Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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I dont undestand why Cresselia is on C-Rank when she deserved B-Rank at least.

Cresselia can wall a big part of physicall threats on OU very well (drags / landorus-t /terrakion / mamoswine /loom.. ) also can wall dangerous special threats on the right conditions always such Keldeo (Cresselia +def is 3HKOed from Keldeo Hidden Power Dark iirc), Landorus which can wall super well any variant like an hard counter and LO Latios/Latias. The right condition are just Sunny Day or weatherless at least, if you paired this w/ Ninetales and Dugtrio you're so good to go. Dugtrio for example helps a lot against cores popular such CBTtar + Keldeo or something that takes advantage from this,honestly Cresselia is just very good because walls a lot of threats, Anyone knows that suns stall or balance with this mon can be pretty hard to take, because she never dies, one of the best mixed walls avalaible on OU.
 
I agree toxicroak should remain where he stands because he is too reliant on rain and is commonly walled by stuff like jellicent. It's just too commonly walled and too reliant on rain.
 
I petition for Vaporeon to move from C Rank to the B Rank.

It's walling can be annoying as hell, especially in rain, where it can endlessly stall with Toxic, damage and burn with Scald, and phaze with Roar. This is capped off with Hydration, (which, IMO is a much better ability than Water Absorb as it avoids the omniscent Toxic that destroys walls) allowing it to use Rest and not sleep.

It's the definition of a B rank portion as a supportive Pokemon, as it can wall given the right amount of support (which, in it's case, is usually rain). Electric-type moves only do a bit of damage because of its sky-high Spec. Def.

I believe Vaporeon belongs in the B Rank and is very underrated as a supportive threat.

I agree with moving Vaporeon to B. First of all, Hydration is a ridiculous ability. Not only is Vaporeon a bulky wall with with Wish, a phazing move and the ever so broken Scald, it also cannot be statused under rain and can heal itself to from 1 HP to 464 in one turn.
This makes toxic stalling incredibly annoying and effective and it can also do some hefty damage with Work Up and it's decent SpAtk. If you can't win the weather war and you got nothing to OHKO it (good luck with that), you may or may not be fucked.
 
I dont undestand why Cresselia is on C-Rank when she deserved B-Rank at least.

Cresselia can wall a big part of physicall threats on OU very well (drags / landorus-t /terrakion / mamoswine /loom.. ) also can wall dangerous special threats on the right conditions always such Keldeo (Cresselia +def is 3HKOed from Keldeo Hidden Power Dark iirc), Landorus which can wall super well any variant like an hard counter and LO Latios/Latias. The right condition are just Sunny Day or weatherless at least, if you paired this w/ Ninetales and Dugtrio you're so good to go. Dugtrio for example helps a lot against cores popular such CBTtar + Keldeo or something that takes advantage from this,honestly Cresselia is just very good because walls a lot of threats, Anyone knows that suns stall or balance with this mon can be pretty hard to take, because she never dies, one of the best mixed walls avalaible on OU.
The problem with cresellia

is that she doesn't do anything :(

She can tank lots of hits, but has zero offensive pressence to back it up and is, thus, chansey-esque setup bait
 
The problem with cresellia

is that she doesn't do anything :(

She can tank lots of hits, but has zero offensive pressence to back it up and is, thus, chansey-esque setup bait
Agreed. Cressy might be able to tank hits from Keldeo, but it can't really do anything back, since Ice Beam is the standard. Plus, it needs support from Ninetales to be truly effective (weatherless doesn't work because Cresselia hates Rain and Sand nerfing Moonlight). The only set I would consider using outside of Sun is the Dual Screen set, since Cresselia can set up both screens without fear of being OHKOed by nearly anything.
 

ginganinja

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I wouldn't use CM Cress currently in this meta. For starters, Cresselia has severe 4MSS, and as such, struggles to find room for CM, attacking moves, healing moves, utility moves etc etc. In addition, it currently fears CB Tyranitar (quite common atm) very, very much and requires sun support to really work.

Its best set atm is potentially something with Moonlight / Toxic / HP Fire / Ice Beam which can beat Scizor, discourage set up with Toxic, nail dragons + Landorus-I with IB, and obviously heal shit off with Moonlight.

I don't know if its B rank tho.
 

ginganinja

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Yes, I actually agree that Chandelure should be C rank. It has its (obvious) flaws such as being weak to Pursuit (and Tar is VERY common), walled by Heatran, Rain, ground and Rock weaknesses, and SR weak. Despite this, it can threaten Politoed and Tyranitar with Energy Ball / HP Fight and it makes for an excellent revenge killer / offensive spinblocker for a sun team. Its typing also grants it resistances or immunities to many common Priority moves, such as Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and Extremespeed. Lastly, the Pursuit weakness is mitigated by Sun teams often having access to Dugtrio, which can then trap Tyranitar and win the weather war.

