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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    With Scizor being the number one used Pokemon right now? No. Too many scarfers and priority in the metagame hurt Alakazam. Maybe if it was bulkier it could do it, but with no real way to stop getting hit its just not good enough for A-tier. Even with sash it's hard to keep alive.

    Alakazam at B-tier.

    Also, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but I'd definitely nominate Keldeo for S-rank, if not for the fact that Sub + CM is extremely hard to get around, with only a few counters in the game that will be forced to take a Hydro Pump or something if behind a sub. In the rain it's even more deadly. Good typing and resistance to rocks is the cherry on the top.
  2. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Hi PK Gaming, I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but is there any reason Espeon is still at C and Xatu is still at B? They have different niches, and I strongly disagree with the notion that one of them outclasses the other.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I wanted to do something about Xatu and dropping it to C-tier, but I ended up forgetting, sorry. You're right, they do completely different things, but my intent was to show that Xatu was just a better Pokemon overall. But as time goes on and Sun ends becoming less relevant, I think I should just go ahead and drop it into C-tier. Thoughts?
  4. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    I have not used Alakazam since the Genesect era, where it was undoubtedly B-tier at best, but now that there's nothing that outspeeds it without a Scarf except for Weavile and Jolteon (when talking about Pokemon that are actually viable in OU), it's probably better than it used to be. From my experience, Scizor is not even that good at checking Alakazam since SashZam just OHKOes with HP Fire, surviving Bullet Punch thanks to the Sash. Being one of the few Pokemon to outspeed ScarfTar without any Speed boosts is pretty cool too, especially since Tyranitar is not going to enjoy Focus Blast (In particular, ScarfTar is OHKOed by any Alakazam and BandTar has a high chance to be OHKOed w/o SR). Doubling up as kind of a revenge killer thanks to hazards being unable to break its Sash is pretty cool too, being able to revenge kill shit like Dragonite/Salamence/RP Landorus (if you have HP Ice) without being locked into said Weak Power Ice. I'm still unsure if it deserves A rank, though, but if it doesn't then I'd say it's high B.

    Also, Super Mario Bro, Espeon does have its advantages over Xatu, but if you're not taking advantage of what Espeon offers (good dual screener, makes Baton Pass teams actually viable) you should probably be using Xatu since it has reliable recovery and can actually switch in on non-Stone Edge Breloom. I think the two are fine where they are. Actually, now that I think about it, Sun teams have become a little less prevalent then they were when everybody was using Lavos Sun, so maybe Xatu should be C-tier now.
  5. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Espeon has already been discussed by me before. Xatu is overall better keep it at B imo
  6. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    That sounds fine. I would prefer moving Espeon up to B-rank and leaving Xatu where it is, though. Xatu is great at blocking Deoxys-D, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Breloom, while Espeon can set up fast screens and single-handedly makes BP teams viable (I've actually peaked on the ladder and qualified for suspects with full BP...it's not a gimmick).

    But yea...Xatu down to C also works.

    Those two roles of Espeon are a pretty big deal. What I can glean from what you said is:

    Xatu --> better defensively
    Espeon --> better offensively

    Doesn't mean one is better than the other.
  7. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Full BP isn't a gimmick but it isn't diverse either, so I'm always reluctant to call it a play style where creativity it extremely limited.

    Dual Screens is legitimate so I do suppose it should go up to B, but I still feel even offensive teams have more of a niche from Xatu. Although CMSub pass Espeon isn't bad in sun!

    I'm just on the fence with it. I find Xatu has more utility. SMB, what kind of teams besides full BP have you used Espeon on? Is its niche better than Xatu's? Just curious since admittingly I don't use Espeon all too much bar BP.
  8. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I disagree; I've actually built many full BP teams that all function differently from each other. My best team is slow and bulky, and uses mixed defensive Zapdos and specially defensive Venomoth as speed boosters. If I manage to get in a couple of defensive boosts, the team becomes incredibly hard to break, unless my opponent crits.

    On a different team, I use different EV spreads, movesets, and Pokemon. Smeargle and Venomoth pass Quiver Dance, while Umbreon and Espeon are the main receivers. Ironically, Umbreon has an offensive EV spread, while Espeon is max HP / max Def Bold; this way, they can both hit decently hard with Stored Power. Even if the team does have a defensive core, I can't help but feel it is too fragile for my tastes, which is why I like my other BP team better.

    Hyper offense. Setting up fast screens while blocking hazards is something nothing else is able to do, and it lets DD Nite come in with its Multiscale intact. Admittedly, HO isn't my thing, but I've faced some that use Espeon as the DS lead, and they are nasty.

