Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Jolteon's actually pretty good on my Hail team, and he is one among many things I use to counter Politoed and others with.

Jolteon @ Lum Berry
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch


This set laughs at Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T, as well as making Politoed its bitch. Ground-type switchins tend to be transparent, so HP Ice is the preferred Hidden Power.

But yeah, I agree that Jolteon is fine in C Rank.
 

ganj4lF

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Calling Tornadus-T "mediocre" outside of Rain Dance is not really accurate. Tornadus-T is fairly self reliant even outside of rain; it still has that base 121 speed (which gets the jump on practically everything in OU) which let's it check to pretty much anything in BW OU. You can still work with 70% accurate Hurricane, U-turn & Superpower when appropriate, and hell... you can even run Rain-dance to bring back rain. It has Regenerator, and as we all know, is a ridiculously good ability. Venusaur is the polar opposite, base 80 speed pretty guarantees that most teams will naturally outspace it and it's STABs are easier to work around when it can't use a 2 hit combo. (ie: Switch a faster steel-type on Grass or Poison-type move and you don't have to worry about HP Fire, etc).
Well I guess that Venusaur could carry Sunny Day too, so that's kind of moot. I am still persuaded that Tornadus-T is not that good outside Rain, yeah clearly it retains Speed, but it's heavily luck based without 100% accurate Hurricane (think Virizion, that used to rely on STAB Focus Blast on its special sets, and that was heavily irritating) and if you don't want it fainting randomly to a miss you're forced into Superpower / U-Turn which is not that great. However, since almost noone supported Venusaur's nomination, I guess that's pointless to continue arguing anyway. Thank you for the detailed answers.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Also you cant possibly be argueing that Recover is better the Rest+Hydration if your opponemt brings in Tyranitar Hippowdon or Ninetales they a still have to worry about Hydro Pump and if Vappy is asleep who cares! You can just switch in Poltoed then go back to Vaporeon. The reason why Gastrodon is noy "on anothe level" is because Vaporeon has higher special attack much better recovery and suprise factor. He may not be able to fully handle volt turn but that is more of a team building issue then anything if you have a pokemon weak to volt turn than thats ok if your team is weak to volt turn thsn thats a different story. Infact Gastrodon cant even deal with Volturn because a choice banded Scizor and +1 Genesects U-turn will be doing heaps to Gastrodon and dont rven get me started on Counter counter makes Gastrodon move last making it have to sponge a powerful U-turn it might not even live anyway. Secondly who even uses Counter anyway? It is a waste of a move slot as you either miss out on recovery or coverage options so Counter Gastrodon is definatly out classed by Vaporeon it also seeems you are arguing with me for no reason almost like you are doing it just for fun remember this is ou viability rankings not vappy vs gastrodon. It is also worthy to note that i am nominating Vaporeon for C rank for petes sake! Not S not A not B, C! I have said all that i need to say and i dont want to mess up this project with irrelevant babble.
This babble is only continuing because you continue to spew nonsense. The fact that your saying Counter is a waste of a move slot on Gastrodon shows you no absolutely nothing about it. Genesect is a common lead, so if you lead with Gastrodon, and they U-turn, firstly, Gastrodon always lives Scizor's Banded u-turn and +1 U-turn from Genesect (unless he's banded, which Vap won't live either) so Counter always nabs a free, surprise kill with mentioned attack. Also, since both Vap and Gastro are usually tanks, they both retain the same surprise factor, so explain how Gastro is predictable and doesn't have surprise factor. It seems as if you're talking about what you don't know, and that's dangerous on Smogon. My point is that Gastrodon can play the same role as bulky attacking tank, with more or less the same power and bulk, but it can also fight Volt-Turn and Rain whereas Vap struggles more, making Gastro the superior choice in this light. Vap gets a niche as a hydration healer, but even if you get rain back up, Vap sleeps one additional turn before waking up, which means you can be 2HKO'ed (oh my God I used Vap too! Did you even try Gastro?) Which makes it's healing worse than Gastro's recover, since you can heal while Rotom-W switches and such. Vap is weaker to the common Metagame where Gastro isn't and that is where my point lies. try Gastro over Vap and see if you have any success or not. Seriously try it, the results may surprise you. Their power is more or less the same, but Gastro just does more than Vap. So their power IS the same, their surprise factor IS the same, and their healing is more or less the same since recover can be used on Rotom-W switch and although you heal more, you can also lose weather war and get screwed so each have their drawbacks, and finally their surprise factor is completely the same, making them on the same level in that light (which you denied and claimed Vap had over Gastro). So in those lights they are they are the same, but Gastro fights common rain and common Volt-Turn much better, meaning it has more to offer. Hence when I say Gastro plays this role better, it simply does. Oh and it also walls Gene better, since it can't TBolt on Gastro.

