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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Oddly enough, another "counter" to Hydreigon is Specially defensive Celebi, if rain is up. Celebi avoids the 2HKO from Draco Meteor, recover on Hydreigon's face, and Fire Blast will do laughable damage thanks to rain. However, like Jellicent, Celebi will fall to Dark Pulse. Also, unlike Jirachi, another Pokémon that can be considered a "counter" if rain is up, Celebi cannot do much to Hydreigon, unless it carry Hidden Power Ice or Thunder Wave, but the former can only 3HKO and the latter only manages to cripple Hydreigon, not defeat him.

    Also, now that you mentioned it, Kyurem-B lacks physical coverage moves to hurt Steel-types (Fusion Bolt covers most Steel-types neutrally, but isn't sufficient to do a lot of damage to most them. This doesn't happen with Hydreigon, so Hydreigon could be considered A-Rank? (or Kyurem-B, B-Rank)?
  2. False Sense

    False Sense

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    I'm glad you saw my point. Hydreigon and Kyurem-B both share similar flaws, and some unique to one or the other. Their both hit hard by common priority, are slow and relatively easy to check. Hydreigon is weak to U-turn, while Kyurem-B is weak to Stealth Rocks.

    Now about positives, both Hydreigon and Kyurem-B are very hard to switch into. Kyurem-B has that MASSIVE attack stat that lets it invest entirely in special and hit hard on both sides, but it lacks proper coverage, giving it a few counters. Hydreigon has less powerful stats, but it literally has no safe switch ins. They both have pretty good bulk too, with Kyurem-B having a little more overall bulk thanks to that large HP.

    The way I see it, Hydreigon and Kyurem-B have a roughly equal amount of pros and cons. Ironically, I hear a lot of people praising Kyurem-B, while Hydreigon seems to be looked down upon. I would agree that they SHOULD be in the same rank, and since Kyurem-B is a pretty solid A-Rank, I think it seems fair that Hydreigon be A-Rank as well.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    DFA neither SpD Jellicent nor SpD Celebi in rain are counters to Dark Pulse-less Hydreigon and here is why:

    - Draco Meteor vs SpD Jellicent: 56.18 - 66.58%
    ...while at -2: 27.97 - 33.16%, which is a 2HKO 39.45% of the time after SR. And the chance gets even bigger if Hydreigon runs Earthquake, which does 30.94 - 36.38%

    - Draco Meteor vs SpD Celebi: 57.17 - 67.82%
    ...while at -2: 28.96 - 34.15%, which is a 2HKO 61.33% of the time after SR

    They are strong checks but not counters.
  4. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    hydreigon's fatal flaw that prevents it from being a-rank is the fact that it's incredibly difficult to switch in. due to its mediocre typing, a lot of ou pokemon present considerable threats to it, and despite its extremely diverse movepool, it often fails to ohko a lot of things, meaning they now have a chance to attack back (again, hydreigon's typing and just decent bulk mean it can get ohkod easily by a bunch of big threats including keldeo, terrakion, tyranitar, breloom, etc). another thing that's holding it back is the prevalence of jirachi under rain. as we saw in the 1337 usage stats, jirachi is #3 in usage, and it's coupled with rain more than two thirds of the time. that means for about 17% of teams, hydreigon literally does nothing, which is hard to swallow when you're looking for consistent threats to utilize in teambuilding. for these reasons, hydreigon sees little usage, and is a solid b rank pokemon.
  5. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Saying Hydreigon does "literally nothing" against Rain team with Jirachi is a bit harsh, don't you think? Earthquake still hurts Jirachi pretty bad, and it's not like Jirachi's mere presence makes Hydreigon useless. It can do pretty huge damage to a lot of common rain threats, even bulkier ones like Politoed and Ferrothorn. Fire Blast still hurts things 4x weak to it even in Rain, something that shouldn't be overlooked. I fail to see how Hydreigon is so useless against Rain teams.
  6. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I used to be a supporter of this, but anymore I'm not so sure. Hydreigon's biggest, and really it's only, niche is that of a wallbreaker, but the problem with that is OU has become so offensive lately that there aren't many walls left. More often than not, what will happen with Hydreigon is you'll bring him in, fire off one attack, and then either be forced out or get revenge-killed. Being weak to U-Turn and Fighting are just about the most grievous sins you can commit in OU, and Hydreigon has both, so he's very susceptible to U-Turners as well.

