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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    The thing is, its pretty obvious to most of us that Reunicles isn't A tier, this can be seen easily by its slipping usage. Pretty much every team these days has Jirachi, Genesect, Tyranitar, or Scizor. Even if they don't have them, they almost always have a strong offensive pokemon to break through it like Haxorus or at the very least a few pokemon to pick it off. Even stall teams usually carry roar Latias or a perish song pokemon to make sure it doesn't boost to much. TR reunicles can't even touch stall.

    Yes reunicles is an underused pokemon that probably deserves move usage, but top tier? This isn't the BW1 metagame, it isn't top dog anymore.
  2. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Actually, Kyurem-Black has Base 120 Special Attack which comes just shy of Kyurem's 130 but just powerful enough to make the difference not too noticeable unless you're just throwing around Blizzards and Draco Meteors. What's more is Kyurem-Black's Physical Defense is 10 points higher than Kyurem's. The two forms are interchangeable with Kyurem's current on-site sets except for one thing: Teravolt.

    Earth Power hits Levitating Pokemon, HP Fire will hit Heatran and break its Air Balloon, and Thick Fat (looking at you Mamoswine) will be nullified. It also has BoltBeam if you need it.

    The final nail in Kyurem's coffin is that Special Attacking Kyurem-Black is the Spanish Inquisition of Pokemon. You're not going to send in your Blissey on a Kyurem-Black; Heatran, maybe, but until you know all 4 of Kyurem-Black's moves, no one wants to send in their Special Walls on it.

    The two things Kyurem does better than Kyurem-Black is PP stall with Pressure and throw out Blizzards/Draco Meteors. But even then you have to decided if PP stalling or the 10 Base Points are worth giving up all of those perks.

    Edit: Teravolt also breaks through Multiscale and disables Contrary. Forgot about that.
  3. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i'm not really sure what tier dnite should be put in, but its g-weakness is a big flaw, since even +1 dnite is easily checked by sect once scales are down. not sure if that's such a crippling factor that it should be dropped a tier, but setting up with dnite, and turning that setup into a sweep, is definitely not easy business right now
  4. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    So, I've been doing some thinking, and Genesect's ubiquitous U-turn spamming makes me think that it's a better idea to default most Pokémon to give him a SpecAtk boost, assuming you're not completely undermining said Pokémon or they're a set-up sweeper like Dragonite or Breloom or something.

    I know what everyone has been saying about no good player is just going to sit there spamming U-turn, but those very same good players are going to be picky as hell when they want to lock Genesect into something that could be used for set-up fodder, and honestly? Genesect is THE got-to revenge killer and his coverage moves are really only for revenging.

    Thoughts?
  5. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Well, lets see. To sweep, you have to remove.
    -Genesect
    -Stealth Rock (or it breaks Multiscale)
    -Priority (Mostly Ice Shard)

    Anything else I'm missing?
  6. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Strong physical walls such as Skarmory and Hippowdon that can force you out and set up hazards after the fact.
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Oh yeah, Hipowdon's Sandstream is going to be a nusince if Dragonite isn't packing Leftovers either.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Lol at people saying Lucario in C tier, seems they have never seen Lucario in a serious offensive team. It is solid B tier, and a case could be made for A tier too, but i don't want to argue about that right now... But Lucario should stay in B tier, because he is a very good endgame sweeper that only requires a bit of support to work.

    Also i get that you like Jolteon PK, and that you think it is B tier, but most of the people here put it in C tier, so i think it would be fair to put it in C tier.
  9. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    No disables Contrary in the full sense of the word, only if the user of Teravolt uses something like Screech or Metal Sound, the drop would be -2 anyways, so in the most part the ability would be 99% irrelevant(barring something like Shadow Ball drops or something like that in future mons with Mold Breaker or its clones)

    I haven't tested it, but sounds like it should work in this manner.
  10. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    Supporting that Lucario should stay in B-Tier. While most of the new BW2 threats are a nuisance to Lucario due to their bulk that allows most of them to survive +2 E-Speed without some prior damage, there is still almost nothing that can switch-in without risking to get KOd, very few offensive pokemon are able to take a CC followed by an Extreme Speed and defensive teams have to figure out the coverage move to wal him after he got a SD boost.
    Its typing is one of the best in the game and allows him to take some hits despite being frail as shit. He also needs almost no support to function well since SR is basically everything he needs, although a little Spikes or Pursuit support allows him to really shine. Being able to work in any given weather is also a huge plus. It might be only low B-Tier, but Extreme Speed + SD is something every physical sweeper would kill for and for a good reason.

