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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
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    I kinda agree with the moving down of Xatu to C rank (and probably Espeon with it) now that Deoxys-D has been banned. He's still ok, but not nearly as useful now that tere aren't as many "Suicide Hazards Setter + 5 Sweepers" teams. Obviously Custap Skarmory/Forretress are being used more, but not as much as Deo-D was. The only real niche that Xatu has is on sun teams and as a perfect counter to Breloom (who runs Stone Edge these days?).
    Jaiho likes this.
  2. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    If xatu drops, espeon should too. I'm going to be honest here: Espeon was only B-rank since they could beat deoxys-d. Espeon is not a good support pokemon, or a good offensive pokemon because of how outclassed it is at both. Its offensively outclassed by latois, who has all around better stats and is defensively outclassed by xatu, who has U-turn and similar bulk. I personally think espeon is borderlining D-Rank, but I'm going a bit too far there.
  3. Spirit

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    That's wrong. Espeon is B-rank because of Baton Pass, it makes an entire strategy viable.
  4. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Baton pass isn't that viable tbh even with espeon since dragon tail can still get past it.
  5. Spirit

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    You've gotta be kidding me. Weak to pursuit doesn't mean shit, especially when BP can get past it. Then there's the fact that Dragon Tail can't get past subs, and after a few boosts, it won't be able to break any. Baton Pass is a very potent strategy, people hit the high ends of the ladder with it, you'd be naive to think otherwise.
  6. False Sense

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    Yeah, Baton Pass teams can be devastating at times, but a lot of things like Dragon Tail, Perish Song, and critical hits can be a real hassle for them. Still, they can work. Personally I could see Espeon and Xatu being B or C-Rank. Magic Bounce is still an incredible asset even with Deoxys-D gone, but one of their primary purposes was to counter it. Honestly, it could go either way.
  7. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Baton Pass is definitely viable. It does have a lot of problems with it and is far from a great or even good playstyle. However, being the centerpiece of an entire playstyle deserves something and that imo is what warrants a B Rank for Espeon. It also has Baton Pass+Magic Bounce which is an invaluable combination as it can function similar to Xatu's U-Turn while baiting Tyranitar's Pursuit letting you set up with dudes like Lucario. Any thoughts on Weavile for B-Rank?
  8. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    @Unlucky: Do you have any calcs of Jumpluff's Acrobatics against Keldeo? Personally I was convinced already offensive moves were not worth the trouble with him -it also forces you not to run leftovers, which diminishes your ability to check some threats-.
  9. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I've never seen Ttar Pursuit snow Espeon before since all of them have BP. Also, I am of the opinion Espeon stays B rank as well as Xatu. Espeon makes BP teams viable, and is a common dual screener for HO teams. Xatu is more defensive in nature but has screen access, is bulkier, can cripple stuff with T Wave, and has perfect typing to outright counter Bloom. Both of these are B rank worthy imo.
  10. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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    252 Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 344-408 (106.17 - 125.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252Atk Jumpluff (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Keldeo (Neutral): 77% - 91% (252 - 296 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Jumpluff (Neutral) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Keldeo (Neutral): 70% - 83% (230 - 272 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Note that Jumpluff gets Swords Dance. Adamant Jumpluff has 458 Attack and 638 Speed after a Swords Dance and in the sun.
  11. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    If you wanna know more about Jumpluff's strong capabilities, check out my RMTor my Analysis. Aside from checking Keldeo, Jumpluff is a really damn good cleaner. Jumpluff is a cleaner and is not meant to check threats unless you are using the Support set which lets you check threats while giving a lot of offensive momentum and set up opportunities. Here are some calcs for a taste of Jumpluff's power after an SD boost (it really needs the boost)

    +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 90.1 - 106.31%
    +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 77.34 - 91.4%
    +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 76.58 - 90.3%
  12. Wizarus