On the subject of the move counter, both Vappy and Gastro get crappy coverage. Gastro gets Surf / Ice Beam / Earth Power while Vappy gets Hydro / Ice Beam / Rest. Both have crappy coverage, so how can you say that Counter is a waste of a moveslot since you lose coverage WHEN THEY HAVE NO COVERAGE TO BEGIN WITH. Gastro also has Earth Power, so it has better coverage than Vappy (lol). The only drawback to counter (keep in mind banded Scizor and +1 Gene don't KO with U-turn) is that you lose recover. Recover is an okay option, but for the specs variant, it doesn't get around to recovering much anyway. The LO variant is too worn down by LO to really make use of slow recover anyway. Not that it isn't viable, but counter doesn't really make Gastrodon lose any coverage anyway.

tl;tr:

1. Gastro is equivalent to Vap in it's power, surprise factor, and both recoveries have draw backs (Gastro's limited recovery vs. Vap's sleep outside of rain, and then having to wait a turn to wake up when rain is put back on the field).

2. Gastro fights Volt-Turn and Rain, making it the Superior choice over Vap in the role of bulky attacker (since Wish passing outclasses Gastro in a sense for wall sets, but each wall has their own niche's and can't really be compared like the LO Tank sets can).

3. Counter is a useful move on Gastro and you do not lose out on any coverage, considering both Pokes have shitty coverage.

EDIT: @ Boondocker

What I meant was not the coverage between the moves, but their limited movepool (thus not losing out on a coverage move, HP Grass tends to be a bit redundant when +1 Surf does big damage to most rain threats (in rain) and Earth Power does lots to water types as well if +1, although it does help hit Gastro's / Jellicent's, EP can also hit for a 2hko anyway and counter tends to be more useful vs. volt-turn. Limited movepool makes it so they don't necessarily lose out on a coverage attack). I should have worded that better; my mistake.
 
Gastro gets Surf / Ice Beam / Earth Power while Vappy gets Hydro / Ice Beam / Rest. Both have crappy coverage, so how can you say that Counter is a waste of a moveslot since you lose coverage WHEN THEY HAVE NO COVERAGE TO BEGIN WITH.
Crazy talk. Last i checked (checks right now) Water+Ice hits every type in the game for at least neutral damage except for opposing water types. If that isnt good coverage then I don't know what is, especially when most water types cant even beat Vappy. Hp Grass is should be the coverage move of choice, and both water types do miss it if its not ran. Both Vappy and Gastrodon have room to run Counter, but to say they dont miss the coverage is a terrible statement.
 
Ok i said i wasnt going to talk back but there are still a few things i dont think i have clear. First off you are just assuming i have not tried life orb/specs Gastrodon which i have i can definatly attest to the sets effectiveness. Imo i like vaporeon more for the reasons i have mentioned. Doesnt matter what your points are about hydration+rest it is still a better recovery option than recover you absolutely can not argue that. I have alread made my point about volt turn so i will move on secondly i am aware that Gastrodon has suprise factor as a life orb attacker but with Vaporeons lower usage its a fact that Vaporeon will have a more suprising offensive set. You dont even know what your talking about if you only put down Hydro Pump/Ice Beam and no Hidden Power [Grass] as you mentioned it is deadly on smogon to talk about something you dont know. Also with Hidden Power [Grass] Vaporeon can actually beat gastrodon and as boondocker said it has good coverage. While Counter has its uses it is a waste of a moveslot because as you said it makes you miss out on Recovery if you are going to use a Life Orb attacker without recovery thats slow as hell ot is going to die quickly. If you dont miss out on recovery you miss out on coverage which Gastrodon really needs other wise Vaporeon definatly outclasses it. I know the vappy avatar may make me look biased lol but like most competitive players i have tried Gastrodon and i have tried Life Orb however you cant possibly of tried Life Orb vaporeon if you think its coverage is limited to hydro pump/ice beam putting you in an awkward position in this discussion if you are going to persist argueing for no reason please for everyones sake leave me a vm and if you dont all my replys will be by vm anyway.

