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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Spirit

    Spirit
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    Mention the other things it beats please. We're not arguing on tangents anymore. Breloom can fit SE in place of Bullet Seed and still have decent affect. Now before you start coming up with a paragraph on breloom, talk about what else besides the two pokemon listed can amoongus wall 100% of the time.

    All of those pokemon(minus keldeo, landorus, and thunderus-t) have psyshock(which are common moves on them LOL), which break through amoongus in two hits, latis can get it in one actually. LOL you just proved my point all those pokemon can break past amoongus by either giving it a 1HKo or 2HKo. As I said a million times before, Specs Keldeo in the Rain 2HKO's amoongus after rocks and +2 LO HP Ice thunderus-t OHKo's after rocks. So no, still wrong. :)
  2. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    Yeah, I'm moving on. Let's talk Tyranitar, cause I think that has some potential to start a real discussion. I'm not quite sure if it has the potential to be S rank. On the one hand, he is an absolute staple in BW, and his ability to Pursuit trap things that wall Keldeo and Landorus is unbelievably helpful and influential. But it also has a big weakness to fighting, low speed, and there aren't as many sand abusers as there used to be (Excadrill). That being said, Tyranitar can now run bulky sets because Deo-D is gone, and Scarf sets now that Tornadus-T is gone, so he has some versatility. Not really sure, but I think he's more A rank. I'm not opposed to S rank, though.
    The Jaiho likes this.
  3. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I think Nidoqueen should be added to D-rank because it is one of the only things that shuts down CB Terrakion locked into either of its STABs and is a decent Special Attacker with excellent coverage to boot. Scrafty I don't think should be added, it's nothing like what it was last year in BW1, and since it is so outclassed and outsped it really can't pull its weight anymore. I like the beast, and he is a top threat in UU, but the juggernauts of OU smash it to bits.

    Any other opinions on Tyranitar? This pointless is argument is invading the thread, my reasons laid out for Tyranitar are in my previous post.
  4. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    I just said:
    "OH WOW AN OHKO. Yeah well Amoonguss is Specially Oriented so their goes that argument. *If you seriously try to argue that Amoongus gets KO'd from taking a hit on his weaker Physical Side, I actually might just have to shut you up.*"

    omg. unless the battler is retarded and uses Amoonguss as a wall against Latios Latias with Psyshock, which is super-effective and hits his weaker physical defense then kudos to you.

    Did I not just show he can tank Draco Meteors, Hydro Pumps and Earth Powers? Does not invalidate your argument about how Amoonguss gets OHKO/2HKO by every Special Attacker's STAB?
  5. False Sense

    False Sense

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    On a non-Amoongus related topic, I could see Nidoqueen maybe even being C-Rank. It does shut down Terrakion, after all, and actually can hit pretty hard thanks to Sheer Force. Plus it absorbs Toxic Spikes. Just saying that it does have some potential in OU. I ca still fully understand D-Rank though.
  6. lokt

    lokt

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    Honestly, if you are using amoongus to hard counter everything you are not using it right. It is an amazing pivot on balanced teams because it fairs well against all types of teams by gaining momentum for your team. Spore means that one pokemon is pretty much dead. Amoonguss can be used to pivot against choiced attackers such as terrakion(after you know it's choiced), Jolteon, Thundurus, Rotom-w, Magnezone, Keldeo, and Specs toad. It also happens to be able to counter common sets of some of the most dangerous pokes in the game(keldeo, thundurus,Breloom). Amoongus is also really effective vs balanced teams by sleeping a wall and double switching to a strong attacker. I don't get why you think everything needs to be hard countered.
  7. Spirit

    Spirit
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    You were dodging the main point and know it. Almost every other special attacker has a SE stab and if it doesn't it gets at the very least a 2HKO. My point still stands, and you just proved it for me. Amoongus is C-rank end of discussion.

