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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Mamoswine is definitely A-Rank material. It has so much going for it, that the positives greatly outweigh the few negatives, such as his low speed or bad defensive typing. Ice/Ground hits half the meta game for super effective damage, and in this Dragon/Steel infested meta game Ice and Ground moves are really useful to have. Although Mamoswine is easily out sped by a majority of Pokemon in OU, Mamoswine has access to STAB priority Ice Shard, which stops Moxie Mence, DD Dragonite, RP Landorus, Breloom, and even Haxorus dead in their tracks. Earthquake hits Tyranitar before it can KO back with Stone Edge, and Air Balloon Heatran still has to worry about Superpower. As others had said, he's also a great Stealth Rock setter and can be an outstanding Endeavor Focus Sash lead, since he can KO back the next turn with Ice Shard. Thick Fat makes him neutral to Fire attacks, which even lets him avoid the OHKO by Timid Heatran's Fire Blast. He's great on either Hail or Sand teams since he's immune to both, and often times he is the glue of many teams since he can single handedly check almost every Dragon type in OU and provide outstanding coverage against other threats such as Breloom, Jirachi, and Landorus. Honestly, I don't think I've ever made a team that doesn't have a Mamoswine weakness. He's just that threatening. Scizor and physically bulky Waters such as Politoad, Vaporeon, and Rotom-W with Levitate are one of the few decent answers to Mamoswine. Heck, even Standard Jellicent fears an EQ from him.

    All in all, the goods heavily outweigh the bads, and Mamoswine seems to fit in A-Rank just fine.
  2. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I would like to propose Gastrodon move to B rank from C rank.

    [​IMG]

    It is not outclassed at all as no other pokemon is capable of doing what it does. It also walls some popular threats such as e belt/scarf Keldeo's and can tank various high powered moves depending on whether it is specially or physically defensive.

    I am personally in love with physically defensive as it makes an excellent check to various pokemon such as Terrakion and when pokemon such as banded Dragonite can never ohko with any move whilst Gastro returns with an ohko (after rocks)... you know this pokemon is quite in a league of its own.

    I think as people have become accustomed to it being almost exclusively specially defensive it has been forgotten in C rank however my argument is that it is great on both sides and I will even go as far as saying it is better physically defensively as the special pokemon it tends to check nicely can still be checked with a 252/4 spread!

    Once upon a time when toxic was common gastrodon was probably a risky pokemon to use, right now, especially in this meta its so rare to see toxic on pokemon not called politoed, gliscor or gastrodon.. Gastro can effectively keep coming in again and again to wall things.

    Heres a replay to highlight Gastro's excellent bulk:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou12856262
    He had an excellent team but no way to deal with Gastro, it really shuffled up his team.

    The set I use:

    Gastrodon @ leftovers
    252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
    Bold Nature
    Trait: Water Absorb
    -Earth Power
    -Ice Beam
    -Toxic
    -Recover
  3. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I have to say, physically defensive gastrodon has caused me a lot of trouble lately. Grass moves/types are so rare and with two extremely common special types useless, it's hard to ko the physically defensive spread. It isn't godlike or anything, but gastrodon definitely deserves to sit alongside the other b-rank pokemon in the current meta.
  4. PsychoGamer23

    PsychoGamer23

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    I can't agree more with this. Mamoswine is a beast and checks many common threats in the OU tier. I always find myself rolling with Mamoswine on my teams.
  5. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Gastrodon gets a bad rap. It really does. People think this big pink slug is damn near useless, but it's quite the opposite. Since the current meta game is very weather based, Gastrodon fits right in as one of the best counters to Rain in the meta game. It's immune to Hydro Pumps from Politoed and Keldeo while also being immune to Thundurus-T who can't really touch Gastrodon without HP Grass. On top of that, Storm Drain makes Gastrodon an instant threat once it comes into a Water attack, turning it into an offensive tank. A STAB Earth Power or Surf hits hard with a +1 boost, and with the combination of Toxic and Earth Power Gastrodon can even take down bulky water types. Another huge advantage that Gastrodon has is its access to Recover, which makes it really hard to deal with without a Grass move. Although a rare Pokemon, Gastrodon has the tendency to make players paranoid into putting Power Whip on Ferrothorn over Gyro Ball solely for Gastrodon if there team is lacking a Grass move. I've been up against a few myself without a Grass type, and I tell you it's one of the most annoying Pokemon to deal with in the game. Especially if you miss predict and it gets a free +1, then you're in for trouble. Although Gastrodon is literally slow as a slug, and it's rather frail on the defensive side, Gastrodon is blessed with a monstrous HP stat and a very useful ability that makes Gastrodon more then meets the eye. It shouldn't be compared to the likes of Infernape as being non viable in this meta game, because it absolutely is useful.