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    Why is Jumpluff using SD? I thought the niche was untouchable speed in the sun, with Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Sub, and Encore. There are plenty of other Sun sweepers that can use SD ALOT better than Jumpluff.
  13. Pikachuu

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    If Alakazam is A-rank shouldn't Mew be A-rank as well? Unlike Alakazam Mew can take hits and has Nasty Plot, Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Rock Polish and more. Alakazam wishes it had all these moves. Mew has the second largest movepool in the game after Smeargle. Mew is very underrated imo. Alakazam might have Magic Guard which is an amazing ability by itself and better speed but Mew has the bulk and reliable recovery in Softboiled and Roost and boosting moves in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to more than make up for that also Mew gets Aura Sphere while Alakazam has to rely on Focus Miss. Mew can't be walled by anything. Jirachi loses to Fire Blast and if it tries to paralyze Mew it will get paralyzed too in return. Alakazam is easily walled by Jirachi as even Hidden Power Fire will do laughable damage to it, SpD Hippowdon, SpD Celebi, Chansey, SpD Skarmory can also take on it. I don't agree with Alakazam being A-rank but if it is I don't see why Mew wouldn't be A-rank.
  14. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Jumpluff also has the Speed to potentially sweep regardless of weather. Also, you are discounting the fact that Flying- is one of the best offensive types in the game-- and a lot better than Grass- or any other STAB type boasted by any other chlorophyl sweeper. Grass sux
  15. Wizarus

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    Sweep? With 209 ATK, and 418 ATK at +2? Specs Hurricane from Tornadus is hitting harder than that. Choice Scarf Staraptor's BB is hitting harder than that.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Adamant Jumpluff has 458 Atk after an SD, and 638 Spe under sun, outspeeding every single Pokemon in OU, including Scarf and Chlorophyll users. This combined with Sleep Power, which equals to a KO, and Acrobatics' beautifull neutral coverage make Jumpluff a very potent sweeper against offensive teams.
  17. Wizarus

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    I'm not seeing it. It's hella walled by Steels, namely Heatan, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory. Good luck not finding a team without one of these pokes. Weak to priority; Mamoswine obviously, Scizor after SR, even defensive Donphan is taking a huge chunk with Ice Shard, and offensive variants OHKO after rocks.

    Frankly, Sawsbuck gets better coverage with Jump Kick/Nature Power, and hits WAY harder after +2. I can get behind the support set, but SD is just outclassed.
  18. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

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    The Pokemon you mention are counters/checks, but for the Steel types Jumpluff will be on a Sun team that will carry Fire types with boosted Stab. Dugtrio is standard on Sun, so Heatran is easily taken care. Donphan sucks as a spinner and it's usage is low, but to the point Jumpluff is great with the right team support.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Sawsbuck doesn't have Sleep Powder, and this is the big difference. Jumpluff can always be useful in a game, even when walled, due to Sleep Powder. Also Sawbuck can't OHKO bulky Volcarona, a common threat for sun teams. And steel-types need to be weakened for Jumpluff to sweep, every sweeper needs some Pokemon weakened (some more and some less), this doesn't mean that it is outclassed. Listen, whether you see Jumpluf's niche or not as an SD user, it is there, as proved by certain players that have succesfully used it on their teams (ssbm, the unlucky one) and the fact that the QC team (me included) deemed it OU viable.
  20. The Unlucky one

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    Lemme say this about the idea. Sawsbuck is a beast no doubt. Also, I pretty much agree with every single thing Alexwolf said. Sleep Powder is invaluable (75% of the time, fuck) and Jumpluff is a great cleaner for sun teams as it synergizes really damn well with Sun in general as it deals with Volcarona, Infernape, Landorus and Terrakion decently well which are threats to sun teams. Once again I feel my RMT shows off Jumpluff's capabilities and while a support set is viable, Leech Seed really sucks.
  21. Kidogo

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    I think you are really underestimating how big a deal magic guard is. Psychic is a p terrible type defensively, rendering mew's bulk almost unusable given all the crunches, uturns, and pursuits flying around. Mew is generally outclassed in the lead spot by faster, harder-hitting stuff like chomp, terra, and even azelf etc. So mew is forced to go offensive to remain viable. We've seen the same thing happen with reuniclus, whose CM set has dwindled while its OTR one remains much more popular.

