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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. urdrakonis

    urdrakonis formerly mantzik32

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    I have a problem with this statement. Not saying Keldeo isn't insanely powerful, but Terrakion has access to Rock Polish and Swords Dance--the same boosting moves that let Groudon 6-0 Ubers teams. It also has access to the SubSalac + Swords Dance combo. Its only real weakness is that it can't get passed priority (Babiri/Chople SD is a good set though).
  2. mcdanger

    mcdanger

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    While keldeo does lack rock polish/swords dance like terra, it also lacks weakness to priority moves, taking neutral from mach punch and resisting bullet punch and ice shard. This may eb a weak point, but keldeos access to secret sword i think is critical to its success, as otherwise blissey would wall it and it would have to depend on focus blast. Also keldeo can run a salac berry like terrakion effectively.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    No worries, Landorus has been in S-tier for almost a full day now.

    In other news, I moved Espeon to B-tier. I think being a staple of an entire playstyle (a good one mind you, BP is kind of cheap) warrants B-tier at the very least.

    I'm still deliberating on Xatu...
  4. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    Tiny nitpick but do you mean s tier?
    I think alakazam is fine in B. It's good but really vulnerable to scizor and all sorts of scarfers, not to mention jirachi. Relying on focus blast for coverage is also kinda annoying. Alakazam is really good but I wouldn't put it in a tier with stuff like the therians + Keldeo. Definitely one of the better B tier residents, but I think you should leave alakazam in the B tier.

    EDIT: mcdanger sure keldeo is hard to wall but since your comparing it to terrakion what walls terrakion that isn't completely niche anyway? Terrakion has a way better STAB combo, too. SubCM keldeo is beaten by salamence, dnite, lati@s and gyarados(plus less common things like toxicroak) unless it has +6 which no smart player will let it do. Despite resisting ice and steel, keldeo is vulnerable to priority users like CB dragonite and technician breloom. I think keldeo should stay in A rank, though if you go strictly by the definitions it is S since it was a suspect(though it wasn't broken at all in my opinion).
  5. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    True, however if you look real closely, you'll notice that the Dragons all get boned by Ice moves with reasonable power, and Gyarados is walled by Rotom-W. Sure, it takes a little teamwork to get it done but you could say the same for Terrakion (who I will say is definitely harder to wall but has its limits) however it's an excellent sweeper outside of SubCM, I just listed that one because without one of the aforementioned Pokemon it's extremely hard to get around.

    Also if we're comparing Terrakion to Keldeo, Terrakion is definitely the winner, though we're comparing a physical attacker to a special attacker, so there's going to be a lot of different counters. For a special attacker, I still think Keldeo should be S. Most notably, it's much harder to revenge kill, especially after a Calm Mind boost. Personal opinion, though. It's why I asked :3
  6. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
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    I'm not exactly sure where Keldeo should really be, but I do think it is somewhat worthy of S-Rank. Still, not so sure.

    On a note of "Let's fill the D-Rank with some more Pokemon"...

    I'd like to nominate Ninjask for D-Rank. Ninjask is more or less only known for his famous specific niche: Passing Speed boosts. Ninjask is pretty decent at his annoying niche, which can work, but he has very noticable flaws that make him mediocre elsewhere. These include: SR weakness, Taunt bait, suspectible to phazing, etc. He is also only capable of only doing his very specific task and fails at anything more than that. So yeah, overall, Ninjask is more or less a niche Pokemon, and is decent at doing it. Ninjask for D-Rank.

    I'd also like to nominate Quagsire for D-Rank. Quaggy is indeed usable in OU, but like Ninjask, he holds a very specific niche in the OU metagame. His only good niche is checking boosting sweepers: this includes SD Terrakion, MoxieMence, and I guess SD Scizor as well. Outside of that, Quagsire is pretty bad. He gets his ass handed to Keldeo, Tornadus, Breloom, and all the other special threats or Grass-types. Nonetheless, like the ninja bug, Quagsire is a Pokemon who, although usable, has a very specific niche. Quagsire for D-Rank.
  7. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    Quagsire is a very undderated wall, actually. All it takes is a Stock Pile or two and you can annoy the opponent to death. C-rank at least.

