1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Info Hub for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lork

    Lork

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    236
    so what is the consensus for conkeldurr and his most effective set? there was some discussion a few pages back but it got lost.
  2. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    I wouldnt say dragonite is a b-tier pokemon. Kyurem and dragonite are two different pokemon in the first place, kyurem is weak to mach punch and bullet punch for example, and has a different typing. Not to mention it doesnt have dragon dance and its phisical movepool sucks. To be honest i dont even understand your comparison with special dragons like latios and dragonite, they are just diffrent.
    As for haxorus, garchomp and salamence, you are wrong. Haxorus is bad, it is outclassed by dragonite because it doesnt have multiscale to get a free dragon dance, it doesnt have extremespeed to kill scarfers, it has a bad typing in comparison with dragonite and less bulk. The same can be said for dragon dance salamence by the way, 100 base speed is still not enough to outspeed keldeo and terrakion, so the speed doesnt really matter. Salamence has less bulk and less chance to setup a dragon dance, thats why its utility is p much being a better scarfer than others dragon. Garchomp maybe has the bulk but it doesnt have extremespeed and dragon dance, honestly i would only use it with stealth rock, all the other sets are pretty much outclassed by other things.

    Why would i use cb dragonite in the first place? to send it out in the first turn to force my opponent to sac something to break its multiscale, then use it later to revenge kill stuff with extreme speed if needed (cb nite pretty much has the same bp of bullet punch scizor)
  3. Tressed

    Tressed

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,047
    Yeah, I dunno why anyone tries to use Donphan as a revenge killer. Its too weak to try going uninvested against them, its a much better idea to just use it as a Rapid Spinner and leave it at that.
    The great moves that you list really aren't that great for it. Close Combat is a really bad move for a defensive pokemon, and Hitmontop isn't hitting hard with it off an uninvested attack stat. The other moves have their uses, but then Hitmontop runs into the same problem that Donphan does; it needs those moveslots for other things, one for Rapid Spin, one for Foresight, one for Close Combat (or whatever STAB you want to use), and the last one can go to Toxic, Rest, Stone Edge, or any of the moves you listed. What's more, Hitmontop basically needs Toxic in order to stand any chance against Jellicent, as otherwise Jellicent will be able to sit in front of it and whittle it down with Scald while healing with Recover. The things you listed are good on the Technitop set, which is almost never used due to overlaps with other Pokemon (Breloom).
    I dunno, every time I've tried to use Hitmontop, I end up wishing I was using something else. It seems like more trouble than its worth most of the time.
  4. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Conkeldurr is def. better than it was a little while ago because Torn-T isn't freaking everywhere. He's too slow to bulk up, so that set is out. However his SubPunch and status orb sets can deal tremendous amounts of damage, and sponging Conkeldurr's hits isn't precisely easy.

    I'd say he's right where he should be, but I could see him in low B-rank.
  5. FreeFormJazz

    FreeFormJazz

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Jirachi is one of the best and most versatile pokemon in the meta. It fills so many roles, it functions amazingly as a wall/tank, being able to sponge even powerful draco meteors. It can support the team amazingly, by setting up Stealth Rocks, spreading paralyses, and giving wishes and lunar dances. It works as an amazing choice scarfer, with its amazing set of coverage moves, revenge killing a large portion of the metagame, and being able to flinch things to death. Serene Grace is also one of the best abilities in the game. It works brilliantly as a set up sweeper because of its decent speed, fantastic natural bulk, great typing and a movepool that couldn't be better allowing it to hit potentially every mon for SE damage.

    Jirachi for S rank.
  6. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,536
    Holy shit yes I meant Jolly. I do not know where that came from. Yikes.

    But one of the points I was trying to make is that Gyarados' base speed holds him back too much to sweep effectively. Bounce is not a good STAB move to rely on, but using Stone Edge opens you up to Ferrorthorn and Return to Jellicent. B-rank is where he should stay.
  7. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    412
    Dragonite for B-Rank!? I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

    I strongly disagree with this. Dragonite is one of the most terrifying pokemon to face in the metagame, and for good reason. Multiscale makes it incredibly difficult to OHKO and virtually guarantees a turn of set up. This is critical to it's success, because once it gets a boost it's difficult to stop it's rampage due to that invincibility facto it has with Multiscale.

    Now about the more specific arguments... lets see here...