Edit: I saw your vm and no you didnt offend me it is hard to pick up a persons tone from their writing but dont worry i am not offended and if i was its for a pretty stupid reason saying why i like one pokemon better than the other. I also thought you were talking about life orb gastrodon when mentioning Counter however on the specs set i agree with you it has its uses against Volt Turn although it is not to good to get locked into you dont need recover on thr specs set where counter fits niceley. I think you would agree with me that they are both suprising both effective and it just comes down to what you like more in a pokemon I like Vaporeons awesome recovery and power where as you might like Gastrpdons ability to do good against rain and volt turn.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Actually;vaporeon's offensive set is not surprising at all. I'd half expect it, honestly, especially considering its low usage;if you're not running offensive gastro and jellicent are far better.

How the hell is hydration+rest better than recover? I'm aware of all the benefits, but usually i just switch my weather starter in on rest and mess you up good. It's not necessarily "better"-if you lose the weather war, it's basically going to die.

HP grass is something gastrodon can run too, and beat other gastrodons with. So that's probably why he didn't mention it, although it is run so commonly.

As boondocker said, both have good coverage.

If you don't need recovery, getting essentially a free kill on a niche fourth mvoeslot is pretty cool. I wouldn't run it on LO, though.
 
How is infernape in the C tier below Lucario. It is faster and the 2 or 7 extra points to attack and SPa, respectivly, are super redundant. He should be in at least B.
 

SJCrew

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I want to say Infernape is B-tier too, having used him successfully on a lot of my Sun teams. However, he does have one major enemy in BW2: Rain. All of his counters are either common or very good in Rain, and a weakened secondary STAB takes away a lot of his utility. He has to rely on Sun to do damage, or rough it out with Sandstorm, which highlights his dependence on Life Orb. With his setup options being as poor as they are now, he's not really a sweeper anymore; he's more of a battering ram that relies heavily on prediction. Infernape is too easy to beat now.
 
How is infernape in the C tier below Lucario. It is faster and the 2 or 7 extra points to attack and SPa, respectivly, are super redundant. He should be in at least B.
Lucario has ES(and Bullet Punch) so it's almost always running Adamant, while Infernape has to run +Speed on all of it's sets. Very big difference between 350 and 307. Infernape doesn't have resistance to Stealth Rock, Immunity to Toxic(Spikes), and Sandstorm. Again, it doesn't have access to ES, so it's revenged killed by Tornadus, Starmie, Jolteon, Lati@s, Alakazam, and basically anything with Choice Scarf. Steel/Fighting also gives it a slew of resistances to help it set-up.
 
Lucario has ES(and Bullet Punch) so it's almost always running Adamant, while Infernape has to run +Speed on all of it's sets. Very big difference between 350 and 307. Infernape doesn't have resistance to Stealth Rock, Immunity to Toxic(Spikes), and Sandstorm. Again, it doesn't have access to ES, so it's revenged killed by Tornadus, Starmie, Jolteon, Lati@s, Alakazam, and basically anything with Choice Scarf. Steel/Fighting also gives it a slew of resistances to help it set-up.
Infernape, however, is much more destructive right off the bat. Fighting / Fire are amazing STABs to have, which means that only a handful of bulky waters can switch into him.

His coverage is nothing short of amazing either - Stone Edge, U-turn, Grass Knot, Thunderpunch, Earthquake, Acrobatics and of course Hidden Power.

104/104/108 offenses and access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot allow it to run a good amount of sets successfully. Scarf, Band, Mixed, SD, NP, EB lure and even Specs if you're feeling daring. That speed and access to priority in the form of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave ensures that Infernape won't be easily revenge killed. And if the opponent has something that can revenge it, it means Infernape has killed something, so it got the job done.

Infernape can be tailored to fit your needs, and the mixed version in particular is a mon that can dismantle most defensive cores on its own - SkarmBliss falls to CC and Overheat/Fire blast, while FerroCruel shares a similar fate if Infernape packs either ThunderPunch or Earthquake. 'Nape is a mon that lacks a "true counter", since most of its checks can be dealt with with the appropiate coverage move. Jellicent? Grass Knot. Tentacruel? EQ / Thunderpunch. Gyarados? ThunderPunch / SE. Dragons? HP Ice. Psychic-types? U-turn.

