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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

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    Thunder relies on Rain, and the damage output of Choiced Thunder is nice and all. The only thing is an Electric Choiced move is: Set up bait. Landorus-I, Garchomp, Thundurus etc can all abuse their immunity and start boosting.
  2. GCSChris

    GCSChris

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    The thing that really makes Jolteon good is its incedible is its incredible speed combind with a fairly powerful volt switch
  3. Lolazo

    Lolazo

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    I think Raikou is better than Jolteon thanks to calm mind, coverage (sadly needs rash) and bulk, speed isnt too important (jolteon only outspeed duggy, alakazam and weavile) and doesnt had a rank... i nominate Raikou for C rank at least

    Also keep Durant in C rank, he had many advantages over scizor like
    1 can kill walls like tenta, jelli and skarm (less walled)
    2 can kill and outspeed (non scarf) keldeo, gyarados, heatran, infernape, celebi...
    3 like lucario, can attract pursuit users to do a sweep, or setup in walls like ferro or chansey
    4 scizor can be set up bait for durant (lol)

    Disadvantages

    1 lack of Sdef bulk
    2 no priority and monementum
    3 cant invest in bulk
    4 One trick pony
    5 Latios, Gengar, Alakazam outspeed durant and kill with any move (latios lol) and focus miss (Zam and Gar)

    Durant is a powerful force and Scizor is more utility attacker
  4. sanches br

    sanches br

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    jolteon isn't the set-up bait that it seems to be, first it's faster than chomp, and landy, so until your opponent knows you're using a specs set, he will never let a pokemon that may be OHKOed by HPice in the next turn stay for long. mamoswine is not a also a good switch as it's 2hkoed by specs signal beam after rocks(252spa specs signalbeam on 4/0 mamoswine: 46,2%~54,8%). Also, apart from special landorus, all named set up sweepers aren't that big deal on rain as they can be hardly cockblocked by gastro/skarmory core or revenged killed by keldeo.
    Jolteon can be incredibly useful as an late game sweeper and lo jolteon can deal huge damage to the common sand offense teams. It deserves at least mid-b tier.
  5. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    To me, the real problems with Jolteon are:

    a) So 1 dimensional (come in, spam powerful electric attack)-- there's really not much to its offense besides this. Everything else can carry is just trying to be almost useful.

    b) no real resistances (this is the REAL crux of Jolteon's problems)
    -the fact that the only resistances it has are Electric and Steel (edit: And Flying, though not too many Flying-type attacks in OU Jolt could switch in on...) is a big problem (especially when the vast majority of Steel moves are physical and beat on poor Jolteon pretty damn hard)

    With everything hitting so hard, Jolteon's got basically zero opportunities to come in--

    This is a distinct difference from Pokemon like Gengar, Thundurus-T, and Starmie (or even Breloom), who despite having weak defenses still get opportunities to switch in. Even Espeon and Alakazam, thanks to their spiffy new abilities, have chances to switch in to things like status when few other Pokemon would want to.

    Jolteon's only real opportunity to switch in is on Electric attacks-- but except for Rotom-W and Starmie, Jolteon doesn't have a strong pronounced advantage of users of electric attacks / Thunder Wave-- not compared to most Ground-types anyway. Moreover, against most electric users (bar Rotom-W and Starmie), Jolteon can't do what it does best against them-- spam its Electric attacks.

    Most teams will have an electric-absorber in a Ground type, who generally pack a lot more bulk/resistances (And a lot more opportunities to switch in with advantage against more foes)

    The issue of not having many resistances is a big one in BW; because chances to come in on a kill are fewer and fewer-- and everything hits harder. Furthermore, with even more threats to contend with, the few spots on a team with which to tie together a cohesive net of checks against an expansive threat list are even more valuable. A Pokemon who can't bring any defensive value puts a real strain on everyone else.

    Therefore, Pokemon, like Jolteon, who have little defensive merit-- Pokemon like Infernape, Weavile, et. all have a real hard time making it on teams.

    Looking at the tier list, there are NO Pokemon in the S or A ranks that lack useful resistances except for Alakazam, whose ability gives it other switch in opportunities and extends its longjevity.