    Weather: All four weathers are bad for Dragonite? Funny, I seem to recall Dragonite being an excellent choice for Rain teams for it's unique ability to spam Thunder and Hurricane at the same time.Even with a standard DD set Fire Punch will hurt Ferrothorn at +1. How is Sun bad for Dragonite? Last I checked it often ran Fire Punch, which gets boosted by Sun. Plus it resists Fire and Grass, probably the defining offensive types for Sun. Sand and Hail can neuter Multiscale (assuming it doesn't have Leftovers), but they don't really affect it much other than that. Honestly, I thought that being a bulky dragon made you GOOD against weather, not weak to it. Heck, Garchomp is pretty vulnerable to Rain teams due to his Ground type, but he's being advocated for S-Rank.

    Stealth Rocks: Oh, guess we should probably bring Salamence and Kyurem-B down too. This hurts Dragonite, but the same can be said for a lot of pokemon.

    Outclassed by other Dragons: Nah, not really. It's one of the best Dragon Dancers thanks to Multiscale and it's fantastic movepool. (It has priority. Seriously, not many dragons have that.) Really the only special sets used are the Rain sets, which have the unique niche of having Thunder and STAB Hurricane on the same pokemon. Also people, if you want to really exploit Dragonite's potential with Multiscale, give the SubDD set a try. It laughs at Ferrothorn and other common walls and abuses Multiscale to the fullest. Seriously, that set alone has a ton of destructive potential in a way that can't be replicated by any other pokemon.

    Bottom line, keep Dragonite in A-Rank.
  8. Smilodon

    Smilodon

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    75
    I don't use Hitmontop really often, but sometimes it's just the spinner that really fit a team.
    I've used both sets : Technician (Fake out, Mach Punch, Sucker punch and Rapid Spin) and Intimidate (Close Combat, Sucker Punch, Stone Edge and Rapid Spin). And they do their job quite well.
    Despite the bad attack stat, I used it as an offensive spinner, adamant max Attack (and HP) with Life Orb or Leftovers. He has good coverage, and can force a surprising amount of switches. And many people don't give him any credit, so they attack with their Starmie or weakened Latios and die to sucker punch.

    Intimidate set is good in a balanced team, where the rock, bug and dark resist are appreciated. Technician has been a precious ally in a distortion team, where a revenge killer with good priorities is really appreciated.

    The only real drawback is that he struggles to kill ghost (he can run toxik to annoy most of them thought, instead of stone edge), so use it if a spinner is useful but not mandatory on your team.
  9. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    733
    Yeah I agree with this. I only like using Bounce if he has Substitute. Stay at B-Rank.

    81 just seems like a really weird base speed...gotta make him 1 point faster than Dragonite I suppose?
  10. Gary2346

    Gary2346 FU Tier Leader
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,639
    Wow Dragonite for B-Rank? Quite a surprise.

    Honestly, I'm stuck in the middle on this one. Dragonite is an extremely dangerous Pokemon, and I've been destroyed by the DD set many of times, and also swept by CB Dragonite's Extremespeed before. I think one of the biggest things going for Dragonite is it's amazing move pool and one of the few bulky sweepers in the tier. With Multiscale intact, Dragonite is pretty much guaranteed a free +1. Problem is, he's easily revenged killed by common Scarfers such as Terrakion, Landorus, and Salamence, and keeping up Multiscale for most of the battle can be quite a pain too, especially with Sand and Stealth Rocks being so common. This pretty much forces Dragonite to run Leftovers on its All out attacking and sweeping sets if he wants to abuse his ability. Although his bulk is really good for a Dragon type, his speed is quite lackluster, and it forces Dragonite to run DD or Extremespeed if it wants to have a chance at out speeding anything. Although most Dragons such as Salamence appreciate Rapid Spin support, Dragonite pretty much HAS to have a spinner if it wants to be very successful. Running no spinner on a team forces Dragonite to run Roost, which can really hinder an offensive sweeping set, and doesn't fit well on the CB set either. Still, Haxorus and Kyurem-B run a more successful CB set since they have arguably better speed with Higher attack, Haxorus being neutral to SR and common priority, while Kyurem-B has really huge bulk that can even withstand a Bullet Punch from CB Scizor. Dragonite has nice bulk too, however without Multiscale intact it really depends a little too much on its bulk to take a hit, which can really hurt it in the long run.

