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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    I must ask. Why isn't ferrothorn S-Rank? It can literally demolish most teams with leech seed, spikes and SR. Access to two powerful moves give it much offensive presence and allows it to use a CB set. Only tentacruel and forretress can spin against him because the best rapid spinner loses to him.

    Also, forretress should also be A-Rank. While it faces major competition with ferrothorn, access to T-Spikes, Rapid spin and V-switch give it better utility. It can get up at least one layer of spikes thanks to sturdy and maybe two because I'm not sure if the custab berry is released.
  2. BettaOffDead

    BettaOffDead

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    Fighting and Fire types make ferrothorn cry. Especially with SR/Spikes support. And no, Ferrothorn does not have much offensive presence unless the pokemon is weak to grass or steel. 94 base attack is crap in OU.

    With stealthrock and spikes being so common, Forretress's sturdy is broken and thus he cannot always get at least one layer of hazards.
  3. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    Powerful stab's make it's attack pretty viable in ou. Also, ferrothorn is alway used in the rain so fire attack will do less damage. Lead Forretress is a pretty viable strategy, only being ruined by the rare deoxys-D and terrakion leads.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Just here to say that although Terrakion can prevent Forretress from getting hazards up with Taunt, it is maimed by Gyro Ball.

    And even with Fire-type atacks nerfed by rain, they still do a lot of damage, and most teams carry Fire- or Fighting-type attacks, to which Ferrothorn can't stand. Also, nowadays Ferrothorn is dying to most neutral attacks, e.g. Tornadus' Hurricane, Landorus' Earthquake/Earth Power, Scizor's U-Turn does a lot of damage as well...
  5. nygerman

    nygerman

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    Keldeo is countered by Jelliicent, Toxicroak, and Tentacruel, hardly worth S Rank.
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    EB beats them with appropriate Hp coverage
  7. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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    This post makes me think why jellicent isn't A Rank. STAB Scald in the rain will do a lot to the likes of terrakion and has a nifty 30% burn chance. It can completely wall keldeo and some politoed. Jellicent can also pair up with ferrothorn to forn an amazing defensive core.
  8. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Landorus is countered by Skarmory and Bronzong. Terrakion is countered by Gliscor and Slowbro. Hydreigon isn't countered by anything but physically defensive Chansey, and even then it might be a trolling Choice Band Hydreigon, but Hydreigon is only B-rank. What's your point? Unless you're countered by half the metagame, having a few counters doesn't mean a Pokémon isn't S-rank.

    Keldeo is still probably the most dangerous sweeper in the OU metagame. LO Keldeo 2HKOs standard Ferrothorn under rain with some Spikes. Not with Secret Sword, but with Hydro Pump. It's mind-bendingly strong.
  9. False Sense

    False Sense

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    My point was that there are just SO MANY things that Keldeo can't break past, even with HP coverage. You say that unless half the metagame counters it, it can still be worthy of S-Rank. Well, it may not be half, but it's a pretty high number. I can understand that the sheer power of Hydro Pump can put it up in S-Rank, but I just wanted to get my point across that unlike some of the other S-Rank pokemon, it's pretty easy to stop without even taking it into consideration while team building.
  10. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    That's not at all accurate. I've had by-all-accounts solid teams crumble under rain-boosted Surfs from Keldeo. Not from any old Water-type boosted by the rain, but from Keldeo specifically. And your claim of SO MANY THINGS is not true. You have (and all of these are SpDef variants) Celebi, Jellicent, Tentacruel, and Amoongus. Sure, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, and Toxicroak are immune to Hydro Pump and Surf, but HP coverage and Secret Sword do buckets of damage on their own.
  11. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    Hi why is Latias nowhere here? It's a damn perfect counter to Keldeo. Also, Shurtugal: the only one EB Keldeo can get past is Celebi and maybe Toxicroak. It's too fucking weak.

    Latias / Celebi / Jellicent / Tentacruel / Amoonguss

    Last time I checked, 5 counters was more than enough. Oh yeah, and these are some of the best Pokemon in the metagame.