Chandelue requires a bit of support to pull off, but its not a terrible choice for a sun team (Tobes proved that in his RMT) and as such I don't think its 2 much of a stretch to put it into C rank.
 

Meru

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Agreeing with Chandelure for C-rank. Substitute Chandelure with HP Fighting/Fire Blast/Shadow Ball used to be a scary thing to switch into back in BW1. Not sure if the meta has changed but I could easily see it still being viable. Don't see why not, considering HP Fighting 2HKOs all but SpDef TTar (which is waning in popularity due to the current hype of CBtar.

Anybody with more experience than me with this ghastly chandelier, feel free to speak up.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
chandelure sucks almost all the time but it does have its niche uses and 145 base spatk isn't too shabby either. it has a couple relatively major niches in ou which are walling techniloom 100%, beating scizor, beating lucario, beating jirachi, performing well vs sun after dugtrio's gone (e.g. walling non-eq venu all day) and just annoying stuff in general. i ran a set once that was w-o-w/sball/flamethrower/pain split and it was actually kinda cool. ttar was suddenly not a safe switch-in, and once i got heatran out of the way with dugtrio, chandy kinda wrecked sand stall/balance teams. so yeah while i wouldn't necessarily call it good, it has its uses and c-rank is fine by me.
 
I agree that chandelure should be C rank because although it sucks most of the time in comparison to gengar and other special attackers. However, because of sun and the fact it can KO scizor and other steels like ferrothorn. However, rain ruins one of its stabs, but sun makes it interestingly good, but usually overshadowed
 
Actually, Cobalion is THE most physically defensive Steel in the OU Metagame (hell, second behind Steel Arceus in the entire game). He suffers in some extents in that he is landlocked and isn't immune to Fire (Skarmory's and Heatran's claims to fame, respectively), but he's also packing a very respectable movepool, and Volt Switch makes him a fantastic offensive pivot. Of course, he's competing with Landorus-T as a physically defensive pivot but has anyone stopped using physically defensive Pokemon outside of Lando just because exists? No, because he doesn't fit on every team.

I wouldn't say that Lucario is the one that outclasses Cobalion; it's definitely Terrakion who does, but Cobalion isn't a terrific sweeper anyway. He can get the job done but you have much better options. Try the mixed Stealth Rock setter (who does a very great amount of work indeed) or the more physically defensive set. Keep Cobalion in C.
 

alexwolf

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I'd like to propose moving Cobalion down to D-rank. In the current OU meta, this musketeer has no niche honestly. 108 Speed is great, but it has underwhelming power and must set up to pose a bit of a threat. As an offensive Fighting/Steel sweeper, it is outclassed by Lucario, and as a defensive pokemon it is outclassed by the majority of other defensive Steel types that overflow in BW OU. I cannot think of one team in recent times that has managed to use Cobalion successfully, because honestly it lacks power compared to the other huge threats in OU, and its only niche is access to Volt Switch, which isn't that great. Compared to Virizion, which has a niche in the meta as a Landorus counter, Cobalion is just plain outclassed in every role it attempts to do. Due to this, I think the musketeer is deserving more of a place in D rank.
Most of what you said in your post is either false or irrelevant, implying that you don't know how Cobalion should be used. He is not meant to be used as a setup sweeper (invalidating comparsions with Lucario), and it's not supposed to be a defensive Steel-type either. His best set is the Expert Belt one, which plays as a pivot for offensive teams and is a viable replacement over physically defensive Lando-T. The pros of Cobalion include:

  • The ability to check any DD Gyarados, easily OHKOing after SR with Volt Switch
  • Taunt, which allows it to prevent set-up from many defensive Pokemon that he walls, such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory
  • Better Speed, allowing it to act as a revenge killer to many dangerous Pokemon (Thundurus-T, Garchomp, Landorus, and speed tie with Terrakion, OHKOing it if it wins the Speed tie)
  • Beats Mamoswine 1 on 1, a Pokemon that many teams struggle with
  • One of the best offensive checks to Kyurem-B. Beats any choiced Kyu-B, and wins against Sub versions of Kyu-B that lack Earth Power or HP Fire
  • Much better Outrage absorber, as literally no outrage can OHKO it, no matter how many boosts a Pokemon may have aquired
  • Fighting STAB, giving it the ability to threaten much more effectively Chansey, Ferrothorn, and friends
Of 'course Landorus-T is overall the best choice for offensive teams, but Cobalion is definitely a solid choice if your team is in need of any of the pros it has over Landorus-T.
 
