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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    The only thing you will be hitting with Taunt that's faster than Terrakion is Azelf, and that alone is hardly worth C-Tier. Terrakion can beat a hell of alot more 1 v 1 than Aerodactyl, which usually just sets up Rocks, and then dies.
  2. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I'm going to repeat my proposal that Cloyster should be in C-tier. There's just nothing too amazing about it that would justify a place in B-tier with other, more effective sweepers - even after a Shell Smash it doesn't quite hit hard enough to break through the common bulky Waters/Steels, and isn't fast enough to avoid being revenge killed by most Scarfers. It's also extremely difficult to set up as almost all Special attacks will OHKO it, and even some Physical attacks will do a ton after a Defense drop. It may be quite high in the usage statistics, but remember that it's very popular lower down in the ladder. I almost never see Cloyster used by any of the top ladder players - there's bound to be reasoning for that. However, one Cloyster set that does have great potential, that sadly no one uses, is mixed LO with Naive nature. It's fast enough to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, can easily OHKO defensive Steels with a rain boosted Hydro Pump and hits harder in general thanks to Life Orb.

    If anyone has a solid argument for Cloyster's placement in B-tier, then I'd be delighted to hear it. Otherwise, I stand by my notion that it just isn't dominant enough to get a place in B-tier.
  3. windwolf777

    windwolf777

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    I wish to vote zoroark for B rank. He can not sweep a vast majority of the meta as required in S and A, he requires some support (he prefers no hazards to give the disguise up), and maybe fighting types removed, and good "partners" and "disguises", however, he has a solid niche. He can act as a ninja and assassinate certain threats. For example, if he runs a physical set he can bluff as a special attacker, and either kill or severely injure blissey. And if running a mixed set he could do the same to skarm. So in my opinion, although not even OU, I have used him and I know what he is capable of
  4. isr

    isr

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    Hi!

    Okay, I really think that Chandelure doesn't deserve the D rank. It's a extreme powerfull wallbreaker and basically nothing can safely switch-in in a sun-boosted Fire Blast from the Specs set. It need to be C-rank or B-rank, but I would say about moving it to the C-rank first. Here's the definition of the C rank:

    "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support..."
    Chandelure really needs a Rapid Spinner, thanks to it SR weakness, while sun from Ninetales is also needed to it's full power, much like others Sun threats. Stealth Rock is very appreciated, as with it he will beat walls like Blissey. I think that it isn't reason to make it D tier, as others Pokémon like Venusaur also needs it.

    "...but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy..."
    The SR weakness and below average speed are it's worse flaws, as with it Chandelure can't go much further.

    "...or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."
    It IS NOT outclassed by Heatran for the Specs set. Chandelure can pass through Pokémon like Lati@s, TTar (SpecsTran only 2HKO with the very uncommon Flash Cannon) and Politoed much more easily. Heatran is neutral to SR, is bulkier and even have great resistances, but Chandelure have it advantages too: spinblocker, Fighting imunnity, better Speed, greater secondary STAB, and much more sheer force. Heatran may have Eruption, but can't use it effectively as is nature locked and will need to slash off a coverage move. Chandelure also have Energy Ball, while Heatran need to rely on Solarbeam or a weaker version in Hidden Power.

    Chandelure acts like Choice Band Victini. Hit as hard you can while the opponent switch out! Thanks to its three imunnities (including Flash Fire), specially for very dangerous types, it can do it very well. Here some calcs of it sheer force under the sun:


    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in sun: 208-246 (57.14 - 67.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in sun: 242-285 (80.13 - 94.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 190-224 (49.35 - 58.18%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO; guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 306-361 (46.93 - 55.36%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO; guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (with Leftovers)

    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 264-312 (65.34 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 312-368 (81.25 - 95.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in sun: 131-154 (40.55 - 47.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (80.8 - 95.35% w/o Multiscale)

    Of course it can use Shadow Ball to Lati@s, but as Fire Blast hit they so hard, you won't need to rely on a predict that can sacrifice the match. It sheer force is also very good in a weather war, as it can do heavy damage to any weather inducer that try to remove it precious sunny day. Also, Dragon-types can't switch-in on Chandelure front under the sun: Dragonite is OHKO'd with SR (Parashuffler is 2HKO'd), while Haxorus and Salamence don't even need SR, and Kingdra is 2HKO'd! To have some idea, Choice Specs Heatran's Overheat do 59% max. and can't 2HKO under the sun.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra in sun: 147-173 (50.51 - 59.45%) -- 3HKO with Special Attack drop!

