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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    I think you are really underestimating how big a deal magic guard is. Psychic is a p terrible type defensively, rendering mew's bulk almost unusable given all the crunches, uturns, and pursuits flying around. Mew is generally outclassed in the lead spot by faster, harder-hitting stuff like chomp, terra, and even azelf etc. So mew is forced to go offensive to remain viable. We've seen the same thing happen with reuniclus, whose CM set has dwindled while its OTR one remains much more popular.

    However, Alakazam is simply much better than mew in the offense department. While mew has a better movepool, alakazam has MUCH better speed and power, and coverage that, if not as finely tailorable as mew's, is perfectly sufficient for sweeping/attacking purposes. Psychic from alakazam just hits way way harder than from mew. And of course, alakazam has magic guard over mew, which either allows it to run a set that is far far more powerful than any of mew's without recoil, or to run the ultimate focus sash set, which is close to guaranteed a KO a game. Meanwhile, if mew wants to be any kind of offensive threat it needs to sacrifice bulk, meaning that its 2hko be p much everything...while alakazam is guaranteed a 2hko at worst while still hitting way harder. Sash alakazam is also hugely potent at high levels of play, as a mon that can revenge any threat no matter how many hazards are up or how many boosts they have can turn the tide of games. So mew is still decent but just doesnt fit well in this meta, while alakazam has a definite niche and advantage over mew.
  2. Meru

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    [​IMG]
    Gonna take the initiative to nominate Roserade to [size=+1]B-rank[/size]. Her access to Sleep Powder and her ability to threaten every weather starter except Ninetales gives her fantastic momentum to start the weather wars off in your favor. Access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes means its dangerous to give her free turns while Natural Cure means she can earn those free turns by switching in on status and various Scalds. Her Grass/Fire coverage gives her the ability to stop Volt Turn and deter spinners. Her poison typing allows her to check Breloom and Keldeo while simultaneously absorbing Toxic Spikes that are running rampant in the meta. She's one of the few Keldeo checks that not only isn't killed by CBtar, but can actually OHKO him. And finally, her fantastic 125 SpA allows her to become an offensive behemoth when needed. Since a lot more of B-rank has been promoted to A-rank, I feel that now is the appropriate time to submit this nomination.

    Her flaws lie in poor recovery options, low defense stat, low speed, and 4MSS coverage. But this can be overlooked as she can single-handedly give everything commonly found on Rain a hard time except Jirachi and Tornadus.
  3. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    So if we're willing to make Alakazam A-Rank, what do people think of A-Rank Reuniclus too?

    [​IMG]

    Both Reuniclus and Alakazam are hard-hitting Psyhcic-types who are impervious to indirect damage, and both of them use largely the same moves (Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Other). Alakazam has a higher base Special Attack than Reuniclus, but Reuniclus' tend to run SpA boosting natures, which gives it the edge over Alakazam's who run Timid natures (which they should be).

    But while Alakazam is a fantastic revenge-killer and all-around powerhouse, Reuniclus is just a total monster to offensive teams, which let's be honest here, compromise most of the metagame. Since the OU metagame has become a series of Pokemon desperately trying to one-up each other for more Speed, Reuniclus punishes that team focus with it's TR set (it's only good one), and proceeds to massacre everything. Seriously, I mean everything. Get a bit of prior damage on the opponents team, and there's nothing stopping Reuniclus from sweeping, bar an unfortunate Focus Blast miss (which Alakazam has to deal with as well).

    Bland typing, predictability, and issues with SpD Jirachi aside aside, Reuniclus is here to ruin lives, and he does that job with admirable gusto. Reuniclus for A-Rank.
  4. Magcargo

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    I propose 3 things:​

    [​IMG]
    Nominating gengar for A-Rank
    Gengar is the best spinblocker for hyper offensive teams. Thanks to his massive base 130 special attack and base 110 speed, he can hit both fast and hard. He also gets perfect coverage in two moves. His subdisable set is amazing since he can potentially ruin the sweep of Swords dance terrakion and some breloom. The subsplit set can disrupt blissey, chansey and to the lesser extent snorlax. Don't forget that he's the only offensive spinblocker in the tier. All in all, gengar deserves A-Rank due to his power, coverage and speed.​

