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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    I guess your right. I often have success with metagross. However it's not good in the current meta.
    I thought at first Ttar should be S Rank. However tyranitar has a few problems. It is 4x weak to fighting and has a bunch of other common weakness's. 2 Ttar has a low 61 base speed. And 3, Tyranitar has no recovery.
  2. team grassfire

    team grassfire

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    I would like to nominate Sigilyph for D-Rank. I checked and this was brought up once before, but I think the set being suggested wasn't right for the ou metagame. The cosmic power set is extremely prone to critical hits as well as pokemon using lum berry or substitute alongside set up moves. It also failed to invest in sigilyph's very useful speed.

    Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Spd / 192 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Psycho Shift
    - Roost
    - Air Slash
    - Whirlwind

    This set has a few crucial differences that make sigilyph more effective in ou. First of all is the ev spread. With the speed investment sigilyph can outrun up to adamant toxicroak, allowing it to burn many of ou's slower physical attackers before they can attack, such as mamoswine, toxicroak, and dragonite. The other crucial change in this set is in the last two moves. Air slash allows sigilyph to dispose of breloom (who otherwise isn't really countered by sigilyph due to how muhc bullet seed does-sigilyph is only a crit or two away with its cosmic power set) with ease, especially since sigilyph outspeeds even jolly breloom and 4x resists fighting. It also allows it to do a much better job against conkeldurr, who otherwise actually counters sigilyph thanks to guts. Celebi is also dealt with much better, which is helpful since stall teams often use perish song celebi as their cosmic power sigilyph counter The inclusion of an attacking move also allows sigilyph to deal with taunts much better and be more useful late game when something needs to be finished off.

    The last move is the biggest change. Whirlwind allows sigilyph to do three things. Firstly, it stops him from becoming set up bait. Secondly, it can drag out physical attackers like scizor or dragonite, and force the opposing team to take a burn on something. Thirdly, it allows sigilyph to basically guarantee victory against opposing stall teams since their only counter will be heatran, who can just be continually forced out as sigilyph can heal lava plume damage on whatever other stall mon is dragged out. Overall, sigilyph's immunity to hazards, sand, hail, and status make it very useful to stall teams perhaps the best spreader of burns in the metagame, earning it a small niche in D-rank.
  3. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    I would like to nominate Ninetales for B-Rank. Because of it's subpar defensive typing, it takes 25% damage from SR and loses weather wars against sand and rain because of a low 81 Special attack (even special Ttar hits harder). Unlike other weather inducers, ninetales is fairly useless outside of providing sun. Also, it will lose to pokemon like rotom-w and keldeo. Finally, 100 base speed isn't what it use to be which means Thundorus-T and Landorus-I narrowly outspeed it.
  4. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    It also gives out free Flash Fire boosts to everything, hands out free Agilities to specific Pokemon, and turns the other version of Work Up into Nasty Plot + Swords Dance in the same move.
    Ninetales is shit. The boosts it gives out are not. Ninetales singlehandedly makes Venusaur, Lilligant, and Victreebell viable, makes Infernape useful, and completely flips the tables on Rain and Sand (until they switch in, obviously).
    Ninetales is meant to be a supporter, and no other set is worth using, but it supports an entire playstyle by itself. Keep it at A-Rank.
  5. Old Jack

    Old Jack

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    Ninetales has a nifty answer to other weather inducers called sunnyday to maintain the sun with righ prediction and then throw solarbeam in their faces or just switch to another partner. Plus he usually runs wow to cripple physical sweepers. I'd not say Ninetales "can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame" but can be very annoying.
    Drought is the only reason Ninetales is OU but this ability is so huge that it grants to pokemons like Venusaur to sweep whole unprepared teams and this why Ninetales deserves this A-rank.
  6. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    However, ninetales loses almost every weather war, unless it runs sunny day. Drought is a great ability, but it isn't enough to make it A Rank. It will often switch out against politoed and ttar (bar sunny day variats) and can only switch in 5-4 times within a match. Like Hippopatas in LC, Ninetales requires much support. Also, sun is not as viable as it used to be because of the massive usage of rain. Also, Terrakion and keldeo can easily dispose of ninetales although terrakion needs to watch out for will o wisp.
  7. Adams