    Also, Victini at C-rank is a disgrace. Have you faced Trick Room Victini under the Sun? Shit's impossible to handle late game.
  8. 725roy

    725roy

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    I would nominate Virizion to move up to B-Rank seeing as it's capable of covering most rain threats with either of it's sets, it's able to cover Tyranitar, and Politoed, as well as sand threats. Not to mention since Torny-T was banned from OU, Virizion's main counter is now gone, and it is able to thrive, especially in Sun. Again, Virizion to move up to B-Rank
  9. mcdanger

    mcdanger

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    I do get what your saying but i want to say this, can terrakion sweep a team from turn 1? Landorus therian, and gliscor both wall terrakion, offensive pivot landorus is a 2-3hko with stone edge at +1 iirc, so you need something to KO them, its the same for keldeo. Like how terrakions counters are mostly handled by one pokemon, generally a water, a majority of keldeo`s are handled by tyrannitar, or scizor. Even tho keldeo needs 1-2 pokemon to successfully sweep, so doesnt terrakion. Yes keldeos stabs are resisted by more common threats, but keldeo also gets a boost from rain helping it muscle through threats like salamence. Keldeo has arguably superior typing as he cant be revenged by common priorities like terrakion, while his weaknesses are a little less common then terrakions, which gives him a bit more staying power.

    and I share your opinion that hes not broken, hes just very powerful under rain
  10. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    SubCM Keldeo has two counters, and that's Water Absorb Jellicent and SpDef Amoonguss.

    Keldeo under rain is stupid strong (open)
    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Salamence (Neutral): 62% - 73% (207 - 245 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 52% - 61% (173 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Latios (Neutral): 52% - 62% (159 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 37% - 44% (138 - 162 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    252SpAtk +2 Keldeo (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 50% - 59% (183 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.


    Bulky Latias is a fairly solid check, but hey, you might find some jack-off who runs Hydro Pump, in which case... 252SpAtk +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 47% - 56% (174 - 206 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    I don't need to tell you what that does at +2 or if Latias isn't investing in bulk. With Torn-T's departure, I would not be adverse to Keldeo's induction to S-tier. I mean, unless we start getting shit like SpDef Tentacruel, Keldeo's got TWO hard counters.
  11. Satisfaction

    Satisfaction

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    Keldeo is also one of the few pokemon that wont get revenge killed by choice scarf ditto, which while it may be an uncommon threat atm, can take out every dragon as well as landorous with hp ice, and terakion. It not being easily revenge killed gives it alot of staying power, and since aside from the calm mind set keldeo has no problem switching out at any time. Resistance to Sr is always nice but the real niche about keldeo seems to be its usually at the top of its game right from the getgo.
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Wait, how does Keldeo not have Ditto problems? Especially if it gets up a calm mind or two, Secret Sword will destroy it. Most Keldeo can be 2HKO'd by its own Secret Sword while not OHKO'ing Ditto in return-- so yeah, it can easily be revenged by Ditto; especially if it has a bit of prior damage.
  13. namehtmas

    namehtmas

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    I think Mamoswine should be moved up to A-tier. Take a look down the current A-tier pokemon. Mamoswine threatens almost every single one of them, and Rotom-W is really the only one that can switch out without fear. I know that B-tier is for pokemon that have a specific offensive niche which a lot of people will say Mamo falls under. But quite frankly, Mamo is anti-meta right now and not only revenge kills, but it keeps certain threats out of the game. No one is going to set up with their RP Lando or DDmence with Mamo still looming on the other team. It has such a heavy, heavy presence in the metagame right now that I think it's certainly outgrown it's niche factor. It won't sweep, no, but it performs a role that's very important that no other mon can do right now.
  14. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    Ditto is not exactly a real threat in the meta-game. Well, not "real threat", "non existent threat" would be the exact term I would use. It's highly underrated, but it's usage is far too low to be worrisome, especially when you consider that most Pokemon have trouble with Ditto. Honestly that's like me saying that Tangrowth causes problems for physical attackers. Like, no shit, but it's not a real impending threat on the current metagame due to low usage.

