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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Gyarados... I honestly haven't seen much of it recently, so a lot of what I'm about to say will be theorymon. There's no doubt that Gyarados is one of the most underrated threats out there. It can most definitely wreck teams with the proper support. The question is really how much support does it need to be effective. Gyarados is sorta stuck on Rain teams, since Politoed does quite a lot for it, being able to remove sand and hail that would chip away at Gyarados, while at the same time boosting its main STAB. Then you need something to spin for it, which pretty much leaves you with either Starmie or Tentacruel (or Forretress, if you're ballsy enough to run that in rain). Lots of similar typing there. After that, you need something that can handle Ferrothorn, which beats basically everything I've mentioned up until this point.
    And at this point you've got 4/6 members of your team supporting Gyarados. I just think that Gyarados needs more support than some other options. Not saying its bad, but that it does need quite a bit of support, and therefore is difficult to fit into a team.
  2. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    "Gyarados is sorta stuck on Rain teams"
    Eh. I beg to differ. Personally I've used Gyarados on Sandstream teams and it worked quite well, checking Drizzle and Drought teams with amazing proficiency. Sure it didn't like that extra residual damage but with Leftovers it isn't all too bad. Gyarados, as I had pointed out, can fit on many teams thanks to his ability to go quite versatile in his roles. Whether it be a sweeper or a Pivot, Gyarados does his job well.

    "Then you need something to spin for it, which pretty much leaves you with either Starmie or Tentacruel " After that, you need something that can handle Ferrothorn, which beats basically everything I've mentioned up until this point.
    Dragonite needs that same support as well. Dragonite struggles to break past Skarmory unless he is at +1 under the Sun. Gyarados actually can beat Ferrothorn 1v1 as long as it carries Bounce.
    Gyarados and Dragonite are in very similar boats when it comes to support. However they both carry incredible power and utility with them with the cost of some team support. A-Rank is still a good place for Gyarados in my eyes.
  3. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Actually defensive Gyarados is pretty good for Hail teams since they something to take Fire Blast and Close Combat.

    I don't see how it can set up on Ferrothorn though. The only way I can see that is if a teammate burned Ferrothorn (Scald!), making Ferrothorn unable to break Gyarados's subs.
  4. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    True True...however if Ferrothorn is intimidated then Power Whip will not break. But I see your point. However, regardless Gyarados can defeat it 1v1 thanks to Dragon Dance and Bounce.
  5. Cygnis

    Cygnis

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    Just noticed that Gyarados can go mixed with Fire Blast if used on a Hail team to destroy steels friends.

    Anyways, Gyarados has potential to be A-Rank. It can run the Choice Scarf set similiarly to Salamence or a deadly Bulky Band set. Not only that but the SubDD set and DD set can sweep entire teams. It even has awesome defenses plus typing to check a numerous amount of threats. And also, it got one of the best abilites in the game, actually two! Gyarados should not be underestimated and is worthy to be A-Rank. It fits the definition perfectly.
  6. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I disagree. I feel like B-rank is fine for Gyarados. It has the same exact abilities as Salamence, who completely outclasses it in every way offensively. Its base 80 speed is very slow in todays metagame and allows many scarfers to outspeed it even after a DD. Also, using Bounce as its main flying type STAB move is no where near the term "phenomenal". It is a very risky move that really shouldn't be ran. It being weak to Volt Switch also hinders it. Defensively, it has some merit, but being SR-weak with no reliable recovery really hurts it, too.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Hitmontop, in my opinion, is much better than Donphan as an OU spinner. Donphan tries to do too much (set up Rocks, spin, kill dragons, etc.) for something that is so easily killed due to his piss-poor special defense; it's weakness to Water, Ice, and Grass type attacks; as well as its mediocre attack (when uninvested). Also, please don't even try to say that Donphan uses Odor Sleuth. Donphan's moveset is Earthquake / Stealth Rock / Ice Shard / Rapid Spin. I mean, look at this month's usage stats:

