The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. sickweare

    sickweare

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    I'm a little confused about the recent movements. Golurk was put into D-tier, despite his good arguments for C-tier. I think his inclusion to D-tier is kind of misleading, because based on the evidence provided, he is actually very good at what he was supposed to do. I was just wondering why he was added to D-tier? Not trying to criticize, but rather just out of curiosity.
  2. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I think what PK is trying to say is that Drizzle makes Fire Blast and Flamethrower unviable, so if permanent rain weren't a thing then Hydreigon's place in A-tier wouldn't be a question. SpDef Jirachi and SpDef Celebi are both quickly ended by Flamethrower/Fire Blast outside of rain, and Jellicent simply can't stand up to repeated Draco Meteors (I'm still a firm opponent of running Dark STAB when you've got Dragon STAB, Hydreigon's coverage, and Justified Pokémon running around). Fun fact: Modest Expert Belt Fire Blast in the rain deals a minimum of 73% to standard Ferrothorn. The threat of Superpower and Focus Blast are also huge deterrents for Ferrothorn to even switch in.

    Again, unfortunately, he's so goddamn easy to check that I'm undecided on his place in A.
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Did you read my last post? I pretty much completely explained how Hydreigon can beat out his counters even with the nerf to Fire Blast, which he doesn't need to rely on since he also carries EQ for Rachi and Dark Pulse for Celebi (Justified isn't a good argument seeing as T-Tar uses Dark moves all the time against teams with Terrakion and Keldeo on them). It all depends on the set, and or what your team needs for him to handle. By the way, I feel that Hydreigon is indeed easy to check, but what about Kyurem-B and Salamence? Mence is incredibly frail and is 4x weak to Ice moves, which are commonly used on Rain teams. Kyurem-B is weak to SR, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Close Combat, Outrage, and Stone Edge, all very common moves in OU. I still feel that him being easy to check shouldn't keep him from being A-Rank, since other A Pokemon also can be easily checked. Some of them however, can be countered AND checked, but Hydreigon can really only be checked.
  4. Smilodon

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    I really agree, and I must add that nobody mentioned the fact that Golurk can use the nasty No Guard + Dynamic Punch combination (and a 100% accurate Stone Edge, many poke would dream of that). Giving him a little speed to outspeed and OHKO Tyranitar is quite fun.

    I've used him in a few team, where I just threw it at the beginning because I just had one slot for SR and spinblocking. And I really wonder why it's not used more. His defensive set is good, but I also love the adamant + max attack one. His attack base stat is 124, which is definitely cool for a supporting pokemon. He forces many switches, and depending on the coverage move, very few things are sure they won't be 2HKO, or OHKO if you predicted well.

    And really, resisting just every move used by standard Terrakion (besides the really rare Earthquake or Zen Headbutt, who are neutral) is a nice gift.


    I'd like to nominate another underrated monster, for C-rank (maybe a bit optimistic, but I will try to prove he deserves it).

    [​IMG]

    Sigilyph can run two really threatening sets, and as it's not often used, few teams are prepared to face him.
    Obviously, the main reason to use it is the combination of Magic Guard + Cosmic Power + Stored Power (and obviously roost to stall longer).

    The most efficient set in current offensive metagame is using Psycho Shift and Flame Orb, to spread burn (90% accuracy, far better than WOW), which is helpful to use Cosmic Power against an unharmed burnt physical attacker.
    An interesting calc : Max attack (non banded) burnt Tyranitar's Stone Edge VS Max Def Sigilyph : 43% - 52% (152 - 182 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 7% chance to 2HKO. And at +1 : 29% - 35% (102 - 122 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    So unless you receive a crit, Tyranitar is not a counter (calcs for banded burnt Tyranitar VS +1 Sigilyph show again 43-52% damage), you can just outstall and wait for him to die burning.

    The other set is the Stall breaker one, not the best in BW2 metagame, but still deadly with a bit of support. He uses leftovers and Charge Beam instead of Psycho Shift. And now, a funny offensive calc : If Blissey is sent to sponge hits to pp stall roost, he will face a surprise : +6 def/spe def/spe Att (easy to reach against a wall) att Stored power VS Max spedef Blissey : 91% - 107% (651 - 766 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 45% chance to OHKO. And of course, you sweep the rest of the team if he doesn't crit somewhere.