    Also, I like the big furry Mastodon mammoth as much as the next guy, though with its only resist being Poison and Ice and its weaknesses being the common Fighting-types, Water-types and Steel-type (A.K.A. Scizor) and its only decent bulk, it still gets 2HKO'd at worst by most real threats. Great Dragon killer, but otherwise it's not getting a whole lot done. I'd say leave it at B in terms of fairness, though I certainly wouldn't oppose too much if it got A-rank.

    Also that link was completely unnecessary but I really like that song :3
  15. Meru

    Meru
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    Why is Keldeo not S-rank? He thrives in Rain and Sand and is probably the best Scarfer available at the moment. Only beaten by Scarf Latios which has a shit ton of downsides.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    You forgot Keldeo's best counter in OU, SpD Celebi, a top tier Pokemon that cannot be even Pursuit trapped if running Baton Pass, which is a hard counter to any Keldeo set. You also have RestTalk Gyarados and CM Latias who are superb checks and stop it most of the time.

    EDIT: Forgot Toxicroak, which counters SubCM Keldeo too. That's four counters for you and a fuckton of checks.
  17. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    The requirements to be in S-Rank are:

    Keldeo can't sweep alone. He has a decent amount of counters (this pokemons usage has increased because of Keldeo): Latios, Latias, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, Amoongus, Celebi, etc. Just thing about it. These pokemons are hard to take down without the help of a powerful trapper and they are very bulky.

    Keldeo's main set it Choiced. He has not multiple roles that can be performed effectively. If you use Sub + CM you need to get rid of HP ice and hydro pump, so dragonite can be considered as a counter and you have a bad time playing against Lati@s.

    I agree that Keldeo is awesome and is the best scarfer, but he doesn't have sufficient capability to become S-Rank.
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Shit, my bad. Well, best counter besides Water Absorb Jellicent. And I will admit that I should have done a bulkier Gyarados spread. But at the same time, if Keldeo gets up to +2 or +3 in the rain, even Latias is going to have a hard time. Best to leave it to Jellicent, Amoonguss, and Celebi.

    To be fair, I haven't seen Celebi in a long goddamn time because her most common set is her physically defensive set and it is very obviously steam-rolled by Torn-T. So I think we'll be seeing more of it now.
  19. Takion

    Takion

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    I'm going to nominate Bisharp for D-Rank

    [​IMG]

    This pokemon is a great counter to Latios, Celebi, Alakazam, Gengar...assuming none of these pokemon are Focus Sashed. It's ability allows it to get a boost of intimidate allowing it sucker punch a landorus-t to death.

    Here are some calculations (some of these consist of swords dance)


    +3 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 381-448 (119.43 - 140.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after intimidate)

    252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 338-398 (111.92 - 131.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 516-608 (133.67 - 157.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 372-438 (124.41 - 146.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 306-360 (95.92 - 112.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 336-396 (101.51 - 119.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 291-343 (90.09 - 106.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 291-343 (81.28 - 95.81%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 522-614 (129.52 - 152.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 560-660 (138.61 - 163.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Despite all this this lil guy gets countered HARD by Breloom, Conkeldur, Keldeo, and Lucario. All of which are commonly seen in the OU.

    Thoughts opinions?
  20. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Alakazam and Gengar may carry Focus Blast, which means that Bisharp isn't exactly a counter to them... Celebi can also be seen using Earth Power or Hidden Power Fire, both of which can heavily dent, if not OHKO Bisharp.
  21. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Used Bisharp before, it really is a decent choice. The only problem I see is how bad Sucker Punch can be, especially against defensive Pokémon, or those who can predict around it. Using it at the wrong time can leave your opponent a free opportunity to sweep you. Dragonite is another huge counter because you can't actually do anything to it unless it attacks you, so it could set up while you try to do the same/Low Kick it to death.
    That being said, your calcs don't lie. Bisharp's typing has problems, but it does have strong points, and its stats certainly aren't bad either.
    Also, DFA, if Alakazam and Gengar have their sashes broken, Bisharp OHKOs them with Sucker Punch due to priority. Gengar can do some Disable shenanigans, though.
  22. Takion

    Takion

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    Too all of your arguments, Sucker punch is priority.

