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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I'd say Dragonite could have been S in the latter period of BW, when all the major baddies (like Thundurs-i) were banned, and BW2 had yet to come out-- also Mamoswine and Bronzong were in much lower popularity. BW2 environment is a bit too fast paced offensive for Dragonite to stand at the top.
  2. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Winner of the Biggest Dork Competition 2014
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    The end of BW1 was absolutely crawling with Sand though; the most popular team archetype was Sand Volt-Turn with Scarf Landorus (a Dragonite check itself!).
  3. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    *sighs* Man, this thread hasn't been touched in a while!

    Anyways, I'd like to nominate Espeon for B-Rank. Espeon is a pretty good Pokemon: it is hands down the best Baton Pass receiver in the game and is the must-have on any BP team, bouncing back hazards like a boss and setting up CM. It is also a decent fit on offensive teams that need a way to block hazards and cannot afford to run a spinner. Espeon also can set up Dual Screens nicely and use CM to be a decent attacker. While Xatu is generally better for a support role and fighting dem Ferros and Skarms and vice versa, Espeon has its place with its offensive presence, great speed (outspeeds Terrakion, which is nice), and overall the choice for offensive and BP teams. It isn't worse than Xatu: the two play differently and it depends on which is more necessary. Espeon is a great Pokemon who should be placed in B-Rank. (Also, did I not mention that if it has Shadow Ball, it's the perfect Deo-D check!)

    Also, Evire for E pls. It's irrelevant in this meta but we need to tell everyone that it sucks ass.
  4. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Two things. First of all, Espeon's offensive capabilities does not make it a Deoxys-D check, Magic Bounce makes it a Deoxys-D check. Deoxys will never actually stay in on an Espeon, and even if, for some demented reason, he did...

    252 SpAtk Espeon Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Deoxys-D: 38.16% - 45.39% (3 hits to KO)

    ...it wouldn't hurt too much.

    Secondly, don't rank E-Vire at all. You said it yourself, it's completely irrelevant -- no one uses it, and anyone who does is probably just trolling the ladder.
  5. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Lol I never bothered to run calcs. Anyways, I take back that statement.

    Kay then. All I gotta say for now.
  6. namehtmas

    namehtmas

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    I still think Espeon is a bit underrated for the fact that it, as you mentioned, makes Baton Pass much much more viable. While I've never used Baton Pass personally, it seems that Espeon is the cornerstone of nearly every team that does. That seems pretty good to me, albeit in a very niche scenario. It does have decent offensive presence and it's ability to set up screens on a variety of pokemon probably do make it viable enough to give it a B-ranking, imo.
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    Not to be rude or anything, but how does being good at Baton Pass justify anything? Baton Pass is quite the gimmicky strategy itself and simple precaution is all that's needed to stop it. It's definitely not a strategy that's still capable of walling / sweeping most of the metagame, since it takes so long to set up and is so easily thwarted. A pokemon that's important for Baton Pass won't be able to do those things either.

    But that's not even the point. Baton Passing is probably only 10% of what Espeon does. Its main points are A. It's high speed and SpA and B. Magic Bounce. It's quite fast and hits quite hard, but it is outclassed by Gengar / Latios in this regard, both of whom have equal speed and power but a better typing or better bulk. Espeon's Magic Bounce does give it something to stand out with, but again it receives fierce competition with Xatu, who can fulfill many of the roles of Espeon too. I think its best for it to stick to C tier for now.
  8. namehtmas

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    Baton Pass is certainly somewhat gimmicky, but it's still something that'd out there and necessary to prepare for. Would anyone give two shits about BP if it weren't for Espeon? I can't really say, but the fact that Espeon makes an entire strategy that much more viable is definitely noticeable at the least. Like I said, I have never personally used a BP team so I could be completely off the mark here.

