The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. False Sense

    False Sense

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    I'd like to disagree with Lucario for C-Rank. Now, I don't really have anything to say about the agility set, but you mention that the Swords Dance set is slow. You realize that one of Lucario's main selling points is it's powerful priority, right? Once it gets a boost, which isn't too difficult thanks to it's great resistances and Justified, it can plow right through teams if their physical wall is gone. It can even run dual priority with Bullet Punch to get past things that resist/are immune to ExtreemSpeed. It is held back by it's frailness, I'll admit that, but that's why it's B-Rank. If it was bulkier it would have a solid shot at A-Rank.
  2. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    Extremespeed is resisted by common pokemon such as terrakion and gengar. Also better users of priority moves include scizor and breloom. Breloom can check pokemon such as terrakion while having a powerful bullet seed for bulky waters. Also, bullet punch lucario is comepletely walled by jellicent. The final nail in the coffin is that Fighting types and garchomp are pretty common in the meta, so lucario has a hard time getting up a swords dance.
  3. False Sense

    False Sense

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    I find it ironic that you contradict yourself there. You mention that Extreemspeed is resisted by common pokemon like Terrakion and Gengar, but you then mention how Bullet Punch Lucario is walled by Jellicent. In case you haven't noticed, Bullet Punch is pretty much there BECAUSE of Terrakion and Gengar. You know what else is walled by Jellicent? Keldeo, but he's being nominated for S-Rank.

    I'm gonna reiterate this, but Lucario has massive destructive potential if it can set up; the problem is just making sure certain walls are removed and getting a chance to set up. These flaws make it not quite cut for A-Rank, despite it's fantastic sweeping abilities. For this reason, it's put in B-Rank, which I think is quite suitable. C-Rank is just way too low for something with that great of sweeping potential.
  4. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    Well I guess your right about Lucario being a great sweeper and c rank being too low.
    Also i wouldn't say Keldeo should be S rank. It's stabs are amazing, but it get walled by jellicent, amoongus, D-nite etc. However I agree with Chomp being S rank. Chomp has a few common weaknesses but can prove to be highly effective as a sub + Swords dance user or even a wall. It can Function in any whether and only skarmovy and bronzong resist its STABs and can run fire blast to get past them. Finally it sit at a great speed tier. 102 speed means it can narrowly outpace top tier threats such as thundorous T, mence and landorous.
  5. Takion

    Takion

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    After Stealth Rock and a swords dance (which isnt very difficult to do) Lucario becomes one of the deadlist sweepers. OHKO Skarmory is no joke. Not to mention Jellicent, gliscor, L.T are really the only things that can effectively wall it...even a Hippodown (mixed wall) has no chance...

    2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Hippowdon: 391-461 (93.09 - 109.76%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    I personally run crunch on Lucario as it easier for me to counter gengar and terrakion rather than Jellicent (which also gets OHKO with crunch).

    the Lati twins cant survive an ES either unless they are a bulkier build. If its anything, there should be more discussion on moving it up rather than down. However, L-therian, Gliscor, keep him at bay.
  6. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    I already discussed lucario staying in B-rank. Anyway, I woulk like to nominate heraboss for C Rank. While it is kept at bay by the many ground/flying types, it can be a powerful force. Scarf heracross can easily beat pokemon such as terrakion and tyranitar and begin snowballing moxie boost. It has night slash to deal with gengar and other ghost. Low speed and predictable moves are it's main faults, but heracross will often pull its wieght in the long run.
  7. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
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    i'm not about to take a position on lucario to distinguish whether it should be a rank or b rank, but i'd just like to say that there's no way lucario should even be considered for c rank. it is one of the most potent sweepers bw has to offer, with above-average speed, incredible fighting stab in close combat, great typing that allows it to set up easily, and a surprisingly deep movepool that includes nifty coverage moves such as ice punch and crunch, as well as two excellent priority options in extremespeed and bullet punch. depending on what set it runs, nothing is safe from this metal monster, besides max/max+ hippowdon and sometimes slowbro. with a little residual damage on key opposing pokemon and a swords dance under its belt, lucario is capable of taking out entire teams with ease. its power should not be underestimated by any means.
  8. oSeasons

    oSeasons
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    Lucario is extremely underated.. with SD up, if you don't have full knowledge of its move set, you could easily be swept late game :x Some players run both extreme speed AND bullet punch which can catch many people off guard. You send out terrakion thinking that you can outspeed lucario and kill it but it proceeds with bullet punching you to the face :<
  9. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Yea, it's very hard to outright counter Lucario with anything...though, Jellicent is a pretty safe bet these days, since they've been drifting away from Crunch from what I've noticed. Luke is also flexible outside of purely sweeping, since he's able to revenge weakened sweepers with Extremespeed, like DD Dragonite.