    Also, and this is just a personal opinion of mine, but I challenge the notion of Hydreigon being a good scarfer. It's odd to say it, but even at a decent base 98 speed, Hydreigon is just too slow for OU. Being outsped by other Scarfers is definitely not something I look for in a Scarfer of my own, especially when he gets beat by so many of them (Salamence, Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, etc.). If you really want to use Hydreigon, use him as an almighty beatstick and nothing else. He's outclassed by Latios in just about every other role (his only advantage over him as a Scarfer is he's not Tyranitar bait).

    Plus, he doesn't even look all that badass. He looks like a fat dragon with a flower on it's head and two sock-puppets instead of hands.
  7. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    252SpAtk Life Orb Hydreigon (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/232SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 49% - 58% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    Yeeaaahhhhno. Hydreigon is checked. Never countered.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    can we please decide which moveset specifically hydreigon is running? i've heard draco meteor, dragon pulse, dark pulse, fire blast, surf, dark pulse, earth power, earthquake, u-turn, superpower, and roost so far. it's like torn-t suspect thread all over again, no one wants to decide on a set so then i can tell you what counters it. point is, hydreigon may have a fantastic movepool, and yes, if it could run eleven different moves, then it would be uncounterable. but pokemon only get four moveslots, guys. time to make up your minds. which four moves are going to make hydreigon a solid b-rank this time?
  9. False Sense

    False Sense

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    I think a relatively safe assumption is Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Earthquake, but Dark Pulse seems to be an alternative to Earthquake. Depends on what you want to hit harder.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Lavos the standard Hydreigon set runs DM / Fire Blast / Superpower / EQ. Jirachi is 2HKOed by EQ, but is a very good check in rain.
  11. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I'm not trying to insinuate that Hydreigon can run every move at all times. But there's no guarantee that that particular Hydreigon you're facing down doesn't carry a move that can break you in half, and that's what it means in him having no counters. He can conceivably run a crazy amount of very powerful offensive sets (EVERY Choice item, Expert Belt, Life Orb, Roost + 3 Attacks, Sub + 3 Attacks, SubRoost, etc.) and while you can make educated guesses based on what the rest of the team is you can't make sure that it's not a Choice Band set that 2HKOs your 252/252+ Eviolite Chansey.

    In fact, that incredibly diverse capability is WHY he should be a candidate for A-tier. He's not like Tornadus-T who you KNOW is going to spam Hurricane or Deo-D who you KNOW is going to set hazards (though this sentence is slightly fallacious in that Torn-T and Deo-D do their jobs arguably infinitely better than Hydreigon does his); he could be anything and it just might be the thing that undoes your team.
  12. False Sense

    False Sense

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    In a way, I somewhat disagree with you on this. It's true that Hydreigon can run numerous sets, but not all of them are necessarily effective. It is true though that it does have those possibilities, so I guess that's something to consider. I think Hydreigon's main claim-to-fame is it's mixed set, due to the fact that, unlike most pokemon "with no counters" that have counters based on the set, but not as a whole, Hydreigon is capable of having practically no counters with one set. Things like Landorus don't have many hard counters due to the radically different nature of their (very good) sets. However, the individual sets can be countered. Hydreigon's mixed set has no real counters, and because of this, if Hydreigon safely gets on the field against something that doesn't immediately threaten it, it can get a kill. This is something that almost no other pokemon can boast, and that is why Hydreigon can be so effective.
  13. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    =====
    Update
    =====

    Heracross added to D-tier
    Golurk added to D-tier
    Moltres added to D-tier


    You know, I think Hydreigon for A-tier supporters actually have some ground to stand on. There's more to Hydreigon than just being uncounterable; Hydreigon is really good against most Sandstorm teams. It has this one key advantage over Latios, who vulnerable to Tyranitar. Hydreigon comes out on top against most members of sand: Tar / Celebi / Landorus / Heatran / Forretress / Hippowdon / Rotom-W all lose to Hydreigon one way or another, they'll lose. The catch is Terrakion, who is commonly found on sand teams, but other than that Hydreigon easily wipes the floor with Sand. Of course, a good Sand player like say... BKC, wouldn't let Hydreigon walk over his team, but if an equally good player were using Hydreigon to its maximum potential I could see it giving sand trouble. Not many players use Hydreigon in a competitive environment, but i've seen like Ginku use it in a tournament match, and Eo (or he did when I last talked to him) so it isn't just a Pokemon used by noobs or casuals. It's plagued by its unfortunate typing, sure but nothing is perfect.

    I want to give it some more thought though.

    Food for thought: If Drizzle were banned, I wouldn't hesitate to make this change, since Hydreigon beats sun & sand no problem.