    Odor Sleuth isn't even mentioned as an option. That's because, like I said, Donphan tries to do too much as it is. Adding Odor Sleuth to its moveset makes this problem even worse. Plus, Hitmontop gets great moves like Close Combat, Mach Punch, Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, etc. which are all great options for taking out certain threats to your team. I still think the lack of Water/Ice/Grass weakness is enough to make him a better choice than Donphan on Sun teams.
    Jaiho likes this.
  8. Zentrius

    Zentrius

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    Gyarados should stay on B-rank. It's huge weakness to Electric attacks is horrifying as it is very easy to take advantage of, specially when some dedicated VoltTurn teams are still alive. Really, Gyarados is easy to counter as an offensive sweeper and Salamence hugely outclasses it in this regard as a Moxie sweeper. However, Gyarados does a great job as an special wall, specially when Sheer Force Landorus and Keldeo are as popular as ever.

    Is it great as a wall? Yes, but that isn't enough to deserve an A-rank.
  9. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Most people are talking about Gyarados' very prominent 4X Electric weakness, and that's fair. ANY 4X weakness is huge.

    But Electric attacks aren't THAT common, not anymore. What's much bigger is his base 79 Defense and his weakness to Rock attacks. Terrakion has a virtually guaranteed revenge kill with Rock Slide or Stone Edge. Any variation of Dragon Dance is OHKOd by Jolly Rock Slide after Rocks, and Gyarados must be Timid and at +2 to outrun Scarf Terrakion, so unless you make some boss predictions and hit it with Waterfall on the switch, you're not only shut down by some very common walls, but by a great deal of offensive checks.
  10. The Immortal

    The Immortal Administrator of Showdown!
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    I propose Dragonite be dropped to B rank.

    The first and most significant reason for this is weather. All four types of weather have a negative effect on offensive Dragonite. Rain gives it a harder time against defensive Steel types such as Ferrothorn/Jirachi, allowing them to set up. Sun prevents it from sweeping due to Chlorophyll threats such as Venusaur stopping it (assuming Multiscale is broken). Sandstorm and Hail both break Multiscale, which along with Extremespeed and being slightly bulkier is it's advantage over the faster, and much more capable of a sweep due to Moxie, Salamence.

    The second reason for this it off course it's Stealth Rock weakness, which requires Dragonite to have support in the form of Rapid Spin.

    The third reason is better choices. As previously mentioned, Salamence is much more capable of sweeping the current metagame, whether it is a Choice Scarf set or a Dragon Dance set due to it's speed in addition to Moxie. Garchomp is another better option. Resistance to Stealth Rock, base 130 Attack, access to Swords Dance and it's base 102 speed allows it to sweep a significant portion of the current metagame, something Dragonite cannot do.
  11. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Nah, Fire Blast Gyarados stinks on Hail. I'd only consider it on a Drought team, but then it weakens Waterfall, meaning you'll have to stick for Bounce for your STAB (or Return if you don't want the risk of Bounce).

    RestTalk Gyarados actually checks a lot of Steels anyway (Scizor, Heatran, Jirachi, etc. provided the latter 2 don't use an electric move).

    TIMID Gyarados? Please tell you meant Jolly.

    Yeah the Rock weakness is a bigger deal than the Electric weakness, he's mediocre speed means even he's easily revenge killed. Thankfully, as Waterfall/Bounce have great coverage, he can run Substitute along with DD to help to make it harder to be revenge killed. Sub also makes using Bounce a lot safer.

    Overall, I feel Salamence is better as a Moxie sweeper, but Gyarados has his niches. B-Rank is good enough for me.
  12. Lork

    Lork

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    so what is the consensus for conkeldurr and his most effective set? there was some discussion a few pages back but it got lost.
  13. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    I support Dragonite being dropped to B-rank.
    Kyurem outclasses the non-boosting SubRoost sets thanks to Pressure, higher speed and the ability to use LO without side effects, Kyurem-B is a better mixed attacker who doesn't care about rain and again pulls off the boosting SubRoost set better, Hydreigon, Latios and even Latias are better special attackers thanks to higher speed and special attack (let's be honest base 100 special attack isn't great) and finally Haxorus, Garchomp and Salamence are better physical attackers thanks to much better speed.