    The highest ranked Pokemon on the list with little defensive merit are Dugtrio and Gothitelle, who are trappers with a very special Niche. The next highest ranked is Weavile (oh, another trapper).

    Once you get down to C Rank, you see a LOT more. But the point stands-- not having some combination of good bulk or useful and usable resistances is a BIG set back.

    Basically, if you don't have useful switch-in opportunities that give some defensive benefit to a team-- you will have a HARD time finding a team slot in BW/BW2
  6. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    ^ You forgot to mention Jolteon's flying resistance.
    Granted that now that Tornadus-T is gone it's no longer as valuable as it used to be.
  7. GCSChris

    GCSChris

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    This is ablotutely an issue with Jolteon. However, the thing that make it great is its ability to switch on a predicted switch or a free switch after something had been KOed and get off an incredibly fast and fairly powerful volt switch. After the opponents scarfer is gone it also proves a problem as it will outspend just about anything else. I think Jolteon should be low B rank.
  8. kakuna

    kakuna

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    Jolteon deserves low or mid b. It's speed is really valuable to rain teams because it lets them get away without running a scarfer, as it outspeeds +1 dragonite. Jolteon will not be sweeping standard teams anytime soon, but is powerful nonetheless and a scary threat to face. Constant volt switching to be taken by tyranitar and latios can wear them down. Alternatively jolteon can utilize substitute and baton pass which is an excellent set. Jolteon lures in physical attackers, so a pass to double dance landorus therian, cloyster, or other powerful set up sweepers is pretty useful. Jolteon can also check thundurus-therian decently, which is really hard to do in this metagame. Actually jolteon might fit in mid B rank tbh, it is rather effective when used correctly.
  9. GCSChris

    GCSChris

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    I know everything can do that. I'm saying its best use is to put it in on a free switch and then volt switch to get switch initiative. It had good special attack and using jolteon in this way can be very effective, and thunder is relevant on a rain team. Plus volt absorb is useful, which hasn't been mentioned yet.
  10. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I think Jolteon had more of a niche in the Tornadus-T metagame. Although it couldn't really switch in, Jolteon could at least outspeed Torn-T without the need for a Choice Scarf unlike Thundurus-T, so it was free to run a number of sets without needing to be locked into a move. In the current metagame, I'd say Jolteon's viability has dropped a little - its speed tier isn't so useful now that Tornadus-T is gone, and it's still much less powerful than Thundurus-T in general. I think C-rank is probably the best place for it, though it is one of the better C-rank Pokémon out there. It does have at least two sets worth using - the SubPass set and the EBelt. Although Thundurus-T's EBelt set (Thunder/HP Ice/Superpower/U-turn) is much better at simply breaking down things, Jolteon's EBelt set (Thunder/HP Ice/Signal Beam/Volt Switch) is much more effective against offensive teams because its speed tier gives it the jump over almost everything that doesn't hold a Choice Scarf. I don't really like Choice Specs since it isn't strong enough to get away with mindlessly spamming attacks, and Life Orb cuts its already short life even shorter.
  11. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Jolteon has 110 SpA

    Tornadus Therian-Flying-Regenerator
    HP-79
    Atk-100
    Def-80
    SpA-110
    SpD-90
    Spe-121

    Tornadus has 110 SpA yet many Tornadus Therians were running Choice Specs sets.

    "Oh but it can U-Turn"
    Jolteon can Baton Pass or Volt Switch out

    "Flying is a better STAB move"
    Walled by Steel, Rock types and electrics.

    Electric is walled by Dragons, Grounds, grasses, but there are few grass and ground types in OU and Dragons generally dislike paralysis or Volt Switches

    Jolteon can run a Specs set.
  12. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Making a comparison between the two isn't fair. Has Jolteon ever been close to suspect? Jolteon faces the danger of running afoul of Dugtrio with its Choice set, takes full Spikes and Stealth Rock damage, doesn't have Regenerator to mitigate passive damage and Life Orb recoil, and unlike Tornadus its coverage for bypassing resists is Hidden Power. 100% accurate, yes, but only 70 base power.

    But seriously Regenerator is absolutely insane and comparing anything to Tornadus-T (the only offensive Pokemon, besides Mienshao who is currently UU for all that Regenerator's done, we've ever had with it) because they have similar offensive stats is missing the point.
  13. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Mienshao? Mienshao was OU in BW1. Not that you can compare that to Tornadus-T, though.

