Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Halcyon.]

So what if you kill yourself?

Your opponent will do it anyways

Tbh, I would almost rather the 10% chance (that's an ice beam freeze...) of taking damage and not hitting on a STRONGER move then the 100% chance of defenses going down the drain with close combat.

And I never said a thing about regenerator...

I just have to say that I completely agree with this. Honestly, the 10% chance of missing is pretty negligible considering, as you said, it's the same as an Ice Beam freeze or a Flamethrower burn. That's like saying Starmie can beat Ferrothorn because Ice Beam has a chance to freeze. The times you're going to miss HJK are so few and far between that it won't make a difference. Not only that, Mienshao's frailty means that the miss usually doesn't matter since you will have died anyway (or at least come close enough that you can be revenge killed).

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[alexwolf]

The only good sets of Mienshao are two from my experience:

Mienshao @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Regenerator
Nauture: Naive
- Hi Jump Kick
- Hidden Power Ice
- Grass Knot / Stone Edge
- U-turn

Mienshao @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Regenerator
Nauture: Jolly / Naive
- Hi Jump Kick
- Stone Edge / Hidden Power Ice
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

The first set has only four counters in OU (with Grass Knot) with SR factored in, Gyarados, Tentacruel, SpD Jellicent, and BU Toxicroak. I prefer Grass Knot better than Stone Edge because Grass Knot 2HKOes any Hippowdon after Stealth Rock and 2HKOes the most common Jellicent (physically defensive), which are more common and will switch into Mienshao much more often than Gyarados, SpD Jelli, and BU Toxicroak. Pair this set with LO Weavile, to Pursuit trap and Lati@s, TR Reuniclus, Jellicent, and Gengar, and prevent them from ruining your fun and you are set. Every time Mienshao gets in the opponent will be hard pressed to find a safe switch-in to this guy.

The second set still hits hard as fuck, 2HKOing Skarmory after SR, but trades some super effective hits on specific targets with the ability to shield itself from priority, revenge kills, and pass a Sub to a teammate, essentially bringing him in for free.

Choice Scarf Mienshao is viable, but really mediocre and mostly outclassed as a revenge killer. It dies from a +1 ES from Dragonite after SR + Spikes, a basic sweeper scarfers are supposed to check, doesn't have a second useful STAB and his main STAB is to easy to switch-into, and has zero switch-in opportunites due to its frailty. Regenerator doesn't matter a lot anyway, as Mienshao shouldn't be taking any hits so the only life it loses is via sand and hazards, which is not enough to really wear it down, making Regenerator not so great on it. Besides, how many switch-in opportunities you think Mienshao will get in a match? 1,2, 3 max, so most of the time passive damage wouldn't have been a problem for Scarf Mienshao anyway.

Finally, i don't see the reason to use Reckless. HJK already 2HKOes whatever you would want it to except for physically defensive Hippo, which can be 2HKOed anyway by HJK + GK, so why bother? Not worth losing one of Mienshao's selling points as a wallbreaker, its almost immunity to residual damage, making LO stalling it impossible.

Keep Mienshao in C rank. Has a clear niche of a good wallbreaker that is almost immune at residual damage, but is usually outclassed by other Fighting Pokemon in OU such as Breloom and Terrakion, which usually fit better on a standard OU team.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

So moving on, why is Zoroark so underrated? Come on C-Rank? Illusion works wonder if you know which pokemons to disguise as and the mixed set is incredibly good at luring in and eliminating many threats. Disguise yourself as a dragon to lure in that scarf latios and ko it with sucker punch, disguise yourself as walls like blissey to lure in ferrothorn/forretress/skarmory and dispatch them with flamethrower, disguise yourself as the latiwins to lure in tyranitar and ko it with focus blast and not to mention the great power behind dark pulse to easily beat jellicent and leave a dent in anything not resistant to it. It can even run swords dance/nasty plot sets and disguise itself as common users of this move to play even more mindgames. Seriously, it should be B-Rank at least.

 

[Halcyon.]