    Dragonite is a jack of all trades who absolutely needs Multiscale active to be able to do anything and it's quite possibly the only dragon besides Latias who has little offensive presence on the turn it's sent out (except on CB sets, but why would you use CB Dragonite in the first place), giving the opponent the chance to work around it.
  14. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    I wouldnt say dragonite is a b-tier pokemon. Kyurem and dragonite are two different pokemon in the first place, kyurem is weak to mach punch and bullet punch for example, and has a different typing. Not to mention it doesnt have dragon dance and its phisical movepool sucks. To be honest i dont even understand your comparison with special dragons like latios and dragonite, they are just diffrent.
    As for haxorus, garchomp and salamence, you are wrong. Haxorus is bad, it is outclassed by dragonite because it doesnt have multiscale to get a free dragon dance, it doesnt have extremespeed to kill scarfers, it has a bad typing in comparison with dragonite and less bulk. The same can be said for dragon dance salamence by the way, 100 base speed is still not enough to outspeed keldeo and terrakion, so the speed doesnt really matter. Salamence has less bulk and less chance to setup a dragon dance, thats why its utility is p much being a better scarfer than others dragon. Garchomp maybe has the bulk but it doesnt have extremespeed and dragon dance, honestly i would only use it with stealth rock, all the other sets are pretty much outclassed by other things.

    Why would i use cb dragonite in the first place? to send it out in the first turn to force my opponent to sac something to break its multiscale, then use it later to revenge kill stuff with extreme speed if needed (cb nite pretty much has the same bp of bullet punch scizor)
  15. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Yeah, I dunno why anyone tries to use Donphan as a revenge killer. Its too weak to try going uninvested against them, its a much better idea to just use it as a Rapid Spinner and leave it at that.
    The great moves that you list really aren't that great for it. Close Combat is a really bad move for a defensive pokemon, and Hitmontop isn't hitting hard with it off an uninvested attack stat. The other moves have their uses, but then Hitmontop runs into the same problem that Donphan does; it needs those moveslots for other things, one for Rapid Spin, one for Foresight, one for Close Combat (or whatever STAB you want to use), and the last one can go to Toxic, Rest, Stone Edge, or any of the moves you listed. What's more, Hitmontop basically needs Toxic in order to stand any chance against Jellicent, as otherwise Jellicent will be able to sit in front of it and whittle it down with Scald while healing with Recover. The things you listed are good on the Technitop set, which is almost never used due to overlaps with other Pokemon (Breloom).
    I dunno, every time I've tried to use Hitmontop, I end up wishing I was using something else. It seems like more trouble than its worth most of the time.
  16. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Conkeldurr is def. better than it was a little while ago because Torn-T isn't freaking everywhere. He's too slow to bulk up, so that set is out. However his SubPunch and status orb sets can deal tremendous amounts of damage, and sponging Conkeldurr's hits isn't precisely easy.

    I'd say he's right where he should be, but I could see him in low B-rank.
  17. FreeFormJazz

    FreeFormJazz

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    Jirachi is one of the best and most versatile pokemon in the meta. It fills so many roles, it functions amazingly as a wall/tank, being able to sponge even powerful draco meteors. It can support the team amazingly, by setting up Stealth Rocks, spreading paralyses, and giving wishes and lunar dances. It works as an amazing choice scarfer, with its amazing set of coverage moves, revenge killing a large portion of the metagame, and being able to flinch things to death. Serene Grace is also one of the best abilities in the game. It works brilliantly as a set up sweeper because of its decent speed, fantastic natural bulk, great typing and a movepool that couldn't be better allowing it to hit potentially every mon for SE damage.

    Jirachi for S rank.
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Holy shit yes I meant Jolly. I do not know where that came from. Yikes.