    However, Alakazam is simply much better than mew in the offense department. While mew has a better movepool, alakazam has MUCH better speed and power, and coverage that, if not as finely tailorable as mew's, is perfectly sufficient for sweeping/attacking purposes. Psychic from alakazam just hits way way harder than from mew. And of course, alakazam has magic guard over mew, which either allows it to run a set that is far far more powerful than any of mew's without recoil, or to run the ultimate focus sash set, which is close to guaranteed a KO a game. Meanwhile, if mew wants to be any kind of offensive threat it needs to sacrifice bulk, meaning that its 2hko be p much everything...while alakazam is guaranteed a 2hko at worst while still hitting way harder. Sash alakazam is also hugely potent at high levels of play, as a mon that can revenge any threat no matter how many hazards are up or how many boosts they have can turn the tide of games. So mew is still decent but just doesnt fit well in this meta, while alakazam has a definite niche and advantage over mew.
  22. Meru

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    [​IMG]
    Gonna take the initiative to nominate Roserade to [size=+1]B-rank[/size]. Her access to Sleep Powder and her ability to threaten every weather starter except Ninetales gives her fantastic momentum to start the weather wars off in your favor. Access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes means its dangerous to give her free turns while Natural Cure means she can earn those free turns by switching in on status and various Scalds. Her Grass/Fire coverage gives her the ability to stop Volt Turn and deter spinners. Her poison typing allows her to check Breloom and Keldeo while simultaneously absorbing Toxic Spikes that are running rampant in the meta. She's one of the few Keldeo checks that not only isn't killed by CBtar, but can actually OHKO him. And finally, her fantastic 125 SpA allows her to become an offensive behemoth when needed. Since a lot more of B-rank has been promoted to A-rank, I feel that now is the appropriate time to submit this nomination.

    Her flaws lie in poor recovery options, low defense stat, low speed, and 4MSS coverage. But this can be overlooked as she can single-handedly give everything commonly found on Rain a hard time except Jirachi and Tornadus.
  23. RabidChipmunk

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    So if we're willing to make Alakazam A-Rank, what do people think of A-Rank Reuniclus too?

    [​IMG]

    Both Reuniclus and Alakazam are hard-hitting Psyhcic-types who are impervious to indirect damage, and both of them use largely the same moves (Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Other). Alakazam has a higher base Special Attack than Reuniclus, but Reuniclus' tend to run SpA boosting natures, which gives it the edge over Alakazam's who run Timid natures (which they should be).

    But while Alakazam is a fantastic revenge-killer and all-around powerhouse, Reuniclus is just a total monster to offensive teams, which let's be honest here, compromise most of the metagame. Since the OU metagame has become a series of Pokemon desperately trying to one-up each other for more Speed, Reuniclus punishes that team focus with it's TR set (it's only good one), and proceeds to massacre everything. Seriously, I mean everything. Get a bit of prior damage on the opponents team, and there's nothing stopping Reuniclus from sweeping, bar an unfortunate Focus Blast miss (which Alakazam has to deal with as well).

    Bland typing, predictability, and issues with SpD Jirachi aside aside, Reuniclus is here to ruin lives, and he does that job with admirable gusto. Reuniclus for A-Rank.
  24. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    I propose 3 things:​

    [​IMG]
    Nominating gengar for A-Rank
    Gengar is the best spinblocker for hyper offensive teams. Thanks to his massive base 130 special attack and base 110 speed, he can hit both fast and hard. He also gets perfect coverage in two moves. His subdisable set is amazing since he can potentially ruin the sweep of Swords dance terrakion and some breloom. The subsplit set can disrupt blissey, chansey and to the lesser extent snorlax. Don't forget that he's the only offensive spinblocker in the tier. All in all, gengar deserves A-Rank due to his power, coverage and speed.​