    EDIT: Togekiss: D or C tier

    thoughts on this? (I haven't used or seen Togekiss)
  14. Adams

    Adams

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    Personally, after using Togekiss tons, I can say that she is a great partner for Jirachi and is a great ParaFlincher with decent bulk and speed.
  15. Takion

    Takion

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    No love for Bisharp?
  16. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

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    After using Slowking for awhile, I definitely think it deserves a slot on this list. At least C tier. It's one of the few solid switch-ins to Keldeo and Politoed, and is able to send off relatively powerful rain-boosted Surfs. It has a very wide variety of coverage and support moves, along with great resistances to common threats. Everyone knows it's a specially defensive Slowbro, and in a metagame filled with special attacks, that isn't a bad thing. Access to Regenerator and a solid recovery move in Slack Off increases its staying power to the max. It's a great tool to have especially against Rain teams, but it can take just about every special attack in the tier (it even forces Gengar to switch out due to the risk of Psyshock: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 58.63% - 69.29% (2 hits to KO)). It even has something that Slowbro doesn't--Nasty Plot. Something that can act as a wonderful special tank can also turn around and be a really threatening sweeper (but really only under Trick Room). There really isn't anything else that plays the same roles as Slowking since it has such a unique typing; and Slowbro can't even dream of taking powerful special hits. EDIT: The downside between it and Slowbro is that it can be Pursuit trapped by TTar more easily.

    Also Chandelure has the interesting niche of being able to switch into Scizor, no matter its set. It's also a great check to Lucario since it resists both its priority moves + Close Combat, which is only shared by Jellicent I believe (who more often than not will be slower and at risk of Crunch). Its Scarf set has sweeping potential and is actually quite powerful: 252 SpAtk Chandelure (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus: 87.77% - 103.76% (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). It's a good spinblocker, and isn't overshadowed by Gengar in the way that it doesn't really mind Forretress' Gyro Ball. It can 2HKO Tentacruel with Psychic, but like Gengar, is OHKO'd by Starmie. Also, Flame Body has the same burn chance as Scald, so Scizor has to be super careful in spamming U-turn. I want to say it's C rank, but its vulnerability to TTar is quite large and it can't spam either of its STABs until its gone. But the same thing can be seen with Lati@s I guess. EDIT: It also checks Breloom quite efficiently. With Sleep Talk, it becomes wonderful Spore fodder for the likes of Amoonguss and Breloom.
  17. lolazo

    lolazo

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    Please put Durant in C or B Rank, its a underrated sweeper, with Hone claws, Iron head, Thunder Fang, Superpower, Life Orb (Or Lum Berry for paralysis or burn) And Hustle, Hits entire metagame for at least Supereffective damage and Very Hard (+1 Durant Thunder Fang 2HKO Skarmory) , And with 109 speed base outspeed Terrakion and Keldeo and hit with Iron Head and Thunder Fang, Solid Counters are few (Volcarona, Zapdos and Slowbro) and can beaten with another coverage move like Rock Slide in case of first two or X-Scissor in Slowbro, Sadly, Hone Claws is difficult to set up (Only can Set Up in Pursuit Users except FB TTar, Defensive Pokes without T-Wave - Will o wisp and in Switches) he is outspeeded by special sweepers like Latios, Gengar, Alakazam and Starmie and is Weak to Choice Scarfers like Keldeo, but with Pursuit user Like TTar or Weavile can Trap Special Sweepers That can be problematic for Durant
  18. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Really? I'd think that Chandy would receive massive damage from switching into a Choice Banded Bullet Punch + Stealth Rock damage, in any case it cannot probably repeat the feat ad infinitum. Barring Flame Body triggering of course.
  19. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    In my opinion Stone Edge has many advantages over ThunderFang on Durant. Hitting both Volcarona and Zapdos, more base power and Skarmory is 2HKO'd anyway. ThunderFang is too weak.
  20. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 88-104 (33.58 - 39.69%) -- 23.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    So no I wouldn't say it could switch in to any set, especially if it has any prior damage on it, it risks being 2hko'd by scizor's choice band bullet punch. Meaning all Scizor really has to do to beat a switching in chandelure is BP it once, switch out to something that will force Chandelure out, then Chandelure won't be able to take another BP because of the SR damage that is chandelure's biggest flaw (even moreso than it's subpar speed).