    I am also with Princess Bri that Kyurem should go to B-Tier for the reason he mentioned. it is excellent against many of the new threats introduced in BW2 and got a lot of cool moves from BW2 Tutors too, after having played some matches with it i have really seen how dangerous it can be if played correctly and i also don't think that it needs Hail support that much sure being able to spam Blizzard is nice, but Ice Beam is often sufficient especially when there are almost no Stall Teams anymore.

    Reuniclus also should stay in B-Tier, the last time i have played the CM set was propably when people wanted to ban it and with good reason it got only worse over the time due to the issues Scarfwynaurt already brought up. The TR set however is absolutely fantastic in the current metagame with SR support the only thing most HO teams is switching around until TR ends and hope that you don't get outpredicted, SDef Jirachi is the only common counter and isn't to hard to work around.

    Edit: on the Contrary vs. Mold Breaker issue i am not 100% certain, but Mold Breaker only nullifies the abilities that protect a user from taking damage or an effect taking place, however since the effect does still happen (it just gets reversed) i am not sure if Mold breaker would do anything in this case.
  11. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Since we've included Xatu, a non-OU Pokemon in this list, I'd like to propose Cresselia for C tier. Things keeping it from A/B viability are its reliance on sun and poor defensive typing, but what it does have going for it is the ability to single handedly wall/check over half the metagame on its incredible defenses alone. It can also be a suprising offensive threat with CM.
  12. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    =====
    Update
    =====

    Kyurem added to B-tier
    Cresselia added to C-tier



    ---
    Discussion of the day:
    So alkinesthetase raises an interesting point. Is Dragonite even A-tier? If this were BW1 I wouldn't have a problem placing it in S-tier, but its bread and butter sets are really vulnerable to Genesect. Luckily its SpD stat higher than its Def stat, but even then 0+ Ice Beam does a ton to MS Dragonite, and flat out OHKOes if its inactive. I barely even seen Dragonite on the ladder, and if I do its usually running a Choice Band set or even a Yache Berry set. Do you think it should be moved down to B-tier?

    PS: Not going to touch Kyurem-B unless it gets unbanned.
  13. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I don't think Dragonite should be moved to B-tier. If anything, Genesect may have tamed its dominance since BW1, though I think 'Nite is definitely still a threat to watch out for. It can still utilise its bulk which gives it a niche over other dragons like Salamence/Haxorus, and is still capable of tearing teams apart when played well. Remember that Genesect is easily worn with hazards, so Dragonite can sweep when Genesect has been sufficiently weakened. Most players tend to also play pretty recklessly with Genesect, so putting a Fire move and/or Thunder Wave on something that lures it in is a very effective way of checking it.

    On a side note: I think this list would be more useful to new players if there was a short sentence or two justifying the Pokemon's position in a particular sub-tier.
  14. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    We should probably hold off on adding details like that until the list is agreed to be finished in my opinion. There are probably a few pokemon that need to be discussed to be added on perhaps (barely not OU mons like Amoonguss, Slowbro, Mew, Victini, Bronzong, Stoutland, and Darmanitan), and not to mention BL pokemon that pretty much should get an auto-placement, even if terrible.
  15. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    The only good reason I see for putting Dragonite in the B-tier is because of the support it needs (RS and no sand/hail. The latter is arguably not a "necessity" since rain and sun are the most common weathers); but getting it in when SR is not down means it gets a free turn to do whatever it wants. That, on top of being incredibly versatile, great stat distribution (except for 80 speed, that sucks) and a huge movepool.

    IMHO it should be a solid A-tier.
  16. flea

    flea

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    Dragon Dance Dragonite might be a B-tier pokemon, but Dragonite as a whole is certainly good enough to stay in A imho. There are a lot of other threatening things you can do with it than just DD up. The Rain Tank Dragonite, the parashuffle set with Roost/Dragon Tail/Substitute/T-Wave, there's a lot more it can do than just get revenged at +1 by genesect. Also, predicted Genesect Switch in+ sub or fire punch or fire blast = ko. Its main set may have lost some effectiveness, but I think Dragonite is far too powerful, has way too good of an ability, and is just way too versatile to reside in the same tier as pokemon that are more predictable and less powerful like Jolteon and Lucario.
  17. Fifth

    Fifth

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    Pretty much agree with leaving Dragonite in A-Tier. His versitality is top-notch and enables him to effectively perform various roles that range from Parashuffler to Revenge-killer, plus Multiscale is a undeniably huge boon for Dragonite that affords him more chances to set-up and adds a more-than-welcome coating of protection that bolsters his defenses. In fact, Dragonite actually fits the description for A-Tier 'Mons:

    Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

    Dragonite can sweep significant portions of the metagame, his movepool alone testifies to that. Dragonite does require support primarily in the form of Rapid Spin / Magic Bounce to keep Stealth Rock from breaking Multiscale (and keeping that hefty 25% damage at bay) and alternate weather inducers to remove Sand / Hail from the field, among other things. Dragonite's flaws are also pretty hindering: x4 weakness to Ice, x2 weakness to the ubiquitous SR, susceptible to faster 'Mons that can revenge-kill with ease, notably Scarf Salamence, Scarf Genesect, etc., falls to Ice Shard (but so does every other Dragon that shares the x4 Ice Weakness), and so on. All these limit Dragonite's opportunities at sweeping and his chances of consistently doing so in battles. However, many of these are readily patched with proper team support and even by the metagame itself (an abundance of Rain and Sun easily overshadows the amount of Sand and Hail one will encounter). Too many foibles for S-Tier, but too many selling-points for B-Tier. It's quintessential (or close enough to quintessential) A-Tier.
  18. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    The issue with Lucario is its terribly frail, made worse by the fact that it uses close combat, the thing can be checked by bullet punch from Scizor with a little damage before. This frailty makes it incredibly hard to set up, and it has little no no viability as a hit and run pokemon, unlike dragons.

    Its a solid pokemon, but general, its frailty and bad typing makes it a burden in team building, unlike other A and S tier pokemon.
  19. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I don't understand how Lucario is even remotely burdensome in team building, and I used it a lot in BW1 and BW2 and did its current analysis for crying out loud. If anything, I think having Pokemon such as Politoed on my team would be more burdensome than having Lucario on my team.

    First off, Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch is doing 45% maximum to Lucario. Lucario needs to have gone for Close Combat twice in order for Bullet Punch to even have a chance to OHKO Lucario anyway. Not to mention that Scizor usage is plummeting at the moment and Scizor is easily counterable.

    Also, the "it has little to no viability as a hit and run Pokemon" comment is, in my honest opinion, bullshit. For example, instead of Swords Dancing as a Genesect switches in after predicting said Swords Dance, why not instead go for Close Combat and always OHKO Genesect after Stealth Rock? I've done things in similar scenarios multiple times. It is perfectly fine to attack with Lucario without going for Swords Dance, and in fact, with Justified, I've actually been able to pull off full sweeps without using Swords Dance. And when setting up Swords Dance, Lucario's frailty is generally a non-issue as it has multiple (very common) resistances it can use to set up on, especially a 4x resistance to Dark-type moves such as Pursuit. I have had no trouble setting up with Lucario, ever.
  20. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Bad tipying? Lucario actually has a pretty good defensive tipying. The problem is that such frailty doesn't let Lucario take advantage of this tipying.

    The problem is that with such frailty, middling speed, and reliance on ES and Stealth Rock to sweep, Lucario only suceeds as a late-game sweeper... Lucario is actually ridiculously powerful, but trying to sweep with faster healthy threats waiting on your opponent's team is not the best of the ideas. Solid B-Tier.
  21. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Lucario is mad strong, but it's not a huge threat to the metagame right now because of two factors: a) it's incredibly difficult to set up in such a fast-paced offensive metagame, and b) Genesect is everywhere, which resists both of Lucario's priority moves and can easily outspeed and OHKO with Flamethrower. LucaroarkZ, you claim that Lucario can just CC Genesect on the switch-in, but come on - if a team is truly Lucario weak, the opponent isn't going to blindly hard switch their only answer in on what could very well be an instant OHKO. That would be beyond stupid.

    Keep Lucario where it is, B Tier describes it perfectly.
  22. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Lavos, I don't want to turn this thread into an argument, but I merely said Lucario could Close Combat a Genesect on the switch. It's a possibility. I'm just saying, I've done it, especially in scenarios where, say, you're not going to keep in that Pokemon choice-locked into a move that Lucario resists where Luke can OHKO you with a move Genesect resists, are you? That would be beyond stupid.
  23. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Actually, yes, I'd consider that possibility if it was evident that the switch on my part would be extremely obvious and I was liable to get a big Close Combat right in my Genesect's face, especially if Genesect was my last remaining check to Lucario. I don't think that's beyond stupid, it's just a matter of prediction. If whatever move I'm locked into is going to be doing over a third to Lucario, I'll probably stay in and test the waters. I think I can speak for most quality players when I say they'd likely do the same.
  24. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I think that switching pokémons when the opposing Lucario has +2 boost is an stupid idea. Unless your pokémon resists Extremespeed and you are really sure that Lucario is going to use this, Lucario is going to hit you with Close Combat or Extremespeed on the switch, to the point that (the second) Extremespeed will OHKO your pokémon. I know this, I've dealt with many Lucarios, and sometimes the best way to deal with Lucario is to sacrifice one of your pokémon, so that you can safely switch one that can take a boosted Extremespeed and retaliate.
  25. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Dark Fallen Angel, we are talking about switching *blank* into an unboosted Lucario, not a +2 Lucario.
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