    Anyway, I'm really not sure where Jolteon should be. Yes, it's super fast, but toilet paper has better defense than it. Wet toilet paper. I personally like having a super-fast Volt Switch user and its SubPass set is also pretty good. However, your best bets on getting Jolteon in are either after something dies, on an Electric attack, or after using a slow U-turn/Volt Switch from something else. It has resistances to Flying and Steel, but for the former, you're switching in on.... Skarmory? For the latter, you don't want to be switching Jolteon in on Bullet Punch. Now, from my experience, if you get it in safely you can do work with it, but the problem is... Getting it in safely. I wouldn't mind seeing it in low B rank, but I would also be fine with it staying in C rank. I'd say it's at least a high C rank Pokemon, though; it's definitely better than quite a few Pokemon that are in C rank.
  14. jrp

    jrp In this darkness, I will find peace.
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    Tornadus-T and Jolteon are also completely incomparable

    although yes Jolteon can use specs well but you didn't really prove anything by comparing it to torn-t :|


    Torn-T was able to pull off a specs set because of Hurricane being a great spamming move that slaughtered a lot of things as well as regenerator. Electric isn't as spammable as hurricane is, but volt switch is a good scouting move.
  15. Alexander.

    Alexander.
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    I would like to propose Lucario for A-Rank. It's one of the most threatening sweeper nowadays, it has both Attack and Special Attack statistics very high and while it isn't very fast, it has two priority moves whose compensate the lack of speed. It has a ton of chances to setup as well, it can outspeed on mons locked into Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice which are quite common now (think about Choice Scarf Terrakion and Choice Scarf Keldeo for example, two of the best revenge-killers on BW2) and it hasn't a lot of checks too, Landorus-T, Gliscor and Hippowdon are the most common but Landorus-T and Gliscor should pay attention at Ice Punch and Hippowdon doesn't like +2 Close Combat. Other good check are Jellicent and Slowbro but again, they should pay attention at Crunch which can smash them. Lucario hasn't lots of revenge-killer too, Jirachi and Choice Scarf Heatran, Terrakion and Tyranitar are probably the best available but once again Terrakion and Tyranitar doesn't revenge-kill Lucario at 100% since Bullet Punch can destroy them. In short, Lucario is a very threatening sweeper nowadays which has a lot of chances to setup and to sweep teams and it hasn't many mons which can actually stop it. Definitely A-Rank material, imo.
  16. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Lucario suffers 4MSS too hard.

    ESpeed/SD/Bullet Punch/Close Combat-walled by Jellicent/Bulky waters

    But With Espeed/Ice Punch/SD/Close Combat u beat Gliscor, but ur slow still so ur gonna get OHKOed by EQ anyway.

    With Espeed/Crunch/Close COmbat/SD, you beat bulky psychics and Jellicent, but u lose to Gliscor, Scarf TErrakion, etc.

    Thats why I think the above set is the best, because BPunch allows you to KO crucial things like Scarf Terrakion, eliminate all Gengar at +2, and smash Steel weak pokemon


    But because that set is easy to wall, thats why Lucario is a B+ rank pokemon
  17. False Sense