    If the focus sashes are broken then Alakazam, and Gengar have no chance.

    About Celebi:

    Celebi would need to be fully invested in Special attack to OHKO a Bisharp.

    While Bisharp:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 367-432 (103.38 - 121.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Yes, I'd also like to point out that all my calculations were without Life Orb.
  23. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
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    Man, I was thinking about making this nomination earlier. Anyways, I agree with this proposal. Bisharp can definitely be a dangerous Pokemon, and is more than capable of sweeping teams. But of course, he has very noticeable flaws (but don't necessarily make it more trouble than it's worth), like that nasty Fighting weakness, poor Speed, reliance on an unreliable move. But yeah, Bisharp has his niche as a usable SuckerSweeper, and is one of those niche Pokemon, and definitely deserves to be in the realms of Chandelure and Kabutops.

    And on the note of D-Rank, I also have two additional nominations for the D-Rank, which must be taken notice.
  24. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

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    Time for a twist!

    I vote Porygon2 for at least C Rank, Porygon2 is one of the few behemoths left around here. Despite being very underused, OU is still P2's place to shine.

    The Standard set:

    Porygon2@Eviolite
    Trace, Bold Nature
    252 HP/ 184 Def/ 72 Sp. Def
    -T-Bolt/Discharge
    -Icebeam
    -Toxic/T-wave
    -Recover

    Preferred Set:
    Porygon2@Eviolite
    Trace, Calm Nature
    252 HP/ 6 Def/ 252 Sp. Def
    -T-Bolt/Discharge
    -Icebeam
    -Toxic/T-wave
    -Recover

    The good:
    -Laughs at dragons, even Hydreigon can't do much except if it has Focus Blast and even then. A Dragon Meteor + Focus Blast doesn't KO, except if it happens to have White Herb (I've seen it happen).
    -Rotom-W will be left sad, only fearing Toxic, Trick and possibly WoW.
    -Walls a good portion of a rain team, making a great anti-rain combo together with a fighting-resist and Kingdra: walling Politoed, Rotom-W, Thunderus (without any nasty plot's though, not to mention Focust Blast, again), Keldeo if locked into anything other than Secret Sword, Latios and Dragonite.
    -Posseses the ability to permanentely cripple jellicent and make Gliscor fear for it's life.
    -Walls some 'weaker' psysical attackers, like Mamoswine and Scizor: i.e. those that do not directly have a super effective move.
    -Can tank Super Effective (Random) Superpowers like a pro.
    -Can Recover of Drizzle-Pumps reasonably well, though luck is a bit involved
    -Makes Heatran and Vaporeon cry.
    -Trace, just Trace.
    -Has good enough Sp. Atk to make use of the boltbeam combo, though do not expect that many 2hko's.
    -Capable of beating Venusaur if it has already used sleep powder.

    The Bad:
    -No real supportive moves other than status.
    -Needs another wall to help out, pokémon like Jellicent and Celebi come to mind: those that can nail fighting-types hard.
    -Needs some help with status, as P2 fears toxic.
    -Has trouble switching in, taking full SR and (Toxic) Spikes damage. Making a spinner very much a must, though this can work in your favor as well.
    -Not the best counter to rain, but merely a 'check' (God do I hate this term)
    -Has some staying trouble if below 50% health
    -Useless against several teams, especially sand and hail.
    -Lack of Leftovers really make P2 bite the bust.
    -Keldeo
    -Calm Mind sweepers are the bane to P2's existence, or just boosters in general.
    -Most Fighting types, especially Terrakion.

    Will probably post some calcs later.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    What I was saying is that Bisharp is not a counter to them because a counter is something that can switch on anything that a threat commonly uses, and Bisharp cannot switch safely on Alakazam or Gengar because they may be often seen carrying Focus Blast.

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