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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Except Infernape is horribly frail, so the OHKO on him is not anything to write home about. A resisted OHKO on Terrakion or Garchomp would be huge, but the Pokémon in question is already a wet paper bag.
  2. G-Von

    G-Von

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    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion in sun: 287-337 (88.58 - 104.01%) 31.25% chance to OHKO

    Obviously his Scarf set is used more, but with SF boosting his attack and negating LO recoil, I would say this is a reasonable calc.

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in sun: 274-322 (76.75 - 90.19%) guaranteed 2HKO

    That's still impressive to be honest. I think C-rank is fair for this baboon.
  3. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    It gets even scarier when you realize that CB is viable as well.

    252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion in the sun: 101.85 - 120.06%
    That's an 0HKO with a Jolly nature.
    Plus, he isn't limited for coverage, he has access to U-Turn, and he has a decent speed tier, even if it is a little lacking. Imo, he's got a niche for sun teams that just need bulky stuff gone. D-Tier, at the very least.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Nah CB is a bit pointless when you can use LO without the recoil.

    Anyway i agree with Darmanitan for C rank! I thought it was already there, as it is one of the most fierce sun abusers.

    And i have posted this somewhen in the past but it got ignored:

    So Slowking for C rank!

    Finally, i agree with Ninjask and Quagsire in D rank. Ninjask has a strong nihce on BP pass teams, and is one of the main reasons that those teams are such a bitch to deal with. Quagsire has the niche of stopping several threatening set-up sweepers such as DDnite, DDMence, NP Thund-T, and SD Terrakion, which no other wall in the tier can claim to stop.
  5. BluhBluh

    BluhBluh

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    The problem with Abomasnow is that he's both fragile and slow, which is not a good thing in a metagame where fast, heavy hitters usually prevail. Just comparing him with other weather inducers isn't enough. You have to see how he fares against the whole metagame. And with priority users like Scizor and Breloom running around in the metagame, Abomasnow can't survive alone. Therefore, he needs bulky team support that can take down these threats, which is difficult in a hail team, but is possible in anti-weather. Yes, he's the only effective hail inducer in OU, but he needs significant support to last long.
  6. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Yea, I agree with alexwolf in moving Slowking to C. Its high special defense allows it to be a very solid Keldeo/Specs Politoed counter, and Dragon Tail is a nifty move that Slowbro doesn't have access to. It definitely has strong competition with other bulky Waters (like Jellicent), but I think Regenerator alone keeps Slowking in contention.
  7. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene +Dread Arceus: the edgier the name, the higher the crit rate
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    Alright. I was browsing through the list, and I noticed that it didn't include Empoleon of all things. So, I'd like to nominate Empoleon for at least C Tier.

    [​IMG]
    Empoleon @ Petaya Berry | Torrent
    Modest | 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe | 0 Atk
    Substitute | Agility | Surf | Ice Beam


    Empoleon can serve as a somewhat decent special wall that tends to be overshadowed by Jirachi and Heatran, and it can also serve as one of the best special sweepers in the tier, thanks to its SubPetaya set, as seen above, which will be the main focus of my post. First, some damage calcs (these assume that Petaya Berry and Torrent have been activated, and rain is down on the field, unless specified otherwise):
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 180-212 (59.4 - 69.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 379-447 (93.81 - 110.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi in rain: 189-222 (46.78 - 54.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 301-355 (46.16 - 54.44%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 262-310 (40.8 - 48.28%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in rain: 220-259 (60.43 - 71.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in rain: 281-331 (69.55 - 81.93%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Slowking in rain: 204-241 (51.77 - 61.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 217-256 (58.96 - 69.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

    Now, these damage calcs may look impressive, but there are few Pokemon that Empoleon simply isn't getting past. Those Pokemon are Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Jellicent, and Jynx. In addition, faster Fighting-types, of which there are plenty in OU, give Empoleon problems, thanks to its weakness to Steel-type moves and only okay speed. Now, proper team support (i.e. entry hazards and something to take care of Fighters) can help Empoleon overcome this problem.