    Not that I don't support Keldeo staying in S tier, as it's really just amazing with its power, Speed, and what have you. However, you need to actually look at everything that counters it.
  12. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Toxicroak doesn't counter Keldeo at all, it will lose if it switches into a neutral HP.
  13. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    Not against choice scarf, which is the most common set. Toxicroak can easily come in on a neutral HP then heal off the damage with dry skin and drain punch.
    252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 108-128 (35.06 - 41.55%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 165-196 (50.92 - 60.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Even against the choice specs set, toxicroak can still avoid the 2HKO with his bulk up (hp investment) set at full health factoring in Dry skin healing.
  14. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Are you trying to say that the above pokemon in S rank don't have counters. Landorus-T, Gliscor and Latias to an extent (Even Toxicroak situationally) can deal with Terrakion and yet it is S Rank.
  15. False Sense

    False Sense

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    @The Unlucky one; No, I fully acknowledge that the other S-Rank pokemon have counters. I was just saying that the number of pokemon that can safely counter them are far fewer in number than those that can counter Keldeo. Landorus-T and Gliscor are pretty much the only OU walls that can safely switch into and wall Terrakion, while things like Lati@s risk an X-Scizzor. The most reliable Terrakion counters tend to be in the lower tiers, mostly due to uncommon niche typing. The fact that they have those rare types makes them viable for just countering Terrakion. I think that shows just how powerful Terrakion is, and how hard it is to wall. Keldeo, on the other hand, has it's STABs resisted by a number of common OU pokemon. There's no need to go delving into lower tiers just to hard counter it.

    Well, I can tell by most of the posts that I'm not getting anyone to agree with me, so I suppose I'll drop this argument, unless anyone wants to back me up. I can understand why Keldeo IS S-Rank, but I'm just not sure if it's the right place for it.
  16. team grassfire

    team grassfire

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    I will back up False Sense on the keldeo for A-rank thing. Seriously, keldeo may be an extremely powerful pokemon, especially under the rain, but consider how many counters it has. Keldeo never can beat latias, only beats jellicent with offensive life orb calm mind with hp electric (and loses most of its health in the process), can only beat tentacruel with sub calm mind, can only beat toxicroak with EXTREMELY niche hiden powers, cannot beat amoongus without excelent prediction with sub calm mind, cannot beat most celebi with any set (thunder wave + psychic really offers no hope), and cannot beat latios without hitting it on the switch in with a scarf hidden power electric or ghost (terrible moves to be locked into). All of the pokemon are very ou viable (well, amoongus is sketchy in my opinion) and all of them remove any possiblity of a keldeo sweep even if they fail to counter keldeo, because keldeo cannot beat any of these (except latios, see above) and boost its speed, which will almost certainly be necessary to sweep any half decent ou team. Keldeo is the best abuser of rain boosted water attacks in ou, but it has too many counters and way too many checks to really be S-ranked. All other S-ranked offensive pokemon can beat almost every last one of their counters and still have a serious shot at sweeping the entire opposing team. Keldeo just can't compete due to it's much poorer coverage. I would really like to know how keldeo can beat its counters and sweep before I would consider it an S-ranked pokemon.
  17. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Well, apparently I have some support...

    So, before I completely stop arguing for Keldeo's movement to A-Rank, I'd like to ask an honest question. Let's look at the definition of S-Rank:


    Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.


    I've bolded the parts that I wanted to discuss. I've mentioned multiple times that Keldeo has a fair share of checks and counters in OU alone. With all those considered, is Keldeo still considered capable of "sweeping significant portions of the metagame?" Keldeo's only real flaw is that it has terrible coverage, and is walled by quite a few things; is that critical flaw mitigated by it's sheer power, along with it's other qualities? I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that.
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Here we go! This is what I've been talking about: Keldeo is similar to Kyurem-B in that simply having a "check" is not good enough. Just as you can't sponge Outrages without a physically defensive Steel-type, Keldeo cannot and will not be walled without serious, resisted bulk, or immunity. Keldeo's rain-boosted Hydro Pumps are the most powerful attack in OU, and unlike Darmanitan or Victini (whose STABs are more powerful in neutral weather [In fact, I believe that Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the second or third most powerful attack in the history of Pokémon]) Keldeo has the typing and stat spread to be one of the premier threats of OU.