    With that said though, I wouldn't be risking my scizor to flame body, and if I was going to attempt to do anything to chandelure with a scizor I'd wait til it locked itself into shadow ball or something then pursuit it. Most Chandelure in OU are choiced.
  21. Groudon ex

    Groudon ex

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    as cool as chandelure is, it has a number of debilitating flaws that keep it from attaining c-tier viability in my opinion. being a fire type in a rain-centric metagame isn't exactly ideal. though it does have a useful secondary stab in ghost, chandelure sure-as-hell doesn't like having its fire stab crippled. whilst it is most effective under strong sunlight, it's not really a good choice for sun team as it doesn't bring anything new to the table, whilst simply compounding the team's weaknesses. not only is it weak to sr, but it is also vulnerable to spikes, toxic and sandstorm/hail damage. combine that with a mediocre speed stat that basically forces you to run it with a choice scarf, and a shallow movepool - and you have quite an average pokemon despite that lovely base 145 sp.attack stat. it faces a lot of competition from other scarfers who are faster, have better coverage and don't have so many crippling weaknesses. yeah you may be able to clean up a weatherless offensive team once in a while, but overall i'd say chandelure isn't worth it in the long run. it may have a few nifty perks as you've already mentioned, but it's not really enough to bring it into the limelight of c-tier (plus it can only really spinblock vs. forretress). d-tier seems like a good place for it, given the few niches it does occupy.

    slowking i agree with though. pretty underrated
  22. Ojama

    Ojama Let's trizzle the shizzle all over the hizzle
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    I personally think that Garchomp, aka Chomper, should be S Rank because it's one of the most threatening Pokemons of the game. We shouldn't forget that it was Uber before getting unbanned recently. Garchomp has now access to Aqua Tail which allows it to be very effective in Rain and to hit Lando-T / Gliscor without using Outrage and getting locked on it then (and so being RKable).

    The SubSD Salac is absolutely horrible to face, it's able to decimate an entire team with very little team support. It also works very well as an SRer, a Bander and a Scarfer (especially in the current metagame). It's only real counter is Skarmory (that gets 2HKO'd by Aqua Tail in Rain from CBChomp) and it isn't that much used in the current metagame. It's also faster than the famous Landorus which is an extremely important point in my opinion. I won't even talk about it's bulk for such an amazing sweeper... (it's ability is really cool too).

    Keldeo should be S-Rank as well seeing how it's able to destroy 95% of the Metagame with Secret Sword + Hydropump. It only has a few counters that are 2HKO'd by Hidden Power Ghost from the Specs and easily trap'd by Tyranitar, maybe Keldeo's favorite teammates. It has the same bulky as Terrakion but it resists to priority moves like BPunch / IShard which is very positive. As I just said it, it only needs a very little team support (Politoed or Tyranitar are enough) and is probably the best sweeper of the tier with Landorus. Definitely an S-Rank.
  23. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Alright here's a more in depth explanation about Hydreigon dealing with Drizzle counters.

    Drizzle is definitely a factor in keeping Hydreigon from being one of the best Dragons in OU, however unlike Latios and Latias Hydreigon actually stands a chance against it's most common counters such as Ferrothorn and SpD Jirachi. For example, Standard Ferrothorn (252 HP/168 SpDef) in the Rain can't even safely come in on Hydreigon. For example, if Ferrothorn switches into Hydreigon's Draco Meteor, it does roughly 34.38% - 40.62% to it, not counting Stealth Rocks. Since most people will expect you to switch out, they'll keep their Ferrothorn in. This gives you a chance to surprise them with a Superpower, which deals roughly 44.89% - 52.84%. Factoring in Stealth Rocks, Ferrothorn is pretty much fucked seeing as it has no means of reliable recovery, and what ever move you use next will kill it in one hit.

    Hydreigon's next Drizzle road block is Specially Defensive Jirachi. Let's be honest here, pretty much every dragon with the exception of Garchomp have a problem with this asshole. Jirachi is meant to be a complete counter to Special Dragons, so using the excuse "Hydreigon can't handle Jirachi so it's deemed un A worthy" is a terrible argument. Physical Dragons even hate it! A +1 Adamant Scarf Salamence fails to OHKO it with Earthquake, just barely missing the OHKO. AT +1!!! Jirachi then threatens Mence with T-Wave, which completely shuts it down. Garchomp does OHKO it at +2 with EQ or with a Choice Band, however Scarf also fails to OHKO it with a STAB Earthquake coming off of 359 Attack, which just shows how bulky Rachi is. Just like Mence, and the Lati twins, Hydreigon also has a hard time handling Rachi successfully, however compared to the Lati twins, Hydreigon can get around Jirachi more successfully. Similar to Ferrothorn, Jirachi takes a decent chunk from Draco Meteor about 31.93% - 37.38%. Since 99% of the time Jirachi will stay in after the Draco, Hydreigon will get a free turn to hit it with Earthquake, which does 44.55% - 52.48%, just around half. With the combination of Draco Meteor and Earthquake, Jirachi is sitting at a dangerously low 20%. Since this is way too low for Jirachi to stall it out with Wish, Hydreigon has a big chance of actually KOing it by itself.