Most of what you said in your post is either false or irrelevant, implying that you don't know how Cobalion should be used. He is not meant to be used as a setup sweeper (invalidating comparsions with Lucario), and it's not supposed to be a defensive Steel-type either. His best set is the Expert Belt one, which plays as a pivot for offensive teams and is a viable replacement over physically defensive Lando-T. The pros of Cobalion include:

  • The ability to check any DD Gyarados, easily OHKOing after SR with Volt Switch
  • Taunt, which allows it to prevent set-up from many defensive Pokemon that he walls, such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory
  • Better Speed, allowing it to act as a revenge killer to many dangerous Pokemon (Thundurus-T, Garchomp, Landorus, and speed tie with Terrakion, OHKOing it if it wins the Speed tie)
  • Beats Mamoswine 1 on 1, a Pokemon that many teams struggle with
  • One of the best offensive checks to Kyurem-B. Beats any choiced Kyu-B, and wins against Sub versions of Kyu-B that lack Earth Power or HP Fire
  • Much better Outrage absorber, as literally no outrage can OHKO it, no matter how many boosts a Pokemon may have aquired
  • Fighting STAB, giving it the ability to threaten much more effectively Chansey, Ferrothorn, and friends
Of 'course Landorus-T is overall the best choice for offensive teams, but Cobalion is definitely a solid choice if your team is in need of any of the pros it has over Landorus-T.
Backing this up. Cobalion has a decent niche as a pivot, and that Dragon type resist, backed up by its physical bulk, is awesome. I do find that it lacks power (well, it does have mixed invested base 90 offenses), but the pros outweigh the cons a good deal of the time. It should be noted that while Landorus-T does outclass Cobalion somewhat, using them together is really fun, as they have decent synergy and tons of physical bulk to work with.
 
Dcae might not be used to fight with Cobalion, but he made an interesting point. Nobody uses Cobalion in OU. Not because he isn't good, I use it extensively in UU so I know how interesting he can be. But it's just too hard to find a room for it in a team. No real offensive presence, no recovery, a defensive typing which is interesting but not that amazing.

I've never seen a single Cobalion laddering during the last monthes.

For the same reason, I'd like to nominate Durant for D rank. Like Cobalion, he's fun to use but not in OU. The speed tier is nice, but the attack is not amazing, and he can't tank a single special hit, even neutral.

Even Crobat seems weird in this tier, he's incredibly annoying in UU, but isn't really usable in OU. Low defenses and offenses and the SR weakness are too much to be balanced by the good movepool and the amazing speed.

I like these pokemons, but they really can't be in the same tier as Sharpedo, Victini or Zapdos, which can actually be used in a serious team.

And (I know I've already pointed that) I still can't understand why Donphan lays in D rank while many never OU-used pokemon are C rank. Donphan is not amazing, can be outclassed by Foretress, Tentacruel or Hitmontop as a defensive spinner, but he's still a good choice for various teams that appreciate the combination of spining, SR and the not-powerful-but-often-helpful-anyway Ice Sard. This one is often seen in teams that are quite high on the ladder, and wouldn't do better with another spinner, that shows he's actually viable in OU.
 
No, Cobalion can stay in C-Rank. While it's not a very good set up sweeper, or necessarily the best wall, it's actually a pretty good mixed attacker that can punch holes in and disrupt a lot of teams. It also has access to Volt Switch for momentum and Taunt for shutting down set up, coupled with amazing speed to pull all of it off. It's actually great in Volt-Turn cores because of this, and pairs great with partners like Ladorus-T and Rotom-W. All in all, Cobalion is actually a surprisingly effective pokemon, and while he does have his flaws that make him uncomfortable in the metagame, he can still function well and is a solid C-Rank, in my opinion.
 
I can concur with moving donphan up to low C-Rank with hitmontop. Both are only viable on sun teams and they don't do that bad on them.

I disagree with demoting Durant. Durant is a very potent offensive force in the metagame. Hustle makes his attack superb, and base 109 speed allows him to just barely outpace terrakion and keldeo. He may not have the best coverage, but it is just enough to make it work. I would say that he could be low B-Rank if it wasn't for his low special defense.

