Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Its rain reliance is hardly an issue for it. Neither Tyranitar nor Ninetales care to switch in on it, and if they do, Tornadus-T can just safely u-turn back to Politoed since it outspeeds both of them. I'd support moving it to S-Tier, as well.
 
I don't agree with the frame of mind that because Tornadus-T requires rain support, he isn't worthy of S-Rank. First of all, I think Torn-T blows past that argument (heh) entirely simply because no other Pokemon can abuse their weather nearly as well as Torn-T can abuse rain -- nothing even comes close. LO boosted Hurricane coming off of a meaty base 110 SpA and the ability to outspeed all but two relevant threats (Jolteon and Weavile) makes Torn-T an absolute nightmare to face, and it's one of the easiest and most consistent Pokemon to put on any team.

Secondly, requiring rain support isn't a big deal because rain is fucking everywhere. Politoed is easily, easily, the best weather inducer outside of Ubers. It's not like sun or sand where you have to play carefully to conserve your weather -- Politoed wins against all other weathers by itself (although he can't beat Abomasnow without Focus Blast, but I don't count Abomasnow because Abomasnow is just silly). Saying you need rain for Tornadus-T to work is like saying you need a gas peddle in order to drive your car; it's a true statement, but it's so fucking easy to accomplish that it's not even an issue. Tornadus-T for S-Rank.
 

Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
And if it's choiced (which is very easy to see since Tornadus-T can't afford running Expert Belt with its not-so-great attacking stats) both Ninetales and Tyranitar can easily switch on it so I don't know what you're talking about.
You're missing the point. A vast majority of Torndaus-T are not choiced, so that's a relatively niche scenario. And you're missing the point. While it's true that Tyranitar can switch in on a Hurricane and Ninetales could switch in on a U-turn, they can't do anything to it. It's going to outspeed both of them and u-turn back to politoed, putting the sand/sun player at a disadvantage.
 
I agree with Tornadus-T for S-rank. The description itself says "or needs little support." Politoed switching in is not hard at all. Even the scarf set is easy to keep bringing in because it causes so much pressure to the opposing team. I agree with every team needing specially defensive rotom-w, jirachi, and heatran. The fact that specially defensive rotom became it's number 1 set with the advent of BW2 stands as a testament to its power. Don't forget that Rotom has been in/around the top 10 mons since BW.

Furthermore, even if politoed is shut down, I'd say by that time tornadus would have done a majority of its job +95% of the time; as its not just a sweeper, but a wall-breaker and momentum gainer as well. That's 3 jobs you are getting out of one slot on your team. Back to tode dying, even then hurricane's 70% is the same accuracy as focus blast, so it can still fire off those hurricanes regardless of toed dying.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I've even ran HP [Ground] on Tornadus-T occasionally just to screw around with Ninetales some more: with LO it does 41% - 48% to the standard +SDef 252/120 defensive set, which is a guaranteed 2HKO after it takes Stealth Rock damage. It's a bit gimmicky (though it has a chance to 2HKO 252/0 Jirachi), but at least it proves how dangerous switching in on Tornadus-T can be. Even without it, Ninetales should never try to switch in unless in an emergency - if Hurricane hits, it will deal 52% - 62% damage, which combined with Stealth Rock damage will completely cripple Ninetales. 50% accuracy isn't much, but it's hardly worth taking a risk that it will miss.
 

Rhys DeAnno

Slacking Off
So I noticed that Shaymin isn't even on this list. It's pretty much Celebi without a bunch of support moves but with Seed Flare. This is kind of lame, but it also lacks psychic typing which is probably a good thing in most cases. Even though it's worse than Celebi overall, there are various teams that might want to use it as fake Celebi if using real Celebi would be dumb for some reason (or if they feel like wallbreaking with Seed Flare). I'd say C-Tier.
 
Mmight as well bump Tornadus-T to S rank. Sure, Hurricane sets need rain; but in rain, Birdman is the undisputed top dog by a mile, plus maybe five light years.

I can see the argument of Tornadus-T needing rain; if so, we have to have a consensus when it comes to tiering other Pokemon - is Victini C-Rank without sun? Is Venusar B-rank without sun? Victreebel C without sun(bahahaha)? Is Keldeo A-Rank without rain? Is Volcarona B rank without weather?