    Of course, Sigilyph has many flaws, he hates crits, and have a hard time against effective attack before reaching +2. And he obviously can't do anything against common phazers. Five weaknesses are actually annoying, but they're paired with good resistances, such as *4 fighting or immunity to ground.. The immunity to hazard is nice for a wall.
    Just notice that its speed is also pretty cool, even uninvested, allowing to outspeed common bulky sweppers.

    To put it in a nutshell, I know Sigilyph will have a hard time to set up, but he can find a surprising amount of occasion to force switches. He is also a good partner for hail teams, despite the annoying rock weakness.
    And really, if he's given good partners to help him (Volt-turn to let him come safely, Magnezone to remove Skarmory, and even screens to unsure an easy set up), he can destroy entire teams. And he's really frustrating to face, which is a nice perk.
    So I think he deserves C-rank (some people will argue that he should barely be D-rank, but really, try it and you'll see that it can be a serious threat, and an anti-metagame pokemon).
  5. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
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    The best results I got with hydreigon was with the specs set.

    -Draco
    -Firebalst
    -Focus Blast
    -Surf

    With Specs it didn't hit hard enough. With Specs things like Celebi/Jellicent all get 2hko'd by draco even with max spd. And tons of things get OHKO'd. The only basically safe switch in is Rain Jirachi. If they don't have jirachi in rain you can usually mix up Draco and one coverage move and give them no switch ins. If their steel is weakened you just spam Draco.

    The biggest problem with this set is using Focus Miss. Also though it has advantages I am not sure the set is really overall better then Latios. But its the best Hydreigon set I have tried. Probably Hydreigon should stay in B-rank.
  6. Sacaen

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    I used a Sigilyph for a while, and honestly the biggest threat to it is critical hits simply because it is subject to so many hits while it sets up. This is also the reason why you only want to gather as many cosmic power boosts as you need, rather than just going for +6/+6 which really wouldn't be hard if not for crits. Any phazing whatsoever also makes sigilyph complete deadweight on a team. And while he has a great 4x resistance to fighting moves, he is also weak to many of the many common coverage moves that go along side fighting such as rock, dark, and ice. He'd be a monster if he had better typing.
  7. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I think the Specs set is indeed out classed by Latios, however we were discussing his mixed set, which is what really separates him from the other special dragons in the tier, thus making him A Rank. All in all, I don't really like his Specs set either. He's better off with a Mixed LO or E Belt. His mixed set beats out his counters, while Latios and Latias can't touch Heatran, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn all in one move set like Hydreigon can. That's what makes him so threatening. It has no safe switch ins.
  8. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

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    Oh well when I wrote that I was thinking, but obviously not expressing (my apologies), that it's a good switch-in exactly that: once or twice. It takes very minimal damage from U-turn, and when U-turn is obvious, it makes an excellent switch-in with its 4x resist and 30% chance to burn. Obviously, switching into Bullet Punch repeatedly isn't going to happen, but it can survive 2 with Rapid Spin support. It's really nice on HO teams to spinblock and regain momentum against Scizors, which usually threatens quite a lot of offensive 'mons after previous damage. But yeah, Chandelure does require a bit of team support (Rapid Spin, counter to rain spam, etc.), but it seems to fit the C tier description pretty well.
  9. BettaOffDead

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    tbh, I think Cloyster should be put in C tier. After getting my CRE into the 1600s I found the thing to be damn near useless. No good team is getting swept by Cloyster. Period. It's too hard to set up and most teams worth fighting have something that can take hit from it and KO back. It's good for sweeping teams full of frail Pokemon and breaking subs. That's about it.
  10. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    How about no.
    Cloyster is essentially the physical version of Volcarona.
    You get that Shell Smash off, you kill something with Cloyster and even sweep in not-so-rare circumstances, regardless of how "good" the opposing player is.

    Sand teams in particular are horribly weak to it.
    Just look at the usage of Landorus-T, Gliscor and Garchomp - all things that Cloyster easily takes advantage of. As long as they're common, Cloyster will always have an easy time setting up.

    I'm not sure why you think most Fighting types easily KO back, because they don't.
    Terrakion and Breloom are easily KO'd with the appropriate move before they can even move and Keldeo's Secret Sword targets its high defense stat.
    That, and the fact that fighting types aren't nearly as common in OU as they were in early BW (in fact, most of them fell to UU).

    If you're really scared about Fighting types then just use Chople Berry instead of White Herb (you'll take +33% damage from a SE fighting type attack, factoring the denese drop from SS, a -66% damage reduction compared to White Herb).