So moving on, why is Zoroark so underrated? Come on C-Rank? Illusion works wonder if you know which pokemons to disguise as and the mixed set is incredibly good at luring in and eliminating many threats. Disguise yourself as a dragon to lure in that scarf latios and ko it with sucker punch, disguise yourself as walls like blissey to lure in ferrothorn/forretress/skarmory and dispatch them with flamethrower, disguise yourself as the latiwins to lure in tyranitar and ko it with focus blast and not to mention the great power behind dark pulse to easily beat jellicent and leave a dent in anything not resistant to it. It can even run swords dance/nasty plot sets and disguise itself as common users of this move to play even more mindgames. Seriously, it should be B-Rank at least.

See, I would totally agree with that, except that I've found it really difficult to control who you're going to come in as. Maybe it's just that I don't have enough experience with Zoroark, but every time I've tried, over the course of the battle, Illusion just becomes too complicated to manage. Mono Dark isn't a great of a typing either...still he's pretty good whenever I've used him.

 

[zerohero]

I think zoroark should be at least c rank at most. His illusion is a pretty cool ability but lil things you have to do to make sure his illusion works. 1 is the amount of damage you take from SR when disgusing as a different pokemon. 2 is making sure when is the right time to switch in( switching in for revenging will give him up). he has a great moveset to adset his attacking ability. but ask yourself when will get the chance to set up SD or NP safely since he is so frail.

 

[Pikachuu]

Team preview really hurts Zoroark effectiveness if it didn't exist it would probably be A-rank. It can still be really good if used correctly though. Also it can't really take a hit so it's hard to switch him in. Since tiers are getting added to ranks I think Zoroark would fit nicely in high C.

 

[False Sense]

Ok, as much as it pains me to say this, I don't think Zoroark should move up to B-Rank. Don't get me wrong; Zoroark is a really unique and good pokemon. The problem is just how difficult it is to utilize it and fit it on a team. It's incredible fragility and Illusion mean that it's giving just the right teammates can be quite difficult, and then actually being able to use it in battle is equally as hard. Heck, we even had an entire CCAT based around Zoroark shut down because of how complicated it is working with Zoroark. All in all, while in the right hands Zoroark can really shine, it's not something you can just slap on a team by any means, and it has a major risk factor that is virtually unmatched. I'd say keep it in C-Rank. Sorry Zoroark...

 

[GatoDelFuego]

The problem with zoroark is it doesn't really offer anything. As a dark-type special/physical attacker it doesn't really do bad but it doesn't do that well either. Good coverage is ok but it doesn't really have the power by other standards to attempt a full-on sweep. Let's face it; when you're building a team you're only putting zoroark on there because you want to use zoroark/illusion. Illusion sounds great but it doesn't really work out due to being horrifically predictable sometimes and zoroark doesn't have the bulk to take a hit off a bluffed resist (oh yeah, resists on a dark-type? Problems there too) and if anything weak to psychic is in while zoroark has not been revealed then 99% of the time you know it's a zoroark. It's fine to be in C-rank, moving it up to the level of volcaronas, hydreigons, and gliscors doesn't really make sense.

 

[PK Gaming]

The problem with zoroark is it doesn't really offer anything. As a dark-type special/physical attacker it doesn't really do bad but it doesn't do that well either. Good coverage is ok but it doesn't really have the power by other standards to attempt a full-on sweep. Let's face it; when you're building a team you're only putting zoroark on there because you want to use zoroark/illusion. Illusion sounds great but it doesn't really work out due to being horrifically predictable sometimes and zoroark doesn't have the bulk to take a hit off a bluffed resist (oh yeah, resists on a dark-type? Problems there too) and if anything weak to psychic is in while zoroark has not been revealed then 99% of the time you know it's a zoroark. It's fine to be in C-rank, moving it up to the level of volcaronas, hydreigons, and gliscors doesn't really make sense.

More or less, this yeah

It's 2 biggest problems are that it offers 0 defensive synergy to your team because of how frail it is, and just isn't fast enough (it stops short of every base 108, 110, 115+ threats in the tier). It's not something you can put on any team (you build around it), and its payout isn't as high as... say, Landorus. I'd describe it as a high-risk / medium reward type pokemon. Hard to justify using when all of the top tier threat threats in OU are low risk / insanely high reward.

I will say from experience that 99% of the time, your opponent doesn't see Zoroark coming when executed correctly(yes even against good players). But again, Zoroark doesn't "wildly" change the outcome of the match most of the time, so its tiering is justified.