It's rather obvious that Venusaur is NOT B-rank without sun, nor Victreebel C (LOL). In sun, however, they are both easily S/A/B-ranked Pokemon.

So the question is, are we rounding up or down? If we're rounding up, Tornadus-T is definitely S-Rank. If we're rounding down, the only reason Tornauds-T isn't S-Rank is because there is no rank beyond S.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Torn-T should be S Rank. Terrakion is also an amazing Pokemon, but not by any means broken so I think its fine around A Rank or borderline S Rank. It's usage shot up when someone revealed the sash lead (if only they kept quiet, I could keep abusing SashRak without anyone knowing :c), and its a great offensive mon too.

EDIT: DarkBlazeR, I think Hurricane retains 75% acc. even in sun. I could be wrong, but I think it stays the same.


EDIT2: @PureQuestion: Thanks! I checked Bulbapedia and your right. Any more Question on Hurricane?
 
I say torn-t for S simply because rain is everywhere, and regen gives him the option to scout.
And my main post, I just wanted to say, Mienshao for c. She had her own unique niche in OU, (spamming HJK, Fake Out, and Uturn for the most part), can get passed Gliscor with her decent SpA, outspeeds the new lando, and chomp, abuses LO easily with regen, and visually can ignore hazards (sans tox spikes but those are rare). Yes, fail, and hard pissed to hit ghosts, but that can be covered by teammates. Sooo, yeah, I think C fits it
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
Why is everyone assuming that rain will get suspect? It isn't broken, its just easier to build with (thus the overuse of rain).

I will admit that Torn-T is really metagame centralizing. If your offense team can't tank more than one Hurricane, you're more or less fucked by any rain team. Torn-T might get suspect, but rain isn't broken so yeah.

Torn-T should be S Rank. Terrakion is also an amazing Pokemon, but not by any means broken so I think its fine around A Rank or borderline S Rank. It's usage shot up when someone revealed the sash lead (if only they kept quiet, I could keep abusing SashRak without anyone knowing :c), and its a great offensive mon too.

EDIT: DarkBlazeR, I think Hurricane retains 75% acc. even in sun. I could be wrong, but I think it stays the same.


EDIT2: @PureQuestion: Thanks! I checked Bulbapedia and your right. Any more Question on Hurricane?
On Terrakion, S Rank =/= Broken. Personally I think it's fine in S because it's probably the single most potent physical attacker in OU, with no true counters (Golurk is irrelevant, I don't count it) and foolproof checks few and far between.

Tornadus-T up to S seems reasonable, though. The dominance of Rain obviously contributes to this, but Regenerator makes it even more potent than Tornadus-I ever was. However, this might be pretty debatable since it's incredibly underwhelming when Rain isn't up.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
I would say Politoed, the most used Pokemon in the game right now, qualifies as "little support". Besides, you make it sound like Tornadus-T is only good in Rain, but that completely ignores the merits of said Pokemon. Acrobat is a marvelous set that's great for a surprise, and the Scarf set doesn't even need Hurricane to function either. You also pretend that a 100% accurate STAB move is the only way Torn-T's going to succeed in this metagame. Might I remind you that plenty of Pokemon use Focus Blast, Hurricane's Fighting-type equivalent, and are none the worse for it? Hurricane's the same thing. I'm not going to argue that Tornadus-T isn't way better in Rain, because it is, but that's no excuse to keep it out of S-Tier when literally half the metagame right now is Rain.

You also ignore the rest of the quote:
If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Flaw: 70% accurate STAB move outside of Rain
Thorough Mitigation: Great base Speed, good SpAtk and Attack, modest base 79/80/90 defenses, excellent STAB option, fantastic coverage, access to U-Turn, and Regenerator.

And I've heard tell from two different OU council members that the next suspect is going to be Tornadus-T, so there's that :toast:
 
Now, I'm not really sure if Tornadus-T is S Rank material, but looking through this thread I see a lot of hate to No-Rain-Tornadus-T.

Either way, you just can't disregard that without rain Tornadus-T is a mediocre pokemon that barely makes C-rank.
Barely makes C-Rank without rain? I'd like to disagree with that. Having used Tornadus-T out of rain, I can safely say that it is still an amazing pokemon. So when it has to trade a very powerful STAB for a less reliable STAB or a weaker yet reliable STAB (Air Slash), it drops to C-tier? Granted losing that 100% accurate Hurricane is disappointing, but I fail to see how a pokemon that is...

