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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I've never tried Agility Luke, but I would add Deo-D as a great partner so you can wear down your opponent with entry hazards, which weak Agi Luke would probably appreciate.

    Also (one of your calcs):

    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 302-359 (94.67 - 112.53%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

    two rounds of SR should put it into OHKO range easily, even at min damage.

    however, don't most lando-t run defense evs? i dont use it much but players I know run defensive evs :x


    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 218-257 (67.49 - 79.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    ohko after rocks please. reflect that in op.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 316-372 (82.29 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    redundant calc. most common sets are scarfed (which outspeed at +0) or max DEF. Calc with max def pls.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 270-322 (76.27 - 90.96%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    i hate this calc. you need max damage + rocks for that possible chance, anything below max won't KO.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 250-294 (61.88 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    calc sucks: jirachi outspeeds adamant Luke at 290 and possess Fire Punch, so unless you're already at +2 speed, AND HIT IT ON THE SWITCH, Fire Punch wins.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 234-277 (81.53 - 96.51%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    248 hp is standard. calc again.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 283-335 (70.04 - 82.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    sucks. unless you hit on switch its gonna WoW you. calc makes it seem like you would advise staying in '-'
  2. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Shurtugal is right. Based on SDS' spread, 200/244, -1 Close Combat followed by -1 Ice Punch won't KO without Rocks and at least decent damage rolls. If you predict the switch and use either Crunch or Ice Punch, it's obviously not an issue, but watch out.

    Of course, if they don't run considerable bulk (Nyandorus needs to get under 87%, which requires investment in both HP and Defense), they still risk the OHKO with Rocks on a -1 Ice Punch.
  3. TheTaBuu

    TheTaBuu

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    Wow. I was totally not thinking when I was calc-ing. Just throwing together some stuff haha, I'm sorry. However, I'd like to get some resistance/support on my claim. :)
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  4. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Here is my basic problem with Lucario, it provides little to no team support outside of sweeping. Take Salamence for example, Salamence can be a solid check to fighting types, it can take on Venusaur and other sun sweepers, and break walls with a mixed moveset, and check things with a scarf. A tier pokemon are rarely one dimensional and can be used in many different ways.

    Lucario on the other hand is to frail to stop anything even with resists, the only thing it can do outside of sweep is be a psudocheck with extremespeed. You can't give Lucario a choice scarf or band without it being pretty much outclassed by other pokemon either.
  5. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest GHOSTS
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    Yes! Finally, one of my nominations doesn't go ignored!

    Yeah, C-Rank seems fitting for Mienshao. Mienshao isn't the most threatening thing ever, but it can be very effective in the right conditions. Although it gets competition as a Fighting-type, it has awesome qualities such as 125 Attack and 130 BP STAB Hi Jump Kick, which allows it to hit anything that isn't immune to it for serious damage. Stone Edge provides decent coverage as well, so it can do. U-Turn and Regenerator are where it get its main points, scouting the team while healing off LO Damage. It's fantastic when played right. Though it's flaws are: It's frail as hell, it has no way to hurt Jelli outside of Stone Miss, and it's speed, while good, isn't the best. Well, anyways, Mienshao does serve as a strong and speedy scout, and its traits are fitting for a C-Rank.
  6. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Yeah Lucario provides very little defensive synergy and functions solely as an offensive physical attacker (it is otherwise outclassed) It really has nothing to do outside of Swords Dance (and I guess Agility but not really).

    Its Steel-typing resistances do not do very much to help it since it is so frail. Is there a Dragon-type using Outrage? You're probably getting 2HKOed by it anyway. Maybe you can Ice Punch it, but then you're Lucario just happens to be extremely crippled by the move. If it happens to be at +2, you're probably going to get OHKOed by Outrage. For example, here is what happens against powerful Adamant Dragons.

    252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 93.95% - 111.03% (62.5% chance to OHKO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 84.34% - 99.29%

    It doesn't resist Hurricane since it is a Fighting-type either, so Tornadus-T can trash it in one hit. A lot of the resistances are mitigated by coverage moves (Do you resist Ice? Not Mamoswine's Earthquake. Do you resist Grass? You get OHKOed by Breloom's Mach Punch). Heck, having a Fire-, Ground-, and Fighting- weakness is freaking bad, because that means that an unSTABbed Earthquake or something will defeat it without hardly a doubt. Finally, Lucario is (almost) always a physical attacker, and Extreemespeed makes them pretty similar. Luacrio's predicatability and fraility are why it should stay in B-tier.
  7. Takion

    Takion

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    Tabuu, as nice as Life Orb Lucario is, I do believe Air Balloon is the best Item for it in the current Meta.

    My reasoning is this, If used on a rain team, fire moves are weakened allowing him to get a swords dance off. The balloon also lets you get a swords dance of against Earthquake abusers. Now I understand the power life orb provides but honestly a STAB CC without life orb will kill most the Meta.