    For teammates, I'd say that Politoed is the best candidate for team support since Drizzle powers up Empoleon's Surfs to astronomical levels. In addition, Politoed itself can act as a lure for the first three Pokemon, smacking them hard with a powerful Hidden Power Grass. Thundurus-T would be Empoleon's next best teammate, since it resists all of Empoleon's weaknesses and can clear out bulky waters which Empoleon has trouble with using its powerful Electric STAB (if it got Hurricane, it could also clear out Grass-types, but that's a different story for a different day...). Gothitelle is another partner to be considered, since it can trap and kill certain threats that can impede an Empoleon sweep (e.g. Breloom, Specs Keldeo, Terrakion).

    tl;dr: Empoleon for C Tier at the very least.
  8. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Those calcs are not that impressive. Toxicroak, Slowking, Blissey, Chansey, Rotom-w and Celebi will ko you before you ko them. Or worse, paralize you and spam recover moves until you are fully paralized, and then ko you. Tentacruel beats you with a burn or if it has Protect. Not to mention the other things you mentioned that Empoleon will never get past, as well as revenge killers. Oh, and you have to keep rain up, and it only works once. Now lets look at the tier descriptions:

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

    (Toxic)Spikes, Gothetelle support, rain support, a spinblocker, and checks to the rest of the metagame is simply too much to fit in one team. Empy could be effective with the right support, but the team probably wouldnt win alot. As for the defensive set, ive never tried it or played against it, so it probably isnt that great. I dont see how it isnt outclassed by Ferrothorn. Empy for D tier.
  9. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene +Dread Arceus: the edgier the name, the higher the crit rate
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    I disagree with you. Empoleon doesn't need Spikes, a spin-blocker, and Gothitelle to pull off a sweep. I just said that it would be an idea I'd recommend. All it really needs is SR (pretty much a necessity for every team), something that can weaken Blissey (which isn't exactly common these days, so this could be ignored with almost no repercussions), rain (Politoed can act as a wallbreaker or defensive pivot that can help Empoleon and some other teammates sweep, so no, it isn't useless), and a teammate that can beat whatever Empoleon's coverage move cannot cover (bulky waters if Ice Beam is being run, and dragons / Grass-types if HP Grass is being run).

    To rebut your argument of paralysis crippling Empoleon, Empoleon will usually be behind a sub by the time they switch in, allowing it to get a speed boost with Agility. If they break the sub, then Empoleon can simply sub down until Petaya and Torrent activate, allowing it to unleash its full power. Also, you're not supposed to set up Empoleon when those threats are still at full health. It's supposed to act as a late-game sweeper, not a mid-game wall-breaker (but it could serve as one under extreme cases if you have teammates which can clean house once it's done).

    Also, if you're trying to deny the success of a team that revolves around Empoleon, I peaked at #18 on the OU ladder under my testing alt .eman sdrawkcab using a hyper offense team that gears toward facilitating an Empoleon sweep without using Spikes, a spinblocker, and / or Gothitelle. Yes, I won't deny that it only works once and that the defensive sets are outclassed by Ferrothorn, but its resistances and incredible power should land it in at least the C tier, which is defined as "C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks." Empoleon clearly fits this definition to a tee.
  10. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i can definitely support empoleon for c-tier as well, surprised it isn't there already. subpetaya is a legit set, man i remember using that back in the early bw2 days as a late game sweeper plus solid answer to choiced torn-t, keldeo, etc. since its special defense is pretty real too. would just like to point out that, as a secondary option for the last slot, grass knot is possible over ice beam since dragons really aren't getting as much usage as a few months ago, and without it jellicent and gastrodon run all over this set. besides, at +1 with rain up in torrent range, surf is doing about 70% to latios, so get a little residual damage off early and it's no longer an obstacle. point is, empoleon's definitely a threatening sweeper that can be a nice utility check to common stuff and set up easier than some might think. once it's in torrent range, hardly anything can switch in freely, and ohkos are abundant, especially with a little hazard support.
  11. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Oh don't mind me, i'm just playing catchup

    Massive update
    ============================
    Abomasnow up from C-tier ==> B-tier
    Cloyster down from B-tier ==> C-tier
    Added Darmanitan to C-tier
    Added Empoleon to C-tier
    Added Slowking to C-tier
    Added Togekiss to C-tier
    Added Bisharp To D-tier
    Added Ninjask to D-tier
    Added Quagsire to D-tier
    ============================