    Overall, Dragonite has a lot of potential and can pretty much decimate teams with little effort, however it requires proper team support, Rapid Spin support, possible T-Wave support, Extremespeed, a free switch opportunity if not running roost, and it's lack luster speed really pushes it out of the A-Tier. Similar to Volcarona, it can 6-0 teams with ease, however it requires a lot of support to be able to pull off a really successful sweep, and it's lackluster speed prevents it from sweeping successfully even at +1. Even Volcarona can out speed more at +1 then Dragonite.

    Don't give me hate, but now that I think about it I agree that Dragonite could possibly be B-Tier. However, it should be considered VERY high B-Tier, like Hydreigon, Skarmory, and Volcarona.
  11. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    Dragonite is an amazing pokemon and should be no lower than A-Rank. Dragonite may not have the greatest speed, but like breloom and scizor, it has a powerful priority in extremespeed. CB dragonite is one of the best revenge killers, and has a powerful STAB outrage. Even though multiscale can be easily broken, offensive dragonite don't need it for very long to be successful and bulky dragonite can heal up with roost. Dragonite also has a lot of versatality, meaning that you can never know what its running until it is too late. Dragonite can also functon well in rain and sun. Rain allows dragonite to use its powerful STAB hurricanes and a useful Thunder while sun gives it psuedo STAB on fire blast. Dragonite is one of OU's biggest threats and deserves A-Rank.
  12. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    68
    Why is Keldeo S rank? There are quite a couple of common pokemon that Keldeo can't do much to them. Celebi, Starmie, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Lati@s, Toxicroak off the top of my head. The same can't really be said about Terrakion. I think he's an A rank Pokemon at best.
  13. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego SIMIC¥ の のK
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,582
    Most of the pokemon you just mentioned can be 2HKOed by keldeo with the appropriate move--the same with terrakion. It's not only their raw power that puts them up there, but the ability to sweep with little effort through anything that isn't a very solid check. They both boast some really, really good coverage, especially neutral coverage, which helps them get a lot of power on most of the metagame.
  14. Gary2346

    Gary2346 FU Tier Leader
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,639
    Eh, comparing Salamence and Dragonite is kind of hard to do, because both function in completely different ways. Salamence is a revenge killer and a late game sweeper, and unlike Dragonite he really doesn't suffer from fourth move slot syndrome, since it can run all the moves it needs to succeed such as Fire Blast for Steel types, Earthquake for Heatran and Tyranitar, and Outrage for extreme power. Moxie is also another reason why Salamence is so fierce, because after a few boosts pretty much nothing can stop it. Also, Salamence is indeed threatened by the same common Choice Scarfers, however one there gone pretty much nothing can stop him. Also, unlike Dragonite, I feel that Salamence is much more of an independent sweeper then Dragonite. Other then Terrakion and Mamoswine being a pain in the ass, Salamence is already decently fast, and pretty much out speeds a majority of the meta game after +1. Also, it packs moves for pretty much every situation, and has the ability to raise its attack without a turn of set up. Even without a boost, he still poses a threat since 100 speed is nothing to scoff at, while Dragonite is slower then Timid Heatran if it's running an Adamant nature, which is quite pathetic. I've actually revenge killed Dragonite with HP Ice Heatran before, but I'd never dream of revenge killing Salamence without an Air Balloon.

    Again, keeping Multiscale intact is quite a challenge. Without ANY Rapid Spin support, Dragonite is already at a disadvantage. Combined that with Sandstorm, and DD Dragonite is pretty much forced to run Leftovers in order to survive. Salamence doesn't mind Stealth Rocks nearly as much as Dragonite because it's most commonly running a Scarf set anyway, which out speeds pretty much everything that's non scarfed. Dragonite can't properly set up on Choice Scarf Terrakion because Choice Scarf Terrakion out speeds Adamant Dragonite even at +2! Sure it can kill it at +1 if it predicts the switch, but again it's still wide open for Steel types if it decides to lock itself into Outrage, and if it's Multiscale isn't intact, then Terrakion can still win.

