Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Super Mario Bro]

The only reason Thundurus-T is "underwhelming" against most teams right now is because the meta is entirely based on speed creep. It can't outspeed Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Gengar, Tornadus-T, Starmie, etc, which hinders its offensive presence pretty significantly.

In a slower, Gen IV-esque meta, I think Thundurus-T would be broken. It breaks walls like no other.

 

[lordkira]

What do you guys think about Dragonite as of now?
With Genesect gone, do you believe Dragonite has earned back significant amount of breathing space? I was just curious as some have deemed him to be a S-tier pokemon even when Genesect was around (though I'd disagreed then).

 

[Sacaen]

What do you guys think about Dragonite as of now?
With Genesect gone, do you believe Dragonite has earned back significant amount of breathing space? I was just curious as some have deemed him to be a S-tier pokemon even when Genesect was around (though I'd disagreed then).

Multiscale is still easily broken by the omnipresent SR which alone keeps it A rank. But on top of that Dragonite has to worry about sand, hail, getting hit while switching in, and burns/paralysis if not lum berry'd. Mamoswine is still relatively common as is the multitude of steels that can make hurdles to jump through before dragonite can sweep. On top of this, Dragonite still has a very low base speed, and many times it needs to get 2 dragon dances to be able to ensure a sweep without some HP-Ice wielding scarfer coming in and ruining it's day, or really any other scarfed dragon because they all outspeed +1 dragonite.

Not saying Dragonite is bad, it can still be very threatening and is a solid A tier pokemon thanks to being as bulky as it is (with the proper support), but multiscale being negated so easily and it's low base speed keep it from being S tier, genesect or not. Imo.

 

[LilOu]

What do you guys think about Dragonite as of now?
With Genesect gone, do you believe Dragonite has earned back significant amount of breathing space? I was just curious as some have deemed him to be a S-tier pokemon even when Genesect was around (though I'd disagreed then).

Check the post 1131, there i suggested Dnite for S Rank but no one responded lol, if you want to read and be with me check that post pls. There i explain the reasons why Dnite must be in S Rank

 

[Bent1ey]

Dragonite could be either a top A rank or a S rank, it really depends on how you rate it. You can play a powerful support set which sets it apart from other set up sweepers such as Volcarona, so the argument about how easy or not Multiscale its a bit reductive.

 

[Psycho Cut]

I think Conkeldurr should be moved up to B Tier, at least. It's an extremely powerful Pokémon with a great boosting move in Bulk Up. It has Mach Punch to bypass its low speed, Drain Punch as a powerful STAB which allows it to regain health, which is especially awesome in conjunction with Flame Orb damage and it has a choice of coverage moves for the last slot. Payback is a good option, allowing you to smash ghosts in the face and Ice Punch, a new gift from BW2, really expands Conk's coverage, allowing it, most importantly, to hit almost all flying types for SE Damage, most notably Dragonite, Landorus(-T), Salamence and Xatu. What's more is that it can be phenomenally bulky. With maximum investment in Specially Defence, Conk can actually survive numerous Special Attacks, even SE ones, and proceed to KO back. Finally, it has a fantastic ability in Guts, which not only boosts its attack to even more insane levels, but also allows it to act as an excellent status absorber, happily switching into Will-o-Wisps and even the dreaded Spore if its Flame Orb has already activated.

I'd say its only main shortcoming it the fact it is destroyed by one of OU's most common threats, Tornadus-T, but even that won't be too hasty (pun not intended) to switch in, in fear of a SE Ice Punch.

 

[LilOu]

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").

Dragonite CAN sweep significant portions of the metagame with little support (a rapid spinner)

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.

As i showed, it can use multiple sets with effectiveness.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I would not go as far as to say Dragonite requires "little support". You need a spinner, sure, but you also have to get rid of Mamoswine (I guarantee you just running a spinner that can also check/counter Mamo is not enough) AND make sure damaging weather is not on the field (that or use Leftovers, but Lum Berry is far too beneficial to give up). In this metagame, you're going to have to run Dragonite on a Rain or Sun team or use Leftovers (the latter of which is a huge opportunity cost) in order to avoid Sand or Hail breaking Multiscale. This is ignoring Steel-types (Skarm/Forry/Ferrothorn/etc.) or really bulky Pokemon (i.e. Landorus-T) that can sponge Outrages, which only adds on to the support Dragonite needs. I would not define all of this support as "little support", and thus, Dragonite should not be S rank.