    Chandelure can use Substitute (or SubSplit), as it's also very good. However, Choice Specs is the best one as it do a great amount of damage on switch-ins. And don't say about the Choice Scarf set, please, it really sux. Thanks to it, I would like to suggest Chandelure for C-rank.
  5. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
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    I'd definitely agree in saying that Zoroark does have a certain niche in OU, but I really do not think it is B-Tier. While it can perform a role that no other Pokemon can, the support required to make it consistently work outweighs the actual benefits. Upon team preview, your opponent already knows you have a Zoroark, making it even that much harder to make it work. Any competent player can will notice when an ability does not activate, or notice the extra hazard damage upon switching in, and I'd argue that the whole appeal of using Zoroark kind of fades away upon team preview. It can also be pretty easy to play around, especially as a lot of people I see using Zoroark switch it in while it is still revealed to seem like that it is countered (Zoroark disguised as Gliscor, switches into Skarm). It's pretty obvious that a Flamethrower is going to come your way, and I just think it is far too inconsistent. I went through the liberty of testing Zoroark pretty recently actually, and the results were very disappointing. 9/10 people will know when it is coming in, and when you take that away from Zoroark, you're left with a pretty sub par, relatively slow Special Attacker which is outclassed by other Special Attackers in the higher ranks.

    I'm not debating Zoroark's effectiveness. If you have consistently good results with it, then feel free to disregard my comments. But I feel like it's one of those Pokemon that is very hit or miss. It's also worth mentioning that it's pretty weak to hazards, very frail and I honestly have never seen it been used successfully.

    I'd agree with this, Chandelure is a pretty underrated Pokemon, especially in terms of how powerful it is and how good it can be for spinblocking purposes for offensive teams. If Victini is C-Tier, then I'd argue that Chandelure would also fit well in C-Tier, especially considering the two function very similarly, just on different sides of the physical / special spectrum. But yeah, it hits super hard and it's pretty hard to switch into if you don't have a dedicated answer for it.

    Leading on from this, I'd argue that Victini is B-Tier. Like I said before, Chandelure and Victini perform similar roles, hitting real hard. I think Victini is a little more effective than Chandelure though, having access to U-Turn and Bolt Strike meaning it can break through bulky waters. Victini also has better bulk and a higher base Speed, more than making up for the lower offensive stats in comparison with Chandelure. There are a lot of things that Victini outspeeds that Chandelure doesn't such as Mamoswine, Lucario, Gliscor and Kyurem. I think the main thing separating the two however is that Victini doesn't necessarily need to run a Choice set to be effective. V-Create on it's own sets Victini apart from every other Pokemon in the game, as Victini will always have that ability to literally 2HKO everything at will, while still being able to switch up moves, meaning Victini can have a better time sweeping, and if not sweeping, certainly taking out 2 or 3 Pokemon while doing so. I'd say that Victini is the best Physical Fire type in OU, despite not even being an OU Pokemon. I think that in itself is enough to move it up from C-Tier to B-Tier.
  6. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    I don't see how Chandelure is a great Spin-blocker, when every decent spinner in OU bar Forretress kills it on the switch without hazards. And if rocks are up, it can't even switch into that.
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Chandelure only has one good stat and everything else working against it. Why do I need a counter for Lure when the Rain is up and the only Pokemon it can really do anything to is Ferrothorn? (And sadly Ferrothorn can still break its subs with Gyro Ball and Power Whip, so the player doesn't have to give you any momentum if they don't want to.) If I'm Sand and running Tyrannitar, it'll probably be really hard to get even one kill. Sun, granted, has problems dealing with Lure, but one out of three common weathers is not a good bet. Those lovely calcs conveniently assume that Chandelure will always be on the offensive, which is hard to do with such low speed and nothing much to abate it.

    Chandelure would have probably been C-tier early in BW1, but Drizzle just about dwarfs the effectiveness of offensive Fire types outside of Sun, especially with Chandelure's already ubiquitous weaknesses (hazards, Ttar, any sweeper at all). Even C-tier wallbreakers give it stiff competition (Victini, Haxorus, Infernape).
  8. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Zoroark is C tier IMO. Zoroark does have a niche and does support many teams but does not have the capabilities of other pokemon that are in the B Tier.
  9. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I would hesitate to say that Chandelure is so useless under rain. Specs STAB Shadow Ball coming off base 145 SpAtk is still Specs STAB Shadow Ball coming off base 145 SpAtk. For instance, Tornadus-T is OHKOd after Rocks, period. Keldeo is risking an OHKO with a layer of spikes.