    True, but I listed several reasons, and most A-Rank Pokemon don't need more then one or two support moves or teammates to help it succeed at what it does. Dragonite needs several, and requires proper prediction, a majority of Choice Scarfers dealt with, at least +2 boosts, fourth move slot syndrome with sweeping sets, Multiscale intact, spinner, Thunder Wave support, speed makes it become out sped by most of the tier, and Extremespeed is almost a necessity on pretty much every set.

    Still, it's versatility is nearly unmatched, which makes it really hard to simply scout out its set without taking a lot of damage in the process. It's still a really good Pokemon and I'm definitely not denying that. It's flaws are outweighed by its pros. It still requires a lot of team support unlike most A-Rank Pokemon to fully abuse its potential, however sets such as CB and bulky Life Orb don't require that match support to be effective. It's hard telling what tier it best fits in.
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Do I need another PHD to unbutton this stupid sweater?
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,172
    Before I implement any changes I want to cover a few hot button issues. I wanted to make a point to avoid making "impulse tier placements" because I really want to keep the integrity of each tier (especially S-tier).

    Garchomp: I strongly disagree with moving it to S-tier. It's an amazing Pokemon, but I feel the need to draw the line in regards to placing it(and any other GREAT A-tier Pokemon) in S-tier. It's "good-but-not-great" speed and average power keep are some of the biggest reasons against placing it S-tier, imo. It lacks the brute strength of Keldeo and Landorus and their ability to boost their speed and utterly sweep (Choice Scarf Garchomp is hardly comparable to the likes of Scarf Keldeo or RP Landorus). I know a lot of good players dislike this decision but it's something I refuse to budge on, Garchomp simply isn't S-tier. If it is, we should strongly consider adding several other "high tier" attackers like Lati@s or Kyurem-B into S-tier.

    Dragonite: There's pretty much a 0% chance of Dragonite dropping to B-tier. It has some flaws, but Multiscale will always make Dragonite relevant. The fact that it makes decent offensive to some of the most threatening Pokemon in the game is just gravy.

    Gyarados: Gyarados is on the cusp of A-tier (B+ if it existed!) but I don't think it's good enough to hang with the A-tiers at this point in time. It might change, but I haven't seen any unique arguments that could change my outlook on it atm. It's good, leaning towards great, but not enough to be A-tier.

    Skarmory: I'm going to go ahead and move Skarmory up to A-Tier, basically because the compelling arguments made by users like Lavos and Meru, (aka players that regularly use Skarmory) seemed to outweigh those of the opposition. If Ferrothorn is A-Rank, there's no reason to deny Skarmory a similar placement since its arguably just as good as a support pkmn / even better. Access to reliable instant recovery and phazing make it even more of a team player than Ferro imo, and the ability to reliable check threats like Terrakion, Garchomp, and Landorus-T, among others, make me feel that A-Tier is the right place for Skarmory at this point in the metagame. There's also that cutsap set that's surfacing, and its really good.

    Donphan: I'm strongly considering dropping Donphan to D-tier. Donphan is bad, very, very bad. We're conditioned to think its good because its a staple on sun teams, but nobody "good" has used Donphan on a sun team for ages. I'm not even being spiteful because I think it should be UU, I honestly think its a bad crutch for players. Just to clear, this isn't a *guaranteed* change, but I want to see some arguments that support Donphan in OU.

    In summary:
    Garchomp stays in A-tier
    Dragonite stays in A-tier
    Gyarados stays in B-tier
    Skarmory up from B-tier ===> A-tier
    Donphan down from C-tier ===> D-tier (Possibility)
    Durant added to C-tier (about time)
    Crustle added to C-tier (about time)
    Crobat added to C-tier
  16. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    412
    I'm going to try and address these points as best I can.

    Requires proper prediction: I wouldn't really say Dragonite requires anymore prediction than any other pokemon. If Multiscale is intact, usually there's hardly a need to predict since Dragonite virtually can't be OHKO'd.

    Majority of Choice Scarfers need to be dealt with: Well, that is true, but the most common choice scarfers are usually things like Keldeo, Terrakion and Latios, which outspeed most of the OU tier anyway and are a threat to most sweepers. There are some slower Choice Scarfers that can outspeed Dragonite that don't other sweepers, such as Heatran or Landorus-T, but these are much less common and as noteworthy as threats. Plus, Dragonite has Extreemspeed.

    At least +2 Boosts: Um, if it gets to that point it's really going to be tough to stop a sweep unless you have a solid counter like Skarmory or Mamoswine (assuming Multiscale is broken).