    Gastrodon I feel would be a solid low B-Rank.
  6. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Mamoswine for A-Rank, its basically one of the larger forces in the meta, thanks to good typing, good movepool, good stats, a useful ability, and anything else that the others mentioned.

    Gastrodon.... eh, I dunno. Its sorta in a weird place. Its stats are decent, its typing is pretty good, and its got the movepool to back it up. However, I don't think its that good right now. Stats, like I said, are decent, but decent sometimes isn't enough. You guys are going on about Storm Drain boosted Earth Powers and Waterfalls, but are forgetting that Gastrodon, to be any real use, is going to be using a defensive set with very little offensive investment and only one or two attacks, backed up with a base 92 Sp Attack, which isn't going to be hitting very hard. The fact that Ferrothorn and Celebi, two of the best Pokemon in the meta, destroy Gastrodon doesn't help matters. Of course, it does have the ability to take on Electric types and Water types, which is very useful, but it still does take a buttload of damage from coverage attacks and the like. I guess you guys know better than I do, since I never use it, but I'm a little hesitant on B-Rank.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    I oppose Gastrodon for B rank, since I was the one who originally nominated him for C rank, but I've already made my case for why he shouldn't be B rank so I don't really feel like typing it out again haha. I'm pretty sure the arguments were made around page 60 or so, so I ask that you all go read about it there. Basically, I think Gastrodon was a lot more useful in times past, and the standard set can actually be broken by a lot of common physical threats. I don't like people citing offensive sets since those are irrelevant, but I'm pretty sure Gary was just saying that he can do more damage than you might expect with a boost, which is true, but I don't think it's noticeable enough to make a difference. Either way, things like Celebi and Breloom are so common now that Gastrodon really has to stay on its toes (does it even have toes?) if it wants to survive. So yeah, I don't support B rank, but it seems like I'm in the minority, so whatever.
  8. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I also think Gastronomy should stay where it is. The current meta is not very kind to it, it was superior back in the old days. Halcyon of Light explained this much better than me, and I'm on my phone, built in general I can't see it on the same level as some off the the other B rank pokemon.
  9. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    In the replay you can clearly see the opponent had a Breloom, but it doesn't have an easy time coming in on ice beam.

    Also you ignored the main reasons I proposed Gastro would make a good B rank, it makes a great wall and some of the most common "banded" or "specs" users can not only fail to ohko it but are often ohkoed in return with the appropriate move, in particular Dragons, Terrakion, Keldeo (non CM or LO), psyshock users etc can not easily break Gastro.

    Throw in an inadvertently offensive metagame and I would argue that Gastro makes an excellent check to scarf users! Terrakion and Keldeo are perhaps currently the most common, both are effortlessly walled when scarfed (barring a Terrakion crit). Less used scarf pokemon like Latios, Salamence and Jirachi can also be checked very easily and must rely on trick to cripple Gastro.

    Its true some specs users such as Latios give it a hard time regardless of whether Gastro is specially or physically defensive (Psyshock and Draco meteor respectively) and some band users will always trouble it (Gasto can't switch in on banded CC from terrakion, but it can still check it!) but it still stands that Gastro has a habit of coming in for free on various pokemon and the difficulty in ohkoing or 2hkoing a pokemon capable of doing some serious damage is a thing that makes Gastro OU and B rank viable.

    Most of the OU juggernauts powerful enough to 2hko Gastro excluding grass types must be weary of a supereffective ice or ground type attack. Other pokemon can simply not deal with gastro.. unless you're running something "different".