    Hell, 252/252+ Ferrothorn is still OHKOd with Specs Flamethrower in the rain. Fire Blast is a very comfortable 2HKO on Jirachi in the rain. As far as other checks go, 252/252+ Tyranitar is 2HKOd by HP Fighting (does a minimum of 65%) and Heatran is 2HKOd with some prior damage/hazards.

    So yeah. Specs Chandelure is still properly terrifying to face.
  10. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    =====
    update
    =====

    Aerodactyl up from D-tier ==> C-tier

    Aero moving to C-tier was something I should have done a while ago. The arguments against Aerodactyl were coming from people (such as myself even) who didn't seriously use Aerodactyl at a competitive level who were against people who DID use Aerdodactyl on a competitive level and actually succeeded with it (it's hard to ignore Lavos' testimony since he used it at WCOP.) The thing about Aerodactyl is that regardless of how the metagame is like, it'll always excel at being a suicide lead, which actually kind of means something in BW2 (which is still fast-paced even with Genesect gone).

    so up it goes!

    As for Zoroark... hmm, having used it semi-religiously on the general ladder, I do think its OU worthy. B-tier is way too high i'm afraid, but C-tier seems like a good fit. It's certainly possible to trick people (once) with Illusion, especially now that Pokemon Showdown has implemented Illusion correctly (and you get to switch your team around before battle when using Zoroark, bonus). If you don't go about using it in a silly way that is (ie not having it disguise as Gliscor or w/e, bringing it out as early as possible instead of saving it lategame, and being smart with your disguises). The thing about Zoroark is that its coverage allows it to fuck up a good portion of OU, but it suffers from its non-existent bulk. Pretty much any STAB or SE move will one shot it, so it's a unforgiving Pokemon to use, if it had like 111 speed it would be a baller. I wouldn't call it bad though, it's fast enough so that you're always guaranteed to get some mileage out of it.

    Any more thoughts on this?

    PS: (I can get rid of this awful avatar tomorrow, :nerd:)
  11. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    I'm a pretty avid user of Zoroark in OU, and I must say C-tier is a good fit. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a pretty good Pokemon, but let's look at the C-tier definition:

    Fits into this pretty nicely. It does have crippling flaws that prevents it from consistently executing its strategy (non-existent bulk), and it's even more dependent on the support it receives than it is in UU. Give it that support and it's pretty effective, though.
  12. nygerman

    nygerman

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    1. Aerodactyl is not even out
    2. It has piss poor defense.
    3. It can't set up
    4. None of the pokemon you mentioned will ever switch into aerodactly.
    5. Only thing Aero is good for is suicide lead
    6. Aerodactyl is lucky to even be on the tier
  13. windwolf777

    windwolf777

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    Slightly conflicted

    So be it. Zorro is C. Thank you all for not giving me the response I thought I spoils be greeted with. "Lol scrub", "Lol nuub", etc etc. At least there was a certain about of debate to it. :)
  14. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    aero should be c at the least

    it is the only sr user that can guarantee you to have sr and the other team to not have sr. it also completely kills sun!

    edit @ below

    it also maintains mid-game viability with its ability to outspeed and ohko notable threats like tornadus thundurus +1 dragonite among others
  15. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    No to both those statements.

    1) The only stealth rock use who can also guarantee the opponent does not get up stealth rock is Deoxys-D. All he has to do is Magic Coat a predicted Taunt and boom, suddenly Deo gets up his stealth rocks and Aero doesn't.

    2) Being able to completely kill sun teams is a relatively worthless niche in a tier absolutely dominated by rain.
  16. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I'm surprised that Tangrowth hasn't been added to this list yet, given that we have quite a few niche Pokemon on here already. Whilst I love it to bits and could argue that it's almost good enough for B-tier, I think C-tier would be much less controversial.

