Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Shurtugal]

kingdra is also situational and i would just pick a universal rain check in general as a better answer than kingdra who is a liability outside of opposing rain. just my opinion; i know it can be used wonderfully if sucessful on a team majorly weak to rain; but, i seriously would prefer jut using something that does more.

also, kingdra is outclassed by majority of OU dragons in general for the role of being a dragon like others mentioned. just my 2 cents

 

[Takion]

Can a pokemon who has crippling weakness to stealth rock qualify for A rank? I was thinking about Volcarona but that 4x weakness to rock...

 

[Schpoonman]

Tabuu, I think you're not giving Kingdra enough credit. Yes, he's stopped cold by a healthy Ferrothorn (Modest LO Hydro Pump does 36% minimum [in the rain, herpaderp] to 252/168, which is enough to finish it off when it's weakened if it tries to switch in), but it and specially defensive Empoleon are its only stops outside of a very good stall team. He is THE anti-rain Pokémon, which is honestly a stupendous offensive niche to hold.

I get that I'm reinforcing his place in B-tier, but that is not a bad tier by any stretch, and I just kinda feel like you guys are taking a dump on him when he doesn't really deserve it. And I realize this entire post is redundant and I don't know why I spent all this time typing it out and doing calcs.

TL;DR Kingdra is the ultimate niche Pokémon and if your rain team is not prepared for him you will be shat upon.

 

[Schpoonman]

Can a pokemon who has crippling weakness to stealth rock qualify for A rank? I was thinking about Volcarona but that 4x weakness to rock...

I think he was voted B because of how desperately he needs Rapid Spin support (not just Rocks, but Spikes and Toxic Spikes as well) + unless you carry Hurricane you get crippled by Rain.

 

[gengarsnemisis]

Really Kingdra can do so much more than just counter rain teams guys...The LO rain dance set also makes him an amazing sun counter as well, neudering a sun team and than sweeping with draco meteors/pulses or ice beams. It also makes him not just dead weight against a balanced team as after a rain dance he cant be revenged by a scarfer and can blast off rain boosted stab water moves, which backed by a modest nature and lo can do about 40% to ferrothorn, which is pretty impressive. And remember, unlike other dragons kingdra has stab water moves. So to say he's completely outclassed by other dragons except against rain teams I really disagree with. As for its ranking I think B fits it perfectly well, as its semi-low offensive stats and fratility really hold him back from being a top threat.
tl;dr: Keep Kingdra in B, but he's more than just a rain counter

 

[Takion]

Is there a reason as to why wobuffet is not on here? Smogon has him in the OU tier

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/wobbuffet

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Its probably because wobbuffet is pretty much non-existant in the current metagame, although it is de-facto OU because of its BL status. It and Staraptor should be tiered in my opinion, besides they are somewhat use able.

A case could probably be made for wobb and staraptor to be both C tier, they both have niche's but they are almost invisible. In fact Staraptor is pretty much just outclassed by upper tier pokemon, I might even say it could be D tier.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

I actually think Staraptor is quite underrated. Whilst the fact it gets worn down so easily due to recoil and a Stealth Rock weakness means it won't be able to get out of C-tier, from my experience it can become a living hell for the opponent if they don't have a solid check, which are far and few between. Between Brave Bird, Double Edge and Close Combat, it's almost impossible for any offensive team to get a safe switch in, as most of its members are easily OHKOd by the appropriate move. I've been using Choice Scarf Staraptor on one of my HO teams recently, and it's a real showstopper. Obviously physical walls such as Skarmory and Hippowdon are issues, but you can U-turn out to something like Gothitelle to deal with them.

 

[Bent1ey]

Thats Fair on the TechBreloom

The mamo argument can go either way as I said a Air Balloon can help lucario in the meta. There are Jollycarios as well:

252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 420-494 (116.34 - 136.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I was wondering if Mamo OHKOs Luke with Superpower, because if that's the case the Air Balloon argument is mooth -unless they run Stone Edge instead of Superpower, but that's subpar imo-.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't think Xatu should be ranked higher than Espeon. Sure, it can be splashed more easily on most teams, but Espy makes full Baton Pass chains a pretty powerful force. It can also pass Calm Mind in mini-chains.

So yea, Espeon should be Rank B. Nothing can duplicate its role of passing Calm Mind while blocking hazards, and it makes an entire play-style (as degenerate as it is) viable.

 

[erisia]

In regards to Togekiss, I think C-tier is a pretty good place for it to be.

"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."

It can attempt to fill the same para-flinching niche that Jirachi does with Body Slam, Air Slash, Roost, and a coverage move, but the latter takes the cake most of the time due to its resistances, lack of SR weakness, and the ability to set SR itself if desired. Nasty Plot Togekiss works really well in combination with Jirachi however, and it can break through most opponents if you can paralyse them in advance. This isn't too hard if you have something like Ferrothorn, Shuffler Dragonite or a Jirachi of your own in the wings. Unfortunately it's a little eclipsed by Tornadus-T if Drizzle is up, but Togekiss is somewhat better at staying in and sweeping through teams in the late game due to Roost, better standing bulk, and the excellent Nasty Plot.