    But one of the points I was trying to make is that Gyarados' base speed holds him back too much to sweep effectively. Bounce is not a good STAB move to rely on, but using Stone Edge opens you up to Ferrorthorn and Return to Jellicent. B-rank is where he should stay.
  19. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    A-Rank Definition: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
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    The Immortal: "The first and most significant reason for this is weather. All four types of weather have a negative effect on offensive Dragonite."

    Funny, considering Dragonite literally has the movepool to succeed in, pretty much, any weather. Underneath Drought, Dragonite receives a Pseduo-STAB in the form of either Fire Punch or Fire Blast. If one chooses to run Politoed in conjunction with Dragonite, he receives a Pseudo-STAB in Waterfall and is free to abuse his STAB Hurricane or opt for the 100% accurate-under-rain Thunder. Sandstorm and Hail do break Multiscale; however Leftovers is always certainly a viable item of choice to use if one wishes to negate those effects.

    Rain does give Dragonite a harder time dealing with Ferrothorn and Jirachi; however you're assuming Fire Punch is the given choice. With +1, Ferrothorn under rain is looking at a solid 2HKO (+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in rain: 184-220 (52.27 - 62.5%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO). Earthquake is also a very popular alternate to Fire Punch due to the excessive Rain plaguing OU. Thus, Jirachi is very susceptible to Earthquakes from Dragonite as even at +0, Dragonite can 2HKO the metal pixie (252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 246-290 (60.89 - 71.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). The only real Steel Type that'll be a nuisance to Dragonite underneath Rain would have to be Skarmory and the rare Bronzong. However, even Salamence and Garchomp are going to struggle breaking down those two Pokemon underneath the Rain.

    Sun teams are a hell of lot easier to deal with for Dragonite. Thanks to Multiscale and his resistances to the two common STABs of Drought threats (Grass and Fire), Dragonite can easily set-up and run through unprepared Sun Teams. In the section below, I ran calculations regarding Venusaur, a popular Chlorophyll threat. As you will see, Dragonite has no problem handling this threat.
    Show Hide
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 347-409 (107.43 - 126.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Now let's observe this scenario (as I believe this is what you were talking about). A +2 Modest LO Venusaur was able to take down a Dragonite that lacked Multiscale (or had it broken) in one hit. I guess therefore that means Salamence and Garchomp fall in the same boat of struggling, yet again, against Sun threats. Watch the same Venusaur use his moves on Salamence and Garchomp:
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 465-550 (140.48 - 166.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 333-394 (93.27 - 110.36%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
    However, since you said that Dragonite lost his Multiscale it's only fair that Garchomp takes Stealth Rock damage. The chance to OHKO with Giga Drain becomes 93.75%.
    You said that Venusaur under the Sun can stop a Dragonite. This is only assuming that Venusaur has grabbed a +2. This is only assuming Dragonite has lost Multiscale. This is only assuming he is running Modest Nature [Now, people prefer Timid as it prevents Venusaur from being revenge-killed by things such as Scarfed Terrakion and Latios].
    Maybe Venusaur can run Sleep Powder. Well if Venusaur runs Sleep Powder, that means Venusaur had to forgo Sludge Bomb, his only method of even touching Dragonite. Keep in mind that many Dragonites carry Lum Berries as they hate Confusion. Thus if Venusaur does use Sleep Powder, Dragonite will only awake the next turn to OHKO with Fire Punch. If it lacks Lum Berry it probably holds Leftovers which allows for the slow Regeneration of Multiscale. Even if Venusaur dances to +6, Giga Drain and HP Fire cannot OHKO the Multiscale beast. There is probably a good chance Dragonite has woken up if Venusaur decided to dance to +6 and then throw an attack.
    Honestly, if you are arguing that a +2 Modest LO Venusaur stops Dragonite and thus makes Dragonite unable to handle Sun then Salamence and Garchomp need to take this into consideration as well because they too cannot handle a +2 Modest LO Venusaur.


