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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    HP Ghost is almost exclusively for Jellicent. Genger and Reuniclus are crushed by boosted Surfs and Hydro Pumps, whereas Lati@s and Dragons in general are hit by HP Ice. Ghost overlaps Jellicent, Lati@s, and Celebi, which I guess HP Dark would as well, but there's probably something I'm forgetting that causes Keldeo to run Ghost.
  2. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Its just the Justified boosts on Terrakion, as well as not being as easy for a Fighting type to sponge it (though a neutral HP Ghost isn't that powerful anyways).
  3. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Not only that, but HP Ghost mantains neutral coverage against Toxicroak. In fact, with prior damage, a Specs-boosted HP Ghost has a chance to 2HKO Toxicroak. The problem is that Toxicroak will usually recover all the lost HP under rain, so it needs to be heavily weakened to be 2HKOed.

    Also, HP Ghost is only really useful for Jellicent, and because it mantains coverage against Lati@s and Celebi (luckily, they are Psychic-types). Otherwise, HP Electric is a better choice. It covers Gyarados and Tentacruel more effectively. HP Ice if you are using a CM set, otherwise Icy Wind covers the Dragon-types.

    Celebi is an onion???? O.o

    I would only say that it has 4MSS on the Nasty Plot set, because most other sets can cover enough things with their 4 moveslots. This is because Celebi has to choose between being walled by Heatran (Hidden Power Fire), or being walled by Scizor and Ferrothorn (Earth Power), and being able to hit Dragon-types harder while hitting Hydreigon and Lati@s (Hidden Power Ice), or being able to hit most Dragon-types neutrally while having a stronger general STAB that can hit Fighting-types harder (Psychic).

    Grass is not a bad defensive type. People tend to say that because it has 5 weakness, but on the end, only two of these weakness are relevant (Fire and Ice). Maybe also Bug, but most Bug-type attacks that you are going to see are U-Turn, and the most common user of them is Scizor. The only Pokémon that commonly use Flying-type attacks are Skarmory and Tornadus, and nobody uses Poison-type attacks, save for Sludge Bomb on Venusaur. With that said, thanks to Grass' four valuable resistances, it is one of the best defensive types.

    The reason why Celebi should not be A-Rank is because it fails to wall all relevant things on OU and fails to sweep everything. No matter which moves Celebi uses, it is always going to be walled by something, and is usually something that is very common (for example, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Kyurem-B walls Earth Power + HP Ice, while Heatran and Lati@s wall HP Fire + Psychic). Not only that, but Celebi's speed isn't incredible. It needs team support; Celebi is not like Pokémon such as Landorus-I, which can sweep with little support.
  4. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I have fought for Jirachi to become S-rank soooo many pages ago (probably about 20-30 pages, if not more) and no one was buying it. When I see a Jirachi in team preview, my head hits the fucking desk because I already know I will probably have trouble with it. Idk if PK has spoken his opinion on it, but I would support Jirachi for S-rank.
  5. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I, too, support Jirachi for S-Rank.

    Jirachi is one of those Pokemon where you actively have to ask yourself "Why am I NOT using this on my team?" It's an excellent team supporter, a potent Calm Mind sweeper, quite possibly the ultimate hax Pokemon, and, in the rain especially, a right bitch to take out. Jirachi does everything, and more often than not your team will benefit from it's addition. Jirachi for S-Rank.
  6. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

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    [​IMG]
    Proposing Garchomp for S-rank. As you all may know Garchomp is still listed as an A-rank Pokemon. I strongly feel it's an S-rank Pokemon and better than Terrakion in many ways. So I'm going to be comparing the two in this wall of text. It's because of one set that I feel it is S-rank and that set is SD Yache Chomp. This set is an awesome wallbreaker and let me tell you why it's better than SD Terrakion. First and foremost nothing can wall it at +2 yes even without Life Orb. Walls are forced to phase it out or they get outright 2HKO'D. Here are some calcs vs OU's toughest to break physical walls.

