1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,239
    Making a comparison between the two isn't fair. Has Jolteon ever been close to suspect? Jolteon faces the danger of running afoul of Dugtrio with its Choice set, takes full Spikes and Stealth Rock damage, doesn't have Regenerator to mitigate passive damage and Life Orb recoil, and unlike Tornadus its coverage for bypassing resists is Hidden Power. 100% accurate, yes, but only 70 base power.

    But seriously Regenerator is absolutely insane and comparing anything to Tornadus-T (the only offensive Pokemon, besides Mienshao who is currently UU for all that Regenerator's done, we've ever had with it) because they have similar offensive stats is missing the point.
  2. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,486
    Mienshao? Mienshao was OU in BW1. Not that you can compare that to Tornadus-T, though.

    Anyway, I'm really not sure where Jolteon should be. Yes, it's super fast, but toilet paper has better defense than it. Wet toilet paper. I personally like having a super-fast Volt Switch user and its SubPass set is also pretty good. However, your best bets on getting Jolteon in are either after something dies, on an Electric attack, or after using a slow U-turn/Volt Switch from something else. It has resistances to Flying and Steel, but for the former, you're switching in on.... Skarmory? For the latter, you don't want to be switching Jolteon in on Bullet Punch. Now, from my experience, if you get it in safely you can do work with it, but the problem is... Getting it in safely. I wouldn't mind seeing it in low B rank, but I would also be fine with it staying in C rank. I'd say it's at least a high C rank Pokemon, though; it's definitely better than quite a few Pokemon that are in C rank.
  3. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    806

    Tornadus-T and Jolteon are also completely incomparable

    although yes Jolteon can use specs well but you didn't really prove anything by comparing it to torn-t :|


    Torn-T was able to pull off a specs set because of Hurricane being a great spamming move that slaughtered a lot of things as well as regenerator. Electric isn't as spammable as hurricane is, but volt switch is a good scouting move.
  4. Alexander.

    Alexander.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    I would like to propose Lucario for A-Rank. It's one of the most threatening sweeper nowadays, it has both Attack and Special Attack statistics very high and while it isn't very fast, it has two priority moves whose compensate the lack of speed. It has a ton of chances to setup as well, it can outspeed on mons locked into Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice which are quite common now (think about Choice Scarf Terrakion and Choice Scarf Keldeo for example, two of the best revenge-killers on BW2) and it hasn't a lot of checks too, Landorus-T, Gliscor and Hippowdon are the most common but Landorus-T and Gliscor should pay attention at Ice Punch and Hippowdon doesn't like +2 Close Combat. Other good check are Jellicent and Slowbro but again, they should pay attention at Crunch which can smash them. Lucario hasn't lots of revenge-killer too, Jirachi and Choice Scarf Heatran, Terrakion and Tyranitar are probably the best available but once again Terrakion and Tyranitar doesn't revenge-kill Lucario at 100% since Bullet Punch can destroy them. In short, Lucario is a very threatening sweeper nowadays which has a lot of chances to setup and to sweep teams and it hasn't many mons which can actually stop it. Definitely A-Rank material, imo.
  5. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    Lucario suffers 4MSS too hard.

    ESpeed/SD/Bullet Punch/Close Combat-walled by Jellicent/Bulky waters

    But With Espeed/Ice Punch/SD/Close Combat u beat Gliscor, but ur slow still so ur gonna get OHKOed by EQ anyway.

    With Espeed/Crunch/Close COmbat/SD, you beat bulky psychics and Jellicent, but u lose to Gliscor, Scarf TErrakion, etc.

    Thats why I think the above set is the best, because BPunch allows you to KO crucial things like Scarf Terrakion, eliminate all Gengar at +2, and smash Steel weak pokemon


