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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.
I think the rankings need to be updated
I don't know why people still keep arguing that Keldeo has terrible coverage. Its Hydro Pump is so powerful that it doesn't matter, and as a matter of fact, Icy Wind and Hidden Power are often enough to provide coverage on many threats. Also, Keldeo has counters that it can't get past, yes; the same can be said about Landorus-I, for example. Its Sheer Force set cannot get past Celebi unless it runs Sludge Wave, which it will not run because it will lose coverage on more important things like Gliscor, opposing Landorus, and Dragon-types. This doesn't change the fact that it is solid S-Rank. Terrakion also has counters, namely physically defensive Hippowdon, as well as rare threats like Tangrowth and Golurk, all which Terrakion can hardly get past.
Also, Keldeo can still get past its counters with the right set. For example, EB will maim Amoongus with Icy Wind, will defeat Celebi with Hidden Power Bug, Tentacruel with Hidden Power Electric, and Toxicroak with Hidden Power Psychic.
I would say amoongus should be upped to B rank. It is currently ranked in C, where its "crippling flaws" and being "outclassed by something in higher ranks" define it? I can say there is no way it is outclassed by anything above it; it has a completely unique playstyle by abusing regenerator + double powder to shut down many offensive pokemon, with coverage that it needs. It fares excellently against keldeo, which is extremely popular. I would say its "crippling flaw" was a weakness to hurricane--in the past I would agree with a C rank, but because its biggest killer is now gone, I would push for B rank. People don't realize how amazing regenerator is, combined with resistances to water and fighting, this thing can sponge attacks so easily.
Yea, Amoonguss is one of the meta's most underrated gems. It counters Breloom and Keldeo without being Pursuit weak, has Regenerator, and is bulky enough to consistently get off its Spore. I've laddered to the top with Amoonguss several times, and can confidently say it's at least Rank B.
I really don't see how a Poke like Moltres that can completely wreck anything it wants with Modest Specs Hurricane while also having some useful resistances (Scizor, Breloom, Special Lando, and more can't touch it) is ranked below something like Staraptor, which really just kills something if you get your 50/50 predictions right and then dies from recoil or Empoleon...do I even need to explain Empoleon?
Sure, it's weak to rocks. Unless you're facing one of these awfully original DeoGar teams, Tentacruel on a rain team has a fairly easy time spinning.
Even though it's way slower than Tornadus, it's bulkier and like previously mentioned, can come in on a number of pokes and fire off Hurricanes. Since it typically runs Modest unlike Tornadus, it hits even harder. It's also not weak to Ice Shard and resists Bullet Punch. Try it for yourselves, you can't seriously put this thing on the same level as fucking Ninjask.
I understand the standpoint that you are in. However, Keldeo seems to be a lot more of a stress on teambuilding than Terrakion is. When you build a team, you don't really take into too much consideration as you probably can have a Scizor/BP Lucario(Yes, i know it doesn't kill) or Scarf Latios on your team. Terrakion isn't too big of a problem in most situations when teambuilding.
^Agreed with this, Amoongus is pretty damn good, it can even counter Terrakion with the right spread.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 50.93% - 59.95%
Entry hazards damage: 54
After entry hazards: 274 - 313 (63.43% - 72.45%)
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Check yes, counter no
Agree with Amoonguss to B-rank though
hardly anybody runs physically defensive amoonguss, the standard spread which is heavily invested in sdef is ohko'd after rocks by a +2 terrakion and easily 2hko'd by cb. calling amoonguss a terrakion check is just plain incorrect, especially if something's already asleep on the opponent's side of the team, because then you're not even 2hkoing terrakion in sand...
I agree that Amoonguss is good enough to be in B rank!
Btw why is Staraptor in C Rank? I think we agreed that it belongs to D rank. Very fragile, SR weak, suicidal, priority weak, slow for an offensive mon, and vulerable to all kinds of passive damage. Yeah it has huge power and good coverage, no denying that, but would you really use CB Staraptor over any other CBer in OU? Or Scarf Staraptor over any other Scarfer? I have tried it, and i can honestly say that i would not.
Compare this to...