1.) The fastest pokemon in the OU tier bar Jolteon
2.) Has solid mixed attacking stats coupled with reasonable bulk
3.) Has Regenerator AND a lightning-fast U-Turn
4.) Still has a good movepool to abuse (Superpower, Rain Dance, TAUNT)

...could possibly be barely C-Tier?
 
The main reason why Tornadus-T is so good is because of stabbed Hurricane and all the tools to abuse it. Hurricane is the reason why Special attacking Dragonites exists and why Volcarona is used on rain teams.

Without Hurricane, Tornadus-T is too frail to abuse most of it's moves as Hurricane 2hko such a wide range of pokemon that there is very few that can switch in and counter it. Even if they can, it can still win with confusion hax.
 

Reymedy

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I agree with Tornadus-T for rank S.

Everybody agree with his condition under Rain so I'm just gonna say :

In fact it's playable outside of Rain.
Just saying, everybody seems to assume that Hurricane isn't usable outside of Rain, I want to underline that Stone Edge is only 10% accuracy over it, Hydro Pump aswell etc...
Don't forget Focus Blast.

So this move, is usable outside of Rain, and god like under Rain. Under Sun you can still spam Heat Wave isn't it?

So to me, Tornadus-T isn't a Venusaur at all. It also learns a ton of useful moves like U-Turn and it has Renegerator.
I'm pretty sure outside of a Rain team, a set with Hurricane/Heat/Wave/U-Turn and anything (superpower if you wanna go mixed, or Focus Blast, Rain Dance, Sleep Talk etc..) is viable and really decent.

You also take few risks when we know how played Rain is.
Running him under the Sun and dropping Hurricane was just a bad idea.
 
I think I'll throw my hat in the ring here for Tornadus-T being A-Rank, though not without some hesitation. The reason for this is that Tornadus-T is kind of an anomalous pokemon; it has some worrying weak points, while simultaneously having some ridiculous strengths. For example:

Strengths:
-Powerful STAB Hurricane
-Wallbreaking with Superpower
-Regenerator
-U-turn
-Blazing fast 121 speed
-Nice support options (Taunt and Rain Dance mainly)

Weaknesses:
-Dependence on rain to function consistently
-Generally sparse movepool, making it predictable
-Stealth Rock weakness, essentially stripping it of Regenerator
-Has no reliable option to deal damage outside of it's preferred weather

I'm not sure if the above is all completely accurate (the weaknesses in particular as I'm kind of belting this out on the fly), but I generally feel that Tornadus-T requires a bit too much support to work at maximum effectiveness to be S-Tier. You say Torn-T has regenerator? I say Stealth Rock. You say Torn-T has Uber wallbreaking Hurricane/ Superpower combo? I say Jirachi, Chansey, Rotom-W and Gastrodon are capable of walling it (to an extent, as none are 2hko'd by either move). I say that Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Ninetales exist, and you cannot guarantee rain. I also say Choice Scarf and Priority.

Don't get me wrong. Tornadus-T is absolutely amazing, and under the right conditions - that is, no SR and Drizzle up - I think it's pretty broken. But the definitions are also pretty clear, and Tornadus-T requires no small amount of support. Keep in mind that drizzleToed is actually a massive support requirement, as it automatically forces you into building a rain team - and honestly, any non-Hurrispam Torn-T isn't very good. Trust me, I've tried it, and I tried hard. But outside of rain, Tornadus-T is just underwhelming.

By the by, I was under the impression that Drizzle would be on the table next anyway? In any case, if drizzle did get suspected, then Tornadus-T is obviously not even close to S-Rank.

EDIT: to the poster above: There's also a reason why the competitive community calls Focus Blast 'Focus Miss'. Yes, it's good enough that people use it; but notice that there aren't a lot of pokes in the top twenty or so that rely on it. 70% accuracy is shaky no matter how you slice it, and if Hurricane should so miss for Torn-T outside of rain - then generally it's frail enough that it'll probably die because of it. Not saying that you can't use Hurricane outside of rain - you certainly can, and often it's worth the risk - but should an S-Tier poke really have to take that kind of risk? Mmmmm. :p
 

Enguarde

I only play ADV UU
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Agreeing with a high A-Rank fo Tornadus-T, not much to be said that hasn't already but in speaking about it losing functionality in rain, its normally pretty easy to keep rain up compared to other weathers, what with Politoed threatening, Ninetales, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, and the potential for Hurricane to hit for massive damage on them bar Tyranitar should it hit. And personally I find SuperPower a lot for useful for Tornadus-T as generally you'll see no reason to go with Focus Blast over Hurricane, and Superpower will be hitting much harder on specially defensive Tyranitar and Heatran where a fighting move is called for. Or U-Turn will just be selected instead.