    The problem with Cloyster is that most people run the standard cookie-cutter Shell Smash set without making changes in order to tailor it to what their team needs.
    Heck, Cloyster can easily get past Keldeo, Rotom-W, Starmie and Jellicent with HP Grass if it wants to.

    Having Cloyster in your team will force the opponent in keeping their Cloyster "check" alive for most of the battle, something you should take advantage of.
    Notice how most of them are fighting and water types? Pair Cloyster with something like Latios or Celebi and take advantage of that.

    In short, it's an effective pokemon that can easily pressure the opponent just for the threat of Shell Smash alone.
    Therefore it should be, at worst, B-rank.
  11. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I have a sand team, and I must say, Cloyster has never been a problem for me. Although Cloyster has a high Defense stat, this does not mean nothing when it has a HORRIBLE HP stat. Why you are going to use Hidden Power Grass? Does you want to be walled by Heatran or Skarmory? You absolutely need Hydro Pump to deal with them unless you have support like Dugtrio or Magnezone to remove both threats, respectively.

    It is easy to stop Cloyster with a Water-type. I has been using Keldeo; it resists every move Cloyster can use and although Cloyster has a high Defense stat, it has a horrible Special Defense stat. Thus, either Secret Sword or Hydro Pump (or HP Electric if you have that) will be sufficient to deal with Cloyster.

    Cloyster in no way should be understimated, as it can sweep entire teams after X threat was removed. I myself has been swept. However, lets face it, the things that stop Cloyster, stop it so cold and leave it hopeless that leaves him on a situation where either you sweep, or you will be swept.
  12. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    I had a huge post about how wrong you were and I lost it. So I'm going to sum it up quickly:

    1) Cloyster is not a physical Volcarona.
    a) Volcarona is not as mortally terrified of any physical attack as Cloyster is of special attacks.
    b) Volcarona has usuable physical defense and it has room to invest in it via evs or nature, cloyster is shoe-horned into running speed and attack or spa to get the ohkos and speed tier it needs.
    c) Volcarona can cripple a physical attacker via flame body making physical attackers even less of a threat.
    d) Volcarona can actually do something without a boost. Cloyster has awful offenses without it's boost, volcarona's are actually quite nice with 135 spa and 100 spe. And cloyster's utility set isnt comparable to volcarona.

    2) HP Grass isn't viable.
    a) Rotom-W, Jellicent, and Starmie all take more (or equal in starmies case) damage from Rock Blast than HP Grass even if you somehow were magically running 252 SpA and 252 Atk (which is also not viable)
    b) Life orb is necessary to have a chance at ohko'ing the above at +2 with rock blast, and if you are running life orb you will be at -1 def and damaged and highly susceptible to priority.
    c) in Keldeo's case HP Grass can only ohko if you were running life orb and 252 SpA, which isn't viable.
    d) actually run damage calcs first before spewing bs.

    3) "Having Cloyster in your team will force the opponent in keeping their Cloyster "check" alive for most of the battle, something you should take advantage of.
    Notice how most of them are fighting and water types? Pair Cloyster with something like Latios or Celebi and take advantage of that. "
    a) Notice how most of any dragon's checks are steel types? pair them with a magnezone or gothitelle and see what happens. Your statement is true for any pokemon. If you let your check for anything die before it's served it's purpose, you're going to be in for a hard time
    b) Cloyster often has multiple checks to worry about that are often included in teams naturally.

    4) Breloom does minimum 95% to -1 Def cloyster with mach punch. If it is running white herb, it loses alot of damage output it needs to get past bulky waters which can at the very least put cloyster into ohko range of breloom's mach punch without the defense drop.

    5) Sand teams often carry Rotom-W or Keldeo. Also is potentially checking Sand teams worth having such a hard time with sun and rain?
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yeah agreeing with most people here, Cloyster for C rank, the meta is far too unkind to it. It wants huge team support to be able to sweep anytime soon, which is the case with many Pokemon in Rank C such as Conkeldurr, NP Infernape, and Growth Victreebel.
  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest i'm bored
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    Not sure about Cloyster. Although C-Rank is pretty decent justice for Cloyster; it needs a shit ton of support to work, especially with that horrid SpD, awful defensive typing, and shitty HP. Ughhh.

    Anyways, prepare for a tl:dr post; I'm up for a whole lot of nominations.