    I don't really think it's fair to compare Espeon to Gengar and Latios. Both are clearly offensive powerhouses (though Gengar's role is a bit less clear but that's a whole 'nother discussion...), while Espeon is more of a momentum-pivot and screen setter. Sure Latios can also set-up screens as well, but that job is best left to Latias if you want to use one of them. ANYWAY getting back on point, Espeon is able to obviously shift some momentum with Magic Bounce. It's able to kind of help the 'free turn' of set-up the opponent gets with setting up screens since it limits what support moves the opponent can use. As I said whether or not it's B-tier is not really too much of my concern, I just think it deserves a bit more discussion than just posting one calc against Deo-D.
  9. Kidogo

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    Just a comment on BP--I feel like the fact that espeon is the best BP receiver in the game is a testament not to the playstyle but to the power of Magic Bounce. And also, iirc IPL used BP to win the smogon tournament a couple years ago, which demonstrates its level of potency, regardless of whether or not it is gimmicky. I personally see espeon as somewhere between B and C, as it has a solid niche that is nevertheless rather small and does not really make it viable in general play. I'd probably lean towards B though since it's so incomparable.
  10. vanillazzz

    vanillazzz

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    Darmanitan should be added, under the sun it becomes a powerful threat. Although he need a spinner team mate (many checks if locked into something), sun boosted (or even not) flare blitz deal tons of damage to everything if is not resisted. I used once scarfed one with max attack, and under the sun it is really hard to live flare blitz from this beast.
  11. Aerophoenix

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    Now I love Darmanitan to the end of the earth but at most he deserves C rank. And considering that's Victini's home, it seems appropriate.
  12. Mr Omgness

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    I would like to nominate 2 Pokemon who are not yet ranked.

    First one is Crobat. I have been playing around a bit with the bat and find it to be an excellent wallbreaker and lead scout.

    Crobat is only outsped by a few number of pokemon in the OU tier and is the fastest taunt-user along with Aerodacytl. Leading of with Crobat is something you wont regret in 90% of the cases.

    Comparing Crobat to Aerodacytl is probably the first thing to do. Aerodactyl has the favor of being able to set up rocks but if the opponent anticipates your Aerodactyl lead you lost the momentum as you are forced to hard switch Pokemon. Something which isnt so when you start with Crobat due to the reason that Crobat has access to U-Turn while Aerodacytly doesnt. If Crobat is up against something that threatens to OHKO it, Crobat can usually just U-Turn out. Crobat only has to worry about Scarfed opponents, STAB Ice Shard or about losing the speed tie with Jolteon and Aerodactyl.

    A second thing that makes Crobat a valuable pokemon is it's access to Brave Bird (which Aerodactyl doesnt by the way). Crobat has a decent Atk stat which can EV'ed so that Brave Bird can do big damage to a few notorious pokemon in the OU tier. I have found that a lot of people tend to see Crobat as an easy switch in for their weather starters, but when EVs are put into Attack Brave Bird does big damage to Ninetales and Politoed, where as Tyranitar will not be eager to switch in on a pokemon that has a fast U-Turn.

    Thirdly, Crobat has a nice defensive typing: it's 4x resistant against Bug, Fighting and Grass and is immune to Ground. On top of that 85/80/80 defenses isnt that bad for a Pokemon that is meant to scout and break walls. Furthermore it has acces to healing with Roost. Seeing as how fast it is, it can easily Roost to negate lesser Thunder, Ice and Rock attacks aimed at it that would otherwise harm it more than the 50% Roost heals.

    Lastly, Crobat is immune to Toxic, which gives it another switch opportunity. Especially when you keep in mind that Pokemon using Toxic are mostly Pokemon that Crobat loves to Taunt.

    What sets Crobat back is it's lack of options. Apart from being a stallbreaker/scout it can't do much. With that speed a Choice Band set looks interesting and 90 Atk stat is definitely bandable but Crobat lacks moves that it can use. Brave Bird recoil cant be healed with Roost unless at the expense of being locked into it.