    Abysmal Sp. Defense aside, it's an absolute boss when it comes to sponging Physical hits - it's probably the most physically bulky Pokémon in OU in fact. Mono-Grass is actually a decent defensive typing for a physical wall, allowing Tangrowth to check a large variety of threats, including but not limited to Dragonite, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Jirachi (physical), Breloom, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Sharpedo etc. It has enough of a support movepool in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Knock Off to be of good utility, and with Leech Seed in tandem with Regenerator, it just never dies. Unlike other, similar tanks, Tangrowth is also very competent offensively, meaning it isn't easily used as fodder.

    I often find myself coming back to Tangrowth when I just need a solid, multipurpose Physical wall, and rarely does it disappoint.

    On the topic of Aerodactyl - although I claimed it was D-tier material earlier in this thread, upon using it a bit more myself I've changed my mind. I like how it can set up Stealth Rock as reliably as Deoxys-D, without being completely worthless once the hazards are up.

    Chandelure should stay in D-tier though; the metagame is far too unkind to it. It may hit very hard, but it's too slow to make much of an impact, and its vulnerability to hazards is a big letdown. It's pretty much completely outclassed by Heatran offensively and defensively, and I'd argue that Sableye makes a much better spinblocker for sun teams anyway.

    I think Scrafty should also be added to D-tier - this article summarises why. If anything, just as a deterrent for new players using it, as I'm still seeing it quite a bit on the lower half of the ladder, despite it being very mediocre in this metagame. By the same logic, I'm going to suggest Charizard for E-tier as I really have a massive pet hate for when it shows up in an OU battle. Looking at the past months usage statistics, it's used way more than even some of things ranked in B-tier on this list. That shouldn't be the case, and the word needs to get out to newbies that Charizard is terrible, Solar Power or no Solar Power.
  17. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Tangrowth and Heatran work pretty well together, in fact I think the only weakness that they don't cover for each other is Fighting.
  18. isr

    isr

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    Chandelure is not a good spinblocker to rely on, and is easily outclassed by the majority of Ghost-types. It can take advantage of it, though. If it is on the battlefield, it can pull pressure on Rapid Spinner in a mid-game. Starmie fails to OHKO with Hydro Pump some variants, or if it forgo this move, can't pass through a Chandelure with 60%+ HP easily. However, you won't choose it to keep your Deoxys-D's entry hazards.

    Because of this I've said that Chandelure rely on sun for a full power and it objective is to make it movement while the opponent switch out. In the paper, it can be strange, but three immunities (with Flash Fire) helps a lot. Also, Politoed or Tyranitar can't switch-in without thinking in receiving great damages by Energy Ball or Hidden Power. Even Shadow Ball is 2HKO to 252/0 Politoed. When you want your Chandelure to do deadly damage to anything with Fire Blast, you will send it while sun is up, very similar to Victini. Like Lord of Bays said, some rain threats (Jirachi, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Gastrodon, Physically based Tentacruel...) are not safely switch-in against Chandelure even under the rain, being OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by the right move.

    I agree with you about the spinblocker, but this is not his real role. With this Speed, it attack the opponente in a switch. However, Chandelure is not outclassed by Heatran offensively, as I've said in a previous post and why. Chandelure have impressive power and fits the definition of C-rank perfectly: "can be effective given the right support, but have crippling flaws that prevent him from consistently executing its strategy".
  19. TeamEmpoleon

    TeamEmpoleon

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    I hardly dislike this list, due to the fact that alot of Pokémons are, in my opinion, underrated.

    First, I`d like to see Alakazam lower in the list. In alot of battles in OU, I just 2HKOd them with my Jolteon.

    I`d love to see Vaporeon getting higher in the list. He is amazing, especially in the rain, and as rain teams are getting more common everyday, this is helpful for Vaporeon. Also, Vaporeon is in my opinion, the best Wish/Protecter.

    Also, I think Infernape should be higher. He is actually the counterpart of Lucario. Infernape doesn`t sweep whole teams; but he is very tough and hard to take down.
  20. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Lets take a look at the description for D-tier again.

    Switching it is a nightmare - yes, it's got three immunities, but they're almost always paired with moves that will hit it Super Effectively, so the risk factor is still huge. You basically have to double switch to get in, or come in on something that can't hurt you. 60/90/90 defenses aren't great, and hazards ensure that it can only switch around so many times. The base 80 Speed is last nail in the coffin really, ensuring that Chandelure is restricted to hit-and-run tactics in this fast paced metagame. Fire/Ghost is a niche typing, but it doesn't bring anything very notable to the table that sun teams require that can't be done already by something else. Chandelure requires hefty amounts of support to have a chance to make an impact, but to be honest the risk isn't really worth the reward.