 

[LilOu]

I would not go as far as to say Dragonite requires "little support". You need a spinner, sure, but you also have to get rid of Mamoswine (I guarantee you just running a spinner that can also check/counter Mamo is not enough) AND make sure damaging weather is not on the field (that or use Leftovers, but Lum Berry is far too beneficial to give up). In this metagame, you're going to have to run Dragonite on a Rain or Sun team or use Leftovers (the latter of which is a huge opportunity cost) in order to avoid Sand or Hail breaking Multiscale. This is ignoring Steel-types (Skarm/Forry/Ferrothorn/etc.) or really bulky Pokemon (i.e. Landorus-T) that can sponge Outrages, which only adds on to the support Dragonite needs. I would not define all of this support as "little support", and thus, Dragonite should not be S rank.

Finally! This is what i wanted, someone that can refuse what i say with real arguments. You are right, Dragonite needs great support in order to sweep but it is still one of the most powerful dragons there.
IMO you only need the multiscale to set up a ddance the first turn, then it doesnt matter if the sandstorm breaks it cause +1 Dnite wrecks. Obviously you have to take care about ice shard and other priority users like scizor.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'd say Dragonite could have been S in the latter period of BW, when all the major baddies (like Thundurs-i) were banned, and BW2 had yet to come out-- also Mamoswine and Bronzong were in much lower popularity. BW2 environment is a bit too fast paced offensive for Dragonite to stand at the top.

 

[Arcticblast]

The end of BW1 was absolutely crawling with Sand though; the most popular team archetype was Sand Volt-Turn with Scarf Landorus (a Dragonite check itself!).

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

*sighs* Man, this thread hasn't been touched in a while!

Anyways, I'd like to nominate Espeon for B-Rank. Espeon is a pretty good Pokemon: it is hands down the best Baton Pass receiver in the game and is the must-have on any BP team, bouncing back hazards like a boss and setting up CM. It is also a decent fit on offensive teams that need a way to block hazards and cannot afford to run a spinner. Espeon also can set up Dual Screens nicely and use CM to be a decent attacker. While Xatu is generally better for a support role and fighting dem Ferros and Skarms and vice versa, Espeon has its place with its offensive presence, great speed (outspeeds Terrakion, which is nice), and overall the choice for offensive and BP teams. It isn't worse than Xatu: the two play differently and it depends on which is more necessary. Espeon is a great Pokemon who should be placed in B-Rank. (Also, did I not mention that if it has Shadow Ball, it's the perfect Deo-D check!)

Also, Evire for E pls. It's irrelevant in this meta but we need to tell everyone that it sucks ass.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

*sighs* Man, this thread hasn't been touched in a while!

Anyways, I'd like to nominate Espeon for B-Rank. Espeon is a pretty good Pokemon: it is hands down the best Baton Pass receiver in the game and is the must-have on any BP team, bouncing back hazards like a boss and setting up CM. It is also a decent fit on offensive teams that need a way to block hazards and cannot afford to run a spinner. Espeon also can set up Dual Screens nicely and use CM to be a decent attacker. While Xatu is generally better for a support role and fighting dem Ferros and Skarms and vice versa, Espeon has its place with its offensive presence, great speed (outspeeds Terrakion, which is nice), and overall the choice for offensive and BP teams. It isn't worse than Xatu: the two play differently and it depends on which is more necessary. Espeon is a great Pokemon who should be placed in B-Rank. (Also, did I not mention that if it has Shadow Ball, it's the perfect Deo-D check!)

Also, Evire for E pls. It's irrelevant in this meta but we need to tell everyone that it sucks ass.