    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 228-268 (59.68 - 70.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 184-218 (54.43 - 64.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 241-285 (68.07 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    As you can see even OU's best physical walls can't wall Garchomp. The first two are forced to phase or get 2HKO'd while Garchomp can still get in later in the match with the same health as when he left. Landorus-T gets 2HKO'd and can't do much back except Earthquake or HP Ice but can't hope to beat Garchomp because of Yache Berry. Same with Bronzong. Gliscor also 2HKO'd and can really only poison it back but Garchomp almost always breaks trough Gliscor. Breaks trough Ferrothorn as well while Ferro can really only Leech Seed or Gyro Ball. Terrakion loses to both Gliscor and Landorus-T as it has to rely on Stone Edge which is too weak even at +2 to break trough them while Landorus-T and Gliscor can dispose of it with Earthquake.

    Garchomp is harder to check than Terrakion. The answer as to why is because of the typing. Garchomp is Ground/Dragon therefore being weak to only Ice and Dragon. Terrakion is Rock/Fighting and has a whopping 6 weaknesses. Fighting, Ground, Steel, Water, Grass and Psychic. Scizor, the number 1 used Pokemon in OU makes Terrakion's life hell and checks all Terrakion's sets unless using Babiri Berry but it's dumb using it because Close Combat lowers it's defenses so it's a waste of an item imo. Also get's checked by Breloom's Mach Punch a really popular Pokemon as well as Conkeldurr. That's just priority but Terrakion is also easily checked by Keldeo, Politoed, T-tar, Landorus etc. All of these are very common Pokemon that can check Terrakion if they are Scarfed. Now let's talk about Garchomp, because of only one priority weakness and really good bulk it can afford to use Yache Berry and use it very effectively. Mamoswine gets beaten by Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus, Breloom, Scizor all common Pokemon used as revenge killers fall to YacheChomp. The only thing that can reliably check Garchomp is Lati@s which can get trapped by T-tar who is commonly on the same team with Garchomp or other Scarfed Dragons which are rare.

    So Garchomp has no reliable counters and is a lot harder to check than Terrakion that alone makes it S-rank but heh I'll continue. People always like to bring up Terrakion's higher speed and Special Defense boost but it honestly doesn't matter the only thing Garchomp misses out on are Keldeo, Infernape and Terrakion that's litterally it not to mention SD Garchomp beats all three of them if using Yache Berry. As for the Special Defense boost it really is a shame for Terrakion because all of it's counters/checks use physical moves and Special Attackers like Lati@s can even get around that because of Psyshock so the Sp Def boost isn't really helpful. In short Garchomp has no reliable counters, much harder to check, better bulk and better typing.

    All these advantages Garchomp has over Terrakion makes it S-rank. Terrakion being an arguably better Choice Band/Scarf Pokemon and Rock Polish are really the only things it has over Garchomp and even then Rock Polish isn't too good with Scizor and Breloom everywhere. Summary: Garchomp has no reliable counters unlike Terrakion, a lot harder to check, better bulk, typing. Garchomp really deserves S-rank and I think many other people think so as well.
  7. Ryuuki

    Ryuuki

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    Well we had a Garchomp discussion on pages 74-76 if you want to read it. But I don't think Garchomp should be S-rank becouse of its speed stat. 102 i good but many scarfers and shit like Keldeo can come in and revenge kill it if it get's looked inte outrage, and I don't have problem with that. However it's far from bad.

    On the Jirachi note, I do realy love Jirachi but it's not really that good. Yes that 60% paralyze chance is really good but for crippel sweepers but to many things can force it out like Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus and even Volcarona. If it's the paraflinch set then it's just to come in on iron head.
    Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.
    It have 3 good sets it can use and all three of them relays on a 60% hax making it unreliable. Jirachi isn't unpredictable and it's infact quite predictable with spamming Thunder or Body Slam and possible Iron Head.
    Also If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. I don't feel that Jirachi's strengths makes up for it's weeknesses. It don't hit can excel at either hit hard or tanky. It's still among the best tanks we have but it isn't enough to push it over the top.