    Adams

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    Ninetales is only remotely viable for sun, but that's a major battle strategy. That alone keeps it S-Rank
    EDIT: Derp Meant A-Rank
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    why is ninetales suddenly s-rank when it's the least useful weather starter, even worse than abomasnow, and sun isn't even the best weather in the current metagame? hippowdon and tyranitar are still a-rank, and they're better pokemon than ninetales is, regardless of ability. politoed's only s-rank because it brings what is currently the best weather in bw2 to the table, plus it has a diverse movepool and can pull off several different viable sets. ninetales only has its specially defensive set to rely on, everything else it can do is really low quality. so basically, yeah sun's a good strategy, but it's not good enough to make ninetales s-rank, and neither is ninetales itself.
  9. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Updated
    ==========================
    Froslass added to C-tier
    Roserade added to C-tier
    Keldeo up from A-tier ===> S-tier
    ===========================

    About Garchomp & Keldeo:

    If you haven't noticed already, Keldeo is now S-tier, but Garchomp stayed in A-tier. I considered the arguments towards placing Chomp in S-tier, but ended decided against moving it up. It's important to keep the status-quo for S-tier (I can't just let any Pokemon in) and while Garchomp is really good, I just don't see it as an S-tier Pokemon. It's hard to pinpoint why Chomp isn't S-tier, but it doesn't have that absurd power that Keldeo, Landorus and Terrakion bring to the table.

    About Conkeldurr:

    Tornadus-T may be gone, but it's slow speed and susceptibility to weather teams still exist. More importantly, Conkeldurr just isn't being used by anyone good atm. I want to see better arguments before I can move it to B-tier.
  10. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Iron Fist HAS been released (the exact Ability I've been waiting for months for), so if anyone wants to run the one true SubPuncher (I'm done with OU), please do and get back to here. I ran it without Iron Fist once upon a time and it put the hurt on a lot of stuff. He also has his Choice Band set which is just all kinds of stupid powerful.
  11. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    iron fist is actually really good for conkeldurr, especially focus punch, which (including iron fist and stab) hits an astounding base power of 269.98, which is stronger than almost any other non-lo, non-choice attack in the game. mach punch gets boosted to base power 71.99 after stab, drain punch goes up to 134.99, and ice punch hits 89.99 base power. all the moves you should be using on conkeldurr get a respectable power boost. the only drawback, of course, is that now there's no power boost from guts, meaning getting burnt is now a detriment instead of a benefit to you. if conkeldurr's special defense wasn't so mediocre, i'd consider arguing for it being a-rank, but it's just not there yet in my opinion with latios and keldeo still everywhere.
  12. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    I know this isn't really valid but i just wanted to mention that Conkeldurr pretty much nets a free kill if you set up the sub. Setting up a sub is hard but LOOK AT DAT DOMMAGE.

    252+ Atk Fighting Gem Iron Fist Conkeldurr Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 307-362 (101.65 - 119.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    i mean the fighting gem is a bit of an exaggeration because you're probably gonna want to run lefties on a subpunch set (otherwise you get worn down real easily) but the damage is definitely pretty real, after rocks a focus punch and a mach punch takes out latios every time, and you can just predict the switch and ice punch away if you aren't into the whole subpunch thing and want to run drain punch instead. in addition to that i think a 4 attacks conkeldurr set with iron fist isn't such a bad idea, since in this super fast paced metagame you often don't have time to set up and there's no reason to anyways if your opponent still has a latios or keldeo in the rain around. might as well have excellent coverage packing drain punch / mach punch / ice punch / payback, then you can even beat stuff most conks can't, like subdisable gengar and such. i dunno, i probably need to go test it out a bit before i claim it's a great set but it sounds pretty solid to me on paper.
  14. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    What about scolipede and accelgor? Anyway, conkeldurr is a great pokemon in ou and Iron fist has only made it better. mach punch, the elemental punches, Hammer arm, and drain punch all now get a free attack boost. The sub punch set now has a huge boost in power as a STAB iron fist focus punch is gonna destroy most of the metagame. It also gets perfect coverage with Payback. In fact, its iron fist boosted focus punch is one of the most powerful moves in the game. Iron fist also makes it one of the best tyranitar counters. It's definetly B Rank at worst
  15. Shikyo