 

[Eleman]

Actually, Zoroark is a pretty obvious pokemon in terms of playstyle. It is almost always used as a lead and most dedicated leads can counter Zoroark pretty well. Zoroark also has huge problems like being very frail which is even worse because it takes damage from all types of entry hazards. It also does not have perfect coverage and its movepool is not expansive enough to hit enough of the metagame. Dark is not a very good type as well for a pokemon in OU because of Scizor, which is #1 in OU usage and takes a lot of damage from U-Turn, which is extremely common. Zoroark is mostly just a surprise lead and with team preview, it loses a lot of its surprise factor because any experienced player will know that it will almost always come out first.

 

[False Sense]

Actually, Zoroark is a pretty obvious pokemon in terms of playstyle. It is almost always used as a lead and most dedicated leads can counter Zoroark pretty well. Zoroark also has huge problems like being very frail which is even worse because it takes damage from all types of entry hazards. It also does not have perfect coverage and its movepool is not expansive enough to hit enough of the metagame. Dark is not a very good type as well for a pokemon in OU because of Scizor, which is #1 in OU usage and takes a lot of damage from U-Turn, which is extremely common. Zoroark is mostly just a surprise lead and with team preview, it loses a lot of its surprise factor because any experienced player will know that it will almost always come out first.

While I still stand by Zoroark being C-Rank, I somewhat disagree with this statement. From my experience, Zoroark isn't used as a lead, probably because most people (much like you) expect it. It's usually better saved until a certain point where it can properly pull off a deception and get an Illusion Kill, potentially altering the course of the match. Also, Zoroark has Dark/Fighting coverage; that IS basically perfect coverage. Add Flamethrower to that too. Actually, Flamethrower lets it roast Scizor that get fooled into not using Bullet Punch.

Just wanted to get that out there, but Zoroark doesn't really have some of the problems you presented.

 

[Lavos]

zoroark should stay c rank for every reason gatodelfuego stated + dear god it is so frail. i think cb sciz bp after rocks can even ohko it ~_~

 

[Eleman]

Back to Zoroark, I know for a fact that it is used more as a lead than a surprise revenger. I see it in so many battles now that I almost always expect it to come out first unless there is a better lead. I forgot to add this but Zoroark has a good, but just short of a speed stat. It fails to outspeed the most threatening pokemon in the tier. It is also too frail. Zoroark is what I think to be somewhat of a gimmick. It uses mind games to get a kill in a match, but I honestly don't think that it is a reliable pokemon for the niche it has in this metagame. Oh, btw I agree for C-Rank.

 

[Tressed]

I really think that Zoroark's main use is not being used. You can thoroughly mindfuck someone if they see Zoroark in Team Preview, because it could be just about anything on your team, and they'll have to keep guessing every time you switch, assuming of course that it isn't obvious its not Zoroark (hazards damage, getting hit on the switch). That kind of thinking can wear down an opponent pretty badly.
Beyond that, Zoroark can't do much that isn't outclassed. NP is awful with such low speed (well, you certainly won't be sweeping any offensive teams), and Swords Dance lacks power (105 attack isn't much in this meta). Choiced sets are okay, but there are superior options. The all out attacker set is the only one that isn't better done by anything else, but it still requires a bit of support to work at its full potential.

 

[Magcargo]

Zoroark is already C-rank, so it cannot be added.
EDIT: Also, keldeo should be low S-rank because it is rain dependent and has many hard counters.

 

[butterfingers158]

EDIT: Also, keldeo should be low S-rank because it is rain dependent and has many hard counters.

It isn't rain dependent at all. In fact one of its best partners is Tyranitar since almost all of Keldeo's counters can be pursuit trapped.

 

[moonbase]

It isn't rain dependent at all. In fact one of its best partners is Tyranitar since almost all of Keldeo's counters can be pursuit trapped.

I believe he means to say that weather can help(rain) or hurt(SUN) keldeo, rather than the other S tier pokes that either summon their own weather (politoed) or do not care about what weather they are in (terrakion, special lando) my point on this is that keldeo is good because it gets the added bonus of rain that cancels out with the detriment to it being sun. The same thing can be said for physical variants of landorus, but no weather technically quote on quote hurts it.

 

[Smilodon]

I find the D-rank for Donphan really strange while you consider the recently new C-rank monster. Yes, Donphan has flaws, but he's still a decent choice in OU if you need a spinner with good bulk, the useful rock type resist and the ability sturdy to be sure he'll be able to spin if he's smartly switched in (1 turn of leftovers cancels SR damage) and there is no full health ghost in the opponent's team. And ice shard is still interesting, even if it doesn't OKO anything.