    Mid-High B rank seems like the right place for him.
  10. MX42

    MX42

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    Nominating Roserade and Frosslass for C rank.


    With the suspecting of Deo-D, Hyper offense teams are looking for a substitute, and these two fit the bill perfectly. Both of them are fast, can hit decently offensively, and can set up spikes rather easily. Roserade has Toxic Spikes and better special defense, while Frosslass has a better typing in this metagame, higher speed, and can spinblock. However, both are weak to incredibly powerful offensive types, such as rock, fire, and ice...
  11. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Lucario is in no way C-Tier. It is not the best sweeper, but is one of the deadliest. Good luck trying to find something that can tank a Swords Dance-boosted Extremespeed that is sufficiently fast to not be defeated by Close Combat AND can OHKO back. This is one of the main reasons why I like to use fast, bulky sweepers.

    Also, those who say that Extremespeed is resisted by so many Pokémon forgot that both Mach Punch and Bullet Punch are resisted by even more faster Pokémon. Steel-type is already an awful offensive typing by itself, and Fighting is a type that tends to be resisted by fast Pokémon, but not by slower ones. Extremespeed does not have these problems. Also, both Mach Punch and Bullet Punch can be bypassed by another priority move if the foe is faster. Extremespeed doesn't have this problem; no priority move has higher priority than Extremespeed.
  12. lolazo

    lolazo

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    no durant T.T i do a post of durant in C tier and no attention for this :(

    and keldeo in S is no-brainer he only need rain, pursuit or goth support and kills everything with stabs and hp coverage

    i nominated raikou in c tier, please with torn-t in ubers is better than jolteon, jolteon advantages are volt absorb and outspeed... alakazam and duggy but raikou had better bulk, calm mind and the use of event moves like aura sphere and weather ball

    and suicune in b-c tier, crocune is soo good and can sweep easily thanks his good bulk and excelent check/counter for terrakion, keldeo, some versions of jirachi, lando, politoed, ttar and other threats, resttalk is great for he and scald burn is awesome
  13. Deglas

    Deglas

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    I agree with Froslass for C rank. It is a useful Spiker, and Cursed Body+Focus Sash can render some things useless against it, giving it another turn of Spikes. (example: Terrakion uses Stone Edge to take Froslass down to the Sash, Cursed Body activates, Terrakion is forced out because SE is disabled and CC does no damage). Froslass also has good STABs and usable SpA, letting it beat certain things with a more offensive Spiker set. Shadow Ball can be used to 3HKO speedy Deo-D, and also breaks through Magic Bounce Pokemon and Starmie, Ice Beam beats Donphan, and HP Fire can take down Forretress (as well as luring things like Scizor for a KO). It can just set Spikes in Tentacruel's face, as it is immune to Rapid Spin and Tentacruel cannot hit Froslass that hard (uninvested Scald vs. uninvested Froslass is only a 3HKO!). Froslass also benefits from the threat of a fast Taunt or Destiny Bond, leaving the opponent pressured as to what attack they should use.
  14. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    Nobody listened to me agreeing about lucario being b rank.
    I thnk that these two pokemon should instead be B-rank. They are faster and more powerful than deo-d while trading in some bulk. It's a good idea to run focus sash on both of them. Roserade can hadle leads like ttar while frosslass can spinblock.
  15. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Roserade is pretty good, its typing helps it out with taking on Keldeo, it has access to Sleep Powder, which is nice, it can lay both kinds of Spikes, and it has good power and a usable offensive movepool. It is, however, somewhat frail physically, its typing is a mixed blessing, and Sleep Powder isn't Spore by any means. I'm okay with it being C-Rank, but I feel B-Rank is pushing it a bit. B-Rank

    Froslass has the niche of Spikes, Spinblocking, and Speed, and it has options like Destiny Bond and Thunderwave to mess people over, as well as Cursed Body, which can be insanely annoying. That's it, though. It makes for one hell of a shaky spinblocker, seeing as it has rather thin defenses and lacking offenses, meaning that it doesn't inhibit many things from switching in on it. Its defensive typing, put bluntly, sucks, and its ability doesn't help it much when it gets one shotted by many, many things. I'd put it in D-Rank, maaybe a low C-Rank at best. It has a very small niche, but it can be used if you need both hazards and a spin blocker at the same time.

    While I'm at it, I'd like to see Toxicroak drop to C-Tier. Toxicroak has two sets you will see, SD and SubPunch, which are both doing the same thing. It has really mediocre stats, and its typing has some interesting resists, but brings a couple huge weaknesses to the table. It can only be used in rain, due to its ability Dry Skin, which is good, but not enough, imo, to make it worth using Croak. It also faces competition from Lucario and Breloom, too, who are usable on a larger number of teams, and have many advantages over Toxicroak. I wanna hear your opinions on it, though. Thoughts?