    Yeah, but 2HKo'd by almost everything ain't so great.
  8. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Let me hit that ride with False and Halcyon. I'm done.
    I lost my cool and I apologize but a man can only take it so far.
    Nothing we do will shift that mindset of yours

    Nidoqueen though does have its niche. A small one but viable enough. However, what I'm worried about is that if this trend continues we just might through every single UU Pokemon into this thread. Choose carefully guys haha
    I'm willing to support Nidoqueen for C-Rank though :]
  9. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Nidoqueen is worth D-Rank, imo. As far as Toxic Spikers go, she's basically the best offensive one, or at least the one with the most presence. LO Sheer Force boosted attacks hurt quite a bit, and Nidoqueen gets quite decent coverage moves to go with Earth Power. Its fairly bulky, too, which is nice because it can switch into Terrakion once or twice if it needs to, thanks to its typing. Of course Toxic Spikes aren't that great in this meta, but if you need them, Nidoqueen is a solid choice.
    EDIT: Oh, we're pushing Nidoqueen to C-Rank, now? I'm alright with that, its pretty good. Wouldn't push it much further, though. Toxic Spikes are pretty limited right now.

    Scrafty is worth D, too. Its got Dragon Dance, bulk, an ability that reduces the effects of status, great STABs, all of which are things that most sweepers would kill for. Offenses are pretty bad, though, which means it does need multiple boosts to pose a threat. Its viable, but I'm not too certain why you'd use it when stuff like Terrakion and Breloom exist.

    Finally, about Amoongus. Seriously, how long has this damn discussion gone? Two pages? Enough about it already. I don't give a crap where it goes, so long as the decision is final and we move on. I'm not getting into this.
  10. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Scrafty deserves D-rank because of that. It has the potential to sweep teams, but usually falls up short and fails in the process. Often it will be more trouble than it is worth because of its low speed and common weaknesses. If he DOES manage to setup, teams could be potentioally shreaded apart by his unresisted coverage moves. He also makes a good ttar check because of tyranitar's inability to hit him with anything bar super power and the odd focus blast.

    And I'm happy that people are agreeing with my nominations for nidoqueen and scrafty. ;)
  11. lokt

    lokt

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    You ignored basically my whole argument. Is beating some of the most dangerous threats in the game, having practically an ohko move, and provided a massive amount of momentum not good enough for you? Yeah, every wall is beaten by a huge amount of mons that it can't wall. You just don't switch in to them. Use teammates. Amoongus is simple. You switch in when you can, spore something, and switch out.
  12. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I didn't say your name, and I wasn't trying to discredit you. Don't assume, I was just giving a heads up to other players who theorymon it because of its RU status and somewhat lackluster stats compared to other OU Pokemon. I myself also have a lot of experience with Amoonguss, and I find it really hard to believe that you don't seem to see it in the same light as I do. It's not AMAZING, and it's not Celebi. That's why it's in B-Rank. There are a lot of Pokemon in B-Rank that have just as many flaws as Amoonguss, so I don't feel that Amoonguss should drop a tier because of them. Overall, I think that Amoonguss is one of the better walls in the meta game, especially with Rain and Fighting types being so common. I agree that C-Tier would be fit for it if Drizzle was possibly banned, however Amoonguss is really helpful in this Rain infested meta game. Although Celebi does out class it in some forms, they're almost incomparable. They're completely different.
  13. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Nidoqueen definitely struggles a bit in this metagame. However, my only argument for not dropping her to D-Rank is because of her ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, lay Stealth Rocks and Toxic Spikes, and also has Sheer Force. Sheer Force really amps up her attack and so that Ferrothorn can't just walk in thinking it can freely set hazards. However, if you can disprove that argument then D-Rank it goes :]
    Otherwise I feel like C-Rank is pretty good ;]