If Togekiss got Serene Grace Hurricane, of course, then that would be another story... :p

 

[Shurtugal]

kingdra can sweep unprepare rain teams as much as riolu can sweep unprepared stall teams js. i don't think its ability to manhandle rain is worth its liability. especially since prepared rain teams can beat it or simply dent it and stuff. its great antimeta, but liability elsewhere. can't do much to sun, to hail, to weatherless, or even sand imo.

i actually want to say i <3 riolu, but i would never use it on a serious team. only if i was bored ;3

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Staraptor looks like a pretty shitty check to Breloom:

+1 (intimidate) 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 255-302 (81.99 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 (intimidate) 244+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 237-280 (76.2 - 90.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Shurtugal]

The thing with Staraptor is it pretty much needs a scarf to be somewhat viable.

It might not have a lot of switch ins, HOWEVER, Tornadus-T is such a threat that every team carries a flying resist and SR. This means Staraptor is more or less shitty atm. When Torn-T gets banned it might get better, but for right now it is not that great. I daresay it should go to D Tier.

 

[Wizarus]

Skarmory, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi are the only things that can safely switch into Staraptor in that are viable in OU. This is a poke that has a chance to OHKO 4/0 Landorus-T through Intimidate after rocks. I think it's at least C-Tier worthy.

 

[Shurtugal]

Rotom-W switches into BB safely. and Jirachi is SUPER common for checking Torn-T. Especially if you play weatherless, which was my point. They might be FEW, but they are certainly used a lot (Wash and Rachi I mean). Which was why I said Raptor is losing out. Cause its counters are most used to wall / check / counter Torn-T, which is a huge threat atm otherwise.

 

[Wizarus]

Rotom-W will almost never want to switch into Staraptor. CB Reckless Double-edge will always OHKO, and its Choice Scarf Returns will always 2HKO. Even its Choice Scarf CCs come dangerously close to 2HKOing Specially Defensive Rotom-W, and U-turn just means good match-ups. It can't switch into anything but BB(Actually it can't even switch into that, CB Reckless BB will always 2HKO SPD Rotom-W after rocks)

Jirachi is common, that's why I listed it as one of it's counters. Even still, CB Staraptor 2HKOs specially defensive Jirachi, and CM Rain Jirachi with CC 53% of the time after rocks.

 

[Schpoonman]

I've enjoyed OHKOing a great deal of Rotom-Ws with CB Double-Edge. Hell, Brave Bird 2HKOs any nonphysically-defensive Rotom-W (does a minimum of 51%). Reckless makes Staraptor insanely powerful; more powerful than Salamence and Dragonite. Seriously. I did the calcs, and Jolly Brave Bird is more powerful than Adamant Outrage from both of them.

 

[Shurtugal]

choice band? i was referring to the scarf set since thats the only one I ever see used.

if you predict correctly I guess Raptor Band is about as menacing as Band Rakion but with lower speeds, huge recoil damage, and a weakness 4 rocks. Band Rak does most of the same things and threats more of the meta (seriously, if you predict X to come in you can SE half of them). The thing with that bird is that its sr weak and frail (and lets not forget the damned recoil damage = lolpriority) while Terrakion is neither of these things. (since terrak can switch from BP and not worry about SR damage....)

The only difference is that Star can spam a flying STAB. Wouldn't Specs Tornadus-T work just a bit better in this area? Sure its not hitting on the physical side but in all fairness if you predict things like Rotom-W to switch into Specs Nadus you can 2HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks; Just like Double Edge.

My beef with DE is that its recoil w/ reckless + SR + frailness = can't really switch in much. Not being able to switch into attacks sucks whereas Tornadus-T or Terrak retain bulk to do so and still have that power Raptor has.

Jirachi is also super common; not to mention speed tie with JOLLY band versions (which im unsure supports the band calcs you gave earlier, and it outspeeds adamant versions). Rachi also has a scarf set and can wreck band, it gets TWave, which screws you, and it gets a strong STAB.

Do I need any more reason to hate this bird?

 

[CTC]

i actually want to say i <3 riolu, but i would never use it on a serious team. only if i was bored ;3

Tsk Tsk Tsk, so the truth comes out. After having seen me sweep countless teams with riolu, how can you say that Shurt? </3
Also Staraptor with scarf and final gambit is a great hole opener denting steels for a sweeper. Underused and underrated imo

 

[Wizarus]

choice band? i was referring to the scarf set since thats the only one I ever see used.

if you predict correctly I guess Raptor Band is about as menacing as Band Rakion but with lower speeds, huge recoil damage, and a weakness 4 rocks. Band Rak does most of the same things and threats more of the meta (seriously, if you predict X to come in you can SE half of them). The thing with that bird is that its sr weak and frail (and lets not forget the damned recoil damage = lolpriority) while Terrakion is neither of these things. (since terrak can switch from BP and not worry about SR damage....)

