forretress to some extent on a scarf set. Rotom c's hidden powers also contribute to how well it does allowing it to take on dragons if they aren't at +1 atk and landorus all the better or take care of the mentioned steels easier as well as a clean kill on abomasnow if it is willing to take a hefty toll if abomasnow packs an ice shard on any but a banded set.

    However, Rotom C has some hefty negatives on it such as being dead weight against sun and is troubled a little against drag mag thanks to kyurem b. Rotom C will always lose to a thunderus T without specs since it needs the extra power behind the HP Ice.
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,619
    If you are running Stone Edge then you lose Spore, or Low Sweep, or Mach Punch, which in turn means you struggle with other things. In addition, with CB its easier to predict around you since you lack good coverage. Even with Stone Edge, you still lose to Celebi (which was what I was referring to when I said counters (my fault, I should have spelled it out for you -_- )) Leech Seed doesn't beat counters and I really don't see how Leech Seed is (for example) helping you out against Xatu, and Latias / Tornadus / Celebi which all have recovery? I guess you can Leech Seed them, they force you out and get to nuke something or I guess like umm heal I guess? I don't see how you are beating them but whatever, maybe you and I are playing different levels of players or something, since iv been able to handle LS Loom easily.

    I think you misread my post. Sure, when Breloom is in safely, it has set up opportunities via Spore. However, when I said set up opportunities, what I was implying was Breloom switching in and then setting up, which is sometimes tricky. Its nowhere near impossible, I can set up with it most games, but against heavy offensive teams (ironically the teams you claim its good against) its hard to switch in, eat a hit, eat a second hit, spore, (or something). Heavy Offensive teams usually lack pokemon slower than Loom which hurts you somewhat.

    My death fodder outspeeds and breaks your sub, you are forced to kill, then I bring in my revenge killer and it doesn't get to fuck me up :)
  8. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,142
    I apologize for the avatar, blame Genesect & TFC.

    =====
    update
    =====

    Stoutland added to B-tier
    Scizor up from B-tier A-tier

    It's about time I added Stoutland to the tier list. It's really good in BW OU2, possibly even A-tier, though I think for now placing it in B-tier is a good idea. With Genesect gone, there's a huge incentive to use Scizor again, so moving it up to A-tier was a no-brainer.

    Some food for thought: With Genesect banned should defensive Pokemon like Blissey / Chansey move up? I think that stall is pretty viable now.
  9. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    486
    Blissey/Chansey should move up to A Rank. They're both really good at keeping Special attackers at bay, except for Keldeo (who I would argue as S Rank, but I'm not certain if I should just yet). Some Special attackers still have ways of circumventing Blissey/Chansey, so they're by no means S Rank Pokemon. However, they can wall a majority of the game since few Special Attackers actually possess Psyshock and Secret Sword.
  10. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    I wouldn't say A rank, but B rank for sure. Both blobs are pretty good support pokes, but they do have their faults. The big bad special attackers in this meta have a way to hit them where it hurts; Tornadus-T and Hydreigon can Superpower while the latis can Psyshock. Unlike Blissey, Chansey can tank these attacks; but getting her in repeatedly means she will have to eventually give the opponent a free turn to heal up because entry hazard damage racks up fast when you don't have leftovers.

    They also suffer from 4MSS pretty badly, since Softboiled, Seismic Toss and either T-wave or Toxic are pretty much mandatory nowadays. If you want to use Wish, you have to use Protect too; which is a shame because both blobs get SR and the oh-so-rare and amazing Aromatherapy.
  11. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,275
    its actually pretty common to use both softboiled and wish so you can drop protect nowadays especially on chansey.

    I have also never felt that aromatherapy is that great since you barely need it because chansey/blissey already have natural cure to absorb status for the team, but i am by not a good stall player so i might have a wrong impression.
  12. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    I meant protect in place of Softboiled, not on an additional moveslot. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

    And even then, I still thing Protect is a better option. It lets you scout for rogue superpowers or similar while providing similar recovery in tandem with Wish.

    Aromatherapy is very useful, especially on any weather-based stall. If your inducer gets burned or poisoned, that's 6-12% health + entry hazards lost upon switching in, those moves are pretty common nowadays. Removing their status condition allows you to keem switching them in for twice as long.
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,316
    Chansey and Blissey's usage wasn't affected by Genesect, imo. In fact Genesect was easy to play against for stall since RP variants are hard-walled by Chansey / Blissey, while the pivot variants are easily worn out by hazards. If anything, the increased usage of Scizor would be annoying for those two.