Two things. First of all, Espeon's offensive capabilities does not make it a Deoxys-D check, Magic Bounce makes it a Deoxys-D check. Deoxys will never actually stay in on an Espeon, and even if, for some demented reason, he did...

252 SpAtk Espeon Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Deoxys-D: 38.16% - 45.39% (3 hits to KO)

...it wouldn't hurt too much.

Secondly, don't rank E-Vire at all. You said it yourself, it's completely irrelevant -- no one uses it, and anyone who does is probably just trolling the ladder.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Two things. First of all, Espeon's offensive capabilities does not make it a Deoxys-D check, Magic Bounce makes it a Deoxys-D check. Deoxys will never actually stay in on an Espeon, and even if, for some demented reason, he did...

252 SpAtk Espeon Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Deoxys-D: 38.16% - 45.39% (3 hits to KO)

...it wouldn't hurt too much.

Secondly, don't rank E-Vire at all. You said it yourself, it's completely irrelevant -- no one uses it, and anyone who does is probably just trolling the ladder.

Lol I never bothered to run calcs. Anyways, I take back that statement.

Kay then. All I gotta say for now.

 

[Sam]

I still think Espeon is a bit underrated for the fact that it, as you mentioned, makes Baton Pass much much more viable. While I've never used Baton Pass personally, it seems that Espeon is the cornerstone of nearly every team that does. That seems pretty good to me, albeit in a very niche scenario. It does have decent offensive presence and it's ability to set up screens on a variety of pokemon probably do make it viable enough to give it a B-ranking, imo.

 

[Electrolyte]

Not to be rude or anything, but how does being good at Baton Pass justify anything? Baton Pass is quite the gimmicky strategy itself and simple precaution is all that's needed to stop it. It's definitely not a strategy that's still capable of walling / sweeping most of the metagame, since it takes so long to set up and is so easily thwarted. A pokemon that's important for Baton Pass won't be able to do those things either.

But that's not even the point. Baton Passing is probably only 10% of what Espeon does. Its main points are A. It's high speed and SpA and B. Magic Bounce. It's quite fast and hits quite hard, but it is outclassed by Gengar / Latios in this regard, both of whom have equal speed and power but a better typing or better bulk. Espeon's Magic Bounce does give it something to stand out with, but again it receives fierce competition with Xatu, who can fulfill many of the roles of Espeon too. I think its best for it to stick to C tier for now.

 

[Sam]

Baton Pass is certainly somewhat gimmicky, but it's still something that'd out there and necessary to prepare for. Would anyone give two shits about BP if it weren't for Espeon? I can't really say, but the fact that Espeon makes an entire strategy that much more viable is definitely noticeable at the least. Like I said, I have never personally used a BP team so I could be completely off the mark here.

I don't really think it's fair to compare Espeon to Gengar and Latios. Both are clearly offensive powerhouses (though Gengar's role is a bit less clear but that's a whole 'nother discussion...), while Espeon is more of a momentum-pivot and screen setter. Sure Latios can also set-up screens as well, but that job is best left to Latias if you want to use one of them. ANYWAY getting back on point, Espeon is able to obviously shift some momentum with Magic Bounce. It's able to kind of help the 'free turn' of set-up the opponent gets with setting up screens since it limits what support moves the opponent can use. As I said whether or not it's B-tier is not really too much of my concern, I just think it deserves a bit more discussion than just posting one calc against Deo-D.

 

[Kidogo]

Just a comment on BP--I feel like the fact that espeon is the best BP receiver in the game is a testament not to the playstyle but to the power of Magic Bounce. And also, iirc IPL used BP to win the smogon tournament a couple years ago, which demonstrates its level of potency, regardless of whether or not it is gimmicky. I personally see espeon as somewhere between B and C, as it has a solid niche that is nevertheless rather small and does not really make it viable in general play. I'd probably lean towards B though since it's so incomparable.

 

[vanillazzz]

Darmanitan should be added, under the sun it becomes a powerful threat. Although he need a spinner team mate (many checks if locked into something), sun boosted (or even not) flare blitz deal tons of damage to everything if is not resisted. I used once scarfed one with max attack, and under the sun it is really hard to live flare blitz from this beast.