    So I think both Garchomp should stay in the A-rank.
  8. kakuna

    kakuna

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    I don't totally understand why Kyurem-B is in the A tier with powerhouses like Latios and Landorus-T. While Kyurem-B is in no way bad, his poor movepool and typing don't consistently earn him a spot in the top OU club. I think Kyurem-B would fit better in the B-Rank because he is often outclassed where he currently is. Garchomp isn't weak to bullet punch or close combat, and has greater speed and STAB earthquake. While Kyurem has a water resist while not being weak to ice- very useful- he has too many defensive issues to sweep ever. Kyurem-B is very powerful and all, but in terms of consistently being a great choice and performer... no. The only set that can really hammer past checks is mixed with HP fire for forretress and ferrothorn, but then kyurem finds himself taking life orb damage and stealth rock damage, not to mention he could be lured into outrage and become setup fodder or be picked off by gyro ball. Also unless he is scarf he will be annihalated by terrakion and keldeo. Regardless breloom will get him. Choice band sets are usually outclassed by dragonite or garchomp, while choice scarf sets are outclassed by salamence. Mixed sets are usually done better by hydreigon. Kyurem-B has amazing stats in general though which can't be overlooked, so he fits in B rank as a jack of all trades but a master of none. The only sets Kyurem can pull off which only he can pull off are more defensively based, like sub hone claws and sub 3 attacks. Neither of these sets are dangerous enough or get enough set up oppurtunities to work consistently though. Sub hone claws works well on dedicated stall teams looking for a win condition of sorts, but Jellicent and Forretress are way more key to stall teams, and see themselves in the B rank. Nothing Kyurem does can really compete with its current A tier counterparts.
  9. namehtmas

    namehtmas

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    That's a very poor argument though because scarfers are really going to outspeed anything. The only time that argument would really be relevant is when discussing ScarfChomp sets, which aren't very good in this meta anyway. Scarf Keldeo can't OHKO the Yache sets, while Garchomp does a lot on the switch (66.25 - 78.32%) or would obviously OHKO at +1. Specs Keldeo does have a very good chance of OHKOing after SR, though I believe Scarf is the more popular (and perhaps viable?) set.
  10. TrippingRocks

    TrippingRocks

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    While I agree that Kyurem-B should remain as an A-rank, I'd like to refute some of your points anyway.

    Kyruem-B may not be weak to ice shards, but his ice-typing now gives him a weakness to 3 priority moves, mach punch, bullet punch, and vacuum wave. Vacuum wave is rare in the metagame, so lets forget about that one. Bullet punch is commonly only seen on Brelooms... but then again... ice shard is commonly only seen on Mamoswines. Donphans can also pack ice shard, but they're not that common. Bullet punch, on the other hand, is extremely common as Scizor is the main user of it. Scizor is one of THE most commonly used OU pokemon in the game. Kyurem's weakness to bullet punch alone already outweighs the pro of him taking neutral damage to ice shard. And his weakness to mach punch only makes it worse.

    Kyurem-B has some monstrous stats indeed, but his typing is more of a curse than a blessing. Out of all the dragons, Kyurem-B is THE most vulnerable dragon pokemon to entry hazards. He takes super effective damage from stealth rocks and takes damage from the spikes. Sure, other dragons like dragonite and salamence may by weak to stealth rocks as well, but at least they're invulnerable to spikes. Such is not the case for Kyurem-B. Kyurem-B has good bulk, but his typing really bites him.

    His movepool kind of bites too. You can't really run an all-physical set with Kyurem-B because he doesn't have the coverage for it. If he wants to hit those steel types for super effective damage, he has to run a specially-based move. His special attack stat is great and all, but his physical attack is far, far superior. His speed stat also holds him back. The only OU dragon that is slower than Kyurem-B is Dragonite, but Dragonite has extremespeed to patch that slowness up and a better move set.
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

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    252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi (+Def): 44.55% - 52.48%

    Good chance to 2hko after rocks




    That is why he can run a physical set just fine
  12. TrippingRocks

    TrippingRocks

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    The other OU dragons have a bigger physical movepool than Kyurem-B, a physical movepool that can deal super-effective damage to steel types.

    If we're talking about a max atk Kyurem-B with choice band and his strongest STAB move, then obviously he'll be able to 2 hit-KO quite a number of pokemon. Still doesn't change the fact that he simply lacks the same amount of physical coverage as the other OU dragons. While he also has the highest attack stat of the dragons, the lack of coverage balances it out.