    Finally regarding Hail and Sand damage. Dragonite's Multiscale, especially on offensively oriented variants, isn't meant to be preserved the whole time he is out on the field. His ability is his temporary shield that 95% of the time, guarantees a Dragon Dance to be put underneath his belt. If the situation is kind enough, grabbing 2 Dragon Dances is certainly a possibility. For Pokemon such as Salamence and Garchomp, who can easily be revenged by Ice Shards or Faster Scarfers, grabbing two boosts is possible but almost never happens against a good opponent. Also even if Dragonite's Multiscale breaks under Stealth Rock of Hail and Sand, Dragonite has resistances and a very useful immunity to set up on.
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    The Immortal: "The second reason for this it off course it's Stealth Rock weakness, which requires Dragonite to have support in the form of Rapid Spin."

    You make support sound like it's a bad thing to have. Kyurem-B appreciates Stealth Rocks being off the field as they hinder him and the number of times he can show up on the field. It also facilitates revenge-killing the brute. Salamence shares the same story as if it gets forced out, it'll be losing 25% of its health on entrance and more as Salamence sometimes opt to carry Life Orb. It also becomes easier to revenge a Salamence if it has taken Stealth Rock damage.

    If you look at the A-Rank Definition, posted at the top, it states that it requires some support to overcome a flaw that may hinder their sweep consistency, which is certainly true, in most cases for Dragonite. Dragonite can still sweep without Multiscale but it may be a tad harder to do, as Revenge Killing opens up. But regardless, Dragonite is in need of support to do his job consistently. He does not need to be self-sufficient or else he'd become S-Rank. Look at the other A-Rank Pokemon too. Pretty much every single one of those Pokemon require some support of some kind in order to operate consistently.
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    The Immortal: "The third reason is better choices."

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    Can Salamence ever guarantee a boost? How about Garchomp? Terrakion? While the chances are high, they cannot never guarantee a set-up. Dragonite differentiates itself thanks to its ability in Multiscale. You argue that Salamence has a better shot at sweeping the metagame thanks to Moxie. Thing is there are so many faster threats that exist in OU that are capable of OHKOing Salamence even with a Scarf. Ranging from Scarfed Keldeo to Scarfed Latios to Mamoswine, these Pokemon can all stop a Salamence sweep short. However, thanks to Dragonite's Multiscale, revenge-killers are actually in danger of getting KO'd themselves in an attempt to revenge Dragonite. Dragonite also has superior Bulk along with Extreme Speed, a power priority to abuse. Don't forget Dragonite has access to perfect coverage as well ,assisting in his offensive prowess. Garchomp can sweep the a majority of the OU Environment but so can Dragonite. Dragonite, once again, has a better chance of setting up and has a better shot at handling Revenge Killers. If you think Dragonite is incapable of sweeping the majority of OU please list those Pokemon.
    However, Dragonite doesn't stop there. His Choice Band set will always be superior to Salamence if he chooses to hold one. Garchomp may seem like competition but Dragonite boasts Multiscale, higher Attack base power and Extreme Speed. This allows him to break walls and revenge at the same time.
    His tanking sets are unrivaled thanks to his bulk and his ability. Bulky Boosting is something Dragonite does proficiently better than Salamence or Garchomp
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    I think I've gone far enough with your three arguments. As you can see, Dragonite's quality have solidified his place in A-Rank.
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  20. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Dragonite for B-Rank!? I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

    I strongly disagree with this. Dragonite is one of the most terrifying pokemon to face in the metagame, and for good reason. Multiscale makes it incredibly difficult to OHKO and virtually guarantees a turn of set up. This is critical to it's success, because once it gets a boost it's difficult to stop it's rampage due to that invincibility facto it has with Multiscale.

    Now about the more specific arguments... lets see here...