    I would also argue the current meta is BETTER for Gastrodon if anything. It checks the new threats hard countering bulky Landorus T, scarfed/setup Thundurus-T not running GK whilst enjoying a metagame with less toxic and more choice scarfs and mixed coverage attackers, in particular Gastro does well against sand and Rain but I will admit it struggles against sun thanks to Venusaur. I think players who wish to try Gastro simply have to start experimenting with a physically defensive Gastrodon as it really is a wonder in this current meta.

    edit: It is true that having a Ferro/Celebi is almost certain insurance against Gastrodon but I have not necessarily had it become suddenly "useless" with their presence, its effect that match is merely hampered (or requires prediction).. in a similar vein to how Banded Terrakions effectiveness is "hampered" by a Landorus-T/Gliscor

    edit 2: as Gastro is a defensive pokemon, the burden is on the other player to 2hko gastro before it eventually ko's back (assuming no toxic). So keep that in mind :) (this is in response to the importance placed on special attack, thats just a bonus ;)
  10. Vemane

    Vemane

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    lolwut? The only pokes that it might have trouble with in terms of easy 1hkos/setup opprotunities that are common are celebi and breloom. And breloom is 1hkod by ice beam iirc if it is to switch in.

    Whereas gastro is a complete asshole to keldeo and those other fun choiced water spammers. In fact, anything that uses electric/water/ice coverage is basically screwed. Even with gastrodon is not out, it makes it a huge liability for the opponents scarf keldeo to come in to revenge, say, a landorus, as it will have to resort to hp ice to not be completely shut down, but hp ice offers a huge amount of setup opprotunity.

    It also handles non-np thundy (or np without focus blast), checks lando, walls starmie and rotom-w, etc.

    tl;dr: The meta is perfectly suited to it
  11. Cosmic Fury

    Cosmic Fury

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    I'm actually surprised that I've not seen very much of Victini at all, running around in OU. While he may have a full set of weaknesses, his bulk mitigates a lot of them, taking only minor damage from many attacks, when he functions as a tank.

    The following set has met with much more than its fair share of success:

    Cute Stuff (Victini) @ Shell Bell
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Bolt Strike
    - V-create
    - Brick Break
    - Trick Room

    First off, this Victini is a tank, most likely unlike the ones which people like to use (like Scarf/Band sets).

    This set actually takes advantage of the speed drop V-Create provides, to execute a 4-turn string of attacks that usually leaves my opponent's team lying in shreds, if it doesn't win the match outright.

    Before I go into the moves, I'm going to hit on why I gave it the EV's and item I did. First off, his defenses are balanced, and so I've chosen to invest in HP, and put a Shell Bell on it, because the only turns he is NOT attacking are when he's either setting up Trick Room, or switching out after a sweep.

    While this one doesn't necessarily survive the worst of the worst, It does survive a lot, even after a defense drop, because the only things that can touch him after one V-Create under the sun in TR are extremely bulky stall mons, bulky resists to all of his moves, and powerful priority users.

    In the way of priority, the only move that Victini ever has to worry about is Extremespeed, coming from a bulky D-nite that's already set up, if it manages to net a 2HKO before this little devil does. He resists Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, AND Ice Shard, and takes only neutral damage from Quick Attack, which is a joke when it comes to breaking him.

    As for strong SE attacks, he does tend to take those pretty well, but either Stone Edge or Earthquake/Earth Power from a whole lot of stuff sends him packing. Notable users include Terrakion, the odd Haxorus, the occasional D-nite, lots of Landos (he's survived SOME attacks, but I've a feeling the EV's over there were screwed up). Tyranitar is also a major threat, most notably because of the move Crunch/Pursuit more than anything.

    He obviously functions best in the sun, so that he can take his already-powerful signature move to awesome new levels... However, he doesn't need it. As long as he doesn't find himself at the mercy of a rain team and under their weather, he is actually a very competent sweeper.

    Those are pretty much his setbacks. He can easily go toe-to-toe with most hail abusers out there (including Kyurem-B as long as TR is in play along with sun), and is able to effectively sweep a good portion of the metagame.