    EDIT: Almost forgot this, Toxicroak is supposed to be able to counter Keldeo with its typing and ability, but...
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (47.88 - 56.67%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after weather (rain)
    That is one hell of a shaky counter if it can get 2HKOed by a STAB attack. That's ignoring all entry hazards and prior damage, too.
  16. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    I gues your right about b rank being a bit too high.However toxicroak should stay in B Rank. While it only functions effectively in rain, it can wreck havoc with it's sub+bulk up set. I used to think it was bad too, until I almost got swept by croak. It has a pretty good defensive typing and can switch in to most water types and wall them. Toxicroak also has sucker punch, meaning it can achieve perfect coverage.
  17. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
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    roserade is definitely deserving of c tier seeing as it's basically a subpar celebi. as the op states as the definition of a c tier pokemon, "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks." roserade certainly falls under this category, as it's eclipsed by celebi in almost every category. celebi is faster, has better all-around bulk, a greater movepool, more reliable recovery, and more versatility in sets (sdef, defensive, baton pass, nasty plot, etc.) whereas roserade can only really run a sdef hazard layer set. speaking of hazards, that is the one semi-advantage that roserade has over celebi: it has access to spikes and toxic spikes, whereas celebi only has rocks (although rocks are arguably better than both hazards combined, hence the "semi-advantage").

    froslass is a completely different story. i've tried and tried, and i still don't see a niche for this thing in the ou tier. without snow cloak legal anymore, its only viable set is a lead sasher that essentially spikes up, attempts to catch something with destiny bond, and then dies. one of the major flaws of this set is that it's completely beaten by any variant of tyranitar. ttar uses crunch as froslass gets a layer of spikes and is brought down to its sash, then sand finishes it off. froslass can't even use destiny bond, because when weather kills you, destiny bond won't activate even if the pokemon bonded to is the weather inducer in question. it also has literally no offensive presence, with a measly base special attack of 80 and a movepool consisting of ice beam, shadow ball, thunderbolt, and not much else. and with defenses of 70 / 70 / 70, plus a weakness to steel, it can't even act as a decent spinblocker. there is no place for froslass in ou.
  18. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    Frosslass seems like a D rank pokemon. It can spinblock and set up spike, but nothing more. As the definition says, it has a small niche, but can be more trouble than it's worth.
    Also, I Think that scolipede and Accelgor should be added to C rank. They can threaten Ttar leads while preforming thier duties properly. The also can preform much more like Baton pass and Choice specs and have pretty good speed. Being able to outspeed Lati@s is an incredible feet. However they both lack bulk and their power may be underwhelming at times.

  19. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Captain Underpants
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    Spikes, Tspikes, and Sleep Powder are big perks that Roserade has and Celebi doesn't. It also can be used as a Tspike counter, where as Celebi hates Tspikes. Whilst Celebi does get SR, it shouldn't be hard to fit rocks onto another member of your team given how widespread it is. Spikes, Tspikes and sleep are harder to do so. I wouldn't conclude that Roserade is "completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks." Rather, the B rank definition is more fitting: "Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category."
  20. Deglas

    Deglas

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    Lavos Spawn you might want to try the set I run. I run Focus Sash, Cursed Body, 252 SpA/252+ Spe Spikes, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, HP Fire.
    It tends to either get two layers down reliably or one layer and a major KO (like Scizor). I've had great success with it, and it's unexpectedness (most expect Taunt, Detiny Bond, and an uninvested attacking move) has sometimes allowed it to deal damage to large parts of an opponents team (an example that has happened to me. Opponent leads with Scizor, is fried by HP Fire. They figure that HP Fire was my one attacking move, send in Dragonite to set up. Dragonite eats an Ice Beam and is in KO range now, they send in something else, which I can hit with Shadow Ball. That goes down, and I get a layer of Spikes.) It also beats all spinners/Magic Bouncers/Deo-D one-on-one, other than Tentacruel. And, as I mentioned before, Scald is only a 3HKO without investment, meaning you get 3 layers down. 80 base SpA isn't that bad either, especially when you consider how useful its STABs are in the current metagame. Also, its speed means that with Focus Sash it only needs to 2HKO a threat to eliminate it. Froslass is also bulkier than you give it credit for. An uninvested Landorus-T (and this is only for the sake of example) using Stone Edge on an uninvested froslass has only a 68.75% chance to OHKO. Tyranitar still sucks though, but you can always not lead with Froslass and hold it in reserve as a semi-offensive Pokemon/emergency Spiker. I personally would actually be willing to push Froslass for B rank as it is very useful, but not good enough for a higher rank.
  21. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 I can't wait to bomb some Dondongos!
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    I already did this, but nobody cared:P.
    I would like to nominate Metagross for B Rank. It is not as good as it was in D/P, but it still is a great pokemon to use. While it is often labeled outclassed by Jirachi and bronzong, the combination of raw bulk and power give it a niche of being a bulky attacker. With full HP investment, Metagross can tank hits like life orb Thundorus-T's Tbolt. It also has good coverage, if you give it the right moves. However, it does have the four moveslot syndrome
  22. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    I'm not sure Metagross makes it to B in the current meta, he's definitively outclassed by Jirachi because of its shallow movepool and the inferior special bulk. Its STABs are not good against any important threat on the meta barring Terrakion -and Keldeo I guess, but you cannot really outspeed it and its attacks hurt quite a lot-, its coverage moves are mediocre and they barely allow it to perform correctly. It needs lots of support because you cannot just put it into any team and expect it to perform. It has its strengths, but I think it remains pretty niche.
  23. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