    What really affected the usage of those two special walls are probably the new BW2 addition of power-hitters, namely Sheer Force Landorus, NP Thundurus, mixed Tornadus-T, and Keldeo (not to mention the recent unbanning of Kyurem-B), all of which can power through Blissey / Chansey.
  14. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,033
    I'd like to highlight this guy, who I used way back in DW BW1. You comfortably 2HKO 4/252 Blissey with Focus Blast and a bit of prior damage or a layer or two of hazards. That is huge for a special attacker without a defense-targeting move (a la Psyshock/strike/Secret Sword). Physically defensive Bronzong is 2HKOd, and physically defensive Skarmory, probably physical Landorus' biggest stop outside of Gravity, is straight-up OHKOd with Rocks.

    What with Genesect's ban, I plan on making a new team with either Rock Polish Sheer Force or Gravity Sheer Force. Why Gravity? Because fuck you, that's why. I love Gravity, we need an item to increase its length or a Pokémon that induces permanent Gravity.
  15. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,262
    I'd say the pink blobs are surefire B-Rank. They still hold on today as stellar special walls and have a great movepool. Reliable recovery is a really neat aspect in their favor, and they can support the team with Aromatherapy, T-Wave, and Stealth Rock. They can take onslaughts from the likes of many special attackers not named Keldeo, who itself is already amazing, no arguments. It's a shame that they have 4MSS and can't take a physical hit, but they're awesome team supporters and special walls. B-Rank.

    EDIT: Off topic, but lol,, is Vaporeon even useful anymore?
  16. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,286
    Yes he is pretty decent in OU, but it mostly depends on how you use it. Normally, Vaporeon is pretty stale. He has great HP and is a really nice Wish passer, however Blissey, Chansey, and Jirachi fulfill this role better with their better typing and such. I usually prefer Jellicent over Vaporeon on a non weather team any day, however there's one thing that makes Vaporeon an outstanding wall. Hydration. With this ability, he has the ability to heal himself to full health with Rest without sacrificing turns he would normally be asleep. His supporting move pool is what makes this even better, and he can work great on offensive and even Rain stall because of his ability to heal to full and instantly, while having access to Toxic, Protect, Acid Armor, and Roar. One other thing that Vaporeon has seemed to have a decent niche in, is Baton Pass teams. With access to Acid Armor, he can pass a +2 defense to any of the team members, making them very bulky physically.

    So to answer your question, yes he has a few niches in OU, however he can't really do too much outside of rain and Baton Passing teams. I think his C-Ranking fits him just fine.
  17. FrostFire

    FrostFire
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    177
    I was really surprised when I read this; I thought that it must be wrong, but turns out that LO Sheer Force Landorus does a ton of damage to 4 HP/ 252 SDef Bold Blissey.

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%)

    You have only have a 1.95% chance to 2HKO after SR, but if you have one layer of Spikes as well that becomes a 95.7% chance to 2HKO. Of course, if you don't have multiple layers of hazards up then SF Landorus-I will still struggle to get past Bliss (not to mention relying on Focus Blast really really sucks), but the fact that a Special attacker can do that much to Blissey without a boost is pretty incredible.
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,033
    Okay, you ran a neutral nature in your calc, that's why it came out to a bit less than mine did.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 4HP/252SpDef Blissey (Neutral): 43% - 51% (286 - 338 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO.

    I ran a Modest Rock Polish set and as you can see, the power is just incredible.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,996
    Yeah when running Stone Edge you forfeit Spore, but you still get a very potent wallbreaker with super strong priority. Simply the threat of Spore is enough to force switches and make your opponent sacrifice their least valuable team member. Yeah it is easier to predict around the CB set, but this is true for every CB user out there (except from Kyu-B maybe, which isn't such a good CB user anyway) and isn't a point against Breloom. And yeah Celebi is the only surefire counter to Breloom, but most pokemons have counters too, so i don't see why this makes Breloom any less threatening. Hell Terrakion is countered by Hippowdon but it still is in S rank. If you want Celebi out of the way run BandTar or weaken it with Keldeo or something, that's what teammates are for. Leech Seed coupled with Protect, SR and possibly sand damage racks up damage against Breloom's checks and counters very fast, especially those without recovery. True Celebi, Latias, and Torn-T have reliable recovery, but Latios, Dragonite, and Gengar often lack it. My point is that different Breloom sets require different handling, except from universal counters, mainly Celebi, and even when you know Brelooms's set it can still do great damage to your team. I don't know maybe i am exaggerating a bit and Breloom is high A Rank, but i could see it being placed in S Rank.