EDIT: NOMINATING JOLTEON FOR LOW B RANK
Jolteon is not at all bad in OU. Thanks to his base 130 speed, only rare sppeed demons like accelgor and ninjask can outspeed him. Jolteon may seem outclassed by thundurus-T, but his higher speed not only allows him to outspeed top tier OU threats, but run an effective Choice Specs set. It also can run a baton pass set, by using its great speed to set up substitutes. Jolteon is VERY viable in OU and should be low B-Rank for the reasons I have stated.
 

ginganinja

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Dcae might not be used to fight with Cobalion, but he made an interesting point. Nobody uses Cobalion in OU. Not because he isn't good, I use it extensively in UU so I know how interesting he can be. But it's just too hard to find a room for it in a team. No real offensive presence, no recovery, a defensive typing which is interesting but not that amazing.
I sorta agree with you in regards to Cobalions problems, but I disagree when you mention a demoted based on you not having seen him on the ladder. There are thousands of battles being played daily, just because you havn't see it does not make it not "there". In addition, just because you don't commonly see this pokemon, doesn't actually make it terrible, there have been numerous examples of players using mons from the lower tiers - mons not commonly seen - and doing well with them. Usage shouldn't be the yardstick to measure some of these pokemon by.

Lastly

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.
The recent posts state that it does have a niche in OU (tho a tiny one), its just usually outclassed / struggles in OU for a variety of reasons. However, it CAN be effective (iv personally seen it used well), ergo, it should avoid D Rank.
 
Agreeing that Jolteon should be low B rank. It's amazing speed is very relevant as stated above, and his ability to baton pass subs is relevant. He has good special attack, and access to thunder, and most importantly (at least in my opinion) a speedy volt switch. While usually outclassed by thundurus-t, again, as stated, it can outspend huge threats and can find its place on a team, although thundurus usually fills the role better with access to nasty poly and agility. Therefore, I believe Jolteon deserves low b rank

Also, nice to see Jellicent in a rank :]
 
Okay, so just for reference, the Cobalion set we're talking about is Electrolyte's Mixed Cobalion, like so. Any other set is pretty much useless in OU.
Cobalion @ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 28 Atk / 228 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Taunt / Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Ice]
And we can find Electrolyte's RMT, featuring Cobalion, here. Although its half a year old, its still good.

On to other things, now.
Durant can go into D-Tier. Attack is good, speed is good, but it has little coverage, bad special bulk, and its best ability lowers its accuracy. Hustle isn't that good when you have to sacrifice being able to run stuff like Swords Dance for Hone Claws, and I'm not really sure why you'd use Durant over Scizor, tbh.
Donphan... I've always hated this thing. It doesn't do well in a meta dominated by special attackers, its typing is lackluster, its setup fodder for the most part, etc. I guess it is usable on Sun teams if you need the resist, so I guess its C-Tier, but it really has no other purpose. Man, do we need better Rapid Spinners.
 
I don't like the thought of Jolteon in B, though it does have blistering speed this is easily over turned by a Scarf, Chlorophyll, Priority, Sash or Sand Rush. It's rather frail and has a shallow move pool. There's also enough Pokemon bulky enough to take a move and KO,
 
Its not like Jolteon needs other moves that much:
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunder vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 183-216 (60.39 - 71.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 180-213 (46.75 - 55.32%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 286-337 (88.27 - 104.01%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunder vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 250-295 (67.38 - 79.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There arent many things that like to switch in that and volt switch is always there to scout. Seriously its movepool sucks but Thunder already hits stuff hard enough. It deserves at least B rank for being such a great revenge killer with excellent power and the ability to outrun the entire tier (including adamant gyarados after dragon dance).
 

ginganinja

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Yea, I don't have a problem with Jolteon being low B Rank. Its not a terrible pokemon, and I recently enjoyed good success with Sub pass Jolt, so its kinda cool. It "works" but its something id think hard about using first.
 
The problem with Jolteon is it's coverage sucks. Without HP Ice it's walled by Landorus, Gliscor, Garchomp, etc. Without HP Grass it's walled by Mamoswine, Gastrodon etc. Jolteon also loses to Tyranitar which is really common and Tyranitar can even trap it if it doesn't carry Baton Pass. It also can't do much to Ferrothorn and Blissey/Chansey. Also one shouldn't rely on revenge killing Gyarados with Jolteon, as I think most good players would run enough speed to outspeed Jolteon after a DD. It also has trouble doing anything in the sun as Thunder's accuracy decreases to 50% I believe so it needs rain to really be a threat. Not to mention Jolteon is frail as hell. I think Jolteon should stay in C-rank.
 
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