    Shikyo

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    I'm not an amazing player, but I just haven't seen Terrakion work like ever, not when I've played as him or when I've played against him. He gets revenge killed by priority all day no matter how many Rock Polish you have(Hi Scizor and Breloom), he has trouble switching in on many things, and stone edge still is really inaccurate and tends to miss at the worst times. He also needs both Rock Polish and Swords Dance to sweep because without Swords Dance he can't really oneshot stuff because his attack isn't that great, and without rock polish he's oneshot by every common scarfer, especially considering how close combat works.

    I'm not saying he's bad by any means, but he feels quite overrated. I think that Keldeo is far scarier for example. Lati@s in my opinion are also significantly better as sweepers than Terrakion as well, since they have a much easier time setting up.

    I don't know, maybe I'm bad, but it feels strange to me that I get an easy cleanup with Scarf Keldeo like every other game, and a random 1v6 sweep with Calm Mind Recover Substitute Latias every few games, but with Terrakion it's always getting revenge killed or never getting an opportunity to set up. It doesn't even feel like a threat in the opposing team either. His special defense in sand doesn't even help when the stuff that oneshots him is generally physical. I guess one could run it as a scarfer but I don't see the point when Keldeo exists.

    I would say that Terrakion has the Wesker-syndrome from Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3: He's amazing against 99% of the pokemon, but some of the top tier pokemon like Scyther counter him really well. Personally I'd place Lati@s into S-tier if Terrakion can be there as well, I don't see them being worse.
  16. Adams

    Adams

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    I meant to say A-Rank, not S-Rank. Those damn S and A keys together lol
  17. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    Scyther is nonexistent in ou. Anyway, terrakion is S-rank because of powerful STAB moves, high speed and attack, great bulk, Nice typing and not being relient on weather. Keldeo can sweep teams only in the rain. In the sun, grass types walk all over it. Lati@s both have poor typing and often get walled by steels. Also, their stronger STAB has a major drawback, meaning they have to switch out and a weakness to pursuit makes that hard as well.
  18. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Keldeo can sweep teams period. It does not need rain support in order to do so. See its Expert Belt and tell me what what can counter all of its sets! :) I might nom it for S Rank later when DeoD gets banned and rain becomes center focus. Anyway, Keldeo is not reliant on rain so please don't say that! LO Keldeo is a powerhouse, Band Tar + SubCM Keldeo is also not bad for setting up and getting powerful, and the EB RD set on DeoD teams are also amazing for sweeping rain / sand while also stopping sun teams, all of which DeoD hate.

    I agree with everything else you said thou! :o
  19. False Sense

    False Sense

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    I'd really like to question why Keldeo is S-Rank. I've touched on this before, but I just really don't think it's quite on par with the other S-Ranks. Let's do a little comparison:

    Deoxys-D: Is virtually impossible to stop from getting hazards up, due to it's great bulk and speed. Very little can actually OHKO it. On top of this, it can beat just about all of it's checks by running the appropriate move, if it wants to.

    Landorus: It's capable of two entirely different play styles in the form of it's physical, Sand Force sets and its special, Sheer Force sets. Both have an incredible amount of power behind them and have radically different counters. It can even use surprises like Gravity to make it's super powered STAB hit literally everything in the game.