Still, that being said though, it is no where near as reliable without the rain and prone to scarfers, priority bar Mach Punch and Stealth Rock which somewhat negates regenerator. Simple way to put it is that its just not consistently good enough to function without its preferred weather and partners (where it certainly is a dominant force), therefore doesn't quite measure up to S-Rank.
 
...and the potential for Hurricane to hit for massive damage on them bar Tyranitar should it hit.
Exactly. You want to change the weather? You risk eating Hurricane or lose momentum if Tornadus-T U-turns out (which isn't difficult to predict). It's almost always a lose/lose situation for the other person when Tornadus-T is on the playing field, slightly reminiscent of the checkmate position Genesect puts you in (but less severe).

Needing rain is not a huge flaw when Keldeo has to live with an 80% accurate 120 base power STAB move.

Terrakion has priority issues, and just defensive flaws all round.

Deoxys-D needs a spin-blocker; and arguably, Gengar, the only viable one for HO, isn't very good at spin-blocking.

Toed isn't a threatening Pokemon by itself.

All S ranked Pokemon have flaws / rely on something else, I just do not see how this so called 'reliance on rain' should in any way hold Tornadus-T from being S rank.
 

Reymedy

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I think I'll throw my hat in the ring here for Tornadus-T being A-Rank, though not without some hesitation. The reason for this is that Tornadus-T is kind of an anomalous pokemon; it has some worrying weak points, while simultaneously having some ridiculous strengths. For example:

Strengths:
-Powerful STAB Hurricane
-Wallbreaking with Superpower
-Regenerator
-U-turn
-Blazing fast 121 speed
-Nice support options (Taunt and Rain Dance mainly)

Weaknesses:
-Dependence on rain to function consistently
-Generally sparse movepool, making it predictable
-Stealth Rock weakness, essentially stripping it of Regenerator
-Has no reliable option to deal damage outside of it's preferred weather

I'm not sure if the above is all completely accurate (the weaknesses in particular as I'm kind of belting this out on the fly), but I generally feel that Tornadus-T requires a bit too much support to work at maximum effectiveness to be S-Tier. You say Torn-T has regenerator? I say Stealth Rock. You say Torn-T has Uber wallbreaking Hurricane/ Superpower combo? I say Jirachi, Chansey, Rotom-W and Gastrodon are capable of walling it (to an extent, as none are 2hko'd by either move). I say that Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Ninetales exist, and you cannot guarantee rain. I also say Choice Scarf and Priority.

Don't get me wrong. Tornadus-T is absolutely amazing, and under the right conditions - that is, no SR and Drizzle up - I think it's pretty broken. But the definitions are also pretty clear, and Tornadus-T requires no small amount of support. Keep in mind that drizzleToed is actually a massive support requirement, as it automatically forces you into building a rain team - and honestly, any non-Hurrispam Torn-T isn't very good. Trust me, I've tried it, and I tried hard. But outside of rain, Tornadus-T is just underwhelming.

By the by, I was under the impression that Drizzle would be on the table next anyway? In any case, if drizzle did get suspected, then Tornadus-T is obviously not even close to S-Rank.

EDIT: to the poster above: There's also a reason why the competitive community calls Focus Blast 'Focus Miss'. Yes, it's good enough that people use it; but notice that there aren't a lot of pokes in the top twenty or so that rely on it. 70% accuracy is shaky no matter how you slice it, and if Hurricane should so miss for Torn-T outside of rain - then generally it's frail enough that it'll probably die because of it. Not saying that you can't use Hurricane outside of rain - you certainly can, and often it's worth the risk - but should an S-Tier poke really have to take that kind of risk? Mmmmm. :p
It's not "only" Focus Blast and it's not because some people call it Focus Miss because they find it hilarious that it makes this move bad.
Gengar and RP Landorus use it by the way, and the latest in one of the biggest threat right now in OU.
Stone Edge is 10% over it as I said, Specs Toed spams a 80% move called Hydro Pump.