    Scarfty isn't too bad actually thanks to Tornadus-T and Genesect being gone. However, Scrafty is of the Bulky Boosting age and that era of playstyle is kinda long gone. Still viable but kinda hard to do. DD is nice with Moxie and perfect coverage; however being slow really sucks. TBH if anything Scarfty's DD set is the only C-Rank worthy set. His BU set is D-Rank no question lol
  14. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    I'm going to stop this calculation crap once and for all. I'm using the only set noted for Amoonguss for the smogon OU analysis. All attackers sets are going to be the EV spread of the top set on Smogon's site. All attackers are going to be the prominent special attackers, because that's what this all seems to be based around. This is all "standard", so there's no more arguments about that. All are going to use the only reasonable move to use against Amoonguss based off the set on-site. Any slashed moves are the first one listed. My calculator was acting up, so all these calcs aren't including Black Sludge recovery. All calcs also ignore Giga Drain possibility.
    S Tier:
    Show Hide
    252SpAtk Keldeo (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 30% - 35% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    Hidden Power Ice does the most out of all 4 moves listed on the Scarf set.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Politoed (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 52% - 61% (226 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Assuming Sleep Clause isn't in effect and you didn't switch in, you can Spore, cripple it, Giga Drain to get health back, and switch out to get more health if you need. Only a check, but it works.


    A Tier:
    Show Hide
    0SpAtk Heatran (Neutral) Lava Plume vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 43% - 50% (186 - 218 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    The standard Heatran can't 2HKO with Lava Plume without Flash Fire boost, for god's sake. Spore cripples it and Toxic doesn't do anything to Amoonguss.

    4SpAtk +2 Latias (Neutral) Dragon Pulse vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 41% - 48% (178 - 211 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    A plus two CM Latias doesn't even OHKO with it's Dragon Pulse.
    Dragon Pulse is the only suggested move to use, if you want psyshock here you go:

    4SpAtk +2 Latias (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 79% - 94% (344 - 408 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    +2 Once again isn't an OHKO. Solid check.

    252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fire) vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 30% - 35% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 56% - 66% (242 - 288 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Even though trick is generally a better choice, I added psyshock for validity. Nice check against Psyshock assuming you don't switch in, Solid Check against non-psyshock variants, could even be considered a Counter. Assuming my math is right, Draco Meteor would be a 4HKO, getting on par with HP Fire. That's not counting Giga Drain and Black Sludge Recovery.

    0SpAtk Ninetales (Neutral) Flamethrower in Sun vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 50% - 59% (218 - 258 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge.

    56SpAtk Rotom (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 24% - 28% (104 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
    Good luck.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Starmie (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 43% - 52% (188 - 226 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    Psyshock isn't listed on standard at all, so I'm not doing it. Natural Cure helps here with Spore, but it still forces the switch out, which is what it should do. Starmie's out, Amoonguss wins.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus Therian (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/228SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (+SpDef): 42% - 50% (184 - 218 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    Coming off that base 145 SpA, Thundurus-T still fails to 2HKO with HP Ice. While it does resist Giga Drain, Spore is an option. +2 Not listed because it's gonna be asleep before it has the chance to get +2 and keep it. Spore and Clear Smog.


    I'm going to say this outright what I think- Amoonguss is a good Special wall. It's definitely good enough for B rank, most anything that counters is in the tier is a Steel type, another wall, or most physical attacking threats. No more needs to be said.
  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Dude, you can't have that EV spread at the same time. This will only give Icecream the chance to strengthen his case (not that it really was).
  16. lokt

    lokt

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    Homeslice, most of your calculations and explanations don't really matter. For example, after switching amoongus on specs politoed's ice beam, you know it's spec'd and switch to an ice resist. I don't even know why you have calcs for heatran, ninetales, or lati@s since you shouldn't be switching in on them. Latias also commonly carries sub, so amoongus is set up fodder.
  17. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Guys, let's pay attention to what ArticBlast said:
    "Also, let's keep Amoonguss where it is and stop trying to kill each other over a mushroom. Drugs are bad, kids."
    Either way Icecream lost this debate lol
    Amoonguss ain't movin' so just chill :D

    Let's discuss Scrafty for D-Rank!
  18. Spirit

    Spirit
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    True. Switching the evs was a poor argument on his part. It only does prove my point, lol.
  19. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about Scrafty. I LOOOOOVE it as a Pokémon, and I've used it in UU quite a bit, and it's great there. Problem is...I can't really see it being very effective (on paper, at least) in OU. Even with +2, I think Adamant ones are still out-sped by Choice Scarf Terrakion. Not sure, but I'm not going to explicitly appose adding it to D rank.
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  20. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Just like you did with Latias's EVs for my calcualtions. : D