    Firstly, I'd like to nominate Abomasnow for B-Rank, if not A-Rank (though the latter unlikely). It is the summoner of its own weather; hail. Abomasnow is the crux of any hail team, to spam Blizzards, etc. The fact that it is a summoner of weather itself also makes it a great check to Tyranitar and Politoed alike, neutering their weather and just smashing them. Of course, his shit typing makes that rather hard, which is why I say "check". Same with the mighty Hippo, who gets chills from Blizzard. Also, CB Aboma can smash Ninetales with EQ or Focus Punch. Abomasnow has great STAB's too, and they provide great coverage. His mixed attacking stats are nice to do some real good, and his stats overall allow him to fulfill the role of a weather killer with CB, or a Mixed Attacker, or even a SubSeeder. While he's not the best Pokemon ever, and is slow, yes. But his hail summoning shit and being a good weather killer and mixed attacker should get him up some. But that's just what I think.

    It's a disgrace that a pathetic nine tailed fox sits in the A-Rank while a mighty abominable snowman gets the C-Rank.

    Also gonna nominate Darmanitan for C-Rank. Darma is strongth. Like, damn powerful that in the sun, it is nigh impossible to take a Flare Blitz from this nigga. He can hit pretty damn hard, has an alright speed tier, although still outsped by a number of things. With a Scarf or LO, he can do a solid job as a powerhouse in the sun, and can take down a lot of shit. Of course, though, in this weather centered meta, he gets nerfed hard by rain, and so he absolutely needs the sun to be consistent. Also, Sand makes life hard to some degree for Darma, so yeah. Also, he's SR weak, and combined with the liability of pathetic Ninetales, that's no good. You need a spinner like Donphan or Starmie to be successful. But his effectiveness provided the right support can place him in the C-Rank.

    I'm also gonna bring back up Takion's nomination of Bisharp in D-Rank. Bisharp is usable in OU. With 125 Attack, a great boosting move in Swords Dance, a myriad of resistances, and strong priority in Sucker Punch, Bisharp has just enough to be modestly viable in OU. He can switch in on a Pokemon after they clicked DM or Outrage, so he can set up, and be a vicious sweeper outright. His power is pretty damn strong and can hit a lot for serious damage after a boost, like Alakazam, non sub Gengar, Starmie, Celebi, etc. Defiant also discourages Landorus-T, so he's an alright check to that. But however, he has noticable flaws that make him go no higher than D-Rank, like a massive Fighting weakness, which makes him vulnerable to Lucario and Terrakion unless he is behind a Sub, in which case he can just hit 'em with Low Kick or Brick Break (or even Iron Head in the latter's case). He also has a low Speed tier, which makes him ridiculously reliant on Sucker Punch. He's also a pretty frail Pokemon on the special side, so beware. Also, faces very stiff competition from Scizor as a "Steel-type spam priority user" But still Bisharp has a small amount of viability in OU, and that alone should put him in the D-Rank.

    Also nominating Ninjask for D-Rank. Ninjask has a small niche in OU with Speed Boost+Baton Pass. This famous niche can make or break a game. He does, however, have a SR weakness and is predictable, etc. So he should be D-Rank.

    Finally, nominating Quagsire for D-Rank. Small niche, too tired to explain. Original Post

    Anyways, all I gotta say.
  15. BettaOffDead

    BettaOffDead

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    I agree with Darmanitan for C-Rank. After that mofo OHKO'd my Infernape at full health (Darmanitan had scarf) and proceeded to destroy the rest of my team, I knew that thing was trouble. Very underrated Pokemon.
  16. Chou Toshio

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    Keldeo v. Cloyster, forget secret sword, Specs Hydro Pump it for the kill. Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump v. 0/0 Cloyster: 113.3% - 133.6%

    NVM rain or sp.DEF drops.

    (Hydro Pump always does more than Secret Sword).
  17. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Not to undermine what you guys are saying (I know how scary Scarfmanitan in the sun is), but Infernape is not a very good Pokémon so he's not really a meter for "Oh man this Pokémon is trouble, he just OHKOd Infernape."

    Darmanitan for C, maybe D. His Flare Blitz IS the single-most powerful attack in the game outside of Ubers (and accounting for weather-neutrality).
  18. Vemane

    Vemane

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    It's not a matter of being the best for ou. It's a matter of "a scarf pokemon just 1hkoed my resist."

    Who gives a shit what pokemon it was? Damage is calculated the same whether they are nu or uber
  19. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Except Infernape is horribly frail, so the OHKO on him is not anything to write home about. A resisted OHKO on Terrakion or Garchomp would be huge, but the Pokémon in question is already a wet paper bag.
  20. G-Von

    G-Von

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    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion in sun: 287-337 (88.58 - 104.01%) 31.25% chance to OHKO

    Obviously his Scarf set is used more, but with SF boosting his attack and negating LO recoil, I would say this is a reasonable calc.