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    Anyone else think Tyranitar should be S rank specially now with Genesect and Tornadus-T gone? I used to think it was a mediocre pokemon but after using him for hundreds of battles it's a really good pokemon I would almost go as far as to say he's broken. The set I'm talking about is Choice Band Tyranitar. With the sandstorm boosting his special defense he has little trouble coming in on battle unlike Terrakion and Politoed. Sure common weaknesses to fighting ground and steel suck but that's why you have 5 other Pokemon. Tyranitar is a huge threat first and weather inducer second. Tyranitar is one of the few pokemon that can OHKO Deoxys-D limiting it to only setting up Stealth Rock. Tyranitar can easily eliminates non-defensive Politoed, Jolteon, Blissey, Heatran, Celebi, Starmie, Stoutland (locked into Return) Jellicent, Gothitelle, Lati@s, Xatu, Espeon, Magnezone etc. There's probably a ton more that I missed but this is just from the top of my head. This is just one set though. Tyranitar can also fit on any team and reliably set up Stealth Rock. Now let's compare Tyranitar to Politoed who is currently S-rank. Sure Politoed may have Drizzle but can't hit that hard without Choice Specs and any team who doesn't have a water resist Pokemon is just asking for trouble honestly. When using Politoed you will find that it's very difficult to win the weather war against sand teams with either Hippo or Tyranitar. Tyranitar 2HKO's defensive Politoed with Crunch and relying on a Scald burn isn't a good idea to win the weather war. Saving Politoed until the end is also a bad idea as most of the battle would have been sand so you will have to switch in Politoed sooner or later to activate Drizzle. Now let's compare Drizzle to Sandstorm. Drizzle helps the team in a lot of ways such as weakening fire moves and powering up water moves. It also makes stuff like Thunder and Hurrican have 100% accuracy and helps abilities such as Rain Dish and Hydration. Now Sandstorm. It makes anything not Steel Rock or Ground take damage every turn also helps against Focus Sashes. Boosts special defense of Rock type Pokemon looking at you Tyranitar and Terrakion. Terrakion is already pretty bulky for a offensive Pokemon but a special defense boost means it's going to be hard to knock it out with a special move. Pokemon such as Sandslash and Stoutland get their speed doubled in sandstorm turning them into scary pokemon. I think that's pretty much it? so yeah Drizzle is more helpful to a team than Sandstream but the problem is rain teams rely way too much on Politoed to be effective while sand teams don't rely on sand that much. Now when comparing it to Hippowdon who I have heard some of you argue that it's better at winning the weather war. I found this to be not true. First of all Hippowdon struggles against Politoed and Ninetales more so than Tyranitar. Second while it may have amazing physical bulk it really can't deal much damage back and will have to keep on recovering totally ruining your momentum. Sand is really mainly to have an answer to other weather but as I said earlier Tyranitar is a huge threat first so it is why it is so easy to fit on any team because not only does your team gain an answer to other weather but it also gains a Pokemon that can tear holes at the same time which is why I believe Tyranitar is an S-rank Pokemon.
    Tyranitar fits that very well.
  24. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    It's niche. I love Metagross, the manliest Pokémon to ever exist, but he's terribly niche. Steel isn't a very good STAB (it's more a testament to the rest of Scizor that he makes it work so damn well) and his poor speed undermines his offensive. He's an underrated Stealth Rocker, though.

    Okay, for the longest time I thought he had 70/130/70 defenses, and I just checked and he has 80/130/90 defenses. That's pretty fucking good, moreso when backed up by Steel/Psychic, but Metagross is still a C-rank Pokémon at best.
  25. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Not when Terrakion, Keldeo, Scizor, and Breloom exist he's not. And Sand is not half as good as Rain.

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