 

[Aerophoenix]

Darmanitan should be added, under the sun it becomes a powerful threat. Although he need a spinner team mate (many checks if locked into something), sun boosted (or even not) flare blitz deal tons of damage to everything if is not resisted. I used once scarfed one with max attack, and under the sun it is really hard to live flare blitz from this beast.

Now I love Darmanitan to the end of the earth but at most he deserves C rank. And considering that's Victini's home, it seems appropriate.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I would like to nominate 2 Pokemon who are not yet ranked.

First one is Crobat. I have been playing around a bit with the bat and find it to be an excellent wallbreaker and lead scout.

Crobat is only outsped by a few number of pokemon in the OU tier and is the fastest taunt-user along with Aerodacytl. Leading of with Crobat is something you wont regret in 90% of the cases.

Comparing Crobat to Aerodacytl is probably the first thing to do. Aerodactyl has the favor of being able to set up rocks but if the opponent anticipates your Aerodactyl lead you lost the momentum as you are forced to hard switch Pokemon. Something which isnt so when you start with Crobat due to the reason that Crobat has access to U-Turn while Aerodacytly doesnt. If Crobat is up against something that threatens to OHKO it, Crobat can usually just U-Turn out. Crobat only has to worry about Scarfed opponents, STAB Ice Shard or about losing the speed tie with Jolteon and Aerodactyl.

A second thing that makes Crobat a valuable pokemon is it's access to Brave Bird (which Aerodactyl doesnt by the way). Crobat has a decent Atk stat which can EV'ed so that Brave Bird can do big damage to a few notorious pokemon in the OU tier. I have found that a lot of people tend to see Crobat as an easy switch in for their weather starters, but when EVs are put into Attack Brave Bird does big damage to Ninetales and Politoed, where as Tyranitar will not be eager to switch in on a pokemon that has a fast U-Turn.

Thirdly, Crobat has a nice defensive typing: it's 4x resistant against Bug, Fighting and Grass and is immune to Ground. On top of that 85/80/80 defenses isnt that bad for a Pokemon that is meant to scout and break walls. Furthermore it has acces to healing with Roost. Seeing as how fast it is, it can easily Roost to negate lesser Thunder, Ice and Rock attacks aimed at it that would otherwise harm it more than the 50% Roost heals.

Lastly, Crobat is immune to Toxic, which gives it another switch opportunity. Especially when you keep in mind that Pokemon using Toxic are mostly Pokemon that Crobat loves to Taunt.

What sets Crobat back is it's lack of options. Apart from being a stallbreaker/scout it can't do much. With that speed a Choice Band set looks interesting and 90 Atk stat is definitely bandable but Crobat lacks moves that it can use. Brave Bird recoil cant be healed with Roost unless at the expense of being locked into it.

A second thing that isnt helpful to the bat is the lack of a good ability. Inner Focus only deals with Fake Out Leads seeing as how fast Crobat is and it is highly situational that this ability proves useful. Infiltrator isnt that great either seeing as light screen and reflect aren't that popular nowadays and that Crobat isnt meant to deal damage in most cases.

Crobat often gets the negative reaction that it has nothing to do vs the steel types dominating the OU metagame but Ferrothorn and Skarmory are rendered useless by Taunt and cannot do anything to the bat either as it easily heals off the damage done by them with Roost (except Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball). And as I mentioned before Crobat can easily escape gnarly situations with U-Turn.

Either way I think Crobat deserves a nomination into the C Rank.

Summarize:
- Fastest Taunt user along with Aerodactyl (not counting Electrode)
- Fastest U-Turn user after Ninjask and Accelgor (who both dont use it that often)
- Many switch in options due to 3 4x resists, 1 immunity and immunity to Toxic.
- Acces to Brave Bird and Roost


The second Pokemon I would like to nominate is Porygon2. Again my nomination is the result of personal experiences with this Pokemon.

I only tested one set but this set was great and frustrated a lot of my opponents. This set is pretty standard on Porygon2. The set I'm talking about is the Defensive Eviolite set with Trace Ability and with Recover, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt.