    [​IMG]
    Agreeing with moving reuniclus up to A-rank.
    Reuniclus is basically a slower bulkier alakazam. Thanks to his great bulk, reuniclus can live powerful attacks such as CS Salamence's outrage. His low speed can be turned around with trick room, meaning that only ferrothorn that run gyro ball can outspeed him in trick room. The twisted dimensions also allow reuniclus to beat most hyper offensive teams. Pokemon like scizor are stopped cold by HP fire, while ttar hates focus blast, meaning that only jirachi, metagross and bronzong can live 2 of his attacks. Apart from metagross, jirachi and bronzong can do absolutely nothing to him. Reuniclus's power, bulk and ability to beat hyper offensve teams give him a place in A-Rank.​

    [​IMG]
    Nominating gyarados for A-rank
    Gyarados is an amazing pokemon thanks to his typing. A dual Water/Flying makes him the best offensive check to keldeo and special landorus. He has two great abilities in moxie and intimidate, meaning that he can either sweep teams after a couple of DDs or he can take the role of a bulky attacker, making use of his resistences. His main STAB, waterfall, has a good flinch rate and is boosted by rain, meaning that most foes that don't resist it will have a hard time coming in. Bounce, while unreliable, allows him to keep celebi and breloom in check, as they will be hard-pressed to tank 1 bounce. Gyarados's power, bulk, and typing easily reserve him a spot in A-rank.​
  5. TUO

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    Alright I need to make some huge counter-arguments against some of the propositions as I really disagree with some of them. First of all, Reuniclus for A Rank is a really bad idea. Reuinclus really doesn't hang with the top tier mons in the game. tbh I really think A-Rank is being WAYYY too broad now as A-Rank is pretty much considered the monsters of the meta while B-Rank are staples. Reuniclus doesn't hang together with them for a few reasons. First of all, it's only viable set is OTR. I hope I face no contention with this but CM Reuniclus is not a good idea at all anymore. Reuniclus does take a big shit on HO teams but even against those teams it would be a bit hard to set-up the TR. Reuniclus bulk is rather overrated imo as Psychic's shitty defensive typing really makes it hard for it to accomplish much without that TR boost as it would die to anything. Reuniclus also has problems when it comes to synergy. Reuniclus doesn't really offer any good support with any of the staple mons nowadays as TR would just harm them. This makes Reuniclus rather specialized in its role on either TR teams or other teams with rather specific support. Reuniclus just doesn't offer the offensive synergy that most other teams do. Another main problem is how it is f'd up by Rachi. Looking at the Tournament Usage stats, Jirachi is the no.1 pokemon used atm and really makes Reuniclus' life a lot harder. Reuniclus is a good mon and all but it really doesn't deserve to hang with the A-Rank mons (I honestly don't think Alakazam does either, but I'll let that pass) due to those flaws as it is a lot better on paper than in practice.

    Next off there was a proposition for Roserade in B-Rank. iirc there was some discussion on this previously but I really don't think Roserade should be in B-rank. It's a rather niche mon and if you look at C-Rank's description, it talks about being eclipsed. Roserade is rather eclipsed by Celebi as it's main niche being Toxic Spikes and lack of a Pursuit weakness. However, it is hampered by pretty much being locked into a Specially Defensive variant as Offensive ones suck while it's Physical Defense is rather meh. Celebi just outperforms it a lot outside of Toxic Spikes which isn't even that great in the meta.

    Lastly, am I the only person who thinks the A-Rank is being way too broad. A-Rank used to be rather specific but nowadays it's filled to the brim with many pokemon. Honestly I think the reason to this is that so much discussion is encouraged and some rather unnecessary changes start to be made and this list will nearly never stabilize. I think we should take a path similar to RU in order to stabilize tier changes now as it gives people a rather different focus.
  6. Meru

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    I'd hardly say Celebi outperforms Roserade. With the Toxic Spiker, they perform completely differently niches. Celebi can't even absorb Toxic Spikes. And Toxic Spikes aren't good in this meta? I hope you seriously re-consider that statement, as Toxic Spikes will always be relevant as long as the tier remains to be about weather wars. Sure, rain and sun both have Poison-types at their disposal, but if you plan your team around those Poison-types being present, it's hard for your opponent to get anywhere against you. Covering Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and Venusaur should always be kept in mind when you're running Roserade. Sure you can call that excessive support, but the amount of abuse you can put on your opponent for using the pokemon that you pre-meditated is not to be underestimated.

