Yeah, Baton Pass teams can be devastating at times, but a lot of things like Dragon Tail, Perish Song, and critical hits can be a real hassle for them. Still, they can work. Personally I could see Espeon and Xatu being B or C-Rank. Magic Bounce is still an incredible asset even with Deoxys-D gone, but one of their primary purposes was to counter it. Honestly, it could go either way.
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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Baton Pass is definitely viable. It does have a lot of problems with it and is far from a great or even good playstyle. However, being the centerpiece of an entire playstyle deserves something and that imo is what warrants a B Rank for Espeon. It also has Baton Pass+Magic Bounce which is an invaluable combination as it can function similar to Xatu's U-Turn while baiting Tyranitar's Pursuit letting you set up with dudes like Lucario. Any thoughts on Weavile for B-Rank?
252 Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 344-408 (106.17 - 125.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252Atk Jumpluff (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Keldeo (Neutral): 77% - 91% (252 - 296 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Jumpluff (Neutral) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Keldeo (Neutral): 70% - 83% (230 - 272 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Note that Jumpluff gets Swords Dance. Adamant Jumpluff has 458 Attack and 638 Speed after a Swords Dance and in the sun.
If you wanna know more about Jumpluff's strong capabilities, check out my RMTor my Analysis. Aside from checking Keldeo, Jumpluff is a really damn good cleaner. Jumpluff is a cleaner and is not meant to check threats unless you are using the Support set which lets you check threats while giving a lot of offensive momentum and set up opportunities. Here are some calcs for a taste of Jumpluff's power after an SD boost (it really needs the boost)
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 90.1 - 106.31%
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 77.34 - 91.4%
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 76.58 - 90.3%
If Alakazam is A-rank shouldn't Mew be A-rank as well? Unlike Alakazam Mew can take hits and has Nasty Plot, Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Rock Polish and more. Alakazam wishes it had all these moves. Mew has the second largest movepool in the game after Smeargle. Mew is very underrated imo. Alakazam might have Magic Guard which is an amazing ability by itself and better speed but Mew has the bulk and reliable recovery in Softboiled and Roost and boosting moves in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to more than make up for that also Mew gets Aura Sphere while Alakazam has to rely on Focus Miss. Mew can't be walled by anything. Jirachi loses to Fire Blast and if it tries to paralyze Mew it will get paralyzed too in return. Alakazam is easily walled by Jirachi as even Hidden Power Fire will do laughable damage to it, SpD Hippowdon, SpD Celebi, Chansey, SpD Skarmory can also take on it. I don't agree with Alakazam being A-rank but if it is I don't see why Mew wouldn't be A-rank.
Jumpluff also has the Speed to potentially sweep regardless of weather. Also, you are discounting the fact that Flying- is one of the best offensive types in the game-- and a lot better than Grass- or any other STAB type boasted by any other chlorophyl sweeper. Grass sux
Adamant Jumpluff has 458 Atk after an SD, and 638 Spe under sun, outspeeding every single Pokemon in OU, including Scarf and Chlorophyll users. This combined with Sleep Power, which equals to a KO, and Acrobatics' beautifull neutral coverage make Jumpluff a very potent sweeper against offensive teams.
I'm not seeing it. It's hella walled by Steels, namely Heatan, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory. Good luck not finding a team without one of these pokes. Weak to priority; Mamoswine obviously, Scizor after SR, even defensive Donphan is taking a huge chunk with Ice Shard, and offensive variants OHKO after rocks.
Frankly, Sawsbuck gets better coverage with Jump Kick/Nature Power, and hits WAY harder after +2. I can get behind the support set, but SD is just outclassed.
The Pokemon you mention are counters/checks, but for the Steel types Jumpluff will be on a Sun team that will carry Fire types with boosted Stab. Dugtrio is standard on Sun, so Heatran is easily taken care. Donphan sucks as a spinner and it's usage is low, but to the point Jumpluff is great with the right team support.
Sawsbuck doesn't have Sleep Powder, and this is the big difference. Jumpluff can always be useful in a game, even when walled, due to Sleep Powder. Also Sawbuck can't OHKO bulky Volcarona, a common threat for sun teams. And steel-types need to be weakened for Jumpluff to sweep, every sweeper needs some Pokemon weakened (some more and some less), this doesn't mean that it is outclassed. Listen, whether you see Jumpluf's niche or not as an SD user, it is there, as proved by certain players that have succesfully used it on their teams (ssbm, the unlucky one) and the fact that the QC team (me included) deemed it OU viable.
Lemme say this about the idea. Sawsbuck is a beast no doubt. Also, I pretty much agree with every single thing Alexwolf said. Sleep Powder is invaluable (75% of the time, fuck) and Jumpluff is a great cleaner for sun teams as it synergizes really damn well with Sun in general as it deals with Volcarona, Infernape, Landorus and Terrakion decently well which are threats to sun teams. Once again I feel my RMT shows off Jumpluff's capabilities and while a support set is viable, Leech Seed really sucks.