There's lots of Stealth Rock-weak Pokémon that are still successful in OU because there are work-arounds. Moreover, Staraptor is one of those Pokémon that overcomes adversity because of pure "Fuck You" power. Also, U-turn REALLY helps.
Lord of Bays Staraptor fits perfectly the description of D rank. He has a small niche (i can't even identify it, but i believe that someone can), but his horrible flaws prevent it from seeing any real use. It is not only horribly outclassed, it is also SR weak and takes huge recoil to use its best move. I have yet to see one team that uses Staraptor not just to use it, but because it does something for the team that no other Pokemon can...
I think Amoonguss could be a poster child for the B Rank definition- it's absolutely not the standard choice you will make when you need to counter a certain group, and it's rare that it will ever jump out at you as the mon to choose but it will have about as much consistency as anything in the meta. Never super good but always good.
I can back this up. I've tried using Staraptor recently, and its always been incredibly underwhelming, to the point where I just replaced it with Salamence and immediately started doing better. The Scarf set is an okay revenge killer, but it isn't easy to get in without sacking something, it can't keep up with faster sweepers, and its very, very easy to soak a Brave Bird with a resist. Choice Band sets are similar, although it is tougher to soak up attacks, many more things can outpace it and force it out. Every time I used this thing, it would come in, hit something, and then die to a random spam attack like Scald. I can agree that Staraptor is powerful, but then so is Darmanitan, who I'd argue has a larger niche than Staraptor does.
You know, since there's a good amount of talk about Amoonguss being B-Rank, what would people think about it's classic partner Slowbro being B-Rank? Feel free to dispute me, but I think that Slowbro is pretty viable in the current metagame as a solid physical wall, and a great shut down to a great deal of physical threats. It also has that amazing Regenerator, which gives it so much more longevity. On top of that, it's also a pretty good answer to Terrakion, and it's Fighting resist is pretty helpful in general. Of course, it also pairs up with Amoonguss perfectly, forming a solid Regenerator core that can give teams headaches.
Personally I think Slowbro has pretty good B-Rank potential. I just think it seems a little out of place amongst the other C-Rank pokemon. What do you guys think?
Why is heracross D-rank? It can become a great late game cleaner and has a massive attack, tieing with landorus and gyarados. 85 speed is pretty medicore, but choice scarf sets usually remidy this. Dual 120 base power STABs are going to do serious damage, even without an item boost. Night slash can beat most ghost types and stone deals with most flying types. Heracross should at the very least be C-rank.
Speaking of Heracross, its Choice Band set can serve as an incredible anti-metagame force, thanks to the popularity of Breloom and Deoxys-D. It can exploit Breloom's Spore to power up even further, and thanks to its incredible power, Heracross can actually boast the ability to OHKO Deoxys-D. Also, thanks to the popularity of Heracross' Choice Scarf set, the Choice Band set gets that much better, since certain walls and resists who would normally be more than glad to stomach an unboosted Close Combat / Megahorn will be sent reeling from a boosted attack (see: Skarmory, Forretress). Full support for Heracross for C-tier.
I think Heracross for C-Rank is pretty reasonable. The basic reason for something to be D-Rank is that it has absolutely crippling flaws that make them more trouble than their worth most of the time. Notice that pokemon in this rank tend to have crippling weakness, such as Moltres' Stealth Rock weakness, that really limit their use. Heracross really doesn't have such crippling weaknesses outside of maybe it's Flying weakness, but with Tornadus-T gone that's hardly an issue. It's very powerful overall and can be very threatening once in. And from personal experience, Guts/Moxie and Choice Band/Scarf form scary mind games. Do you want to try and paralyze it to stop a Moxie sweep? What if it has Guts? Heracross overall is actually a surprisingly scary pokemon to face, and other than it's (somewhat) low speed it doesn't have too many flaws. I don't see a reason for it to be D-Rank. It's a solid C-Rank, I think.