    I kinda felt like I got off track on the part about checks and counters, so lemme reiterate: Keldeo is not like Terrakion where you can say "Well, I don't have room for Gliscor, but I do already have Choice Band Scizor, so he can check Terrakion." If you don't allot room specifically, very specifically, to account for Keldeo, you're gonna have a bad time.
  19. DaBiggKaboom420

    DaBiggKaboom420

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    I think the rankings need to be updated
  20. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I don't know why people still keep arguing that Keldeo has terrible coverage. Its Hydro Pump is so powerful that it doesn't matter, and as a matter of fact, Icy Wind and Hidden Power are often enough to provide coverage on many threats. Also, Keldeo has counters that it can't get past, yes; the same can be said about Landorus-I, for example. Its Sheer Force set cannot get past Celebi unless it runs Sludge Wave, which it will not run because it will lose coverage on more important things like Gliscor, opposing Landorus, and Dragon-types. This doesn't change the fact that it is solid S-Rank. Terrakion also has counters, namely physically defensive Hippowdon, as well as rare threats like Tangrowth and Golurk, all which Terrakion can hardly get past.

    Also, Keldeo can still get past its counters with the right set. For example, EB will maim Amoongus with Icy Wind, will defeat Celebi with Hidden Power Bug, Tentacruel with Hidden Power Electric, and Toxicroak with Hidden Power Psychic.
  21. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Currently experiencing a serious case of Dance Kittens
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    I would say amoongus should be upped to B rank. It is currently ranked in C, where its "crippling flaws" and being "outclassed by something in higher ranks" define it? I can say there is no way it is outclassed by anything above it; it has a completely unique playstyle by abusing regenerator + double powder to shut down many offensive pokemon, with coverage that it needs. It fares excellently against keldeo, which is extremely popular. I would say its "crippling flaw" was a weakness to hurricane--in the past I would agree with a C rank, but because its biggest killer is now gone, I would push for B rank. People don't realize how amazing regenerator is, combined with resistances to water and fighting, this thing can sponge attacks so easily.
  22. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Yea, Amoonguss is one of the meta's most underrated gems. It counters Breloom and Keldeo without being Pursuit weak, has Regenerator, and is bulky enough to consistently get off its Spore. I've laddered to the top with Amoonguss several times, and can confidently say it's at least Rank B.
  23. MC Fatigue

    MC Fatigue

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    I really don't see how a Poke like Moltres that can completely wreck anything it wants with Modest Specs Hurricane while also having some useful resistances (Scizor, Breloom, Special Lando, and more can't touch it) is ranked below something like Staraptor, which really just kills something if you get your 50/50 predictions right and then dies from recoil or Empoleon...do I even need to explain Empoleon?
    Sure, it's weak to rocks. Unless you're facing one of these awfully original DeoGar teams, Tentacruel on a rain team has a fairly easy time spinning.
    Even though it's way slower than Tornadus, it's bulkier and like previously mentioned, can come in on a number of pokes and fire off Hurricanes. Since it typically runs Modest unlike Tornadus, it hits even harder. It's also not weak to Ice Shard and resists Bullet Punch. Try it for yourselves, you can't seriously put this thing on the same level as fucking Ninjask.
  24. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    I understand the standpoint that you are in. However, Keldeo seems to be a lot more of a stress on teambuilding than Terrakion is. When you build a team, you don't really take into too much consideration as you probably can have a Scizor/BP Lucario(Yes, i know it doesn't kill) or Scarf Latios on your team. Terrakion isn't too big of a problem in most situations when teambuilding.
  25. Charro

    Charro

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    ^Agreed with this, Amoongus is pretty damn good, it can even counter Terrakion with the right spread.

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