    Abomasnow: I think the fact that it owns its own weather style (however niche it is) should warrant being placed in at least B-tier, if not A. Aboma's not bad in BW OU, in addition to making Kyurem-B ridiculous, it matches up well against every weather-starter. (they can't switch in)

    Cloyster: Cloyster was B-tier during the Garchomp sand veil test-era, back when Dragons were everywhere, but I think it's sunken to C-tier in this rain/hazard infested meta. There aren't as many setup opportunities, and there are one too many Pokemon that bar +2 Cloyster from sweeping.
  12. False Sense

    False Sense

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    No mention of Hydreigon? There was a lot of debate over that...
  13. yee

    yee
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    I'm starting to think Keldeo really needs to be S-Tier. Specs does this to Offensive Gyarados in Rain for reference- 66.2% - 77.9%. Gyarados is not a specially frail mon, it's an extremely reliable check to special water moves in a pinch and should not ever be risking a OHKO from a Water move after SR. The only thing that can switch into Keldeo without risking being set-up or Pursuit bait is Amoonguss, which isn't a bad choice but when it's the only one and not very common you see a problem.

    I'd also put Chomp in S-Tier if Terrak is there. To explain how I see it- your typical top tier powerhouses like Salamence / Garchomp / Terrakion etc. over the past two gens have had a familiar blend of crazy power and speed. When you use Lando-I for the first time, you notice it has 20-30% more free choice power than all of them thanks to lacking Life Orb recoil. It is a very clear strength level above them, like Keldeo you have to jump a little when it's making the other big boys you're used to look not overpowered anymore. I seperate Lando-I and Keldeo from those other guys, but if we choose to include all of them in the highest tier, which I would be OK with, I think Garchomp needs to be grouped with them. SD and CB are uncounterable in Rain while still packing very usable bulk, not letting it get revenged for free and letting it very easily get hits off. Terrakion is strong but very counter-able, doesn't have an advantage typing-wise, and only a very slight power x speed advantage. I'd say Chomp made up for it already but Rough Skin is enough icing on the cake- as I learned not so long ago this will let LO SD SR sets blast through a physical Forry trying to spin in 2 hits with Outrage, not to mention all the goodie damage you get against U-Turners and general jabs Garchomp is tough enough to handle.

    To be clear the reason I'm ok with not seperating them despite finding Landorus / Keldeo's power more ridiculous is that they all feel similarly easy to use to great effect. They all boast longevity, wallbreaking skills, and cleaning skills.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Agreeing with yee about everything. Both Keldeo and Garchomp have incredible power, bulk, and versatility, they are easily the most easy to use Pokemon, and the most destructive.

    Also yee there are actually three Pokemon that can wall Keldeo and don't give a damn about Pursuit trapping: Amoonguss, Baton Pass Celebi, and BU Toxicroak.
  15. Meru

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    Roserade can be speed EV'd to not care about Pursuit trapping. And unlike the other counters, it's probably the only Keldeo counter that can harm Keldeo regardless of it switching out thanks to Toxic Spikes.

    I'd never make it your only Keldeo counter, but my Roserade has been used to great effect alongside Latias, as Roserade can take Rotom-W and Keldeo without being susceptible to early-game Pursuits.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Roserade is a counter to Scarf and Leftovers CM versions, but not to Specs and LO versions. Still works fine, just gotta take your time and scout for Keldeo's set, and possibly have another bulkier water resistor.
  17. Meru

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    Might as well use this opportunity to nominate Roserade for C-rank. Her Toxic Spikes destroy teams that don't have Tentacruel or Venusaur and her Poison-Typing prevents Tentacruel's from ruining yours. Sleep Powder is akin to a free knockout with BW mechanics. Her special bulk allows her to range from shaky revenge checking to hard countering various threats: Keldeo, Rotom-W, Politoed, Gastrodon, Magnezone, Thundurus, Jellicent, Jolteon. Her typing is even applicable to check one physical threat: Breloom. To top it off, her 125 SpA, the same as Tornadus-I and Hydreigon, allows her to hit hard enough to prevent set up.