I think you are really underestimating how big a deal magic guard is. Psychic is a p terrible type defensively, rendering mew's bulk almost unusable given all the crunches, uturns, and pursuits flying around. Mew is generally outclassed in the lead spot by faster, harder-hitting stuff like chomp, terra, and even azelf etc. So mew is forced to go offensive to remain viable. We've seen the same thing happen with reuniclus, whose CM set has dwindled while its OTR one remains much more popular.
However, Alakazam is simply much better than mew in the offense department. While mew has a better movepool, alakazam has MUCH better speed and power, and coverage that, if not as finely tailorable as mew's, is perfectly sufficient for sweeping/attacking purposes. Psychic from alakazam just hits way way harder than from mew. And of course, alakazam has magic guard over mew, which either allows it to run a set that is far far more powerful than any of mew's without recoil, or to run the ultimate focus sash set, which is close to guaranteed a KO a game. Meanwhile, if mew wants to be any kind of offensive threat it needs to sacrifice bulk, meaning that its 2hko be p much everything...while alakazam is guaranteed a 2hko at worst while still hitting way harder. Sash alakazam is also hugely potent at high levels of play, as a mon that can revenge any threat no matter how many hazards are up or how many boosts they have can turn the tide of games. So mew is still decent but just doesnt fit well in this meta, while alakazam has a definite niche and advantage over mew.
Her flaws lie in poor recovery options, low defense stat, low speed, and 4MSS coverage. But this can be overlooked as she can single-handedly give everything commonly found on Rain a hard time except Jirachi and Tornadus.
So if we're willing to make Alakazam A-Rank, what do people think of A-Rank Reuniclus too?
Both Reuniclus and Alakazam are hard-hitting Psyhcic-types who are impervious to indirect damage, and both of them use largely the same moves (Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Other). Alakazam has a higher base Special Attack than Reuniclus, but Reuniclus' tend to run SpA boosting natures, which gives it the edge over Alakazam's who run Timid natures (which they should be).
But while Alakazam is a fantastic revenge-killer and all-around powerhouse, Reuniclus is just a total monster to offensive teams, which let's be honest here, compromise most of the metagame. Since the OU metagame has become a series of Pokemon desperately trying to one-up each other for more Speed, Reuniclus punishes that team focus with it's TR set (it's only good one), and proceeds to massacre everything. Seriously, I mean everything. Get a bit of prior damage on the opponents team, and there's nothing stopping Reuniclus from sweeping, bar an unfortunate Focus Blast miss (which Alakazam has to deal with as well).
Bland typing, predictability, and issues with SpD Jirachi aside aside, Reuniclus is here to ruin lives, and he does that job with admirable gusto. Reuniclus for A-Rank.
Both Reuniclus and Alakazam are hard-hitting Psyhcic-types who are impervious to indirect damage, and both of them use largely the same moves (Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Other). Alakazam has a higher base Special Attack than Reuniclus, but Reuniclus' tend to run SpA boosting natures, which gives it the edge over Alakazam's who run Timid natures (which they should be).
But while Alakazam is a fantastic revenge-killer and all-around powerhouse, Reuniclus is just a total monster to offensive teams, which let's be honest here, compromise most of the metagame. Since the OU metagame has become a series of Pokemon desperately trying to one-up each other for more Speed, Reuniclus punishes that team focus with it's TR set (it's only good one), and proceeds to massacre everything. Seriously, I mean everything. Get a bit of prior damage on the opponents team, and there's nothing stopping Reuniclus from sweeping, bar an unfortunate Focus Blast miss (which Alakazam has to deal with as well).
Bland typing, predictability, and issues with SpD Jirachi aside aside, Reuniclus is here to ruin lives, and he does that job with admirable gusto. Reuniclus for A-Rank.
I propose 3 things:
Nominating gengar for A-Rank
Gengar is the best spinblocker for hyper offensive teams. Thanks to his massive base 130 special attack and base 110 speed, he can hit both fast and hard. He also gets perfect coverage in two moves. His subdisable set is amazing since he can potentially ruin the sweep of Swords dance terrakion and some breloom. The subsplit set can disrupt blissey, chansey and to the lesser extent snorlax. Don't forget that he's the only offensive spinblocker in the tier. All in all, gengar deserves A-Rank due to his power, coverage and speed.
Agreeing with moving reuniclus up to A-rank.