    [​IMG]
    Agreeing with moving reuniclus up to A-rank.
    Reuniclus is basically a slower bulkier alakazam. Thanks to his great bulk, reuniclus can live powerful attacks such as CS Salamence's outrage. His low speed can be turned around with trick room, meaning that only ferrothorn that run gyro ball can outspeed him in trick room. The twisted dimensions also allow reuniclus to beat most hyper offensive teams. Pokemon like scizor are stopped cold by HP fire, while ttar hates focus blast, meaning that only jirachi, metagross and bronzong can live 2 of his attacks. Apart from metagross, jirachi and bronzong can do absolutely nothing to him. Reuniclus's power, bulk and ability to beat hyper offensve teams give him a place in A-Rank.​

    [​IMG]
    Nominating gyarados for A-rank
    Gyarados is an amazing pokemon thanks to his typing. A dual Water/Flying makes him the best offensive check to keldeo and special landorus. He has two great abilities in moxie and intimidate, meaning that he can either sweep teams after a couple of DDs or he can take the role of a bulky attacker, making use of his resistences. His main STAB, waterfall, has a good flinch rate and is boosted by rain, meaning that most foes that don't resist it will have a hard time coming in. Bounce, while unreliable, allows him to keep celebi and breloom in check, as they will be hard-pressed to tank 1 bounce. Gyarados's power, bulk, and typing easily reserve him a spot in A-rank.​
  25. The Unlucky one

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    Alright I need to make some huge counter-arguments against some of the propositions as I really disagree with some of them. First of all, Reuniclus for A Rank is a really bad idea. Reuinclus really doesn't hang with the top tier mons in the game. tbh I really think A-Rank is being WAYYY too broad now as A-Rank is pretty much considered the monsters of the meta while B-Rank are staples. Reuniclus doesn't hang together with them for a few reasons. First of all, it's only viable set is OTR. I hope I face no contention with this but CM Reuniclus is not a good idea at all anymore. Reuniclus does take a big shit on HO teams but even against those teams it would be a bit hard to set-up the TR. Reuniclus bulk is rather overrated imo as Psychic's shitty defensive typing really makes it hard for it to accomplish much without that TR boost as it would die to anything. Reuniclus also has problems when it comes to synergy. Reuniclus doesn't really offer any good support with any of the staple mons nowadays as TR would just harm them. This makes Reuniclus rather specialized in its role on either TR teams or other teams with rather specific support. Reuniclus just doesn't offer the offensive synergy that most other teams do. Another main problem is how it is f'd up by Rachi. Looking at the Tournament Usage stats, Jirachi is the no.1 pokemon used atm and really makes Reuniclus' life a lot harder. Reuniclus is a good mon and all but it really doesn't deserve to hang with the A-Rank mons (I honestly don't think Alakazam does either, but I'll let that pass) due to those flaws as it is a lot better on paper than in practice.

    Next off there was a proposition for Roserade in B-Rank. iirc there was some discussion on this previously but I really don't think Roserade should be in B-rank. It's a rather niche mon and if you look at C-Rank's description, it talks about being eclipsed. Roserade is rather eclipsed by Celebi as it's main niche being Toxic Spikes and lack of a Pursuit weakness. However, it is hampered by pretty much being locked into a Specially Defensive variant as Offensive ones suck while it's Physical Defense is rather meh. Celebi just outperforms it a lot outside of Toxic Spikes which isn't even that great in the meta.

    Lastly, am I the only person who thinks the A-Rank is being way too broad. A-Rank used to be rather specific but nowadays it's filled to the brim with many pokemon. Honestly I think the reason to this is that so much discussion is encouraged and some rather unnecessary changes start to be made and this list will nearly never stabilize. I think we should take a path similar to RU in order to stabilize tier changes now as it gives people a rather different focus.
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