    Now with him being in A rank, (He's MY Fav pokemon too!) As I am new to the game Ill work my way in slowly, but speed is a huge issue for our Jackal friend. I personally prefer using Crunch over Ice Punch as it allows Lucario to check Jellicents, Reuniculus, and other pesky psychic/ghost types. However, speed is an issue.

    The speed issue: Perhaps a Double Boost Lucario can be made viable...

    Agility
    Swords Dance
    CC
    ES

    It being A rank at the moment doesnt seem likely...but thats because Im comparing it to the sweepers on there already...Dragonite, Salamence, Latios, Keldeo, and Scizor all provide something a little extra to the team that I feel Lucario lacks.
  8. nygerman

    nygerman

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    The thing is keldeo is easily countered by anything with water absorb.(Jellicent, Vapereon). It also lacks speed and neautral power. Keldeo is easily revenge killed while Tornadus has regenerate health through switching.

    Torrnadus-t has perfect stats and ability. All it needs is hurricane in the rain to wreck 90% of Ou. Torrnadus is very easily to run a team around and it's counters pretty much have to be steel or pink blob.
  9. Takion

    Takion

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    As much as I agree with your calcs I disagree with your final paragraph.

    Mamoswine...usually will never go first againest a lucario...if a lucario has air balloon it can easily get a swords dance off...infact it doesnt need one againest Mamo

    252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP/ 4 Def Mamoswine: 458-542 (126.86 - 150.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Especially if its holding Air Balloon unless if that Mamo is running a Choice scarf and fighting move it wont kill Luca

    Breloom...Unless if Breloom got a boost a mach punch will not OHKO it...Im assuming your talking about a Sub Punch Breloom

    244+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 192-228 (68.08 - 80.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    While Lucario at swords dance

    +2 252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 460-543 (143.75 - 169.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Tornadus-T...Usually you would not keep a fighting type pokemon in the game against a flying type. Not to mention he's been recently promoted to S-Tier! :)

    The outrages...Usually you do not switch in sweepers on an outrage...Your tanks are made to handle this...e.g. Ferrothorn is an example.

    These are my 2 cents but I do not disagree with you on Lucario being B rank, I just thought Id throw this out there.
  10. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Jolly Mamoswine does, in fact, outspeed Lucario and KO with Earthquake; and Jolly Mamoswine is not a bad idea this meta considering the amount of Jolly Low Sweep Breelom running around

    Sub Punch Breelom is almost nonexistent in this meta. Techniloom, its most used variant, can always KO Lucario
    252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 288-342 (102.12 - 121.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    And that's without a Life Orb
  11. Takion

    Takion

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    Thats Fair on the TechBreloom

    The mamo argument can go either way as I said a Air Balloon can help lucario in the meta. There are Jollycarios as well:

    252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 420-494 (116.34 - 136.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  12. TheTaBuu

    TheTaBuu

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    "Luacrio's predicatability and fraility are why it should stay in B-tier." SwampRocket
    Sigh...I guess you're right. Can't argue with that, although I still think he's a sick ass sweeper for this Generation :)
    Guess you'll be taking a backseat tour this time around Lucario buddy
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  13. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Why is Kingdra in B Rank, exactly?

    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

    Kingdra is extremely hard to wall, as the only thing that resists its STABs is Ferrothorn (Empoleon isn't hugely relevant in this meta), and Kingdra can opt to run Hidden Power Fire to dent it.

    Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    Kingdra isn't exactly outclassed, seeing as it is the only thing that can fill its specific niche, barring Kabotops (or maybe Omastar?). It's useful against all different kinds of teams, even sun, as its can soak up Fire attacks easily, even if it is all that it will do. Rain teams will have a brutal time with Kingdra, as it can easily outspeed anything they can throw at it.

    The only reason I would think Kingdra would be low on the rankings is because no one really uses it, and that its stats are a little low. Still, it is a Water type and a Dragon type, and it can use both the offensive and defensive virtues of those types effectively, from either/both sides of the attacking spectrum.

    So yeah. Discuss.
  14. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    There are many Dragon-types that perform somewhat better than Kingdra, such as Dragonite and Salamence, due to the fact that they are bulkier and faster, respectively, and aren't threatened by Ferrothorn. Also, while Kingdra may have only one weakness, to Dragon, Kingra is frail. You only need to pack a Scarfer that has a strong, neutral attack against it, and you are on a good position. Example goes to Scarf Landorus' Earthquake, wich has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage. Also, under rain, Ferrothorn can easily take HP Fire and use a combination of Leech Seed and Power Whip (and possibly Protect) to stall out Kingdra. Kingra is actually a good sweeper, but it only really has a niche that it's a good anti-Rain pokémon.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    kingdra is also situational and i would just pick a universal rain check in general as a better answer than kingdra who is a liability outside of opposing rain. just my opinion; i know it can be used wonderfully if sucessful on a team majorly weak to rain; but, i seriously would prefer jut using something that does more.