    But because that set is easy to wall, thats why Lucario is a B+ rank pokemon
  6. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    411
    It should be noted, however, that pretty much all of those walls CAN be beaten with the proper coverage. Because of that, one can never be too sure if your Lucario check will actually work until you know its whole moveset. I'm not entirely convinced that Lucario should be A-Rank, but it's worth noting that.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,577
    I have quite a bit of experience with Lucario (I'm writing a RMT as we speak for a team that centers around him and Breloom), and I have to say I can totally see Lucario being A rank. While it's true that he does have problems beating certain threats no matter what his set is, it takes little team support to deal with those counters. For example, if you run Close Combat/Extremespeed/Bullet Punch/Swords Dance like I do, you will be walled by Gliscor, Landorus-T, ScarfToed, Slobro, Jellicent, Chandelure, and all other defensive Pokémon that resist Fighting. But if those Pokémon are still around when you send out Lucario, then you aren't using him right. Lucario shouldn't click Swords Dance until all of those threats are dead or weakened. The same can be said about Landorus or Salamence when the opponent has Celebi and SDef Hippo, respectfully. Lucario is a LATE-GAME SWEEPER. So don't try to sweep until late-game. If you do wait, Lucario will rarely fail you. It really takes minimal support when you think about it, just a bunch of hard-hitting teammates that will wear down its counters. Also works well with BP Celebi and Lati@s who love to lure Tyranitar, who is just ASKING to be set up on (+3 Lucario is nothing to mess with).
    Jaiho likes this.
  8. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,389
    [​IMG]
    NOMINATING HERACROSS FOR LOW B-RANK
    Despite its low base 85 speed, heracross has many unique assets that can make him low b-rank. While the popular Choice Scarf set is C-Rank material, Choice band heracross is quite amazing and deserves low B-Rank. Because most people are going to expect heracross to be scarfed, the switch out their life orb terrakion and choice specs keldeo into a more reliable check (such as jellicent). Thanks to the power boost that the choice band provides, heracross has the power to 2HKO jellicent with night slash. Furthermore, thanks to megahorn, latias and slowbro cannot just swith in, and while heracross does have dissapointing speed, it is still enough to outpace magnezone, heatran and tyranitar, allowing heracross to OHKO them with CC. Heracross's power earns him a spot in low B-Rank.​
  9. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,164
    At a quick glance I saw Donphan is on the D-tier. Can anyone please explain to me why? Seems kinda low for Donphan.
  10. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,577
    I still think Donphan is a worse pick for sun teams than Hitmontop, but I agree that they should be in the same tier. Either move Donphan up or Hitmontop down. I also don't think Snorlax deserves C Rank. I've never used his Choice Band set, so I could be wrong, but it seems too niche for C rank. Seems like a perfect Pokémon for D rank to me.
    Jaiho likes this.
  11. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    OK the problem here is the amount of support required. Yes, luke is a late-game sweeper, but that is worse than being a late-game sweeper or a wall-breaker or an early-game sweeper or a revenge-killer, like dragonite (an A-tier mon), for example, is. OK, yeah, sure nothing can stop him once you've removed everything that can stop him. Sorta a tautology, and that's the whole point of team support in removing a sweeper's counters. Doesnt make him any more threatening. And in fact, luke is actually kinda stopped by a lot of guys aside from defensive mons--for example, faster rachi with fpunch, terrakion if no BP, other luke (force speed tie), healthy chomp and keldeo, sableye even as a cool one, any non-frail ghost, etc. Yes, luke is a great late-game sweeper with the right team support, but it's way way too much for an A-tier mon.

    Definitely echoing this--yeah, he's not the best mon out there, but he's a solid physical wall and spinner, I view him as close to as good as forry since he exchanges steel-typing for much better offenses and only really loses out on spikes/tspikes. Or even, call him a hippowdon - SS (yes, major I know) and slack off, with ice shard and RS in exchange. Not a great trade, but not enough to make a difference of 3 ranks surely. High C imo.
  12. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    This is Lucario's biggest obstacle, ScarfRachi mauls Lucario day and night.

    Their is no reason a ghost would be around late game (unless ur ScarfGengar) which is OHKOed by +2 252 Atk+ Bullet Punch. Anti Late game sweepers (trick room sweepers) like Reuniclus are 2HKOed by +2 Espeed.