    I wouldn't say Espeon's niche is better than Xatu's, but it isn't worse either. It's just different.
  9. typon77

    typon77

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    So I guess I got end-of-the-page syndrome on my Landorus post. Anyways, what do people think of Landorus in S-Rank?

    EDIT: My Original Post
    I guess I wasnt at the end of the page :x
  10. mcdanger

    mcdanger

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    I agree with waddle, a majority of his checks/counters are trapped and KOed by tyrannitar, or with rain, its sub calm mind set can muscle through them, bar jellicent, however it can sweep without rain. Overall its as threatening if not more then terrakion as it can surpass terrakions power with rain support, while requiring little support from the rest of the team
  11. urdrakonis

    urdrakonis

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    I have a problem with this statement. Not saying Keldeo isn't insanely powerful, but Terrakion has access to Rock Polish and Swords Dance--the same boosting moves that let Groudon 6-0 Ubers teams. It also has access to the SubSalac + Swords Dance combo. Its only real weakness is that it can't get passed priority (Babiri/Chople SD is a good set though).
  12. mcdanger

    mcdanger

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    While keldeo does lack rock polish/swords dance like terra, it also lacks weakness to priority moves, taking neutral from mach punch and resisting bullet punch and ice shard. This may eb a weak point, but keldeos access to secret sword i think is critical to its success, as otherwise blissey would wall it and it would have to depend on focus blast. Also keldeo can run a salac berry like terrakion effectively.
  13. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    No worries, Landorus has been in S-tier for almost a full day now.

    In other news, I moved Espeon to B-tier. I think being a staple of an entire playstyle (a good one mind you, BP is kind of cheap) warrants B-tier at the very least.

    I'm still deliberating on Xatu...
  14. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    Tiny nitpick but do you mean s tier?
    I think alakazam is fine in B. It's good but really vulnerable to scizor and all sorts of scarfers, not to mention jirachi. Relying on focus blast for coverage is also kinda annoying. Alakazam is really good but I wouldn't put it in a tier with stuff like the therians + Keldeo. Definitely one of the better B tier residents, but I think you should leave alakazam in the B tier.

    EDIT: mcdanger sure keldeo is hard to wall but since your comparing it to terrakion what walls terrakion that isn't completely niche anyway? Terrakion has a way better STAB combo, too. SubCM keldeo is beaten by salamence, dnite, lati@s and gyarados(plus less common things like toxicroak) unless it has +6 which no smart player will let it do. Despite resisting ice and steel, keldeo is vulnerable to priority users like CB dragonite and technician breloom. I think keldeo should stay in A rank, though if you go strictly by the definitions it is S since it was a suspect(though it wasn't broken at all in my opinion).
  15. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    True, however if you look real closely, you'll notice that the Dragons all get boned by Ice moves with reasonable power, and Gyarados is walled by Rotom-W. Sure, it takes a little teamwork to get it done but you could say the same for Terrakion (who I will say is definitely harder to wall but has its limits) however it's an excellent sweeper outside of SubCM, I just listed that one because without one of the aforementioned Pokemon it's extremely hard to get around.

    Also if we're comparing Terrakion to Keldeo, Terrakion is definitely the winner, though we're comparing a physical attacker to a special attacker, so there's going to be a lot of different counters. For a special attacker, I still think Keldeo should be S. Most notably, it's much harder to revenge kill, especially after a Calm Mind boost. Personal opinion, though. It's why I asked :3
  16. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Screw Water Druddigon
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    I'm not exactly sure where Keldeo should really be, but I do think it is somewhat worthy of S-Rank. Still, not so sure.

    On a note of "Let's fill the D-Rank with some more Pokemon"...

    I'd like to nominate Ninjask for D-Rank. Ninjask is more or less only known for his famous specific niche: Passing Speed boosts. Ninjask is pretty decent at his annoying niche, which can work, but he has very noticable flaws that make him mediocre elsewhere. These include: SR weakness, Taunt bait, suspectible to phazing, etc. He is also only capable of only doing his very specific task and fails at anything more than that. So yeah, overall, Ninjask is more or less a niche Pokemon, and is decent at doing it. Ninjask for D-Rank.

    I'd also like to nominate Quagsire for D-Rank. Quaggy is indeed usable in OU, but like Ninjask, he holds a very specific niche in the OU metagame. His only good niche is checking boosting sweepers: this includes SD Terrakion, MoxieMence, and I guess SD Scizor as well. Outside of that, Quagsire is pretty bad. He gets his ass handed to Keldeo, Tornadus, Breloom, and all the other special threats or Grass-types. Nonetheless, like the ninja bug, Quagsire is a Pokemon who, although usable, has a very specific niche. Quagsire for D-Rank.
  17. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    Quagsire is a very undderated wall, actually. All it takes is a Stock Pile or two and you can annoy the opponent to death. C-rank at least.