    also, kingdra is outclassed by majority of OU dragons in general for the role of being a dragon like others mentioned. just my 2 cents
  16. TheTaBuu

    TheTaBuu

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    Haha, I feel pretty much everything has been provided as to why it's B-Rank. Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Skarmory, and the almost non-existent Empoleon can take on Kingdra and its' respective sets. It honestly is outclassed by other Dragons. Revenge Killer? Sure he's hell of a fast Pokemon if and only if rain is up. Scarfed Salamence or Garchomp or even Hydreigon or more reliable thanks to their higher base Speed+Scarf. Wall-Breaker? Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, Latios, and Garchomp pretty much outclass it in terms of what they can actually break down and the power difference. Sweeper? Dragonite has Multiscale, Salamence has Moxie or Intimidate, Hydreigon has a diverse and solid attacking stats, Latios packs CM, and Garchomp can SD its way to Victory. Another point as to why its B-Rank (and already pretty much mentioned): It's movepool isn't...terrible and its stats are...horrendous either. But, it really is lackluster and falls short of the Titans in OU.
    So tl;dr: Keep Kingdra down where it is

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  17. Takion

    Takion

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    Can a pokemon who has crippling weakness to stealth rock qualify for A rank? I was thinking about Volcarona but that 4x weakness to rock...
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Tabuu, I think you're not giving Kingdra enough credit. Yes, he's stopped cold by a healthy Ferrothorn (Modest LO Hydro Pump does 36% minimum [in the rain, herpaderp] to 252/168, which is enough to finish it off when it's weakened if it tries to switch in), but it and specially defensive Empoleon are its only stops outside of a very good stall team. He is THE anti-rain Pokémon, which is honestly a stupendous offensive niche to hold.

    I get that I'm reinforcing his place in B-tier, but that is not a bad tier by any stretch, and I just kinda feel like you guys are taking a dump on him when he doesn't really deserve it. And I realize this entire post is redundant and I don't know why I spent all this time typing it out and doing calcs.

    TL;DR Kingdra is the ultimate niche Pokémon and if your rain team is not prepared for him you will be shat upon.
  19. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I think he was voted B because of how desperately he needs Rapid Spin support (not just Rocks, but Spikes and Toxic Spikes as well) + unless you carry Hurricane you get crippled by Rain.
  20. TheTaBuu

    TheTaBuu

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    @Lord of Bays:
    Kingdra is not garbage. I may have been a bit hard on Kingdra but that is the simple truth. Kingdra really struggles to hold certain positions in OU compared to the other Dragons. Kingdra does get the ability to counter Rain though.
    And of course B-Tier is not a bad ranking. Lucario, one of my personal favorites is a B-Ranker.

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  21. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Really Kingdra can do so much more than just counter rain teams guys...The LO rain dance set also makes him an amazing sun counter as well, neudering a sun team and than sweeping with draco meteors/pulses or ice beams. It also makes him not just dead weight against a balanced team as after a rain dance he cant be revenged by a scarfer and can blast off rain boosted stab water moves, which backed by a modest nature and lo can do about 40% to ferrothorn, which is pretty impressive. And remember, unlike other dragons kingdra has stab water moves. So to say he's completely outclassed by other dragons except against rain teams I really disagree with. As for its ranking I think B fits it perfectly well, as its semi-low offensive stats and fratility really hold him back from being a top threat.
    tl;dr: Keep Kingdra in B, but he's more than just a rain counter
  22. Takion

    Takion

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  23. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Its probably because wobbuffet is pretty much non-existant in the current metagame, although it is de-facto OU because of its BL status. It and Staraptor should be tiered in my opinion, besides they are somewhat use able.

    A case could probably be made for wobb and staraptor to be both C tier, they both have niche's but they are almost invisible. In fact Staraptor is pretty much just outclassed by upper tier pokemon, I might even say it could be D tier.
  24. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I actually think Staraptor is quite underrated. Whilst the fact it gets worn down so easily due to recoil and a Stealth Rock weakness means it won't be able to get out of C-tier, from my experience it can become a living hell for the opponent if they don't have a solid check, which are far and few between. Between Brave Bird, Double Edge and Close Combat, it's almost impossible for any offensive team to get a safe switch in, as most of its members are easily OHKOd by the appropriate move. I've been using Choice Scarf Staraptor on one of my HO teams recently, and it's a real showstopper. Obviously physical walls such as Skarmory and Hippowdon are issues, but you can U-turn out to something like Gothitelle to deal with them.
  25. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    I was wondering if Mamo OHKOs Luke with Superpower, because if that's the case the Air Balloon argument is mooth -unless they run Stone Edge instead of Superpower, but that's subpar imo-.
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