I feel 'Nape works similarly to Mamoswine - great damage, difficult to switch into, but sort of easy to revenge. And everyone seems to be voting for Mamo to be on either the A or B tier. For all these reasons, I put my support behind Infernape being placed in the B tier.
 
Lets be honest here, we don't live in an imaginary world where Infernape can carry ever move it needs to sweep, it only has 4 slots.

Realistically if you want to do anything of stone, you are probably going to run a move set of close combat / overheat or fire blast / u-turn. You have one slot of your choosing to mess with, no matter what move you choose you are going to be walled by something hard.

Between sand, lake of power sweeping power, entry hazards, and faster pokemon, your not going to pull of a sweep. Even something like Politoed can take a hit and 1HKO Internape in return. Infernape is a great wall breaker and maybe end game sweeper, don't try to make it more.
 
On Infernape being C-tier:

Infernape's problem are 2fold.

1. There's no real reason to use Infernape in BW2 OU. Sun team positions are EXTREMELY competitive!! It's good on sun teams, but you usually want to run something better. I mean 4 of your slots are already taken up by Genesect / Dugtrio / Ninetales / Chlorophyll sweeper (Venusaur), and its got stiff competition. It's decent on sand teams, but ultimately out of place and there are usually better choices. Nothing needs to be said about Infernape on Rain teams.

2. It suffers heavily against the current metagame. The ubiquity of rain + a bunch of naturally faster Pokemon kind of hurt it (Tornadus, Latis etc). When I use Infernape, I resign myself to the fact that its fire moves were basically useless. It's Close Combats are really strong though, but at that point you're kind of better of using Terrakion if you want to spam Close Combat. I could see it moving up with Rain were a little less common but as it stands... eh.

I might drop Lucario to C, but i'm kind of hesitant of doing that since if Swords Dance Lucario successfully sets up mid-to-lategame (which isn't too hard due to its awesome typing) you're going to get wrecked. Iunno, pro / anti Lucario convince me!

On Jolteon being B-tier: Holy shit. This the first time in like... ever that I totally advocate using Jolteon. Specs Jolteon on Rain teams is frighteningly powerful. In a metagame where concrete special walls are scarce, and players have to make due with either pseudo special tanks like Rotom-W or Tyranitar, Jolteon shines like crazy. (For some reason i've noticed a drop in Gastrodon). Seriously Specs Thunder alone hits like a a goddamn nuke. There's also the fact that its lightning fast, and it gets the jump on Tornadus-T and the rest of the OU metagame. It's really good.
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
keep ape in C

ape is a LOT worse than mamoswine. stabs are pitifully easy to wall, ape's coverage is not especially strong against most of its standard counters (as a stall player, i just chuckle and bring in latias, eat like a third from hp ice and start boosting. if latias is dead i can chill with tentacruel and start scalding it, it gets like 2hkoed lol), and moreover ape has no particularly advantageous metagame niche. sun has better fire nukes and weatherless has better wallbreakers. as i'm sure most of you know from my other posts, i play stall as a main, and ape has never broken any of my walls. never ever. at best it kind of squirms around uturning, and in terms of being an effective user of uturn, there are definitely better choices (COUGH GENESECT COUGH). ape does not force as many switches in practice as it does on paper.

the comparison to mamoswine is rather inappropriate when mamoswine has freaking ice shard, which is incredibly useful in this metagame on any team. ape's only prio options are mach punch and vacuum wave, which many sets don't even have room to carry (SO MUCH 4MSS, ape is like the poster boy of 4mss). ground/ice is also a very good stab with solid coverage, where as fire/fighting most certainly is not.

ape has so much competition in every regard and it's in an awkward position smack in between a lot of other pokemon. among base 108s, keldeo is far superior in rain (no duh >_>) and terrakion is generally a better swords dancer than ape because of its better natural bulk and stabs (the priority weakness is a flaw though). among fire nukes, there are those with an easier time boosting (volc) and those with better bulk (victini) and those with more power (darmanitan). among sun sweepers, ape's lack of chlorophyll gives it a serious disadvantage against venusaur. it can accomplish some of these roles at a given time, but not all of them, and it can't do any one of them as well as another mon.