    Four Moveslot Syndrome: I suppose, in a way. Then again, Dragon Claw/Outrage and Fire Punch has fantastic coverage bar Heatran, but it can run Earthquake to handle it. Even if it chooses Extreemspeed over it, removing Heatran isn't too much to ask of it's teammates.


    Multiscale intact/Spinner: I'm grouping these together because I think their basically the same point. This is probably the best argument against Dragonite, since admittedly offensive DD sets appreciate the free turn of set up that Multiscale provides. Without Multiscale, the set loses a free set up opportunity. Luckily you can always use Starmie as a great partner to Dragonite, but I do agree that Rapid Spin is of great help to Dragonite and needing that is detrimental.

    Thunder Wave Support: What? I don't think a DD sweeper needs Thunder Wave support that much. I mean, it's great for shutting down Revenge Killers, but that's just one really helpful possibility and is in no way a requirement.

    So I will admit that the standard DD set does appreciate Rapid Spin support in order to keep Multiscale intact. HOWEVER, I don't think this is enough to keep it from A-Rank. Having debunked Gary's main points, I think that Dragonite does not require that much support, and is fully deserving of A-Rank.

    Oh, and everything above is referring ONLY to the standard DD set. Don't forget that Dragonite has possibly the most versatility of all the dragons and has numerous other effective sets it can run.

    Edit: Dang it, PK Gaming beat me to the post...
  17. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego SIMIC¥ の のK
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,582
    I agree with every decision, especially donphan. Donphan just does not deserve usage. It's a "sun team staple", but hitmontop does everything it does with a guaranteed spin and better set of resistances. All hitmontop does that donphan doesn't is set up stealth rocks, but trying to spin and do SR and defend and use priority does not work at all. And if you're using donphan for its ice shard, you're doing it wrong.

    EDIT yeah get hitmontop up in this tier. It's honestly not bad at spinning. I can't speak on rotom because I've not really used it.
  18. Magcargo

    Magcargo
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    You forgot to add rotom-h and hitmontop to C-rank. Most people agreed that Rotom-h should be added to C-rank while few people disagreed about adding hitmontop to it as well.
  19. Sam

    Sam get down here right meow
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    707
    Hitmontop absolutely cannot get past Jellicent or Gengar at all though and for the most part needs Close Combat to deal any damage, which is really really bad for a defensive mon. Donphan at least had Ice Shard to give it a decent role offensively, while Hitmontop is horribly outclassed in every offensive role (except technitop but that's not even viable). I'd say Donphan has a decent niche in being able to resist SR and spin, as well as having a useful, although un-STABed, priority. Keep Donphan (low) C while I don't even think 'top deserves a rank, so I guess D.
  20. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego SIMIC¥ の のK
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,582
    I really am not saying hitmontop is some kind of god but it has EXACTLY THESE SAME QUALITIES. It also gets foresight which can get past those ghosts. Donphan on the other hand is weak to water and ice, which makes for a pretty bad defensive typing with a horrid case of not being able to decide to do. There are far better defensive users of rapid spin, and the prescence of Ice Shard does not make donphan really that better at all. Unless you have some kind of deathly fear of electric attacks, forretress will be better than donphan, and it gets the plus of volt switch. Sun teams can always use hitmontop with a guaranteed spin, sr resist, intimidate, and same priority if they don't want a defensive spinner. Dohphan really has garbage offenses, earthquake does not give it a good enough presence. And don't talk about putting more than earthquake on there, because its other moves will always be SR, rapid spin, and ice shard.

    It's just not good.
  21. G-Von

    G-Von

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    702
    Durant :']

    Anyway, now that one of my favorite pokemon from the most recent generation just got added, I am willing to nominate Sigilyph for D-rank. I wish it could be higher but I doubt anyone would take that proposal serious.

    Sigilyph has the tiny niche of being able to pass its own burn status around without being damaged at all by any passive or entry hazard damage. It's OU analysis listed only this set for it, but it can also run a Magic Guard+Life Orb set. Aside from Magic Guard, Sigilyph has access to Tinted Lens, who is also the fastest wielder of the ability,

    However, some things that hamper Sigi is its typing, which give it a whopping 5 weaknesses. Its base 103 Special attack is nothing to really worry about either since there are many other threats who's attack/sp attack are much much higher. Base 97 speed leaves it speed tying with Haxorus, who is notoriously known for being a little on the slow side to keep up with major threats.