I really love Durant and Cobalion, and Shaymin and Virizion are cool too, but they're almost never seen in a rather competitive OU team (except if the challenge is precisely to use them). Donphan shouldn't be one rank under those ones.

I also think that Golurk is really easier to fit in a team than many C-rank pokemon, his unique niche of being a spinblocker while using SR, paired with nice abilities, correct bulk and good attack make him a decent choice sometimes. Ah, and being one of the only check to every Terrakion set is an interesting bonus.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

It has been gone over several times why donphan is in C-rank. It has severe 4MSS and tries to do far more than it can handle. It's outclassed as a defensive spinner sort of by hitmontop, an offensive one by starmie (as if you were ever using donphan for offense), it compounds the sun teams it's normally found on's weaknesses, and ice shard is just not strong enough to take out anything nowadays.

Also, switching in and getting leftovers cancels out SR damage, but good luck having the opponent just sitting there while you switch in.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Yeah I agree with mamo for A-rank. Nice resistances with thick fat with his amazing power are awesome. On top of that he's really popular right now due to being pretty much the best way of dealing with landorus. Dcae said it better.

 

[Hemp Man]

I'd like to nominate Mamoswine to be moved up to A-rank. Mamoswine is THE anti-meta pokemon, and sports excellent STAB that hits so much of the tier hard. Using Ice Shard, it can deal with the multitude of dragons in OU, and Earthquake allows it to massacre other pokemon resistant to Ice. It can also use Icicle Spear to break subs or Multiscale, always useful, and has pretty nice bulk. With its high attack, it can run multiple sets such as the Focus Sash lead set with Endeavor and Rocks, or a mid-game hitter LO set. With a great ability in Thick Fat, it is resistant to Ice and Fire, and is also one of the only Ice pokemon with neutral weakness to SR. Overall, Mamoswine is such a threatening pokemon that takes apart so many offensive teams, I think it should be considered for A-rank.

Actually is only neutral to Fire, not resisting it.

 

[False Sense]

Yeah, I agree with Mamoswine going to A-Rank. So many teams are dismantled by it's coverage and power, it's sad. Not to mention, it's priority is famous for being the bane of all set up Dragons. Seriously, those nasty powerful STAB Ice attacks are really devastating, even more so when you consider how many common pokemon are hit hard by them. Doesn't help that the things that normally will be switching into it's Earthquakes, Flying-types and Levitators, are usually hit super effectively by it's Ice attacks. On top of that, it's one of the few pokemon to have a resistance to the Bolt Beam combo, courtesy of Thick Fat, which can sometimes make it more difficult to take out than it's meager defenses would suggest. All in all, Mamoswine is a really devastating pokemon in today's metagame and fully deserves to be A-Rank.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

Actually is only neutral to Fire, not resisting it.

Thick Fat reduces the damage of Fire-type moves by 50%, so although Mamoswine's Ground/Ice typing itself is neutral to Fire, its ability causes it to take only half damage from Fire, which essentially is the same thing, mathematically, as resisting it. Same for Ice attacks against Mamoswine.

 

[Halcyon.]

Thick Fat reduces the damage of Fire-type moves by 50%, so although Mamoswine's Ground/Ice typing itself is neutral to Fire, its ability causes it to take only half damage from Fire, which essentially is the same thing, mathematically, as resisting it. Same for Ice attacks against Mamoswine.

Ground doesn't resist Fire. So Fire is naturally super effective on Mamoswine, but Thick Fat makes it neutral.

 

[Pikachuu]

Mamoswine is good but it isn't A rank material imo yeah it can revenge kill Dragons and/or anything weak to ice. I feel it's walled way too easily. Rotom-W, Bulky waters, Skarmory, Bronzong, Forretress etc. It's only real niche is revenge killing ice weak Pokemon and setting up Stealth Rock really. It also has bad defensive typing and kind of bad defenses. Not to mention it can't revenge a bunch of sweepers not weak to ice like Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Terrakion, Lucario, the list goes on. It has a lot of competition for a teamslot. It also has the same problem as Dolphan trying to do too much at once. If he is using the Endeavor set most likely he won't be able to revenge something like Landorus later in the match.