    Politoed: Drizzle. The power that it provides is incredible and currently dominates the metagame. On top of this, it naturally beats all other weather starters (bar Abomasnow) by virtue of it's typing, making it easy to keep it's own weather up. It also has some decent stats to work with, and can be very Bulky or hard hitting if you want it to. It also has a nice movepool, including some rare moves like Perish Song.

    Terrakion: It has massive attack power coupled with two extremely powerful STABs that have fantastic coverage together. Very few pokemon can actually boast to resist both, most of which aren't usually seen in OU. It can make a great Revenge Killer, and vicious Wallbreaker, or a deadly sweeper thanks to Swords Dance and Rock Polish. It even can set up Stealth Rocks for the team, while still being incredibly threatening to the opposing team.

    And now we come to Keldeo: This thing boasts a massive Special Attack stat coupled with STAB Hydro Pump, which hits like a truck, even more so in the omnipresent Rain. It also gets "mixed" coverage thanks to Secret Sword, and like Terrakion can be an effective Revenge Killer, Wall Breaker, or sweeper. Unfortunately, It has very limited coverage, and this is ultimately it's biggest problem. Outside of it's STABs, it's coverage consists of Hidden Power, and Icy Wind. Yep. That's about it. Icy Wind is hardly used anyway due to it being so weak, so that leaves Keldeo with usually just a Hidden Power (Usually Ghost or Ice), along with usually Calm Mind (for Sweeping), or Surf (for Choice sets). This extremely limited coverage is hard on it in OU, where so many pokemon resist or are flat out immune to it's STAB combination. These include Lati@s, Celebi, Dragonite (Well, ALL Dragon/Flying types), Gyarados, Jellicent (who is flat out IMMUNE to both Keldeo's STABs), Tentacruel, Starmie, Toxicroak, Venusaur (and again, ALL Grass/Poison types; this includes Amoonguss, Roserade, etc.) Slowbro/king, and so on. Mind you, these are just the pokemon that resist his STABs; the number of pokemon immune to those individual moves is much greater, which is critical for the Choice sets. So Keldeo has to rely on Hidden Power to get past these. But even then, it can only use one Hidden Power, and the list of counters is so large that one coverage move isn't enough to handle all of them. For example, HP Ice takes care of dangerous Dragons and can hurt Grass types (but keep in mind; without a boost of some kind, Hidden Power is weak), but leaves it walled by those bulky waters. HP Ghost can be used to bypass Psychic and Ghost types, a common type among the Bulky Waters it hates, but then it can't break past Dragons and Grass types.

    In short, Keldeo no doubt is a great pokemon; Hydro Pump still hits ridiculously hard. But the fact that it has SO MANY COUNTERS, and has pokemon IMMUNE to BOTH it's STABs, I just don't think it's on par with the monsters already present in S-Rank. Feel free to dispute me, though.
  20. Deglas

    Deglas

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    Abomasnow for A Rank. Someone mentioned earlier that Ninetales was the worst weather starter, so shouldn't Abomasonow be in the same tier? I freely admit that Drought>Snow Warning, but Abomasnow is a really underrated Pokemon that gives you a solid weapon against all weathers (even Sun). The yeti may have an abominable seven weaknesses, but the resit to Water and Grass STAB give it the upper hand vs. rain teams. The Ground resist is handy in general, letting it take Earthquakes when switching in, and it threatens most users of the move with its STABs. It does well vs. Sand also-- Tyranitar fears Wood Hammer, and Hippowdon doesn't want to switch into a Blizzard (despite the 70% accuracy because of Sandstream). Abomasnow also has STAB Ice Shard, giving you a check to dragons, genies, and Chlorophyll 'mons. And Hail is a nifty weather to have around, as few Pokemon in OU are immune to the damage. Abomasnow also can run a variety of sets: Scarf, Band, Leech Seed, and Expert Belt are all viable.