    However, please do not let these faults completely write off Sigi as unviable as it does have some sort of niche to be used.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn don't break the oath
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,359
    i'm very pleased with the changes pkgaming made to the op - in fact, i don't believe he could have done a better job evaluating the arguments and then making his decisions. that said, i'm going to be nominating lucario for a-rank, as it's a comparable pokemon to breloom or scizor, both pokemon which currently reside in a-rank, plus its sheer power and versatility is unrivaled by any priority-packing physical sweeper. close combat with a life orb boost hits like an absolute truck, even ohkoing skarmory at +2 most of the time, and all of the time after rocks. lucario's speed is just enough to let it outrun max speed jolly heatran as an adamant lucario, and though many pokemon such as gliscor and landorus-t try to speed creep it by running 280 speed or a little more, lucario can just as easily run a jolly nature to outpace these potential checks. lucario's depth of movepool is awesome, too. i already mentioned cc, but luke also has attacks such as ice punch, crunch, extremespeed, and bullet punch at its disposal. in particular, note the access to not one, but two priority moves, both of which are critical to lucario's success as a sweeper. espeed prevents other priority users from wearing luke down or even picking it off from low health, and bullet punch provides great coverage against stuff like terrakion that would otherwise be impossible for lucario to surpass. not to mention, lucario also gets both major boosting moves, swords dance and agility, allowing it both diversity and threatening potential as either a hard-hitting priority abuser or swift-striking speed sweeper. lucario's ability, justified, is the icing on the cake, allowing it to make use of its 4x dark resistance by taking whatever dark-type attack is thrown at it and using it to raise its attack one stage. get a justified boost plus a swords dance, and you can basically say gg right then and there. all in all, lucario's a powerful metagame threat that every single competent teambuilder knows to prepare for. it deserves a-rank more than anything else i can think of right now!

    also supporting crustle for b-rank :toast:
  23. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    68
    Can't Ferrothorn do the same thing just a bit later in the match though? Not to mention it's Grass/Steel typing lets it wall a lot in the metagame and is just more useful overall. Also Forretress does this better as a lead. It can spin and also has Toxic Spikes and Gyro ball for Taunt Terrakion leads. As well as Explosion (nerfed) but with Normal gem can possibly get you a kill. There's no doubt that Crustle can do his job it's just that it suffers from being outclassed. I'd say he's fine in C-rank.

    I saw the Smeargle hasn't been listed on here so I would like nominate it for A-rank. Fastest user of Spore and has access to every move in the game making it very versatile. Taunt? You gotta hope it's not carrying Magic Coat or you're pretty much screwed. Smeargle can do almost anything you want it to do. Since Deoxys is gone it can also set up hazards but with the unique ability of also being able to put something to sleep. 5th gen brought us Shell Smash a broken move but with it Smeargle only needs 1 turn to set up and then he can just baton pass away to a sweeper. Thoughts?
  24. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego SIMIC¥ の のK
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,582
    Sheesh, smeargle for A-rank? That's just not happening. It's shut down by so many things, and it doesn't always have room for magic coat. As a hazard lead it just doesn't have the defenses of deoxys and needs a focus sash all the time. In fact, as anything it needs a focus sash all the time. It's not exactly fast, and with a ton of offensive things that can take it out in one shot it doesn't really stick around. It can do a lot of things, but it can't really do anything that well.

    I'd say smeargle is C-rank at best, it's just not really that good of something to use.
  25. Zentrius

    Zentrius

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    100
    YES PLEASE.

    Lucario is an absolute killing machine if it manages to get a SD boost. The ability to 2HKO the entier tier with the proper move is stellar, no matter how you look at it. I mean that shit OHKOs Skarmory after Stealth Rock. It's counters are defined by it's coverage moves. With Ice Punch, Jellicent walls it and Reuniclus wall it (However, Reuniclus takes HUGE damage from CC), and with Crunch, Gliscor and Landorus-T wall it. Lucario wrecks Stall teams if it manage to get a boost unless your opponent has a Quagsire (who even then is 2HKO'd by an unboosted Close Combat, and the power to KO faster threats after SR/Spikes is incredible.

    Lucario for A-Rank plz.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)