Reuniclus is basically a slower bulkier alakazam. Thanks to his great bulk, reuniclus can live powerful attacks such as CS Salamence's outrage. His low speed can be turned around with trick room, meaning that only ferrothorn that run gyro ball can outspeed him in trick room. The twisted dimensions also allow reuniclus to beat most hyper offensive teams. Pokemon like scizor are stopped cold by HP fire, while ttar hates focus blast, meaning that only jirachi, metagross and bronzong can live 2 of his attacks. Apart from metagross, jirachi and bronzong can do absolutely nothing to him. Reuniclus's power, bulk and ability to beat hyper offensve teams give him a place in A-Rank.
Nominating gyarados for A-rank
Gyarados is an amazing pokemon thanks to his typing. A dual Water/Flying makes him the best offensive check to keldeo and special landorus. He has two great abilities in moxie and intimidate, meaning that he can either sweep teams after a couple of DDs or he can take the role of a bulky attacker, making use of his resistences. His main STAB, waterfall, has a good flinch rate and is boosted by rain, meaning that most foes that don't resist it will have a hard time coming in. Bounce, while unreliable, allows him to keep celebi and breloom in check, as they will be hard-pressed to tank 1 bounce. Gyarados's power, bulk, and typing easily reserve him a spot in A-rank.
Alright I need to make some huge counter-arguments against some of the propositions as I really disagree with some of them. First of all, Reuniclus for A Rank is a really bad idea. Reuinclus really doesn't hang with the top tier mons in the game. tbh I really think A-Rank is being WAYYY too broad now as A-Rank is pretty much considered the monsters of the meta while B-Rank are staples. Reuniclus doesn't hang together with them for a few reasons. First of all, it's only viable set is OTR. I hope I face no contention with this but CM Reuniclus is not a good idea at all anymore. Reuniclus does take a big shit on HO teams but even against those teams it would be a bit hard to set-up the TR. Reuniclus bulk is rather overrated imo as Psychic's shitty defensive typing really makes it hard for it to accomplish much without that TR boost as it would die to anything. Reuniclus also has problems when it comes to synergy. Reuniclus doesn't really offer any good support with any of the staple mons nowadays as TR would just harm them. This makes Reuniclus rather specialized in its role on either TR teams or other teams with rather specific support. Reuniclus just doesn't offer the offensive synergy that most other teams do. Another main problem is how it is f'd up by Rachi. Looking at the Tournament Usage stats, Jirachi is the no.1 pokemon used atm and really makes Reuniclus' life a lot harder. Reuniclus is a good mon and all but it really doesn't deserve to hang with the A-Rank mons (I honestly don't think Alakazam does either, but I'll let that pass) due to those flaws as it is a lot better on paper than in practice.
Next off there was a proposition for Roserade in B-Rank. iirc there was some discussion on this previously but I really don't think Roserade should be in B-rank. It's a rather niche mon and if you look at C-Rank's description, it talks about being eclipsed. Roserade is rather eclipsed by Celebi as it's main niche being Toxic Spikes and lack of a Pursuit weakness. However, it is hampered by pretty much being locked into a Specially Defensive variant as Offensive ones suck while it's Physical Defense is rather meh. Celebi just outperforms it a lot outside of Toxic Spikes which isn't even that great in the meta.
Lastly, am I the only person who thinks the A-Rank is being way too broad. A-Rank used to be rather specific but nowadays it's filled to the brim with many pokemon. Honestly I think the reason to this is that so much discussion is encouraged and some rather unnecessary changes start to be made and this list will nearly never stabilize. I think we should take a path similar to RU in order to stabilize tier changes now as it gives people a rather different focus.
Next off there was a proposition for Roserade in B-Rank. iirc there was some discussion on this previously but I really don't think Roserade should be in B-rank. It's a rather niche mon and if you look at C-Rank's description, it talks about being eclipsed. Roserade is rather eclipsed by Celebi as it's main niche being Toxic Spikes and lack of a Pursuit weakness. However, it is hampered by pretty much being locked into a Specially Defensive variant as Offensive ones suck while it's Physical Defense is rather meh. Celebi just outperforms it a lot outside of Toxic Spikes which isn't even that great in the meta.
Lastly, am I the only person who thinks the A-Rank is being way too broad. A-Rank used to be rather specific but nowadays it's filled to the brim with many pokemon. Honestly I think the reason to this is that so much discussion is encouraged and some rather unnecessary changes start to be made and this list will nearly never stabilize. I think we should take a path similar to RU in order to stabilize tier changes now as it gives people a rather different focus.
I'd hardly say Celebi outperforms Roserade. With the Toxic Spiker, they perform completely differently niches. Celebi can't even absorb Toxic Spikes. And Toxic Spikes aren't good in this meta? I hope you seriously re-consider that statement, as Toxic Spikes will always be relevant as long as the tier remains to be about weather wars. Sure, rain and sun both have Poison-types at their disposal, but if you plan your team around those Poison-types being present, it's hard for your opponent to get anywhere against you. Covering Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and Venusaur should always be kept in mind when you're running Roserade. Sure you can call that excessive support, but the amount of abuse you can put on your opponent for using the pokemon that you pre-meditated is not to be underestimated.