Nominating Gastrodon from B tier -> C tier
Honestly, Gastrodon is pretty underwhelming as a Pokémon in general. It became OU because it was a great counter to Thundurus, which it was, but after its ban, Gastrodon's utility dropped significantly. I mean, 111/68/82 defenses are certainly nothing special, and neither are 83/92/39 offenses. Honestly, if it weren't for its typing and ability, Gastrodon wouldn't even be considered in UU, let alone OU. There's always something else that can do Gastrodon's job better that it can. It's good for absorbing electric and water attacks, but so are Thundurus-T and Jellicent. Even Lanturn seems like a better choice for a cleric/special wall than Gastrodon. I honestly can't see why it should be B tier other than countering Thundurus-T (that don't have Grass Knot).
Gastrodon has only one weakness and forces certain water types to run hp grass. An immunity to water and electric allow it to counter certain electric and water types. If you pair it up with garchomp, all electric types bar the rare grass knot thundorus-t will be walled. Don't forget about how insanely powerful it CAN be as a STAB Storm drain, rain boosted choice specs boosted surf is definetly going to leave a dent. It isn't the best pokemon, but it is a low B-Rank pokemon.
I don't believe Slowbro should be upped for B rank. Why? It's simply not as good as its partner, amoonguss. Most of the reason to use it stems from forming a regenerator core with amoonguss--which is fantastic, but it is very hard for slowbro to stand on its own in my opinion. Sure, it's an answer to terrakion, but there are much better options to deal with this; gliscor, Landorus-T, even Jellicent. Amoonguss and Slowbro form an amazing core, but slowbro really is only usable within this core. It has competition from Skarmory and Hippowdon as a sturdy physical wall, both of which can better support the team through hazards and phazing, as well as sand in hippowdon's case. Where amoonguss can stand on its own and cripple multiple pokemon with the double powder strategy, slowbro faces much more competition as well as not putting to much pressure on the opponent. Amoonguss for B rank, Slowbro for C rank
True, but this is a metagame filled to the brim with Breloom, Ferrothorn, and Celebi, which all laugh in the face of Gastrodon. Not to mention that most strong physical attacks can really hurt it (CB Terrakion has a chance to OHKO before hazards, and Outrage from CB Kyurem-B, CB Haxorus, and Dragonite will always OHKO). It's not very good outside of weather teams, because otherwise it's dead weight against sun. I don't know, it seems like an ok Pokémon, but honestly it's only real niche seems to me to be countering Thundurus-T, Rotom-W, and Jolteon (all of which can run Grass coverage options to kill it anyway) seems pretty C tier to me.
I honestly don't know who can take a CB attack from those pokemon. You forgot that gastrodon has ice beam and earthquake for sun teams and it will do reasonable damage.
I don't really see why you focus so much on stats. Rotom-Fan is NU, Rotom-Wash is OU, and both have exactly the same stats.
I wouldn't say Gastrodon is amazing, but I really often had troubles against him with successful teams. At full health can counter many special threats, such as Latios, Hydreigon, Thundurus, Starmie, rain calm mind Jirachi or Rotom. His coverage is good, offences are not that bad for a wall, he can spread statuses (toxik and scald), recover...
The fact is that he annoys many weather teams, which are really common. Immune to SS, to many rain attacks (and rain teams are often based on the special side), and annoy many pokemon on sun team if they lack grass coverage. Yes, weakned stab is annoying, but many things in sun teams are weak to ice/ground coverage.
I'm not absolutely sure he deserves B-rank, but it remains a threat you have to be prepared to face.
Gastrodon really has lost its merit since BW1. It got kind've worse in this offensive metagame, similar to Quagsire. Gastrodon's natural bulk just isn't as bulky as it was in BW1 in my experiences. ThundyT (however fucking OP imo), is really not used by many people so there really isn't too much reason to use Gastrodon when it really can't take Hurricanes from TornI and it really hates dealing with Ferrothorn and SubToxic Tenta which are standard as hell. It can't even beat Keldeo which can possibly 2HKO with Secret Sword after hazards from DeoD or a single CM boost.
Gastrodon's supposed to beat rain but it struggles more than it used to back when Scizor and Rotom-W were common (since Gastro literally made HP Grass viable on Rotom-W at the time).
As for it being B/C tier, its really hard to decide. I'm leaning towards C.