    She is held back thanks to living the life of Grass-Type coverage, shitty recovery, and most importantly, by the gross speed creep present in OU.

    Hell, I'd say her niche is strong enough to be B-rank, but if I can't even push Keldeo to S-rank, then I'm not gonna bother for Rosey.
  18. lordkira

    lordkira

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    I'd like to put this argument by Ojama on the table again as it seems like it was rather ignored.
  19. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Nominating Breloom for Uber...er, I mean, S-Rank. It is the quintessential sleep abuser, as it instantly puts pressure on the opposing team with its amazing STAB coverage after it puts something to sleep. Because of the change in sleep mechanics from Gen IV to Gen V, the sleep counter resets each time you switch in a sleeping Poke, which means that putting a Poke to sleep essentially kills it, as you cannot hope for it to wake up in a metagame as fast as this one. Switching in a counter (like Celebi, Amoonguss, Latias, etc) to take the sleep and just sit there doesn't usually work either, because all those Pokes are potential set-up fodder and/or Pusuit bait.

    That's not all, though. Breloom is broken because it is able to force catch-22 scenarios. Let's say Breloom comes in on a slower Rotom-W that you need to keep awake in order to counter a Gyarados in the wings. You switch in Politoed to take the Spore, but it Swords Dances instead and then uses Mach Punch to kill Politoed. Now you're down a Poke, have to deal with a +2 Breloom, and may have to deal with it putting something else to sleep either now or later in the match. It's just a horrible Pokemon for the metagame and needs to go.
  20. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I'd like to counter this argument by saying "NUH-UH."

    Er-hem, wait.

    Breloom is certainly an amazing little Pokemon, but it's certainly not S-tier. Situations like the one you presented in your post are few and far between, as Breloom is not only slow, it's also spectacularly frail. So not only does Breloom have to come in on a Pokemon that is slower than it (which is limited almost entirely to defensive Pokemon), it also has to make certain that it can get a Swords Dance boost before getting straight OHKO'd by any relatively powerful neutral attack. Also, Celebi, Latias, and Amoongus work fine as counters. Breloom is rarely, if ever, seen with Tyranitar. In fact, Breloom's most common partner capable of learning Pursuit, as of January, is Weavile, at a measly 0.572%. Breloom is certainly a threat to be aware of, but he's hardly S-tier, and not even close to being banworthy.

    Seconding Keldeo for S-tier, however. That thing is an absolute menace, in and out of rain.
  21. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Breloom doesn't need a Swords Dance to kill stuff. In fact, it doesn't need to physically kill anything at all. If it puts something something to sleep, it has already done its job, since it's effectively an effortless free kill with sleep mechanics the way they are right now. That's why you see people run Focus Sash leads as you near the top of the ladder (or at least I do); putting something to sleep early in the game is such an easy way to put momentum on your side.

    Simply put: Breloom always puts in work every single game, whether it be revenging things with a powerful technician Mach Punch, slamming even the toughest Defensive Pokes with Bullet Seed, or netting a free kill with Spore.

    Just saying, but referencing usage stats to back up your arguments is a pretty bad idea. The most annoying teams I've had the pleasure of facing use Breloom + Pursuit Trapper. In any case, you don't need to run Pursuit with Breloom; just something to set up on a sleeping Celebi/Latias/Amoongus.
  22. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I'll like to add to this by saying that with Natural Cure, Roserade is excellent at switching into Scalds because it doesn't fear being burned. This makes her an even better switch-in to Water-types than Ferrothorn.

    She deserves B-tier instead of C. She properly fulfills a given defensive niche of being an excellent switch-in to Water-types, not minding Scald, Toxic, or Ice Beam (thanks to her special bulk), staying alive with Natural Cure Rest, and is a great threat to rain-teams in general. She has distinct niches over Ferrothorn and Celebi, the two main defensive Grass-types (typing, Natural cure, higher SpA, Sleep Powder). Unlike other C-tier Pokemon, she does not have crippling flaws that prevent her from consistently executing their strategy, and she is not completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks. Mind you, she's a support Pokemon who can be setup bait for dangerous sweepers, but that's part of the B-tier Pokemon.
  23. Asek

