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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    Ok that's more than enough bickering about Amoonguss. Tsk tsk children, I expect better of you.

    Anyway, Tyranitar certainly does quite a lot, and I can see why people are arguing it for S-rank. Sand Stream is a very potent ability, not only having a host of benefits that make it useful on its own, but also helping check opposing weather. Tyranitar is really well-suited for supporting roles, whether as a Stealth Rock user or Pursuit trapper, and it's no slouch offensively. However, it has very notable flaws that prevent it from being S-Rank, in my opinion. The first and foremost is obviously that defensive typing. While Tyranitar's special bulk lets it get away with handling most of what it needs to, it is plagued by weaknesses to very very relevant offensive typings (Water, Fighting, Bug, and Ground being chief amongst them). Tyranitar can very often perform its roles, but after doing so it invites openings to things you don't want to give openings to, such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus formes, etc. Or you could just get sniped by Dugtrio. This is doubly problematic in that Tyranitar has a hard time being a supporter and providing an offensive threat at the same time. Stealth Rock and Scarf sets don't pack nearly the wallop of CB, making them more of a defensive liability. So while Tyranitar is an exceptional supporter, I feel that its very notable weaknesses hinder it enough to keep it in A-rank.
  2. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    I'll Throw in my two cents, I guess!

    Now regarding Scrafty, I'm a little torn. One thing's certain from my experience is that he definitely has the potential to sweep teams with DD, Moxie, and incredible coverage. Tornadus-T getting the can is a nice boon for Scrafty so he can breathe a little easier now. Either way, Scrafty does have pretty nice bulk, an alright albeit good Attack, and decent overall qualities. Being slow does suck though. I can see Scrafty as D-Rank or possibly even C-Rank, but one thing's certain: Scrafty is definitely viable in OU.

    On Nidoqueen, I can agree with its placement. It has a definite niche in OU; it's a solid check to Terrakion and also a decent special attacker with its movepool and Sheer force. Nidoqueen can also set up Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock. C or D, either is fine by me.

    Amoonguss and Ttar should stay where they are, I need not explain.

    Just my two cents.
  3. Smilodon

    Smilodon

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    I absolutely agree with that advice. Mienshao doesn't fit in every team, especially because he's really frail, but given the right allies, he really shines.
    I've used it recently in a Volt-turn team (don't know why this style has been neglected, it's almost as deadly as it was in BW1, especially with the offensive metagame that bring frail threats), and he was really the star of the team.

    Tabuu already mentioned most of his usefull moves, so I'll just gona point out two that are often forgotten :
    - Fake out : Revenge killing is always nice, and despite the low power, this move is amazing to do that. Sometimes I spam it, then I switch out, sacrifice something and come back to shut down a threatening boosted sweeper. Many targets fall under High Jump Kick's KOs range after it.
    - Hidden Power Ice : Mienshao is the only fighting type which can run an efficient mixed set in OU (Infernape can, but he doesn't often carry HP ice, 4MSS). Yes, being a fighting type that is an immediate threat to Gliscor or Landorus-T is a very unique niche.

    And regenerator is one of the best ability in the game. Being able to switch in multiple times without caring about residual damage is just amazing.
    And his speed tier is quite good, above Landorus and Garchomp that he can hurt with super effective hit.

    Of course, he does have flaws. Ghost types are a real pain to face, especially Jellicent and Gengar. Tentacruel is really annoying (but spedef versions can't take too many High Jump Kick).
    But he's actually one of the best scoots of the metagame, and a really underrated threat in OU.

    Another point is that he is hard to use : an unpredicted protect means you can lose 50% of your life, you lose momentum if you don't predict an obvious switch, you have to make good calculations to know your chances to KO something (as you can't take any unresisted hit). But when you know how to use it, your opponent may have real troubles.
  4. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Not a lot of activity now, huh? Well, I'm going to second Mienshao going up to B-Rank. Having used it before, I can attest that it's positive qualities far outshine the negatives. In particular, I've found the Choice Scarf set to be particularly good. (Fake Out is a little less-than-stellar in my opinion, but that's just me.) Anyway, when looking at the Choice Scarf set, it's somewhat hard to not compare it to Terrakion, who packs better power, speed, bulk and STABs. The key to Mienshao's niche is it's ability to maintain momentum. Unlike Terrakion, Mienshao has access to U-Turn, as well as access to the amazing Regenerator, allowing it to shrug off any minor damage it may receive from hazards or recoil. Couple this with his fantastic speed (which outspeeds the same key threats that Terrakion does, such as Salamence and Volcarona), it's deadly Hi Jump Kick, and it's access to a decently powerful Hidden Power Ice, and you have a pokemon capable of putting good pressure on opponents, gaining momentum and even cleaning up late game. It's main flaw is that it really can't take a hit, but if you play it right (in this case, revenge killing what it can and U-Turning all over the place) it shouldn't have to. Overall, I've found it to be a very solid pokemon with a unique niche as a U-Turning Fighting type. I think it definitely fit into B-Rank.
  5. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    And I third Mienshao for B-Rank.