    A second thing that isnt helpful to the bat is the lack of a good ability. Inner Focus only deals with Fake Out Leads seeing as how fast Crobat is and it is highly situational that this ability proves useful. Infiltrator isnt that great either seeing as light screen and reflect aren't that popular nowadays and that Crobat isnt meant to deal damage in most cases.

    Crobat often gets the negative reaction that it has nothing to do vs the steel types dominating the OU metagame but Ferrothorn and Skarmory are rendered useless by Taunt and cannot do anything to the bat either as it easily heals off the damage done by them with Roost (except Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball). And as I mentioned before Crobat can easily escape gnarly situations with U-Turn.

    Either way I think Crobat deserves a nomination into the C Rank.

    Summarize:
    - Fastest Taunt user along with Aerodactyl (not counting Electrode)
    - Fastest U-Turn user after Ninjask and Accelgor (who both dont use it that often)
    - Many switch in options due to 3 4x resists, 1 immunity and immunity to Toxic.
    - Acces to Brave Bird and Roost


    The second Pokemon I would like to nominate is Porygon2. Again my nomination is the result of personal experiences with this Pokemon.

    I only tested one set but this set was great and frustrated a lot of my opponents. This set is pretty standard on Porygon2. The set I'm talking about is the Defensive Eviolite set with Trace Ability and with Recover, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt.

    As I started with comparing Crobat to Aerodacytl I'll start off with a comparison here as well. A lot of people turn to Chansey/Blissey for their Special wall and therefore neglect Porygon2. But Porygon2 is a 2in1 Pokemon. It has 85/90/95 defenses! Combine that with Eviolite, easy recovery and only one weakness and you got yourself a pokemon that a lot of offensive pokemon cannot take down. For example Choice Band Scizor cannot win a 1on1 vs this duck unless he gets a crit.

    Comparing it to Blissey/Chansey isnt that fair because Porygon2 is a wall on both sides: physical and special. On the special side off course Blissey and Chansey win because of their superior special defense and acces to more support moves: Wish, Stealth Rock, Aromatherapy. Porygon2 has it's own niche, it checks a lot of common threats. As long as your opponent's Pokemon doesnt have a STAB Fighting Attack at it's disposal then this duck probably wont get OHKOed meaning it can counter by t-waving, and then using recover by outspeeding the paralyzed opponent and can then hope to live the hit or get parahax.

    Thunder Wave cripples most Pokemon that cannot OHKO Porygon2 and try to set up on it. Where as Boltbeam coverage and 105 SpA make sure that it isnt Tauntbait.

    It's ability Trace is great, some examples:
    - Heatran and Jolteon are easy switch-ins as they already couldnt do much to the duck and now their STAB is taken away.
    - Opponent will think twice before letting out his Dragonite. I'm not joking when I say a multiscale Porygon2 is capable of sweeping some teams.
    - Porygon2 doesnt like Toxic, but this changes when switching into a Gliscor.
    - Sun teams better watch out for Chlorophyll Duck
    - Porygon2 doesnt like Status, but if your opponent has a Celebi, Starmie, Roserade, Chansey or Blissey then your problem can be solved easily.
    - Prankster Recover and T-Wave.
    - Shadow Tag and Arena Trap users are doomed
    - ...

    One could consider running Analytic over Trace seeing as Porygon2 has low speed but I prefer Trace so it can fullfill it's Wall function better and because the set aims to T-Wave a lot of your opponent's Pokemon.

    What sets it back is it's weakness to Status ailments. The duck doesnt like getting toxic'd, paralyzed and even a burn is not that fun. But that pretty much goes for all walls that dont have access to natural cure. Trace could give it some help when a natural cure, magic guard or poison heal pokemon is around but that's it.

    Another flaw is that some pokemon can easily set up on it: namely Ferrothorn, Bronzong and Forretress. Tyranitar will not like getting paralyzed but will laugh at Porygon2's attacks due to his boosted Special Defense (altho Tyranitar cannot kill the duck quickly 1on1 either unless it runs Substitute/Focus Punch). Apart from T-Waving them (which is a start I admit that much) Porygon2 cannot do much to them and will have to switch out. Other entry hazard setters are less troublesome; Skarmory has trouble with Thunderbolt while Hippowdon doesnt like Ice Beam.