    On the subject of Scrafty, D-Rank seems pretty good. It can be a pain to fight in certain situations, but it's fighting weakness and kind of awkward stats mean it's usually not too difficult to handle. D-Rank, probably, but maybe C-Rank if there are some good arguments.
  21. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I have mentioned before about how I don't care about Amoongus since I have never personally used him, and to an extent, thought that it dropping down to C-rank was no big deal. After reading this fucking mess of a thread, I decided to do some research. I wanted to see how many pokemon in all of OU could OHKO Amoongus, therefore derailing him his opportunity of putting something to sleep with Spore and completely taking out a poke for the remainder of the game.

    Here are the details: for starters, I went into this thinking that it should probably drop down to C-rank. I used the exact set on it's OU analysis since that is more than likely its best set for the tier. By multiplying the percentage of the item used and the move used to hit Amoongus is how I came up with the list since it would equal the chances of the pokemon using the move and item together at the same time. The cut off was about 1 in every six times the pokemon was used was how often it was able to OHKO Amoongus. Without further ado, here is my lengthy list of Pokemon that will always OHKO Amoongus with the right item and move:

    Alakazam (Life Orb+Psyshock)
    Latios (Choice Specs+Psyshock)
    Mamoswine (Life Orb+Icicle Crash)
    Haxorus (Choice Band+Outrage)
    Cloyster (White Herb+Icicle Spear)

    Now here is the list of pokemon that have a chance to OHKO Amoongus:
    Gyarados* (Leftovers+Bounce)
    Tyranitar (Choice Band+Stone Edge)

    And there you have it, the very long list of pokemon that fuck Amoongus up!

    As you can tell, I'm being sarcastic. I was shocked at how impenetrable of a special wall this shroom was. It cannot be OHKO'd by a move targeting it's special defense from an OU pokemon that is reasonably common. I put an asterisk next to Gyarados since Bounce would make Spore miss, but the shroom would switch out since it doesn't wanna risk getting killed from the first couple turns. Since no pokemon would be going to sleep, I would consider that a success for the team facing Amoongus. Pokemon like Infernape and Heatran were all over the damage calcs, but the moves used along with the choice of item AND the fact that all of them had a Blaze or Flash Fire boost, respectively, forced me not to consider them. Infernape's SD set was actually close to being viable.

    Most of you probably haven't been following since my presentation hasn't been favorable, but this is what I'm trying to say: If Amoongus leads against any OU special attacker that cannot hit it's physical side, it can Spore, switch out, and recover a third of its health after receiving whatever amount of damage it was.

    TL;DR-Amoongus is a lot better than I thought. It is a very good special wall that cannot be OHKO'd by a special attacker not named Alakazam or Latios. Therefore, if you lead with it, chances are you can Spore whatever pokemon the opposing player chooses to sacrifice. Keep it B-rank

    Edit: on the topic of Scrafty, I find it being in D-rank to be a good place to put it. Very good bulk, great STAB's, and abilities, and a good overall defensive typing. It needs to rely on it's DD set if it wants to do any sort of damage or sweep, so I think it hould be fine in D-rank.
  22. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