    Mienshao may look outclassed, but it's got some real good perks going for it. Firstly, it's offensive stats. 125 Attack, 95 Special Attack, and 105 Speed is very good, and allows Mienshao to wreck shop. The first cool thing is that 95 Special Attack is pretty good, so it can run Hidden Power Ice, which is a great perk to pose a threat to Landorus-T, Landorus-I, and Gliscor, so unlike the other Fighting-types, Mienshao can keep common counters at bay. Hi Jump Kick is really deadly, and coming off of 125 Attack, it's definitely gonna hurt. 105 Speed is really good and can get at Lando-I pretty well, not to mention it also outpaces Mence, which is good. Stone Edge is good too. Of course, the big ace in the hole for Mienshao is U-turn, and when paired with Regenerator, this thing can definitely keep up offensive momentum (RIP the days when I used this in conjunction with Genesect), and shrug off residual damage, and this also makes Mienshao a good fit on hail and sand teams because it kicks ass and has good synergy with Ttar/AbomaSTRONGTH. It may be frail and have trouble dealing with Ghost-types, but those are still outshined by the positive points. After all, there's a reason it got the S-Rank in UU. Mienshao should definitely be B-Rank, for it definitely fulfills a given offensive niche, and does it damn well.

    Another discussion, but where should the speedy spiker Bugs that we all know of by the names of Accelgor and Scolipede be placed on the list? Perhaps D or C? Well, they are both good at spiking so they should at least be on the list.
  6. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Summed it up pretty well. Life Orb sets are very good as well, as Mienshao doesn't care about the recoil, and can easily smash a couple heads with the power boost. B-Rank
    It should be noted that Fake Out is an awful move. Its predictable and weak, which pretty much gives a counter a near free switch in. There are much better options than it (if you're willing to use a slot for Fake Out, try Protect, which can scout for surprise moves), and I would suggest either being very tricky with it or not using it at all.
  7. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    It should be noted that Hi Jump Kick is boosted by Reckless. For a move already stronger than Terrakion's Close Combat, that's just overkill.
    252 Atk Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 144-169 (43.11 - 50.59%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 112-133 (33.53 - 39.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  8. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Oh dear, I never even considered that... that's just scary... Out of curiosity, does that calculation have an item factored in to boost the power of Hi Jump Kick?
  9. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    I've never used mienshao, so I don't know how good it is.

    Anyway, I agree with ScraftyIsTheBest that Scolipede and accelgor should be added to the D-rank. They are the fastest spiking leads in OU and can get past pokemon such as Ttar and latios with Megahorn/Focus blast/bug buzz. Scolipede's typing also allows it to check pokemon such as breloom. Accelgor can also get past starmie, OU's best rapid spinner. They often are useless outside of being a lead.

    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

    They fit this description perfectly. Scolipede and accelgor have a niche in the metagame, but are often useless after preforming their duties.
  10. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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    No.

    252Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 252HP/232Def Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 55% - 65% (186 - 219 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  11. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Ok, after reading a bit on the Landorus suspect thread, I've been convinced that part of it's power really strives from great synergy with one of the better pokemon in the game. It is indeed, because of this tandem, that I'd like to propose Tyranitar for S-Rank.

    Sure, Sandstorm is not as broken as Drizzle, but Tyranitar is certainly the better pokemon when compared to every other weather inducer, and it also happens to remove critical treats with it's ability to Pursuit-trap. The fact that it can check the only two reliable counters of one of the most offensive threats in the game right now, while setting up a weather, makes it's niche in the meta absolutely critical. Landorus is stated as S-rank, but Tyranitar is certainly also in the winning side of this tandem, and I believe that it can be enough to bump it up a rank.
  12. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Interesting, so there's more than one possible way of playing Mienshao. I imagine Regenerator would usually be the preferable ability, but the sheer power of that Reckless Hi Jump Kick might be a viable alternative. I bet Choice Band sets could really just spam Hi Jump Kick and things would die. Really though, the fact that Mienshao can have this amount of firepower at it's disposal gives it another good reason to go to B-Rank, I think.
  13. G-Von

    G-Von

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    What's really messed up is that under support, it can really be classified as S-rank because of his role with supporting the likes of Keldeo and Landorus. Those three on a team make an incredibly hard offensive core to break. BandTar, SpecsKeldeo, and SF Landorus destroys anything thrown its way. Keldeo handles water and ice moves that lando would be weak to while t-tar traps the checks and counters to Keldeo and Landorus.