    Since these are the two main counters Terrakion will be seeing, I feel like this is enough to suffice for an explanation as to how Hydreigon can even handle Rain teams. Like mentioned earlier, Celebi and Jellicent can counter Hydreigon pretty well, however both are screwed if he's carrying Dark Pulse. This just shows that whatever Hydreigon is running, nothing likes to go up against it. It has immense coverage and nothing can truly counter it due to his power and massive move pool. Yes his typing is quite a bother since he's weak to Mach Punch and U-Turn, however with the proper team support Hydreigon can be one of the hardest Pokemon to face in the meta game. Also, I feel like if Kyurem-B is in A, then Hydreigon should sure as hell be in A. Okay we all know that Kyurem-B has dat 170 BP Attack and has some good bulk, but his physical move pool is absolutely terrible and doesn't really do too much specially that regular Kyurem doesn't. On top of that, he has the worst defensive typing in the game, he's weak to Stealth Rocks and is hindered by Spikes, AND weak to both Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, both which are used by the top ten most used Pokes in OU. Hydreigon is indeed weak to Mach Punch and U-turn which is often seen on every other Pokemon, but unlike Kyurem he has an amazing ability which keeps him immune to Spikes, he's almost impossible to switch into effectively, his move pool is massive, he can beat out his counters, and he's unpredictable. This alone should give him A-Rank. Hopefully this is enough of an explanation for PK to put him A-Rank.
  24. False Sense

    False Sense

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    I think I would disagree with Ojama about Keldeo. I think it's a very good pokemon, but it's not really S-Rank. Destroys 95% of the metagame with Hydro Pump and Secret Sword? Uh.. not really. That combination gets resisted by a lot, such as Dragon/Flying, Grass/Psychic, Dragon/Psychic, Grass/Poison, Water/Psychic, Water/Ghost, Water/Flying, etc. Looking at those types, you can see quite a few of those all over the place, so it's not too hard to carry something that resists both of Keldeo's STABs without trying. Also, you seem to be doing the "it can do all of this" thing that Lavos Spawn hates. Sure, some of it's counters are removed by Specs HP Ghost, but locking yourself into that has some drawbacks, and using HP Ghost means you lose out on the ability to hurt Dragons. Also, a good few pokemon are capable of tanking it's attacks, especially without Rain, which needs to be considered since Keldeo's best partner, Tyranitar, prevents Rain. And again, it suffers from bad coverage, so it's easily walled by a good few threats, and I think that's probably the biggest reason why I think it should remain A-Rank.
  25. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    No doubt Chomp is strong, but the reason it was uber before was because of Sand Veil, which is banned now and doesn't exist in the metagame.

    While not outclassed, it does face very stiff competition from other Dragons. -- Latios and Latias have a fantastic 110 speed which Garchomp has to deal with both in terms of being outsped by them as opponents and as competition for a teamslot as they can outspeed things in the very present 108 speed tier including terrakion and keldeo.
    - Latias additionally can perform defensive roles.
    - Without Sand Veil, Dragonite and Salamence arguably sport better abilities than Garchomp which can give them an edge. Salamence despite speed tieing with scarf 100s and not outspeeding scarf thunderus-T/landorus-I arguably makes a better scarfer thanks to Moxie, while Dragonite's Multiscale, when applicable, can make it very tough to take down.
    - Hydreigon offers unparalleled coverage and mixed capabilities that Garchomp could only dream of.

    In Garchomps favor his most defining attribute is his Ground typing, giving him an SR resistance, Electric/thunderwave immunity, and STAB on Earthquake.

    SubSD is still very strong indeed, but what made it so strong before was Sand Veil in conjunction with Substitute, because a Garchomp with both Sub and SD up was pretty much gg. Now it is much harder to get up both Sub and SD.

    Yache chomp is also very good, but that means sacrificing something else to hold the berry. And it could also be viewed somewhat as a pseudo multiscale, which Dragonite already has and can therefore use another useful item.

    I'm really not trying to say Chomp is bad, I just think it is a very solid A-tier pokemon without sand veil. Every other dragon has something Chomp wishes it could do, and pretty much the only time I see chomp now a days is on Dragmag and Dragon Spam teams, where those other dragons are already being used in addition to him.

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