On the other hand Tornadus-T spams a spell that is AT LEAST half time 70% and half time 100 so... yes I'm a genius it's a 85% move on average which is higher than 80 (I'm really a genius).
So just saying, there are TONS of pokemons that rely on an accuracy move lower than 85%, this argument is now cleaned I hope.
And if you tell me that Sun teams are here and lower the accuracy, I'll just say that you can still use Heat Wave, and turn the weather to Rain, or U-Turn to a counter like Dugtrio who traps almost anything in a Sun team. Moreover even with the Sun Presence it's something like 10% on the suspect (you talked about competitive players right?) so who cares, it would lower the accuracy to something still above of 80% (let's say 50% rain, 40% weatherless/sand/hail and 10% Sun, in the end the accuracy is around 83%).

To sum up, you did not really understand what I was explaining (maybe it's my fault), I was doing a comparison, not saying that's it's the same. And as FaceFaceFace pointed out, you can still U-Turn and trap 2/3 of the other weather introducers (the most used ones). Moreover you trap Jirachi for instance.
Gastrodon can't take 2 Specs Hurricane by the way, it's a sure 2HKO. And you even forgot Zapdos and Thundurus-T in the possible counters (Thundurus-T in a more offensive way since he can set up Agility and 0HKO for instance).

And just saying a S rank got weaknesses is obvious, and most of the people here know this. FaceFaceFace explained it better than me.
But the weaknesses you pointed were not all relevant and don't prevent Tornadus-T from claiming the S rank.


EDIT: to the following posts I see, stop picking up a single sentence and complain about it, he's just taking examples, debating on one of them is sterile.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Terrakion is far from broken '-'. This might be subject to change if we get rid of one of Terrak's best checks: Tornadus-T. However, with that said, let me comment on discussion thus far: (please do not bring up drizzle discussion, I'm not bringing it up against until some idiot suggests it on suspect thread).


Focus Blast miss arguement is irrelivent in metagame discussion (because, you can't equate hax .-.). Its not a bad move at all; RP Lando relies on FB to take down many Pokemon (Skarm, Rotom-W, OHKO TTar, OHKO Ferro, etc.) and RP Lando is an amazing Pokemon DESPITE one of its main sweeping moves being FB. Specs Focus Blast from Torn-T hits SUPER HARD on many things that resist Hurricane. I'm not saying its reliable, but if something like Jirachi is going to switch in, using Specs FB dents it for around 50%, not including SR damage! (unless Rachi is max sdef calm or w/e shit, but most people run speed).

The reason Tornadus-T deserves S rank is simple: its huge impact on the metagame. I always find myself having to use something that resist Hurricane and I usually find that Rotom-W and Jirachi are the most reliable at this, like Lavos pointed out. People are reviving Bronzgon (at least one team I saw on the RMT's) because it can tank Hurricane. Jirachi's use spiked because not only can it provides rocks and steel typing but it can CHECK TORN-T RELIABLY. If you can't switch into Torn-T, it ends up murdering. Sure, it needs rain to function. That's not asking a lot really. I use many weatherless offensive teams, and let me tell you: Torn-T > any weatherless offensive team that can't switch into Hurricane. Also, lets go to sand and sun: Scarf Tar can't outpace Torn-T anymore like it did Torn-I and it risks facing a Superpower to the face, and Ninetales takes like 56% from Hurricane. Abamasnow dies if Hurricane lands and U-turn does lots.

Seriously, Torn-T deserves S Rank. I'm not commenting whether its broken or not, but regardless it should be S Rank. Thanks you.
 

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
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Quick question, is Deoxy D in S Rank due to its versatility?
That, and its ability to set hazards fast, Taunt opponents, and take less than 50% from most of the tier's strongest attackers. It's speed prevents it from being Taunted as it sets 3 layers of spikes and SR on your team without taking a smidgen from your attempted attacks.
 
That, and its ability to set hazards fast, Taunt opponents, and take less than 50% from most of the tier's strongest attackers. It's speed prevents it from being Taunted as it sets 3 layers of spikes and SR on your team without taking a smidgen from your attempted attacks.
That is very true. Thanks mate.
 
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