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    I can't see breloom being S rank really, it isn't hard to find something that can switch into it once its used its spore (grass + fighting isn't great coverage), and even if you don't have a switch in there's plenty of pokemon that have no trouble revenging it, and most teams will have a solid answer to it without having to take special consideration for it. Yes I understand that spore is basically a free kill, but against a good player you will be hard pressed to find a spore oppurtunity and if you do you probably will end up sporing his least valuable team member at the time such as toed once weather war is done. Overall I can't see it being S tier at all, it doesn't break through nearly all of the meta and it doesn't provide any of the other criteria of being an S tier pokemon. Having said that it is very good, and its STAB's to make it nearly perfect to have against defensive rain teams, also as per every other fighting type pursuit support with it makes it damm near unstoppable but that makes it fit the definition of A better u_u

    Bring us sash loom and i will bireak somebodies head
  24. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I agree with Keldeo and Garchomp being in S-Rank because, simply put, they are both really strong, relatively bulky, have great speeds, excellent STAB combinations, and many other things that just make them great, but not Breloom. Breloom's STAB coverage, to put it bluntly, is absolutely terrible. Fighting/Grass is possibly one of the worst offensive combinations in the tier, being resisted most Flying-, Bug-, and Poison-types, Latios, Latias, Celebi, and several non-OU Pokemon. While Spore means that you often have to carry two checks to Breloom, a ton of Pokemon already check Breloom, so having two checks isn't that difficult. Breloom also has a sort of unideal combination of being somewhat slow and very frail, meaning that if it cannot Mach Punch the foe it has to take a hit, and its low defenses make it hard pressed to do that. Breloom has some amazing traits no doubt, including Technician, free set-up with Spore, Mach Punch, a really strong Bullet Seed, and more, but it also has some very, very noticable flaws that are extremely difficult to work around.

    On another note, getting Breloom to set-up past early-game is pretty difficult, considering it cannot take advantage of some of its resistances, such as Water.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Keldeo may not have the best STABs here, but they aren't downright terrible, still have incredible coverage, and are extremely powerful. What it lacks on coverage, Keldeo makes up for sheer power. For example, 5 of the Pokémon that you cited, Latios, Gyarados, Salamence, Starmie, Dragonite, still take a lot of damage from rain-boosted Water-type attacks, despite the resistance (the latter needs Multiscale broken, however), and may be 2HKOed if they do not have investiment in Special Defense. Without rain it is not that easy to wall as you may think. There are a lot of Pokémon, like Slowbro and Scizor, that cannot take non-Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. Slowbro is a rare threat, but despite the resistance, it is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump boosted by Specs. Scizor is 2HKOed (OHKOed if boosted by Specs) even outside rain, and on rain I don't even need to say what happens with him. Anything not packing a resistance to Hydro Pump and not named Chansey or Blissey will be 2HKOed at worst by unboosted Hydro Pump. The latter two are even manageable with Secret Sword. Keldeo is still very powerful. Also, more often than not Icy Wind and Hidden Power are sufficient in terms of coverage. Finally, the new Expert Belt Keldeo can get past its would-be counters, like Specially Defensive Celebi. I still agree that Keldeo should be S-Rank.

    As for Garchomp, it should be A-Rank. It faces competition with other Dragons, and has only two weakness, but they are extremely common. Each of them has an advantage over Garchomp, such as Salamence's Moxie, Dragonite's Multiscale, and both dragon's access to Dragon Dance (Garchomp can only boost its Speed with Choice Scarf). These are sufficient to compete with the fact that Garchomp has STAB on Earthquake (and Earthquake isn't even the best move to get rid of Steel-types).

    As for Breloom, the only thing that "really" makes Breloom a threat to watch for is Spore. If Breloom didn't had Spore, it would certainly be much, much easier to deal with. That said, once Breloom has used its Spore, it isn't hard to find something that can switch on it. It has counters, namely Celebi, Amoongus, and to a lesser extent, Lati@s. On top of that, Breloom is so frail that it takes heavy damage even from resisted attacks. It is 2HKOed by CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge! Breloom is so difficult to switch on battle, and Tyranitar is not really the best partner for him due to the sandstorm damage. Breloom is A-Rank at best.
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