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in sun: 274-322 (76.75 - 90.19%) guaranteed 2HKO

    That's still impressive to be honest. I think C-rank is fair for this baboon.
  21. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    It gets even scarier when you realize that CB is viable as well.

    252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion in the sun: 101.85 - 120.06%
    That's an 0HKO with a Jolly nature.
    Plus, he isn't limited for coverage, he has access to U-Turn, and he has a decent speed tier, even if it is a little lacking. Imo, he's got a niche for sun teams that just need bulky stuff gone. D-Tier, at the very least.
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Nah CB is a bit pointless when you can use LO without the recoil.

    Anyway i agree with Darmanitan for C rank! I thought it was already there, as it is one of the most fierce sun abusers.

    And i have posted this somewhen in the past but it got ignored:

    So Slowking for C rank!

    Finally, i agree with Ninjask and Quagsire in D rank. Ninjask has a strong nihce on BP pass teams, and is one of the main reasons that those teams are such a bitch to deal with. Quagsire has the niche of stopping several threatening set-up sweepers such as DDnite, DDMence, NP Thund-T, and SD Terrakion, which no other wall in the tier can claim to stop.
  23. BluhBluh

    BluhBluh

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    The problem with Abomasnow is that he's both fragile and slow, which is not a good thing in a metagame where fast, heavy hitters usually prevail. Just comparing him with other weather inducers isn't enough. You have to see how he fares against the whole metagame. And with priority users like Scizor and Breloom running around in the metagame, Abomasnow can't survive alone. Therefore, he needs bulky team support that can take down these threats, which is difficult in a hail team, but is possible in anti-weather. Yes, he's the only effective hail inducer in OU, but he needs significant support to last long.
  24. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Yea, I agree with alexwolf in moving Slowking to C. Its high special defense allows it to be a very solid Keldeo/Specs Politoed counter, and Dragon Tail is a nifty move that Slowbro doesn't have access to. It definitely has strong competition with other bulky Waters (like Jellicent), but I think Regenerator alone keeps Slowking in contention.
  25. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene MY GIANT ALL-CAPS SIXTY CHARACTER CUSTOM LOSER TITLE OF DOOM
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    Alright. I was browsing through the list, and I noticed that it didn't include Empoleon of all things. So, I'd like to nominate Empoleon for at least C Tier.

    [​IMG]
    Empoleon @ Petaya Berry | Torrent
    Modest | 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe | 0 Atk
    Substitute | Agility | Surf | Ice Beam


    Empoleon can serve as a somewhat decent special wall that tends to be overshadowed by Jirachi and Heatran, and it can also serve as one of the best special sweepers in the tier, thanks to its SubPetaya set, as seen above, which will be the main focus of my post. First, some damage calcs (these assume that Petaya Berry and Torrent have been activated, and rain is down on the field, unless specified otherwise):
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 180-212 (59.4 - 69.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 379-447 (93.81 - 110.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi in rain: 189-222 (46.78 - 54.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 301-355 (46.16 - 54.44%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 262-310 (40.8 - 48.28%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in rain: 220-259 (60.43 - 71.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in rain: 281-331 (69.55 - 81.93%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Slowking in rain: 204-241 (51.77 - 61.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 217-256 (58.96 - 69.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

    Now, these damage calcs may look impressive, but there are few Pokemon that Empoleon simply isn't getting past. Those Pokemon are Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Jellicent, and Jynx. In addition, faster Fighting-types, of which there are plenty in OU, give Empoleon problems, thanks to its weakness to Steel-type moves and only okay speed. Now, proper team support (i.e. entry hazards and something to take care of Fighters) can help Empoleon overcome this problem.

    For teammates, I'd say that Politoed is the best candidate for team support since Drizzle powers up Empoleon's Surfs to astronomical levels. In addition, Politoed itself can act as a lure for the first three Pokemon, smacking them hard with a powerful Hidden Power Grass. Thundurus-T would be Empoleon's next best teammate, since it resists all of Empoleon's weaknesses and can clear out bulky waters which Empoleon has trouble with using its powerful Electric STAB (if it got Hurricane, it could also clear out Grass-types, but that's a different story for a different day...). Gothitelle is another partner to be considered, since it can trap and kill certain threats that can impede an Empoleon sweep (e.g. Breloom, Specs Keldeo, Terrakion).

    tl;dr: Empoleon for C Tier at the very least.

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