    The Water/Ground Types also laugh at Porygon2 as he cant do anything while they Toxic/Burn him.


    Either way Porygon2 isnt your Pokemon to win a stallwar as it succumbs easily to status moves and lacks the offensive skills to dispose of walls of their own. Porygon2 excels at killing your opponent's offensive Pokemon or rendering them useless. Pretty much all the Dragons are no match for Porygon2, Banded Scizor cannot KO it and some nasty attackers like Jolteon, the Genies, Starmie, Heatran,... cannot kill it. Porygon2 is a safe switch-in in a lot of cases and that makes it a strong Pokemon, worthy of being OU.

    Despite some set backs Porygon 2 definitely deserves a mention in C Rank but I would qualify it as a B Rank for sure.

    Summarize:
    - Great defenses on both sides and only one weakness.
    - Boltbeam coverage backed up by 105 SpA.
    - Access to Recover
    - Great abilities
  13. Lord of Bays

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    If you're going to use Crobat, you really need to emphasize his 4x resistance to Fighting. and the ability to run as a somewhat reliable check to Terrakion. For obvious reasons, switching in on Stone Edge isn't an option, but look at these calc:

    252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 0HP/0Def Crobat (Neutral): 28% - 33% (88 - 103 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Crobat (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 4HP/0Def -1 Terrakion (Neutral): 115% - 136% (373 - 441 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    You're right about his Abilities not having too much use (lol Inner Focus on a Pokémon with base 130 speed), but Infiltrator could in fact be very helpful. The team I'm running benefits hugely from dual screens and Infiltrator Bandbat would be extremely troublesome. Dual Screens, if uncommon, are powerful, as is the ability to ignore them.
  14. youngjake93

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    If you're gonna mention Pory2, why not mention his amazing gravity set? Modest Download Gravity+Zap Cannon+Blizzard+Recover.
    That thing scores nice 2hkos on things not named Tyranitar, parahaxes, and totally tanks with the bulk and speedy recovery(after you paralyze them).
    It also gives you the added benefit of switching to choice band landorus and dominating with dat EQ under gravity. Plus everything is hit by spikes.
  15. Aerophoenix

    Aerophoenix

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    Shouldn't Tornadus-T be removed from the listing at this point?
  16. nygerman

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    I think pretty all rain teams check Baton pass with perish song. Taunt ruins baton pass. Baton pass is inconsistent and only threatens teams that are totally weak against them.

    Crobat is not even OU. It doesn't have stealth rocks and only has weak attacks. It's worse than metagross.
  17. cocoon

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    Guess how many rain teams run perish song politoad? Not many. And perish song is cockblocked by mr. mime. You're also missing the point if you believe taunt shuts down baton pass, espeon is on BP teams precisely for that role. BP is a legitimate strategy that can beat a wide array of teams, particularly bulky offense and stall. Espeon is the face of BP, on top of having great offensive presence, and being a great deoxys-d counter and one of the best DS users, that's why it deserves B rank.
  18. Aerophoenix

    Aerophoenix

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    Now obviously we don't know this for sure, but I feel like Rotom-W's gonna drop from A (not too far, probably to B). He's still good for a bulky VoltTurn core, but his raison d'être was a great counter to Tornadus-T. It's not his only role, but it was the reason for his inclusion on many teams. I mean, his usage stats in the late BW meta were mediocre, until we got the B2W2 threats; of those he primariky did well against Tornadus-T.
    And no, Tornadus-I will not usurp his brother's throne. He's a very different Pokemon who must play very differently. More powerful, but slower, frailer, and Prankster over Regenerator.
  19. Quickster

    Quickster

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    June 2012, before BW2 released:
    | 5 | Rotom-W | 51599 | 18.649% | 46383 | 20.345% |