i recall someone saying a while ago that the problem with ape is that teams tend to prepare for it as an aside to preparing for something else, and i think that really captures its position in this metagame well. when your team is already ready to handle terrakion and sun boosted fire attacks and volt-turn, you're kinda already in a good position to deal with ape. it's not an outstanding enough offensive threat to demand direct preparation, because it's just not that good
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
outspeeding neutral speed Venusaur in sun
this is true, but the number of timid venusaur that seek to outrun scarfrak/latios has gone WAY up in this metagame. this would be much more worth noting in bw1 imo. lemme check stats and get back to you

EDIT:
well for some reason people are still using modest venusaur >_> i guess it's a pretty fair point. i imagine the number of timids was even lower before bw2, but i'm too lazy to go fish stats for that
Code:
| Modest 48.456%                         |
| Timid 15.915%                          |
 
Nominating Kyurem for B Rank

Ctrl + F --> Kyurem --> 0 Matches

What! Kyurem is an absolute baller in the current metagame. Although its typing is pretty bad because of the weaknesses to the omnipresent Fighting, Dragon, and Rock-type attacks, Kyurem nice coverage, bulk, and new-found access to Roost make it a major contender in the current Metagame. For starters, with Toxic Spikes on the field Kyurem can outstall many of its common "checks", mainly bulky waters and the Pink Blobs, making it a scary Poke. With Toxic Spikes down its biggest thorn is Specially Defensive Jirachi who is 2HKO'd with prior damage with a timely Earth Power. Kyurem functions well in many teams as an excellent way to check the omnipresent VoltTurn core of Rotom-W and Genesect, as only band Genesect can have a chance of killing this beast. One last thing Kyurem has going for it is Pressure. Pressure allows Kyurem to outstall many things that can break its Sub, so it can PP stall it and nab a free Sub on the switch. One of the biggest examples is Choice Terrakion's Close Combat and Stone Edge, both of which are drained of PP after 4 Substitutes. Another is Rotom-W Hydro Pump, as it only has 4 PP as well. This giving Kyurem lots of opportunities to have a free Sub, usually ending in a severely weakened or killed Pokemon. Overall, Kyurem is a scary Pokemon, but I feel as though its typing lets it down, making it function well in the B-tier.

 
Nominating Kyurem for B Rank

Ctrl + F --> Kyurem --> 0 Matches

What! Kyurem is an absolute baller in the current metagame. Although its typing is pretty bad because of the weaknesses to the omnipresent Fighting, Dragon, and Rock-type attacks, Kyurem nice coverage, bulk, and new-found access to Roost make it a major contender in the current Metagame. For starters, with Toxic Spikes on the field Kyurem can outstall many of its common "checks", mainly bulky waters and the Pink Blobs, making it a scary Poke. With Toxic Spikes down its biggest thorn is Specially Defensive Jirachi who is 2HKO'd with prior damage with a timely Earth Power. Kyurem functions well in many teams as an excellent way to check the omnipresent VoltTurn core of Rotom-W and Genesect, as only band Genesect can have a chance of killing this beast. One last thing Kyurem has going for it is Pressure. Pressure allows Kyurem to outstall many things that can break its Sub, so it can PP stall it and nab a free Sub on the switch. One of the biggest examples is Choice Terrakion's Close Combat and Stone Edge, both of which are drained of PP after 4 Substitutes. Another is Rotom-W Hydro Pump, as it only has 4 PP as well. This giving Kyurem lots of opportunities to have a free Sub, usually ending in a severely weakened or killed Pokemon. Overall, Kyurem is a scary Pokemon, but I feel as though its typing lets it down, making it function well in the B-tier.

Wait till kyurem-b gets un/banned before nominating kyurem
 

GatoDelFuego

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@bri: Technically no, but it's a genesect/scizor deal: you aren't going to use both on your team, so the usage of cube will impact kyurem in some way.
 
@bri: Technically no, but it's a genesect/scizor deal: you aren't going to use both on your team, so the usage of cube will impact kyurem in some way.
I don't see why you can't use Genesect and Scizor on the same team.. ? I have before successfully. That's besides the point however, obviously Species Clause prohibits the Kyurem's, but usage =/= viability. Kyurem-B and Kyurem are way different (abilities.. Atk & SpA) so I don't see why I can't nominate Kyurem.
 

dragonuser

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Seconding bri, how does Kyurem-B existing mean that he can't nominate normal Kyurem. Normal Kyurem serves a very different role than Kyu-B, and I don't see Kyurem's niche really being affected so much that he should wait on the nomination.
 
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