    And those are pretty much the only viable Poison-types in OU besides Rosey herself, Amoonguss, and maybe Nidoqueen/Nidoking. When Poison-types aren't present, the weather war is massively be in your favor, as spinners can't switch into her, and most of them fail to spin under the pressure of being poisoned. Also gonna point out that three out of the four pokemon in S-rank loathe Toxic Spikes. And none of this weather war support is anywhere near the realm of Celebi's duties. Not to mention Celebi is all the way up in A-rank. Rosey is only asking for B-rank.

    [​IMG]
  7. Wizarus

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    That's hyping up Toxic Spikes. The reality is that competitive teams usually have at least one of these:

    1/2 of the team is immune to Toxic Spikes or have pokes that don't care at all about Toxic Spikes(Guts/ Regenerator/pokes that kill you or are gone before the TS can take effect)

    Toxic Absorber - Sun and Rain have this covered.

    Rapid Spin - Forretress is immune, Tentecruel absorbs them, and Starmie can spin, switch out, and Natural Cure takes care of the poison.

    Magic Bounce - Xatu resists Leaf Storm too.

    Also loath is too strong of a word, the only sets that are really hurt by it are defensive Politoed and (Sub)Calm Mind Keldeo. Sub Terra is mildly bothered by it, and every other set doesn't really care about TS.
  8. Ojama

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    Celebi is better than Roserade without a doubt. Celebi gets Recover, has higher HP, better Defense and they almost have the same SDef (100 vs 105). Celebi has a ground resistance which Roserade doesn't have which means Roserade can't counter Landorus-I at all what Celebi is able to do if it doesn't run U-Turn. Toxic Spikes is obviously a real important Move and will always be but both Tentacruel and Venusaur are often used. Roserade can't even counter Keldeo since it is 2HKO'd by Secret Sword or IcyWind/HP Ice what Celebi is able to if Keldeo doesn't carry HP Bug. Also if you run Rest on Roserade that means you don't have either Sleep Powder or HP Fire which makes you more weak to Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor etc.

    Celebi is definitely better than Roserade and I'm not even sure if Roserade should be B Rank.

    Agreeing with moving Gengar up to A-Rank. Gengar is extremely good in the current Metagame and will always be an amazing Pokemon. The SubSplit Set is absolutely horrible to face and is really hard to take down. It is faster than Keldeo and Terrakion and it has a useful Fighting Immunity. It is also the best Spin Blocker in OU so yeah I really think it should be A-Rank.
  9. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Gengar is A-rank for sure but I diasagree with it being the best spinblocker since Starmie outspeeds and easily OHKOs it with Psyshock or water STAB in the rain.
    Jellicent is the premier spinblocker in OU.
  10. Spirit

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    Jellicent loses to tentacruel and starmie. It is now way better than Gengar at spin blocking.

    I don't agree with Reni in A-rank, it's stopped way too easily and is walled by quite a few threats. Also don't agree with Gyarados in A-rank, Gyarados has that SR weakness and is still terribly slow even after a Dragon Dance making it incredibly easy to revenge kill.
  11. dcae

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    SpD Jelly, its best set, easily beats Starmie. The set that beats Jelly every time is Tentacruel"s SubToxic set.

    I also think that Gengar should be A rank, it is the best offensive spinblocker in OU, and it's sets can troll the opposition pretty hard. Imo Reuni should stay where it is, but Gyarados should come up. Thanks to its typing, it checks both Landorus I and Keldeo, while providing a sweeping option. If Ferro didnt exist it would already be more used, but imo is an A rank poke in the current meta.
  12. Spirit

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    Wrong. Jellicent is flat out 2HKO'd by LO Thunder after SR. It does not "easily beat starmie". Also protect+toxic in the rain easily destroys jellicent, which is actually tenta's standard set, fyi, so it subtoxic, so I don't see your point.
  13. Memphis Grizzly

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    By Starmie using Thunder you are implying it will always be run on Rain teams. Which is not always the case, even so Specially Defensive Jellicent can take a Thunder and threaten to KO with Shadow Ball.
  14. Takion

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    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 198-234 (49 - 57.92%) -- 57.81% chance to 2HKO

    0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 170-204 (65.13 - 78.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Considering Jellicent has leftovers, it would be extremely hard for it to be 2HKO. It is more likely the Jelly will take out Starmie first.
  15. BurningMan

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    Almost no Starmie runs Thunder anymore most run Psyshock nowadays to more reliably check Keldeo (plus a second Stab is always great) and SDef Jellicent got a 89% chance to get 2HKOd by Psyshock after SR.