    And a completely unrelated Pokemon, Cradily for D Rank. It has a small niche as a special wall and anti-Rain Pokemon for Sand teams, because of its nice 86/97/107 Defenses (and its SpD is further boosted because of its Rock typing) and Storm Drain. Its Grass/Rock typing is unfortunately defensively, with weaknesses to Ice, Fighting, Steel and Bug, and with resistances only to Electric and Normal, but in Sandstorm its special bulk lets it take even non-STAB super-effective attacks with ease and Recover off the damage. Its Grass typing gives it a STAB Giga Drain, letting it threaten rain teams, abuse Strom Drain boosts, and heal simultaneously, and it can use its secondary Rock STAB for coverage vs. Flying-, Bug-, Ice- and Fire- types (and if it gets the Ancientpower boosts it becomes almost unstoppable). It has a small niche, but it is very good at filling it.
  21. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Abomasnow may match up well against some weather teams, but it has too many debilitating flaws to be considered for A-rank. The Stealth Rock weakness is one thing, but it also suffers from weaknesses to many common attacks (especially Fighting) and has average stats across the board. It hardly fits the description of A-rank, though it is still a decent 'mon
  22. Shikyo

    Shikyo

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    I totally meant to say Scizor when I said Scyther, hrmh ...

    Keldeo doesn't need rain at all, he sweeps anywhere. Being awesome in the most popular weather is just a bonus. His neutral coverage is about as good as Terrakions but he doesn't get revenged by everything


    Also physically defensive Lati@s defeat CB Scizor using Pursuit if they dragon pulse his switch-in assuming stealth rock.
  23. team grassfire

    team grassfire

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    I also believe Keldeo really should be moved down to A-Rank. While it is the best abuser of the 50% boost rain provides to water type moves, the combination of its moves is walled by a few pokemon. It can muscle past some of them with a weak hidden power, but not all, and not all at once. Keldeo also, unlike the other two offensive S-ranked mons, cannot effectively boost its speed to sweep. Landorus and terrakion both constantly threaten to reach untouchable levels of speed with rock polish, which unfortunately lacks a water type counter part. Keldeo can use a choice scarf, but then it has no hope of beating any of its counters. It can also try sub salac, but that leaves it either unable to boost its special attack, or completely walled by a few pokemon like jellicent, latias, and bulky dragonite. Keldeo has all the characteristics of an A-ranked ou offensive mon (extreme power, decent bulk, and a few coverage gaps, see garchomp), but none of the S-ranked capabilities (perfect coverage, extreme power, ability to boost crucial stats, and the ability to beat nearly every one of their counters given the right conditions).

    While I am on the topic of what makes an S-Ranked mon I would like to nominate dragonite. It has so many defensive and offensive perks it is ridiculous not to put it in S-Rank. It can attack Physically with perfect coverage, boost its speed and attack, attack specially with perfect coverage, use strong priority, wall a significant portion of the metagame, is almost invulnerable if it can achieve full health through rapid spin or some other form of anti stealth rock support or roost at the appropriate opportunities, and most importantly, dragonite can beat every one of its counters without detracting from its overall purpose on its team. In my opinion he is the most deserving of the S-ranked title out of all of ou. Seriously, name me a method for dealing with dragonite, and I can probably name a reasonable way to beat that method. This isn't even completely true of landorus, who has no way to beat cresselia or bulky scarf rotom-W. Dragonite for S-Rank.
  24. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    You could say the same thing about Ninetales, and I'd argue that the fox is actually quite the worse of the two. The only real argument that keeps Abo below rank A is that Hail is not nearly as useful as sun by a mile.
  25. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    That's the crux of the matter. The weather Ninetales provides puts him at A. Remember, both Politoed and Ninetales were NU last generation, and beyond Drizzle and Drought, they did not receive anything close to put them where they are. Their respective auto-weathers are that good.

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