    Weather: All four weathers are bad for Dragonite? Funny, I seem to recall Dragonite being an excellent choice for Rain teams for it's unique ability to spam Thunder and Hurricane at the same time.Even with a standard DD set Fire Punch will hurt Ferrothorn at +1. How is Sun bad for Dragonite? Last I checked it often ran Fire Punch, which gets boosted by Sun. Plus it resists Fire and Grass, probably the defining offensive types for Sun. Sand and Hail can neuter Multiscale (assuming it doesn't have Leftovers), but they don't really affect it much other than that. Honestly, I thought that being a bulky dragon made you GOOD against weather, not weak to it. Heck, Garchomp is pretty vulnerable to Rain teams due to his Ground type, but he's being advocated for S-Rank.

    Stealth Rocks: Oh, guess we should probably bring Salamence and Kyurem-B down too. This hurts Dragonite, but the same can be said for a lot of pokemon.

    Outclassed by other Dragons: Nah, not really. It's one of the best Dragon Dancers thanks to Multiscale and it's fantastic movepool. (It has priority. Seriously, not many dragons have that.) Really the only special sets used are the Rain sets, which have the unique niche of having Thunder and STAB Hurricane on the same pokemon. Also people, if you want to really exploit Dragonite's potential with Multiscale, give the SubDD set a try. It laughs at Ferrothorn and other common walls and abuses Multiscale to the fullest. Seriously, that set alone has a ton of destructive potential in a way that can't be replicated by any other pokemon.

    Bottom line, keep Dragonite in A-Rank.
  21. Smilodon

    Smilodon

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    I don't use Hitmontop really often, but sometimes it's just the spinner that really fit a team.
    I've used both sets : Technician (Fake out, Mach Punch, Sucker punch and Rapid Spin) and Intimidate (Close Combat, Sucker Punch, Stone Edge and Rapid Spin). And they do their job quite well.
    Despite the bad attack stat, I used it as an offensive spinner, adamant max Attack (and HP) with Life Orb or Leftovers. He has good coverage, and can force a surprising amount of switches. And many people don't give him any credit, so they attack with their Starmie or weakened Latios and die to sucker punch.

    Intimidate set is good in a balanced team, where the rock, bug and dark resist are appreciated. Technician has been a precious ally in a distortion team, where a revenge killer with good priorities is really appreciated.

    The only real drawback is that he struggles to kill ghost (he can run toxik to annoy most of them thought, instead of stone edge), so use it if a spinner is useful but not mandatory on your team.
  22. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Yeah I agree with this. I only like using Bounce if he has Substitute. Stay at B-Rank.

    81 just seems like a really weird base speed...gotta make him 1 point faster than Dragonite I suppose?
  23. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Wow Dragonite for B-Rank? Quite a surprise.

    Honestly, I'm stuck in the middle on this one. Dragonite is an extremely dangerous Pokemon, and I've been destroyed by the DD set many of times, and also swept by CB Dragonite's Extremespeed before. I think one of the biggest things going for Dragonite is it's amazing move pool and one of the few bulky sweepers in the tier. With Multiscale intact, Dragonite is pretty much guaranteed a free +1. Problem is, he's easily revenged killed by common Scarfers such as Terrakion, Landorus, and Salamence, and keeping up Multiscale for most of the battle can be quite a pain too, especially with Sand and Stealth Rocks being so common. This pretty much forces Dragonite to run Leftovers on its All out attacking and sweeping sets if he wants to abuse his ability. Although his bulk is really good for a Dragon type, his speed is quite lackluster, and it forces Dragonite to run DD or Extremespeed if it wants to have a chance at out speeding anything. Although most Dragons such as Salamence appreciate Rapid Spin support, Dragonite pretty much HAS to have a spinner if it wants to be very successful. Running no spinner on a team forces Dragonite to run Roost, which can really hinder an offensive sweeping set, and doesn't fit well on the CB set either. Still, Haxorus and Kyurem-B run a more successful CB set since they have arguably better speed with Higher attack, Haxorus being neutral to SR and common priority, while Kyurem-B has really huge bulk that can even withstand a Bullet Punch from CB Scizor. Dragonite has nice bulk too, however without Multiscale intact it really depends a little too much on its bulk to take a hit, which can really hurt it in the long run.