    I must second it, Tyranitar for S-rank.
  14. zerohero

    zerohero

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    I dont think meinshao should move up to b-rank imo. c-rank seems just right for the weasel. There are better and faster fighting types that are more useful. The only thing that
    he has over the fighting types is regenator which is great ability and needs it since he is so frail. I feel like the common scarfer or anything in the 108 speed tier can ohko it. As for moves wise i feel like infernape could use the same move with equal sucess and a better mixed sweeper since most of the moves you mention he also have.
  15. False Sense

    False Sense

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    While I would rather not take sides in this Tyranitar debate, I felt like I should point out that Tyranitar is well known for being able to Pursuit trap almost all of Keldeo's counters, which makes them a lethal offensive duo. That's how Tyranitar supports Keldeo so well.
  16. G-Von

    G-Von

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    What are you talking about? Why are you trying to bring up Hippowdon when he is totally irrelevant to Keldeo and Landorus? Hippo does nothing good for either attacker. You don't understand, Hippo falls pathetically to Celebi and Latias, who needs to be gone for Landorus or Keldeo to sweep. Tyranitar traps them with Pursuit and kills them off easily without taking big damage from either one, even STAB Giga Drain from Celebi. Just because Tyranitar summons in sand doesn't mean that's the only way he can support.
  17. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    How doesn't Tyranitar support Keldeo in any way ? Tyranitar removes all Keldeo's counters but indeed, it doesn't support it. What can handle Keldeo? Jellicent, Celebi, Tentacruel, Latias, Latios, Starmie, Amoonguss and maybe a few other ones. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Tyranitar kill 90% of this list? Keldeo + Tyranitar is one of the best cores of the game for your information.
  18. False Sense

    False Sense

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    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    Personally I believe that Mienshao fits in here quite nicely. It fulfills an offensive niche as a U-turning Fighting type, something that only Infernape can also boast, but it doesn't have that amazing Regenerator ability. While something like Terrakion or Keldeo may oftentimes be more suitable for a team, keep in mind that those are both S-Rank pokemon, so they basically outperform everything, and Mienshao still has several unique qualities to distinguish itself from them. Partially outperformed, but still very dangerous is a very suitable way of describing Mienshao.
  19. SmashBrosBrawl

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    Look in all real honesty Mienshao is often more trouble than its worth. Sure it hits very hard and has great speed coupled with two great abilities, one of which prevents it from being worn down. But then you come to realize that his offensive movepool consists of not one but TWO unreliable moves (hi jump kick and stone edge), he is as frail as a zoroark and simply doenst do much that terrakion doesnt do already. All it truly has is u-turn and its superior abilities. Like seriously being reliant on bad-accuracy moves when youre frail is simply terrible. You can never be sure that it will fullfill its role because it might just miss a hi jump kick against blissey and suffer recoil plus giving your opponent a free switch. Its just too unreliable and frail. It honestly doesnt deserve B-Rank.
  20. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Well, that's a valid point, except I think you're slightly over exaggerating the issue. Hi Hump Kick has a pretty solid 90% accuracy, so while it does miss from time to time, it's hardly any worse than the constantly-spammed Hydro Pumps we see all the time. Terrakion uses Stone Edge too, don't forget. On top of that, it often has HP Ice or U-Turn as more reliable options, so it's not completely luck based. But back to Hi Jump Kick, I think that the accuracy isn't that big of an issue. If it was, say, Focus Blast it was relying on, then we would have problems, but Hi Jump Kick WILL hit 90% of the time, and I don't think that's low enough to warrant it being held back.
  21. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Cause it makes you lose 50% health everytime you miss. Add life orb recoil into that and you see how unreliable mienshao really is.
  22. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Don't forget that it can switch out at any time and regain a large portion of that health back.
  23. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    It loses 60% health by missing and recover 33% by switching. That adds up VERY quickly and not everyone uses regenerator.
  24. False Sense

    False Sense

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    50%; Life Orb isn't factored if it doesn't hit. And not everyone even uses Life Orb; Choice Scarf sets can easily come in after a Revenge Kill or slow U-Turn, do some damage and switch out. And again, Hi Jump Kick will more often than not hit; it really doesn't add up that quickly.
  25. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Why would you use choice scarf mienshao when terrakion exists?
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