    July 2012, after BW2 released:
    | 12 | Rotom-Wash | 38518 | 11.515% | 24714 | 12.355% |

    December 2012, now:
    | 10 | Rotom-Wash | 110533 | 11.495% | 95702 | 12.305% |

    His usage will probably drop a bit but not too much. He's a good stop to Rain, regardless of Tornadus-T. He still handles many top threats well including Politoed, Heatran and Scizor, so I'd say he still deserves his position in A.
  20. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    With Tornadus-T gone it will probably also mean seeing more variations of Rotom-W instead of only seeing specially defensive. Remember Rotom-W is still good with Choice sets (specs and scarf) as well as his bulky attacker set. While his usage may go down, his unpredictability should go up a bit, which will be nice.
  21. Skyfall

    Skyfall

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    I would like to nominate Azumarill for C-rank. This thing can blast through unprepared teams, even outside of rain.

    It has an extremely powerful stab in waterfall, a great priority move in aqua jet, and good coverage moves in ice punch, superpower, and return.

    Here are some damage calculations:

    Show Hide
    252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Sun vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Ninetales (Neutral): 86% - 101% (302 - 356 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 11% chance to OHKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/236Def Leftovers Tentacruel (+Def): 46% - 55% (170 - 201 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 7% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Deoxys (Neutral): 77% - 91% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.


    As you can see, Azumarill can blast through even the bulkiest of OU pokemon, rain or shine, thus deserving at least a C-rank.
  22. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I'm wondering if it would be possible to include a brief description in the OP for each Pokemon explaining why they've received their ranks? It would be very helpful for people wondering why they've receive their ranks without having to scroll through this megathread.
  23. Goodra

    Goodra

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    If it wouldn't be too much trouble for the TC I would love this as well.
  24. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'd like to nominate Scrafty for C Rank. Now, as my name says it, I use this thing, and it works pretty well. He's a pretty damn good DD user; his Speed reaches a pretty fine level, outspeeding 111 Speed by one point, which is pretty neat. He also has Moxie and great coverage in just two moves, so he can definitely pull off a nice sweep. Scrafty also enjoys the fact that the broken as fuck Tornadus-T is now Uber, so this job can be pulled off more easily. The BU set is still somewhat decent, although like CM Reuniclus, it doesn't really stand up to the offensive pressure of this meta, though from my experience, it is still very workable. Of course, Scrafty has his crippling flaws that make him C Rank, that is, a pisspoor Speed stat, meaning even with a boost, there are things that are faster than him, namely Starmie and Scarf Terrakion (does anyone use this thing?). Also, he just doesn't hit hard enough initially, so his inability to hit hard right off the bat does say something. Also, because he NEEDS to set up, Jirachi can cripple him. Not to mention Hippowdon and Skarmory can take a beating from this thing all day. Scrafty certainly has his flaws and this needs support, like Deo-D, as well as a way to deal with the faster speedsters and such. Of course though, Scrafty still has the potential to wreck shit when supported properly, and thus is worthy of at least C Rank.
  25. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    While scrafty seems to work well in theory, in practice it's actually very disappointing. It is neutral to basically all priority and weak to mach punch / vacuum wave, so it's easy to pick it off. Even at +1, as you said, a ton of stuff outspeeds it even unboosted. Way more than you mentioned in fact--starmie, base 120s such as alakazam, weavile and stuff. And basically EVERY scarfer--including, as you said, scarfkion, but also scarfdeo, mence, chomp, even scarftoed. It has low base HP and, even though its defenses are decent, without investment it gets OHKOed by powerful attacks. Fighting attacks are extremely common in this meta as well, so it has a hard time setting up. Even if it does, it still lacks the raw power to break through walls. For example, a +1 LO ice punch vs standard gliscor has only a 50% chance to OHKO--this is a 4x effective +1 LO attack! Max defense gliscor has only an 18% chance to be KOed. Crunch meanwhile does barely 40% to this same gliscor. I can see scrafty as D tier, but even C tier is honestly too high for it imo.

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