    Overall, Dragonite has a lot of potential and can pretty much decimate teams with little effort, however it requires proper team support, Rapid Spin support, possible T-Wave support, Extremespeed, a free switch opportunity if not running roost, and it's lack luster speed really pushes it out of the A-Tier. Similar to Volcarona, it can 6-0 teams with ease, however it requires a lot of support to be able to pull off a really successful sweep, and it's lackluster speed prevents it from sweeping successfully even at +1. Even Volcarona can out speed more at +1 then Dragonite.

    Don't give me hate, but now that I think about it I agree that Dragonite could possibly be B-Tier. However, it should be considered VERY high B-Tier, like Hydreigon, Skarmory, and Volcarona.
  24. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    "Problem is, he's easily revenged killed by common Scarfers such as Terrakion, Landorus, and Salamence, and keeping up Multiscale for most of the battle can be quite a pain too, especially with Sand and Stealth Rocks being so common."

    Salamence is also another victim of such revenge-killers. Yet, I have yet to see anyone propose that the Mence step down to B-Rank. Keeping Multiscale up for most of the battle? That's not the point. I feel like that is a pretty big misconception. Multiscale for pure offensive sets is only useful during the set-up period. Sure it's nice to have it stick around all the time but hey, Dragonite will encounter damage along the way. What makes Dnite such a dangerous Offensve Pokemon is that he can afford to go full of Offensive (252 Atk EVs with 252 Spe EVs) but he isn't frail and is often given an opportunity to set up more than one Dragon Dance. For support and bulkier variants, keeping Multiscale up at all times is pretty important as that is quite literally what the set was based around.

    "Although his bulk is really good for a Dragon type, his speed is quite lackluster, and it forces Dragonite to run DD or Extremespeed if it wants to have a chance at out speeding anything."

    And that's the beauty of Multiscale. He doesn't always have to outspeed. Terrakion vs Salamence. Salamence must outspeed Terrakion to win the situation or else it'll always lose. Terrakion vs Dragonite. Terrakion can hit with Stone Edge first and get KO'd by Dragonite's CB Outrage or DD Earthquake or +1 Outrage. And TBH, Salamence's speed is lackluster as well. Sure it's base 100 but in the grand scheme of things base 100 is pretty darn slow when compared to top tier OU threats who are breaking past base speeds of 105. Also Dragonite can obtain pretty much perfect coverage through [Outrage]+[Fire Punch or Earthquake]. Therefore Dragonite really does have the luxury of running Extremespeed.

    "Overall, Dragonite has a lot of potential and can pretty much decimate teams with little effort, however it requires proper team support, Rapid Spin support, possible T-Wave support, Extremespeed, a free switch opportunity if not running roost, and it's lack luster speed really pushes it out of the A-Tier."

    All A-Rank Pokemon require proper team support. If they had the capability of being self-supportive than they would go S-Rank. Reading the definition of A-Rank it clearly states that it needs support in order to perform consistently. Having to have Rapid Spin support is not enough to drop it to B-Rank. T-Wave is very optional as Dnite carries Dragon Dance. Lack Luster speed is easily alleviated by Dragon Dance and his ability Multiscale, as it allows him to survive hits from faster Pokemon.
  25. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Dragonite is an amazing pokemon and should be no lower than A-Rank. Dragonite may not have the greatest speed, but like breloom and scizor, it has a powerful priority in extremespeed. CB dragonite is one of the best revenge killers, and has a powerful STAB outrage. Even though multiscale can be easily broken, offensive dragonite don't need it for very long to be successful and bulky dragonite can heal up with roost. Dragonite also has a lot of versatality, meaning that you can never know what its running until it is too late. Dragonite can also functon well in rain and sun. Rain allows dragonite to use its powerful STAB hurricanes and a useful Thunder while sun gives it psuedo STAB on fire blast. Dragonite is one of OU's biggest threats and deserves A-Rank.

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