    False Sense

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    It should be noted, however, that pretty much all of those walls CAN be beaten with the proper coverage. Because of that, one can never be too sure if your Lucario check will actually work until you know its whole moveset. I'm not entirely convinced that Lucario should be A-Rank, but it's worth noting that.
  18. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @Choice Specs
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    I have quite a bit of experience with Lucario (I'm writing a RMT as we speak for a team that centers around him and Breloom), and I have to say I can totally see Lucario being A rank. While it's true that he does have problems beating certain threats no matter what his set is, it takes little team support to deal with those counters. For example, if you run Close Combat/Extremespeed/Bullet Punch/Swords Dance like I do, you will be walled by Gliscor, Landorus-T, ScarfToed, Slobro, Jellicent, Chandelure, and all other defensive Pokémon that resist Fighting. But if those Pokémon are still around when you send out Lucario, then you aren't using him right. Lucario shouldn't click Swords Dance until all of those threats are dead or weakened. The same can be said about Landorus or Salamence when the opponent has Celebi and SDef Hippo, respectfully. Lucario is a LATE-GAME SWEEPER. So don't try to sweep until late-game. If you do wait, Lucario will rarely fail you. It really takes minimal support when you think about it, just a bunch of hard-hitting teammates that will wear down its counters. Also works well with BP Celebi and Lati@s who love to lure Tyranitar, who is just ASKING to be set up on (+3 Lucario is nothing to mess with).
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  19. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    [​IMG]
    NOMINATING HERACROSS FOR LOW B-RANK
    Despite its low base 85 speed, heracross has many unique assets that can make him low b-rank. While the popular Choice Scarf set is C-Rank material, Choice band heracross is quite amazing and deserves low B-Rank. Because most people are going to expect heracross to be scarfed, the switch out their life orb terrakion and choice specs keldeo into a more reliable check (such as jellicent). Thanks to the power boost that the choice band provides, heracross has the power to 2HKO jellicent with night slash. Furthermore, thanks to megahorn, latias and slowbro cannot just swith in, and while heracross does have dissapointing speed, it is still enough to outpace magnezone, heatran and tyranitar, allowing heracross to OHKO them with CC. Heracross's power earns him a spot in low B-Rank.​
  20. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    At a quick glance I saw Donphan is on the D-tier. Can anyone please explain to me why? Seems kinda low for Donphan.
  21. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @Choice Specs
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    I still think Donphan is a worse pick for sun teams than Hitmontop, but I agree that they should be in the same tier. Either move Donphan up or Hitmontop down. I also don't think Snorlax deserves C Rank. I've never used his Choice Band set, so I could be wrong, but it seems too niche for C rank. Seems like a perfect Pokémon for D rank to me.
    Jaiho likes this.
  22. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    OK the problem here is the amount of support required. Yes, luke is a late-game sweeper, but that is worse than being a late-game sweeper or a wall-breaker or an early-game sweeper or a revenge-killer, like dragonite (an A-tier mon), for example, is. OK, yeah, sure nothing can stop him once you've removed everything that can stop him. Sorta a tautology, and that's the whole point of team support in removing a sweeper's counters. Doesnt make him any more threatening. And in fact, luke is actually kinda stopped by a lot of guys aside from defensive mons--for example, faster rachi with fpunch, terrakion if no BP, other luke (force speed tie), healthy chomp and keldeo, sableye even as a cool one, any non-frail ghost, etc. Yes, luke is a great late-game sweeper with the right team support, but it's way way too much for an A-tier mon.

    Definitely echoing this--yeah, he's not the best mon out there, but he's a solid physical wall and spinner, I view him as close to as good as forry since he exchanges steel-typing for much better offenses and only really loses out on spikes/tspikes. Or even, call him a hippowdon - SS (yes, major I know) and slack off, with ice shard and RS in exchange. Not a great trade, but not enough to make a difference of 3 ranks surely. High C imo.
  23. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    This is Lucario's biggest obstacle, ScarfRachi mauls Lucario day and night.

    Their is no reason a ghost would be around late game (unless ur ScarfGengar) which is OHKOed by +2 252 Atk+ Bullet Punch. Anti Late game sweepers (trick room sweepers) like Reuniclus are 2HKOed by +2 Espeed.

    Lucario is a great pokemon, but Scarf Jirachi is a cold stop to it. And that thing is getting more common.
  24. kakuna

    kakuna

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    Lucario is the most capable swords dance user in the overused tier. I would use him over garchomp anytime for STAB fighting and extremespeed. I pretty much always use ice punch, the other options just don't seem very good to me. Lucario works well with trapper tyranitar to remove jellicent, latias, celebi, tentacruel, and others from play. He can also work on a rain or sun team quite well, lucario mauls heatran and ferrothorn, some of the biggest threats to those teams nonrespecitvely. Also nobody uses it now but sash lucario is still decent. Counter is really a great move to screw over physical attackers, I don't know why it sees so little use. Lucario probably would fit best in a sort of A- rank.
  25. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @Choice Specs
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    That actually brings up a good question: why is B rank the only one that has +/-? Cause I think the other tiers could use it...
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