    Against a 252 HP/252 Def Jirachi (+Def), a Kyurem-B has NO CHANCE of knocking it out in two hits with just it's physical set (even with stealth rock support). With a dragonite or salamence, it's certainly possible, thanks to their access to earthquake.

    Against a 252 HP/ 0 Def Ferrothorn (+Def), you'd have to be very lucky to 2hko it with a CB-KyuremB and that's only if you have stealth rocks up. If the Ferrothorn has some defensive investments, then there's no way for a Kyurem-B to 2hko it with just his physical movepool.

    Basically, against any steel type, Kyurem-B's physical movepool lacks the coverage to deal with them as well as the other OU dragons. Against physically bulky steel types, a physical Kyurem-B with CB has no chance of 2hko.
  13. Spirit

    Spirit
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    That's not the point. The point is that Kyurem-B's ridiculous power compensates for its lack of movepool.
  14. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Yes CB Kyurem B hits like a nuke with Outrage, but I feel like his best sets are easily his sub sets, which either take advantage of monstrous mixed stats and bulk to set up and tear holes, or can use hone claws and dragon tail to deal huge damage and knock the opposing team around. Kyurem B is the best sub user in OU and thus easily deserves A rank. It shouldnt be dropped because Salamence and Dragonite have a different role on teams.
  15. TrippingRocks

    TrippingRocks

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    My previous post already mentioned that his high attack stat balanced his lack of physical coverage.

    My point is that Kyurem-B is better off going for a mixed set. I still think he's A-rank, but if you're only going to use his physical moveset, you're probably better off with another dragon that has better physical coverage.
  16. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    You don't learn to play Pokemon yourself, Pokemon teaches you how to learn it. ~Name lost to history (aka I can't remember)

    Why that quote? It's simple: Kyurem-B is the definition of a Pokemon that is predictable, has many relative equivalents in the meta and looks much better as a theorymon; it shares the same fate as Flareon in poor defensive typing, a bad movepool for its stats and being relatively "outclassed" in most roles you would logically put it in. A blistering Attack stat such as his looks amazing; with Ice and Dragon STABs, it has neutral coverage on many things (though Steels are the bane of his existence regardless). His movepool and defensive typing is lackluster, however; SR weakness, resistances to types such as Water (resists Ice that they carry anyway and most pack a neutral Ice move), Grass (Ice kills them anyway) and Electric (meh typing in this meta, with EQs everywhere) and a neutrality against Ice (the only useful defensive perk Ice typing gave it) plus a lack of many notable Physical Ice STABs; not to say he doesn't have enough, however, but still.

    However, this does not mean Kyurem-B is unworthy of A-Rank. Let's look at A-Rank's description:
    Bolded the important bits. Sure, he can't exactly get past Steels without a good Fire-type attack (which, again, he lacks a viable Physical variation of such), but you have teammates for a reason. Stealth Rocks? Starmie and Ferrothorn/Forretress are actually decent partners to Kyurem-B. Similarly to Mamoswine, he can take out large parts of the tier; notably, other Dragons, Sand teams and every Venusaur in existence. He may be a low A-Rank, but he deserves A-Rank alright. His Outrage just wrecks everything, especially non-Steels with low Physical Defense (what Steel has low Defense? Excadrill? Anyway...), and his Ice STAB's aren't too shabby either. I say, though he may look much better as a theorymon, he's worth a good try in this meta and should always be considered when building a team, both as a teammate and a threat.

    Beating a KB requires experience in this meta and a knowledge of the mon, hence my quote at the beginning. You can only learn to play around this guy when he tries to stop you from doing so. His limited movepool means the same moves are generally ran; however, don't let this fool you into thinking clever prediction can always kill him. His Speed can hold the Frost Dragon back, but he does have that okay bulk to make up for it somewhat. Kyurem-B is not perfect, but he's a great mon, one that you have to watch out for- or use yourself.

    tl;dr: A small movepool and somewhat predictable and slow, yes, but great offensive typing makes up for this, plus DAT ATTACK. Kyurem-B shouldn't be Rank B! Let him stay where he belongs, wrecking in Rank A!
  17. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Actually I find him very good at checking Water Pokemon due to his massive bulk and access to SE Fusion Bolt.
  18. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    Problem is, Fusion Bolt comes off of his lowish (lower, at least) Special Attack stat, using up a few EVs that he would rather invest in Attack in Physical sets. However, I've done minimal Mixed Kyurem (we need a catchy name for that, like MixMence- MixRum? KyuMix-B?) testing myself, so I'll take your word for it.