    Lucario is a great pokemon, but Scarf Jirachi is a cold stop to it. And that thing is getting more common.
  13. kakuna

    kakuna

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Lucario is the most capable swords dance user in the overused tier. I would use him over garchomp anytime for STAB fighting and extremespeed. I pretty much always use ice punch, the other options just don't seem very good to me. Lucario works well with trapper tyranitar to remove jellicent, latias, celebi, tentacruel, and others from play. He can also work on a rain or sun team quite well, lucario mauls heatran and ferrothorn, some of the biggest threats to those teams nonrespecitvely. Also nobody uses it now but sash lucario is still decent. Counter is really a great move to screw over physical attackers, I don't know why it sees so little use. Lucario probably would fit best in a sort of A- rank.
  14. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,577
    That actually brings up a good question: why is B rank the only one that has +/-? Cause I think the other tiers could use it...
    Jaiho likes this.
  15. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    Yeah,

    A- could be like
    Kyurem (Normal)
    Volcarona
    Lucario
    Hippowdown
    Mamoswine

    A could be like
    -Salamence
    -Dnite
    -Breloom
    -Tentacruel
    -Jellicent
    -Thundurus Therian
    -Rotom Wash

    A+ Could be
    Lando T (only because its able to counter an S-Rank sweeper with no hassle).
    -Ferrothorn (beats rain lacking Keldeo, Thundy T has to use that shaky Focus Blast)
    -Kyurem Black
    -Latios
  16. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,389
    [​IMG]
    NOMINATING ROTOM-H FOR LOW B-RANK
    Sorry for trying to move so many pokemon up to low B-rank, but rotom-h really deserves it. The current metagame is quite kind to it. Although rain and SR really hamper its effectiveness, rotom-h is a great check to heatran, jirachi, megnezone and many more dangerous threats. In the sun, its overheat's power reaches incredible power, OHKOing many pokemon. Unlike heatran, Rotom-h has a usable secondary STAB in overheat, meaning that bulky waters cannot switch-in as easily. While it does have its shortcomings, rotom-h's bulk, power and fantastic typing are enough to move him up to Low B-Rank.​
  17. dcae

    dcae naughty list

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,169
    I'm willing to help organize the pokemon into + and - for the respective ranks if the help is necessary.
  18. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,577
    I disagree. Hitmontop is a better spinner than Donphan, it's as simple as that. Donphan tries to do far too much at once, since people expect it to be able to revenge kill, be a physical wall, set up rocks, spin, and be a strong physical attacker with Earthquake. You can say Odor Sleuth on Donphan is better than Foresight, but that just isn't true, since Donphan has no room for it. It absolutely needs Earthquake, Rapid Spin, and Ice Shard, which leaves one slot, which most people fill with Stealth Rock. Using Odor Sleuth is useless on Donphan since Jellicent, Gengar, Frosslass, and Chandelure all beat it (Chandelure wins if Sturdy is broken, which it should be if you have to spin, unless you predict the switch and Earthquake). Gengar and Jellicent laugh at Donphan, and so does Frosslass, however rare it may be. At least Hitmontop can do serious damage to them once they've been hit by Foresight.

    0 Atk Hitmontop Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 166-196 (63.6 - 75.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Whereas

    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 156-185 (51.31 - 60.85%) -- 90.63% chance to 2HKO

    So Hitmontop will always beat Gengar. As for Jellicent:

    0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 159-187 (39.35 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 69-82 (22.69 - 26.97%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

    So Hitmontop wins unless it gets burned, which is about the same as a coin flip (49% to not be burned after two Scalds). Donphan, meanwhile, can't touch Gengar with anything but Ice Shard or (lol) Head Smash, and is 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball. Scald is a 2HKO on Donphan, whereas Earthquake in only a 3HKO (and Jellicent is faster).

    Plus, Intimidate is, in my opinion, a more useful ability than Sturdy, given that Hitmontop already has good special bulk. Personally I think they should be in the same tier, but at the same time, I think your reasons why are flawed.
    Jaiho likes this.
  19. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,303
    Jellicent can just WoW Hitmontop and unless you use fore sight Hitmontop can't damage Jelicent with CC because Ghost types are immune to Fighting type moves.
    Gengar always uses Substitute or Protect Disable so you can't 2HKO it with Sucker Punch.
    Hitmontops only niche is Foresight Rapidspin outside of that its just a horrible pokemon in OU Intimidate is cool but Hitmontops bulk sucks outside of that and it can't really damage anything that is not weak to fighting type moves not to mention that CC is a horrible move for a defensive pokemon and sucker punch is an equally horrible coverage move.
  20. Spirit