    You don't have to switch in. Get in after something dies or just lead with it. All you have to do is survive one hit and then you can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore and cripple or kill another one with a +2 Fight Gem Mach Punch. Oh and Fight Gem Breloom runs HP and SpD EVs which means that it can usually find the set-up opportunity that it needs.

    Your death fodder could be slower though (any defensive Pokemon basically) :D

    EDIT: BurningMan i didn't forget about it, you can either kill with Seed Bomb or put to sleep with Spore, and either is fine. No matter what slower Pokemon comes in, as long as you can kill it with your STABs, you will come out of the situation with a Sub up.
  20. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,275
    you forgot about focus punch negative priority so this can only work by something that is KO'ed by seed bomb.
  21. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    319
    Like Pocket said, Genesect did not hurt stall one bit. I loved seeing Genesect when I was playing stall because it was one less thing for my team to worry about. Chansey walled it to hell and back, as did Jirachi in rain. Landorus was much more terrifying, since it outspeeds a whole stall team without even having to set up, and you have to keep Chansey very healthy. Keldeo also did crazy work and forces defensive teams to run Celebi/Tentacruel/Amoonguss. Terrakion is as scary as ever.

    So, for someone who likes stall, Genesect's ban was a bad thing, because it means that the other overpowered attackers will just be used more, and stall will have to deal with one more Keldeo/NP Thunderus/CB Terrakion/Tornadus(-T)/DD Dragonite on every team.
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,619
    Alexwolf man you bring up good points, but I keep seeing, 'if it has spore then its coutnered by x but Stone Edge OHKOs x OMG"

    Its cliche but remember that Breloom cannot run Sub / Leech Seed / Seed Bomb / Focus Punch / Stone Edge / Swords Dance / Spore / Bullet Seed / Mach Punch. If it loses Spore its not getting those "free kills" you bring up, and if you use Stone Edge, you are prolly using a Choice Set which lacks spore, and can be predicted around without too much difficulty. The original argument was that Breloom has a lot of counters, and unlike Terrakion it really lacks a way to get past them. Stone Edge works but again, you lack Spore, and prolly get your item choice locked into Choice Band.

    On Leech Seed

    You are missing the point, Leech Seed is bulky and annoying as fuck but its not anywhere near as threatening since it lacks Tech + SD + priority. Sure, it *might* be able to gradually beat Dragonite but who cares, with your lack of coverage I bet I can find more.

    I think its top tier A rank, you think its S rank, neither of us are convincing the other so lets put this issue to rest and move on.
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,996
    Yeah Ginga we said everything there is to say...

    On the matter of Chansey and Blissey i agree that they should be put in B Rank as they are the best special walls in the tier, and even if they somewhat struggle to wall everything in the special side they are the best at what they do.
  24. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    771
    Don't really agree with Stoutland in B-rank...I get that this is not about comparisons, but let's forget that and compare it with Venusaur. It's unable to boost, it's predictable, it's frail (weakness to Mach Punch, which is the bane of high speed mons, plus neutrality to everything else), and it's extremely limited in item choices (I always see band, maybe LO can work but that will cut even shorter its life span and make priority revenge killing a breeze). Venusaur has diverse movesets, resistances to some common attacking types, can recover lost health, can easily get to +2 in its own weather. Not saying that Stoutland is bad (I even played and appreciated quite a bit TGMD's team), but I still see it as a niche poke that's best suited for C-rank.
  25. yee

    yee
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,107
    HippoLand teams have been established for so long in BW I'd call C tier a conservative estimate, but the thing that needs to change here is Tornadus-T going to S-Tier. I doubt anyone would debate it is the single best rain abuser and even the least liberal tiering guys I know (bar one) believe it's a clear uber.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)