    His EV's are optimized to be able to tank a hit from either a wall or medium-strength/sweeper with moves that he can take at least twice, and then set up TR... and then proceed to sweep with enough health to deal with your usual priority, if it gets in the way in the first couple turns of his sweep.

    EV's can be switched at need from HP to defense, so that he can better tank more common hits coming his way, but be they in HP or Defense, it's all according to both need and personal preferences. Either way, Victini is naturally very bulky, which makes him a great tank on any sun team.

    As for the moves, they've been chosen for maximum viability. I considered running Final Gambit, but by the time he gets done attacking any foe, he usually has enough damage built up to make it a rather mediocre move. Other good options to run include Willowisp, Thunder Wave (even though this is very counter-productive to any TR set), Reversal (especially late-game, or near the end of his 4-turn sweep), and a variety of other moves.

    However, for this set, Brick Break is the third move, as Bolt Strike is way too good to simply pass up, as its coverage when paired with V-Create is pretty darned good, outside of dragons.

    Overall, as I've mentioned before, this set very much welcomes sunlight, which mitigates his water weakness, as well as opens up a good window of opportunity in establishing a sweep.

    Overall, he's extremely effective against anything that doesn't have access to priority and/or fails to 2HKO him, because once Trick Room gets going, only walls have any hope, which is severely lessened when they have to deal with V-Create, be it in the sun or not.


    Considering all of these things, Victini is very viable in today's meta, if given the correct team support.
  12. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Victini is already C-rank.
  13. Cosmic Fury

    Cosmic Fury

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    My mistake. My find function seems to have bugged out on me today. *edits post*
  14. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Guys, hear me out on this one before you judge it. I'm recommending we add Medicham to at least D-Rank, though I'd like to push it to low C.
    Right, so Medicham has crappy defenses, 60/75/75, meaning it basically can take one or two resisted hits. It has an okay speed, 80, which puts it in the same tier as Mamoswine and Dragonite, and its typing, offensively, is okay as well. It also has a large movepool that consists of Hi Jump Kick, either Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt, the elemental Punches, Trick, and some other options that I won't go into.
    Annnnnd its got Pure Power.
    Let's put it this way. An Adamant Medicham has the equivalent of exactly two points less Attack than an Adamant Kyurem Black. Two points. Yep. And this is backed by a base 130 power STAB attack with 90 accuracy, not to mention that movepool. Basically, slap a Choice Scarf on that and clean up teams.
    Here are some calcs, just to show you what Medicham can do.
    Show Hide

    All of these are with a Jolly, scarved Medicham with a moveset of Hi Jump Kick, Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, and Trick.

    252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (44.91 - 52.99%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 225-265 (58.59 - 69.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 228-272 (61.78 - 73.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 306-362 (94.73 - 112.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Those are coming from an unboosted Scarfer. At the end of a match, its so easy to sack something, send in Medicham, and just spam Hi Jump Kick. You don't need to set up or anything, just remove Ghosts, Scarfers, and the odd Protect user and you're golden.
    Thoughts?
  15. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I think D-rank is fine for Medicham. C-rank would be pushing it a little bit since Azumarill has the same ability, better bulk, and STAB Priority that can be boosted by Rain.
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    medicham is not viable in ou. its pathetic defenses mean switch-in opportunities are rare, and while it's true that it's very powerful, it's also so slow that even when it can switch in, it's likely that it will be outsped and killed anyways. the amount of times medicham will actually get to attack in most battles is not more than 1. of all the nominations i've seen this is by far the least worthy of a slot in the viability rankings. key word: viability. if it's not viable, it shouldn't be in the rankings, so let's leave medicham alone because it will never be used competitively in the bw ou tier.
  17. False Sense

    False Sense

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  18. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    [​IMG]
    Celebi is a Pokemon with so much versatility and strengths yet it has noticeable flaws that hinder it. However, I'm going to make the case of trying Celebi for S-Rank. ​