    It's in a similar boat to things like Honchkrow, for example. Honchkrow has the potential to absolutely decimate most OU teams, but is almost never used in OU simply because it's just so difficult to use effectively. You argue that Chandelure can hit rain 'mons hard with Shadow Ball - that may be so, but more often than not you'll end up in a situation where you have no choice but switch out because you find yourself disadvantaged due to Chandelure's low Speed. It just doesn't have enough bulk to make up for its Speed stat, and being a Fire type hurts it more than it benefits it in the long run. Besides, why bother with Chandelure when you can just use CB Victini and V-create/Bolt Strike everything to death? As Ghosts come, Gengar is far preferable due to actually having a good Speed stat to work with, as well as being much less affected by hazards, plus a Ground immunity.

    Using Chandelure requires a level of prediction that's unnecessary for you to put yourself through in a serious OU battle. It's outclassed in each individual attribute - it's interesting in itself, but there's plenty of other options available that give it serious competition for a teamslot. I did admittedly like the Sub+3 attacks set in BW1, but the pace of the metagame has increased significantly since those days. I think these criteria fit the bill for D-tier placement.

    Of course, once Shadow Tag is released, this will change. However, that discussion is for another time.

  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    There are many wrong things with this post. Jirachi doesn't wall nearly all special attackers. Keldeo, Thundurus-T, offensive Starmie in rain, Specs Politoed, Heatran, Ninetales, and Sheer Force Landorus are all very popular special attackers that Jirachi can't wall. It also can't wall any specially mixed dragon outside of rain. Jirachi doesn't offer S Rank support in any way. If you consider SR, paralyze support and Wish support as the requirement for a poke to make it in S Rank under the support criteria then you are way off. Only one two Pokemon are in S Rank under this criteria, so check the amount of support they provide to better set your limits. As for the versatility part i agree that Jirachi is very versatile, but this alone can't bring anything to the S Rank.

    So all in all, Jirachi isn't an S Rank defensive poke nor an S Rank supporter so it shouldn't be in S rank. Please stop overestimating it.
  22. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
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    Jirachi isn't up there with Terrakion, Deo-D and Politoed. I thought we already came to that conclusion earlier in the thread ?_? A tier suits it perfectly.

    Anyway, I'm here to propose for C rank lilligant. Of those who are willing to stray from the common venusaur and look for other chlorophyll sweepers, lilligant quickly comes to mind as one of the better choices. Its major perk over venusaur is that once the sun goes out from another starter or some random weather move carrying poke, lilligant can still have a shot of sweeping the opposing team. It does pretty well against rain with the abilty to outspeed Torn-T after a QD not to be underestimated, and most other components of standard rain ferrothorn aside being pretty vulnerable to a moveset of QD/ giga drain/ HP [ICE]/ Sleep powder with Life Orb and Modest Nature. Torn-T is cleanly OHKO's w/o rocks at +1, and nearly all of the common water types found are decimated by giga drain. If you manage to save your sleep powder for Ferrothorn, a full sweep without raim being up isn't out of the question. Both sand weather starters also happen to be weak to this beast, and some common components of sand fall into the same boat, further increasing lilligant's diversity. The lack of way to hit steels with this set is a let down, but its utility outside of sun overcomes that short coming and can help differentiate lilligant from venusaur. Its got a small niche on sun, and thats why I feel that there is a spot for lilligant in the C tier
  23. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    Lilligant is cool, but mono-grass and hidden power coverage sucks. HP Fire and Ice leave you walled by Heatran, while HP Rock just is really useful for Volcarona. Also, unlike Venu, who can hit the blobs with EQ, the blobs utterly shut down Lilligant. You probably mentioned that, but just figured I'd give a shorter summary.
  24. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Actually, that's not entirely true. Thanks to Sleep Powder and Giga Drain, Lilligant can boost to +6 and still come out on top in a 1v1 situation against Chansey/Blissey, even if they have Toxic.

    Strongly supporting Lilligant for C-tier. Being able to function in other weathers is such a significant attribute when you consider that sun teams have quite a hard time when they aren't winning the weather war.
  25. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    Fair enough. Solid 2HKO is nothing to laugh at. And yeah, outside of sun Venusaur is worse. It's really do you want more coverage, or something that can function outside of sun but gets walled by Heatran unless you have HP Rock.
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