The only difference is that Star can spam a flying STAB. Wouldn't Specs Tornadus-T work just a bit better in this area? Sure its not hitting on the physical side but in all fairness if you predict things like Rotom-W to switch into Specs Nadus you can 2HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks; Just like Double Edge.

My beef with DE is that its recoil w/ reckless + SR + frailness = can't really switch in much. Not being able to switch into attacks sucks whereas Tornadus-T or Terrak retain bulk to do so and still have that power Raptor has.

Jirachi is also super common; not to mention speed tie with JOLLY band versions (which im unsure supports the band calcs you gave earlier, and it outspeeds adamant versions). Rachi also has a scarf set and can wreck band, it gets TWave, which screws you, and it gets a strong STAB.

Do I need any more reason to hate this bird?

It needs support(Rapid Spin). I don't hear people saying Band Dragonite and Scarf Salamence sucks because they have a SR weakness, no you use Rapid Spin with them.

There are key differences to Tornadus-T and Staraptor. Tornadus-T needs rain, doesn't have a secondary STAB, is specially based, and doesn't come close to 2HKOing Jirachi with Superpower. Band CC from Staraptor can 2HKO SPD Jirachi after rocks, so yes, it can 2HKO Jolly Jirachi on the switch if it wins the speed tie, and Jirachi doesn't have Choice Scarf. And I will say again, all of Rotom-Ws most common sets can't switch into Staraptor at all. SPD Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by CB Brave Bird.


B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.


By definition, Staraptor belongs in B-Tier. D-Tier is far too low for Staraptor.

 

[Tressed]

My only problem with Staraptor is the massive problem of switching in. Its bulk is weak, and it doesn't have a large amount of weaknesses. Getting Staraptor into the fight is hell. I had to use Volt Switch + Rapid Spin Forretress to get it in, because if Staraptor takes a hit, it tends to die, very, very quickly. It's good, though, as those Brave Birds hurt like hell. I personally like BandRaptor with BB/CC/UTurn/Quick Attack, and Quick Attack was quite useful for nailing potential checks, such as weakened Latios. However, I do feel as though it wasn't worth it a lot of the time, and I would have rather gone with something a little scarier at times (BandMence XD)

 

[Reymedy]

Having 75% with Staraptor and 75 with Mence/Nite is clearly not the same. You can't compare it, moreover because their coverage is insane, Staraptor's one is not so great because the options he can run are really limited.
Dragonite also got a way to recover, Mence too even if it's not so used. They also got a pretty usable SpA stat, I think Staraptor is pretty ridiculous in comparison.

The typing also, excuse me, but Staraptor typing is just awful. You can't compare it to a Dragon Typing.
Band Staraptor is slow, really slow thus gets killed by both priorities (it does resist 0 priorities) and other Scarfer.

I only find the Final Gambit set filling a real niche.

 

[Wizarus]

Having 75% with Staraptor and 75 with Mence/Nite is clearly not the same. You can't compare it, moreover because their coverage is insane, Staraptor's one is not so great because the options he can run are really limited.
Dragonite also got a way to recover, Mence too even if it's not so used. They also got a pretty usable SpA stat, I think Staraptor is pretty ridiculous in comparison.

The typing also, excuse me, but Staraptor typing is just awful. You can't compare it to a Dragon Typing.
Band Staraptor is slow, really slow thus gets killed by both priorities (it does resist 0 priorities) and other Scarfer.

I only find the Final Gambit set filling a real niche.

I could see if the pokemon outclassing Staraptor were coming from B-Tier, but all the pokemon mentioned that would outclass Staraptor are A and S ranked.

Locking yourself into Outrage is actually a thing, and the only other viable physical Dragon-Type move is Dragon Claw, which isn't exactly powerful. You're also Lowballing Starptor's coverage. Flying/Normal with CC gets insane coverage, to the point where only 4 pokemon viable in OU are switching into Band Staraptor without dying. 100 Speed isn't "really slow" at all. Of course scarfers are going to outspeed it, scarfers are meant to outspeed everything without a Choice Scarf or modifiers.

Edit: Just wanted to point out that Staraptor also gets Roost, for what it's worth. Although I really can't speak for 3 attacks + Roost set being viable, since I haven't used the set.

 

[Siggu]

You're also Lowballing Starptor's coverage. Flying/Normal with CC gets insane coverage, to the point where only 4 pokemon viable in OU are switching into Band Staraptor without dying.

And if we consider ALL the pokémon available in the games, the only one that resists Staraptor's Normal/Flying/Fighting coverage is... Rotom

Much like a previous post said, I think the only problems Staraptor has are its reliance on recoil moves and its frailness. If it manages to switch in... good luck