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    I agree about Tyranitar being S rank. It's a great Pokemon that can fit on pretty much any team that also happens to give you an answer to other weather. It's a huge threat no doubt, few can switch into it safely because it has a giant movepool, Ice beam, Fire Blast, Superpower you name it. I think Conkeldurr is the only 100% safe counter since it has Drain Punch to heal itself back. Tyranitar walls and can eliminate a lot in the tier with the Scarf of Band set. Celebi, Jellicent, Jolteon, Espeon, Starmie, Lati@s, Gengar etc. Infact I think Tyranitar is the reason why Excadrill got banned and why Landorus and Keldeo are seen as broken by some people because they are often paired up with Tyranitar which can remove their counters with ease. Tyranitar also has several viable sets. Scarf, Band, SpD, Focus Sash, Dragon Dance (not that good in this meta but it can take people by surprise and pretty good sweeper late game) Tyranitar is not without it's flaws however as it's quite easy to check though one must be careful if Tyranitar is scarfed. Also the 4x weakness to fighting blows this can be solved somewhat with Chople Berry but then Tyranitar can't hold something else like Leftovers. Tyranitar also has a whopping 6 weaknesses fighting, steel, bug, water, ground, grass but Tyranitar is pretty bulky 100/110/174 (in sand) defenses are amazing for a Pokemon that has a huge 134 base Attack. He can take non STAB U-turns with ease and the sand helps it tank water and grass moves which are most of the time special. Not to mention in the sand is almost like he resists electric,dragon and ice special moves. Tyranitar is so much better than Politoed imo. If Politoed is S-rank I don't see why Tyranitar can't. Drizzle is more useful as it powers up water moves, makes Thunder 100% accurate, Hurricane etc but let's not forget it halves the damage of fire type moves and that rain teams usually rely too much on Politoed to be effective. Sand teams don't have this problem. Also it's not like sand is totally useless if your opponent is not using weather as it raises the special defense of rock type Pokemon like Terrakion making it even harder to kill. Also sand hurts any non steel, rock or ground type every turn and negates Leftovers. Stoutland or Sandslash get their speed doubled in sandstorm. Being able to remove so many threats mainly the Lati twins and the fact that it can counter other weather by just switching in are the main reasons why I think Tyranitar is an S-rank Pokemon. You can't actually counter Tyranitar just like Gothitelle and Dugtrio because you can't stop it from trapping things.

    S rank:
    Tyranitar fits that really well.
  23. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Someone mentioned Wobbuffet for B-Tier a few pages back, and I want to agree, especially now that Custap Berry is out. Now you don't have to predict nearly as much as before to get a 1-1, even 2-1 against offensive teams. The ability to remove Choice users, and provide free turns for set-up sweepers or hazards setters while ensuring an almost guaranteed 1-1 is too good for C-Tier IMO.
  24. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Ok that's more than enough bickering about Amoonguss. Tsk tsk children, I expect better of you.

    Anyway, Tyranitar certainly does quite a lot, and I can see why people are arguing it for S-rank. Sand Stream is a very potent ability, not only having a host of benefits that make it useful on its own, but also helping check opposing weather. Tyranitar is really well-suited for supporting roles, whether as a Stealth Rock user or Pursuit trapper, and it's no slouch offensively. However, it has very notable flaws that prevent it from being S-Rank, in my opinion. The first and foremost is obviously that defensive typing. While Tyranitar's special bulk lets it get away with handling most of what it needs to, it is plagued by weaknesses to very very relevant offensive typings (Water, Fighting, Bug, and Ground being chief amongst them). Tyranitar can very often perform its roles, but after doing so it invites openings to things you don't want to give openings to, such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus formes, etc. Or you could just get sniped by Dugtrio. This is doubly problematic in that Tyranitar has a hard time being a supporter and providing an offensive threat at the same time. Stealth Rock and Scarf sets don't pack nearly the wallop of CB, making them more of a defensive liability. So while Tyranitar is an exceptional supporter, I feel that its very notable weaknesses hinder it enough to keep it in A-rank.
  25. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'll Throw in my two cents, I guess!

    Now regarding Scrafty, I'm a little torn. One thing's certain from my experience is that he definitely has the potential to sweep teams with DD, Moxie, and incredible coverage. Tornadus-T getting the can is a nice boon for Scrafty so he can breathe a little easier now. Either way, Scrafty does have pretty nice bulk, an alright albeit good Attack, and decent overall qualities. Being slow does suck though. I can see Scrafty as D-Rank or possibly even C-Rank, but one thing's certain: Scrafty is definitely viable in OU.

    On Nidoqueen, I can agree with its placement. It has a definite niche in OU; it's a solid check to Terrakion and also a decent special attacker with its movepool and Sheer force. Nidoqueen can also set up Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock. C or D, either is fine by me.

    Amoonguss and Ttar should stay where they are, I need not explain.

    Just my two cents.

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