    All the more reason to keep him in A Rank regardless.
  19. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    Fusion Bolt is physical
    derp
  20. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    Oh, duh.
    No idea why I thought it was Special there for a second.

    ...

    I'm tired. I need to sleep.
  21. TrippingRocks

    TrippingRocks

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    Uh.. no. Read my posts again. I did not say that Kyurem-B can only run physical sets. In fact, I suggested that it would be better if he used a mixed set as his physical movepool lacks complete coverage.

    The point I was trying to get across is that an all physical-attacking Kyurem-B is not his best set. He has absolutely no physical attack to hit steel-types for super-effective damage. If he's not locked into Outrage, his best option against steel types would be fusion bolt, which only does a bit more damage than a STAB and resisted Outrage.

    If you're going to use Kyurem-B, go for a mixed set.
  22. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    "The point I was trying to get across is that an all physical-attacking Kyurem-B is not his best set"
    You. are seriously missing the point here.
    It's Base 170 Attack is huge. No other OU Pokemon out there is capable of matching that kind of Power. Use a mixed set? Kyurem is simply a better choice thanks to that solid 130/130 Offense. Kyurem-B is meant to be a physical monster. Of course Outrage is tanked by Steel Types what kind of argument was that? Are you not going to run Close Combat Terrakion anymore because Jellicent is immune to it?
    Kyurem-B is an amazing wallbreaker but seriously outshines all the other Dragons as a Substitute abusing Dragon. With a Substitute in place, Kyurem can scout out the opposing Steel Type switch in and respond accordingly with his great movepool.
  23. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Tabuu, Kyurem B only has 10 base special attack less than normal Kyurem. Yeah, the black version has a huge base attack, but it has very useful special attacking options. If you check Kyurem-B's analysis, ALL its sets have at least 1 special attack. Example: Ice Beam, Hidden Power, Earth Power and Draco Meteor. Even the Choice Band set runs Ice Beam!
  24. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    But regarding his argument it says:
    "If you're going to use Kyurem-B, go for a mixed set."
    His physical set is where he shines. As small of a niche as it is, Kyurem can essentially do the mixing while Kyurem-B should be abusing that massive Physical Attack.
    If you look at the analysis Kyurem-B's Mixed set is listed near the bottom, and that usually shows which one is more popular and what not.
    I think what the problem here is, how you would go about defining mixed set. Yes CB Kyurem-B has Ice Beam, but does that really make him mixed?
  25. TrippingRocks

    TrippingRocks

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    No, I don't think I'm missing the point. I've already mentioned this before, but I get that he has a huge attack stat. A huge attack stat is great and all, but coverage would make it even better. He doesn't have the physical coverage for it. That's why he uses his specially based attacks to patch it up.

    I'm pretty sure a Kyurem-B with 170/120 offense is better than a normal Kyurem's 130/130 offense. Sure, Kyurem-B hits a bit softer on the special side, but he also hits a lot harder on the physical side. Plus he gets Fusion bolt, which is certainly nice for physical coverage.
    Terrakion runs close combat AND stone edge. It gives him nearly perfect coverage, allowing him to hit almost anything for STAB and neutral damage. His attack stat may not be as high as Kyurem-B, but his physical coverage is much better, allowing him to deal with steel types better.
    My argument isn't that Steel types can tank an outrage. My argument is that Kyurem-B has NOTHING to hit them for super-effective damage. His best move against steel types would be fusion bolt, which does not receive STAB.

    I'm arguing that Kyurem-B doesn't have the physical coverage to pull an all-out physical set. I have no idea where you brought up the analogy of the Terrakion and Jellicent. Jellicent is certainly immune to one of Terrakion's STAB moves, but Terrakion has another STAB move called Stone Edge.

    So you're advocating for a mixed set, right? Because his physical movepool ain't that great. Earth Power would certainly be a great move to use against steel types, but it's a specially based move. Therefore, Kyurem-B is best used with a mixed set, not a physical set.
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