    It's walling capabilities are amazing and it really can take some ridiculous hits. Having access to Natural Cure and Recover, status isn't going to be a huge problem for Celebi whereas Jirachi will be stuck with a burn or sleep status. It resists many common offensive moves such as Hydro Pump, Earthpower, Volt Switch, Close Combat, Psyshock and Giga Drain. Sadly it will crumble to certain moves such as Scizor's U-Turn, Tyranitar's Crunch and Heatran's Fire Blast. However, keep in mind that Celebi is capable of outspeeding and KO'ing each of these respective Pokemon with proper set-up and move choice. Scizor falls to an HP Fire, Tyranitar will always lose to Celebi's Sunny Day set and Heatran will crumble to an Earthpower. Being able to wall big times threats such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Politoed, Special Landorus, Thundurus-Therian, Starmie, Breloom, Terrakion and Latias, is no small feat. Celebi's defensive capabilities are further augmented when it is thrown on a Drizzle team as it's Fire Type Weakness is halved. But honestly Celebi is pretty impressive depending on how you EV it.
    252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 314-372 (77.72 - 92.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 250-295 (61.88 - 73.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO *Don't forget the -2 SpA Drop*
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 244-288 (60.39 - 71.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 348-412 (86.13 - 101.98%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    Offensively, Celebi is no slouch either. With access to the coveted Nasty Plot, good overall Bulk, great coverage and usable offensive power, Celebi is capable of sweeping entire teams once certain counters and checks are thrown out of the equation. [Though it may not mean much, I can personally testify for that statement].
    Celebi will always be walled by something due to 4MSS. Heatran's can take on non-Earth Power Celebi's while Scizor will eat non-HP Fire Celebi's. Latios can deal with Celebi so as long as it doesn't pack the Shadow Ball.

    In the end, what really sold me for even trying was his versatility. Until you know what that Celebi has and what it functions as, your Scizor just might get roasted with HP Fire while Heatran takes a hit from Earthpower. Multiple roles is a reality for Celebi whether it be walling, sweeping or tanking for the team. His flaws are evident but can be easily played around, due to his strengths.

    Anyways, I totally get it if no one wants Celebi for S-Rank...I'm not even that sold yet. But it'd be pretty cool if I could get some support for this call :P
  19. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 Trickster with the sweet specs
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  20. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I do not support Celebi for S rank. Celebi is very prone to U-turn, one of the most common moves in the game. Not only this, but 4MSS syndrome really hurts the onion because it really has a hard time picking its moves. It doesn't have average syndrome it has a very severe case of it. Also, it is huge Pursuit bait and Grass is not a great defensive type: it has many weaknesses it can be hit hard by. Don't get me wrong, Celebi does a wonderful job of walling the threats you listed, but has too many crippling flaws that prevent it from breaking the barrier and going S rank. A rank s already exactly where it should be.
  21. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Currently experiencing a serious case of Dance Kittens
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    Yeah I can't say much ATM but celebi is not s rank. It just does not have the stats. Base 100 is just not good enough for a defense typing that's a double edged sword. Yeah it can outspeed and kill Ttar or scizor but that just weakens it in some other regards. If you ev it right it can do tons of stuff but its not like genesect or something where every different set is equally viable. Celebi is used for its defense against rain teams and thats about it, that's just what puts it in a rank.
  22. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Celebi for S-Rank? That's interesting, to say the least.

    Honestly, it's kind of a mixed bag here. On one hand Celebi does have that incredible diversity that let's it beat out a ton of it's common counters. On the other, though, it has a huge amount of weaknesses, including a nasty weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit. This makes it rather vulnerable to a lot of threats that it really doesn't want to be weak to, and that really hinders it.

    Now don't get me wrong, Celebi's pros often outweigh those cons. It still has incredible diversity, and is a great special wall, tank, or sweeper, depending on what you want to use. But that huge amount of weaknesses can't be ignored, and while it has a good few ways of working around them, they always have a way of causing it pain. In short, Celebi is a fantastic pokemon, but it falls short of S-Rank. Sorry Tabuu...
  23. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    I've been wondering recently, is Jirachi is a good candidate for S-rank?

    Jirachi is one of the most versatile pokemon in the tier. His analysis pretty much speaks for itself due to having a whopping 7 sets, all of them very good.