    Also, Victini at C-rank is a disgrace. Have you faced Trick Room Victini under the Sun? Shit's impossible to handle late game.
  18. 725roy

    725roy

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    I would nominate Virizion to move up to B-Rank seeing as it's capable of covering most rain threats with either of it's sets, it's able to cover Tyranitar, and Politoed, as well as sand threats. Not to mention since Torny-T was banned from OU, Virizion's main counter is now gone, and it is able to thrive, especially in Sun. Again, Virizion to move up to B-Rank
  19. mcdanger

    mcdanger

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    I do get what your saying but i want to say this, can terrakion sweep a team from turn 1? Landorus therian, and gliscor both wall terrakion, offensive pivot landorus is a 2-3hko with stone edge at +1 iirc, so you need something to KO them, its the same for keldeo. Like how terrakions counters are mostly handled by one pokemon, generally a water, a majority of keldeo`s are handled by tyrannitar, or scizor. Even tho keldeo needs 1-2 pokemon to successfully sweep, so doesnt terrakion. Yes keldeos stabs are resisted by more common threats, but keldeo also gets a boost from rain helping it muscle through threats like salamence. Keldeo has arguably superior typing as he cant be revenged by common priorities like terrakion, while his weaknesses are a little less common then terrakions, which gives him a bit more staying power.

    and I share your opinion that hes not broken, hes just very powerful under rain
  20. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    SubCM Keldeo has two counters, and that's Water Absorb Jellicent and SpDef Amoonguss.

    Keldeo under rain is stupid strong (open)
    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Salamence (Neutral): 62% - 73% (207 - 245 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 52% - 61% (173 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Latios (Neutral): 52% - 62% (159 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 37% - 44% (138 - 162 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    252SpAtk +2 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 50% - 59% (183 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.


    Bulky Latias is a fairly solid check, but hey, you might find some jack-off who runs Hydro Pump, in which case... 252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 47% - 56% (174 - 206 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    I don't need to tell you what that does at +2 or if Latias isn't investing in bulk. With Torn-T's departure, I would not be adverse to Keldeo's induction to S-tier. I mean, unless we start getting shit like SpDef Tentacruel, Keldeo's got TWO hard counters.
  21. Satisfaction

    Satisfaction

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    Keldeo is also one of the few pokemon that wont get revenge killed by choice scarf ditto, which while it may be an uncommon threat atm, can take out every dragon as well as landorous with hp ice, and terakion. It not being easily revenge killed gives it alot of staying power, and since aside from the calm mind set keldeo has no problem switching out at any time. Resistance to Sr is always nice but the real niche about keldeo seems to be its usually at the top of its game right from the getgo.
  22. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Wait, how does Keldeo not have Ditto problems? Especially if it gets up a calm mind or two, Secret Sword will destroy it. Most Keldeo can be 2HKO'd by its own Secret Sword while not OHKO'ing Ditto in return-- so yeah, it can easily be revenged by Ditto; especially if it has a bit of prior damage.
  23. namehtmas

    namehtmas

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    I think Mamoswine should be moved up to A-tier. Take a look down the current A-tier pokemon. Mamoswine threatens almost every single one of them, and Rotom-W is really the only one that can switch out without fear. I know that B-tier is for pokemon that have a specific offensive niche which a lot of people will say Mamo falls under. But quite frankly, Mamo is anti-meta right now and not only revenge kills, but it keeps certain threats out of the game. No one is going to set up with their RP Lando or DDmence with Mamo still looming on the other team. It has such a heavy, heavy presence in the metagame right now that I think it's certainly outgrown it's niche factor. It won't sweep, no, but it performs a role that's very important that no other mon can do right now.
  24. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    Ditto is not exactly a real threat in the meta-game. Well, not "real threat", "non existent threat" would be the exact term I would use. It's highly underrated, but it's usage is far too low to be worrisome, especially when you consider that most Pokemon have trouble with Ditto. Honestly that's like me saying that Tangrowth causes problems for physical attackers. Like, no shit, but it's not a real impending threat on the current metagame due to low usage.

    Also, I like the big furry Mastodon mammoth as much as the next guy, though with its only resist being Poison and Ice and its weaknesses being the common Fighting-types, Water-types and Steel-type (A.K.A. Scizor) and its only decent bulk, it still gets 2HKO'd at worst by most real threats. Great Dragon killer, but otherwise it's not getting a whole lot done. I'd say leave it at B in terms of fairness, though I certainly wouldn't oppose too much if it got A-rank.

    Also that link was completely unnecessary but I really like that song :3
  25. Meru

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    Why is Keldeo not S-rank? He thrives in Rain and Sand and is probably the best Scarfer available at the moment. Only beaten by Scarf Latios which has a shit ton of downsides.
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