    However i don't really think SDef Jellicent is very good it is just too frail on the physical side without significant EV investment wich cuts down the number of thinks it can check significantly.
  16. dcae

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    Thunder is absent on Starmie nowadays. Even LO Thunderbolt is getting rare nowadays. Tenta does beat Jelly, but Jelly is still the Betsy spinblocker in OU, because Gengar is too frail to survive and gets OHKOd by Starmie, as well as getting stalled out by Tenta. This actually just backs Tenta as the hands down best spinner in the tier, but that was already implemented.

    Regarding SpD Jelly, imo it is the best set on stall and semi stall teams. More balanced teams that don't have enough walls to employ SpD walls only. Mixed defensive Jelly tends to be better on balanced teams,but imo Jelly is better off capitalizing on its amazing SpD bulk.

    Jelly is imo the best spinblocker in OU, but Gengar outclasses him on more offensive teams, where constant pressure damages spinners and allows Gengar to have an easier time. The choice of spinblocker honestly depends on the team, but I still believe Jelly has an easier time against the spinners of OU.
  17. victinivcreate1

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    Th JelliThorn core can reliably beat Tentacruel if it is paried with Landorus-I. Landy also handles the cores other problems, like Virizion and Breloom.
  18. False Sense

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    You know, with all this talk about Jellicent and how it's arguably the best spin blocker in the tier, I'm surprised that no one has suggested Jellicent be moved up to A-Rank. I think it's been suggested a few pages back, and I think there's good reason to do it. What does everyone else think?
  19. kakuna

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    As pokemon has evolved over time, entry hazads have become stupidly common in it. If you ask me building an OU team without entry hazards and rapid spin is a bad idea. So how do you counter all of this hazard craziness? You use a ghost type to protect your hazards. Gengar has been the best OU ghost since the beginning of pokemon and definitely deserves A rank for that achievement. Gengar is also extremely powerful and has flawless coverage. As its usage suggests, gengar belongs in the A rank. Jellicent is the best defensive stallbreaker available in OU, and is much more bulk than gengar. Jellicent does however have access to a water typing, recover, and good bulk. However I think Jellicent should move to A as well because it helps to wall top threats like keldeo, politoed, and many others. Building a stall team without jellicent is also pretty dumb, it is an absolute staple.
  20. dcae

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    Wau I thought Jellicent had been moved up! It is definitely a Stall team staple, being as I stated before the spinblocker that beats the most spinners. It also has amazing Special bulk and an excellent ability granting it the unique trait to completely shut down Keldeo. The SpD set as well can take on Landorus I very easily, something not many pokemon can boast. It is an A rank pokemon definitely in my eyes, and should be moved up thanks to its omnipresence on Stall and Semi-Stall.
  21. Spirit

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    Can you not read carefully? It says after Stealth Rock.

    Also just because it isn't common doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we don't base viability off of usage.

    Yeah, you see that doesn't matter. Why? Because tentacruel spins on fucking ferrothorn.
  22. False Sense

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    Well, Icecream, how common something is does kind of impact viability. In fact, it plays quite a large role. For example, Rain is very common nowadays, so most people often pack numerous rain checks, and things neutered by Rain have become less viable. Infernape is a prime example, since it has become less potent due to Rains omnipresence, and it's viability dropped as a result. Similar cases can be made for things like how Scizors high usage makes being pursuit weak a serious issue.
  23. Spirit

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    You're interpreting it wrong. I mean that just because something isn't as common doesn't mean it won't work or it isn't an option. Take Amoonguss for example, i'm sure you'll vouch for that.
  24. False Sense

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    Very true; I didn't mean to imply that at all. Underused things can actually be great. But since it's not common, it's usually not something you need to prepare for. Going back to my Infernape example, nowadays it's used much less because of Rain. As a result, most people don't take it into account when building teams, or at least, they don't account for it as much as before. It COULD be a threat, but since it isn't used much, people don't need to account for it. The thing is, if something isn't common, then it doesn't affect the viability of other pokemon.
  25. Magcargo

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    First off, reuniclus is only truly walled by a few pokemon (Metagross, Jirachi and bronzong). Jirachi, metagross that run EQ and bronzong can all be handled by air balloon heatran. The rest of the tier is smashed by its power and "speed" in Trick room. Gyarados can outspeed the entire unboosted metagame after a DD and while the SR weakness hurts, other A-Rankers like salamence and kyurem share this weakness. Gyarados's typng also allows it to be the best offensive special landorus and keldeo check, as well as a great check to breloom (after sleep clause has been activated).
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