    He's incredible at filling a lot of roles on a team such as:

    - Stealth Rocker
    - Sweeper (both physical and special)
    - Scarfer/Revenge Killer
    - WishPasser
    - Wall
    - Excruciatingly annoying paralysis supporter

    And probably even more roles that I didn't mention.

    - As a Stealth Rocker, he sets himself apart from the pack due to keeping momentum (U-turn), and also having the ability to completely ruin the opponent's Stealth Rocker by flinching them to death. Not to mention that fast, frail hazard setting leads run a big risk if they try going toe-to-toe with him, because on the off-chance that it's a Choice Scarf lead and not a Stealth Rocker, Iron Head will ruin them.

    - While Jirachi isn't usually physically sweeping, he does have great coverage and the ability to flinch past all of his counters as a nice perk.

    - The special sweeper is often found on Rain teams, and it's excruciatingly difficult to kill when it effectively only has one weakness and a buttload of resistances. Not to mention, just like the physical attacking variants of Jirachi, this one can easily hax its way through its counters with Thunder paralysis, and even Water Pulse confusion.

    - The Choice Scarfer is a dangerous revenge-killer due to its great coverage and flinching ability with Iron Head. He's also a very good Choice Scarfer due to an SR resist, access to U-turn, and numerous resistances to get in safely.

    - Jirachi is a great WishPasser, because not only does he pass a decent 202 HP, but he's able to come in and do it over and over again, while sustaining himself by taking advantage of his own Wishes. Because a lot of opponents get paralyzed by Jirachi as well, there are a lot of times where he can even get the WishPass off untouched.

    - I'm going to put the last two points into one, because they go hand in hand. Jirachi loves to paralyze opponents with his annoying Body Slam and Thunder Wave. He's also ridiculously hard to kill because of a number of factors including Wish, his typing, great defenses, and numerous flinches. Being ParaFlinched is possibly one of the most annoying things, and because of how difficult it can be to kill Jirachi, he can do it over and over again.

    And one last point is that a lot of supporting pokemon hate having a Choice Scarf Tricked onto them. Jirachi, however, doesn't care. If it has Iron Head, all Tricking a Scarf onto it does is just give it more things to flinch to death.

    Basically, Jirachi is an amazing pokemon who can perform damn near any role on a team, and because of Serene Grace and an awesome movepool to take advantage of it, he's able to muscle past a lot of counters. This is why I think Jirachi should be S-rank instead of A-rank.
  24. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Celebi not to S rank, Jirachi, maybe, but mostly because of its wish passing capabilities. Jirachi shares many crucial characteristics with Ferrothorn, but can perform many different roles decently, it's often important as a defensive pivot thanks to it's typing and it's bulk and speed are among the best in the top pokemon.

    He does get trashed by Landorus so I'm not sure if he performs that well in the current meta compared with times in which Tornadus was on, for example. It should've probably been bumped up back then, right now I think it's a solid option that can remain in A, but it certainly flirts with S sometimes.

    Its interesting to note that Metagross gets bad rep mostly because it pales horribly in comparision with Jirachi, however the fact that Rachi is such a solid pokemon diminishes the comparision quite a bit -Metagross still has a movepool as shallow as hell though-.
  25. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    No way is Celebi S-rank for the reasons that people already mentioned above. However I support Jirachi for S-rank. This thing is very versatile and can win you games where you weren't supposed to win. Very difficult to counter as your counter/check could get paralyzed and Jirachi could either switch out or flinch it to death. Also with the combination of Wish and Protect it has reliable recovery. Unlike other Pokemon it can afford to invest all the EV's into HP and Defense/Special Defense and still take down Pokemon one by one with the combination of Paralysis and Iron Head flinching. Can go on the special side with Calm Mind and it's very effective in rain with good moves to abuse Thunder, Flash Cannon, Water Pulse, Substitute this particular set is very hard to counter as your answer could get confused or paralyzed and hit in confusion while Jirachi can continue Subbing and slowly take down your Pokemon. Great defensive typing Steel is the best defensive typing in the game with a million resistances and great 100/100/100 bulk. Jirachi can use so many sets effectively it's not even funny. I'm surprised it still hasn't been put in S-rank.

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