And those are pretty much the only viable Poison-types in OU besides Rosey herself, Amoonguss, and maybe Nidoqueen/Nidoking. When Poison-types aren't present, the weather war is massively be in your favor, as spinners can't switch into her, and most of them fail to spin under the pressure of being poisoned. Also gonna point out that three out of the four pokemon in S-rank loathe Toxic Spikes. And none of this weather war support is anywhere near the realm of Celebi's duties. Not to mention Celebi is all the way up in A-rank. Rosey is only asking for B-rank.
That's hyping up Toxic Spikes. The reality is that competitive teams usually have at least one of these:
1/2 of the team is immune to Toxic Spikes or have pokes that don't care at all about Toxic Spikes(Guts/ Regenerator/pokes that kill you or are gone before the TS can take effect)
Toxic Absorber - Sun and Rain have this covered.
Rapid Spin - Forretress is immune, Tentecruel absorbs them, and Starmie can spin, switch out, and Natural Cure takes care of the poison.
Magic Bounce - Xatu resists Leaf Storm too.
Also loath is too strong of a word, the only sets that are really hurt by it are defensive Politoed and (Sub)Calm Mind Keldeo. Sub Terra is mildly bothered by it, and every other set doesn't really care about TS.
1/2 of the team is immune to Toxic Spikes or have pokes that don't care at all about Toxic Spikes(Guts/ Regenerator/pokes that kill you or are gone before the TS can take effect)
Toxic Absorber - Sun and Rain have this covered.
Rapid Spin - Forretress is immune, Tentecruel absorbs them, and Starmie can spin, switch out, and Natural Cure takes care of the poison.
Magic Bounce - Xatu resists Leaf Storm too.
Also loath is too strong of a word, the only sets that are really hurt by it are defensive Politoed and (Sub)Calm Mind Keldeo. Sub Terra is mildly bothered by it, and every other set doesn't really care about TS.
Ojama
Banned deucer.
Celebi is better than Roserade without a doubt. Celebi gets Recover, has higher HP, better Defense and they almost have the same SDef (100 vs 105). Celebi has a ground resistance which Roserade doesn't have which means Roserade can't counter Landorus-I at all what Celebi is able to do if it doesn't run U-Turn. Toxic Spikes is obviously a real important Move and will always be but both Tentacruel and Venusaur are often used. Roserade can't even counter Keldeo since it is 2HKO'd by Secret Sword or IcyWind/HP Ice what Celebi is able to if Keldeo doesn't carry HP Bug. Also if you run Rest on Roserade that means you don't have either Sleep Powder or HP Fire which makes you more weak to Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor etc.
Celebi is definitely better than Roserade and I'm not even sure if Roserade should be B Rank.
Agreeing with moving Gengar up to A-Rank. Gengar is extremely good in the current Metagame and will always be an amazing Pokemon. The SubSplit Set is absolutely horrible to face and is really hard to take down. It is faster than Keldeo and Terrakion and it has a useful Fighting Immunity. It is also the best Spin Blocker in OU so yeah I really think it should be A-Rank.
Celebi is definitely better than Roserade and I'm not even sure if Roserade should be B Rank.
Agreeing with moving Gengar up to A-Rank. Gengar is extremely good in the current Metagame and will always be an amazing Pokemon. The SubSplit Set is absolutely horrible to face and is really hard to take down. It is faster than Keldeo and Terrakion and it has a useful Fighting Immunity. It is also the best Spin Blocker in OU so yeah I really think it should be A-Rank.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Gengar is A-rank for sure but I diasagree with it being the best spinblocker since Starmie outspeeds and easily OHKOs it with Psyshock or water STAB in the rain.
Jellicent is the premier spinblocker in OU.
Jellicent is the premier spinblocker in OU.
By Starmie using Thunder you are implying it will always be run on Rain teams. Which is not always the case, even so Specially Defensive Jellicent can take a Thunder and threaten to KO with Shadow Ball.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 198-234 (49 - 57.92%) -- 57.81% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 170-204 (65.13 - 78.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Considering Jellicent has leftovers, it would be extremely hard for it to be 2HKO. It is more likely the Jelly will take out Starmie first.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Almost no Starmie runs Thunder anymore most run Psyshock nowadays to more reliably check Keldeo (plus a second Stab is always great) and SDef Jellicent got a 89% chance to get 2HKOd by Psyshock after SR.
However i don't really think SDef Jellicent is very good it is just too frail on the physical side without significant EV investment wich cuts down the number of thinks it can check significantly.
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