    Spirit
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,257
    If you're not running foresight on hitmontop, you're doing it wrong. Hitmontop is actually pretty decent, it's a solid counter to tyranitar, and can check mamoswine, scizor, and terrakion fairly well. This is especially useful for sun teams, as all those pokemon can be very troublesome for them. On top of that, ferrothorn can't setup on it because of its STAB CC (unlike other spinners). Hitmontop has a solid niche and can almost always get off a spin due to foresight and its good bulk. Therefore, hitmontop should stay in C-rank. It's no way as bad as donphan because it can take hits from both side of the spectrum and not be spin blocked, it's also one of the few defensive fighting-types available.
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,268
    @Tornadus-T v. Jolteon comparison

    This is totally fair in order to illustrate Jolteon's power. Someone was saying Thunder's power/acc. combined with Jolteon's SpA is insufficient-- clearly that is not the case.

    That said, obviously there are a lot of things that draw a clear divide between Jolteon and Tornadus-T.

    The first is no immunities to Flying. The same problem Volt Switch has v. U-turn shows up to bite it in the ass here too. When spamming STAB attacks from a choice poke, no enemies being immune is CRITICAL.

    Especially in the case of Thunder/Hurricane, when you have a powerful 30% chance secondary effect that can make your attack very threatening even to enemies that resist. Latios/Latias REALLY don't want to switch in to Jolteon's Thunder, and if Ground-types and Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod/etc. foes had to deal with the same 30% chance of paralysis and halved damage-- they really wouldn't want to either.

    Of course the other defining difference-- which was high lighted in my earlier post-- is switch-in opportunities. Fighting/Bug resists and a Ground immunity, coupled with 79 / 80 / 90 resistances and Regenerator giving it leeway to fuck up prediction a bit-- Torn-T's switch-in potential is completely incomparable with Jolteon's. The ability to switch in and out of battle frequently is CRITICAL for a choice locked pokemon.

    Jolteon's failings in both of the above respects seriously detract from its usability.

    That said, we're talking about Jolteon in B- not being banned to Ubers, so being inferior to Torn-T is not at all a case against putting it in B-.
  22. Takion

    Takion

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    142
    Just want to state something about the Lucario Vs. Jirachi

    Basing on the spread for March, most jirachis are specially defensive or others...(whatever that is)

    | Spreads |
    | Careful:252/0/0/0/224/32 15.968% |
    | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 6.965% |
    | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.149% |
    | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 3.971% |
    | Careful:252/0/0/0/236/20 2.878% |
    | Timid:252/0/0/4/0/252 2.818% |
    | Other 63.251%

    If were taking into account a S.Defensive Jirachi then

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 497-585 (123.01 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    But ofcourse if the Jirachi is invested in speed then yes Lucario looses. But basing on march statistics, Ill take my chances by keeping it. Jellicent makes a great partner to Lucario. As it switch in on its counters and trap and weaken them.
  23. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,389


    Gonna bring these 2 post back up for discussion.

    Also, Lucario is fine where it it. Although it is a force to be rekoned with, it has serious 4MSS, meaning that no matter what coverage move you run, lucario will be walled. Furthermore, with smart prediction, tyranitar, a pokemon lucario can normally set up on, can attack the lucario user with superpower as it sets up a swords dance.
  24. dcae

    dcae naughty list

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,169
    I don't think Heracross deserves to be promoted to a higher rank because in OU,it is outclassed in thr Scarfing and Band role by Terrakion, and the boosting sets as well. The one draw Heracross has over Terrakion is Guts, which I think is an excellent ability, but that makes it have the sole niche of CB Heracross with Guts, which probably deserves mid to high C rank, nothing higher.
  25. jacaldwell

    jacaldwell

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    I think Heracross is def. B rank material.

    C Rank description - Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

    The argument you presented comparing Heracross to Terrakion is the only valid argument for keeping him in C Rank in my opinion. However would you describe it as completely eclipsed? Heracross has better resistances/weaknesses, including being able to take a bullet punch (among other things). Also with sleep talk can absorb sleep for the team and is an awesome Breloom COUNTER which is not easy to do. And as we all know Guts is an awesome ability and makes Heracross truly scary to face. Even at just +1 he ohkos so many common OU pokes.

    This describes him MUCH better.

    B Rank description - Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)