As I started with comparing Crobat to Aerodacytl I'll start off with a comparison here as well. A lot of people turn to Chansey/Blissey for their Special wall and therefore neglect Porygon2. But Porygon2 is a 2in1 Pokemon. It has 85/90/95 defenses! Combine that with Eviolite, easy recovery and only one weakness and you got yourself a pokemon that a lot of offensive pokemon cannot take down. For example Choice Band Scizor cannot win a 1on1 vs this duck unless he gets a crit.

Comparing it to Blissey/Chansey isnt that fair because Porygon2 is a wall on both sides: physical and special. On the special side off course Blissey and Chansey win because of their superior special defense and acces to more support moves: Wish, Stealth Rock, Aromatherapy. Porygon2 has it's own niche, it checks a lot of common threats. As long as your opponent's Pokemon doesnt have a STAB Fighting Attack at it's disposal then this duck probably wont get OHKOed meaning it can counter by t-waving, and then using recover by outspeeding the paralyzed opponent and can then hope to live the hit or get parahax.

Thunder Wave cripples most Pokemon that cannot OHKO Porygon2 and try to set up on it. Where as Boltbeam coverage and 105 SpA make sure that it isnt Tauntbait.

It's ability Trace is great, some examples:
- Heatran and Jolteon are easy switch-ins as they already couldnt do much to the duck and now their STAB is taken away.
- Opponent will think twice before letting out his Dragonite. I'm not joking when I say a multiscale Porygon2 is capable of sweeping some teams.
- Porygon2 doesnt like Toxic, but this changes when switching into a Gliscor.
- Sun teams better watch out for Chlorophyll Duck
- Porygon2 doesnt like Status, but if your opponent has a Celebi, Starmie, Roserade, Chansey or Blissey then your problem can be solved easily.
- Prankster Recover and T-Wave.
- Shadow Tag and Arena Trap users are doomed
- ...

One could consider running Analytic over Trace seeing as Porygon2 has low speed but I prefer Trace so it can fullfill it's Wall function better and because the set aims to T-Wave a lot of your opponent's Pokemon.

What sets it back is it's weakness to Status ailments. The duck doesnt like getting toxic'd, paralyzed and even a burn is not that fun. But that pretty much goes for all walls that dont have access to natural cure. Trace could give it some help when a natural cure, magic guard or poison heal pokemon is around but that's it.

Another flaw is that some pokemon can easily set up on it: namely Ferrothorn, Bronzong and Forretress. Tyranitar will not like getting paralyzed but will laugh at Porygon2's attacks due to his boosted Special Defense (altho Tyranitar cannot kill the duck quickly 1on1 either unless it runs Substitute/Focus Punch). Apart from T-Waving them (which is a start I admit that much) Porygon2 cannot do much to them and will have to switch out. Other entry hazard setters are less troublesome; Skarmory has trouble with Thunderbolt while Hippowdon doesnt like Ice Beam.

The Water/Ground Types also laugh at Porygon2 as he cant do anything while they Toxic/Burn him.


Either way Porygon2 isnt your Pokemon to win a stallwar as it succumbs easily to status moves and lacks the offensive skills to dispose of walls of their own. Porygon2 excels at killing your opponent's offensive Pokemon or rendering them useless. Pretty much all the Dragons are no match for Porygon2, Banded Scizor cannot KO it and some nasty attackers like Jolteon, the Genies, Starmie, Heatran,... cannot kill it. Porygon2 is a safe switch-in in a lot of cases and that makes it a strong Pokemon, worthy of being OU.

Despite some set backs Porygon 2 definitely deserves a mention in C Rank but I would qualify it as a B Rank for sure.

Summarize:
- Great defenses on both sides and only one weakness.
- Boltbeam coverage backed up by 105 SpA.
- Access to Recover
- Great abilities

 

[Schpoonman]

If you're going to use Crobat, you really need to emphasize his 4x resistance to Fighting. and the ability to run as a somewhat reliable check to Terrakion. For obvious reasons, switching in on Stone Edge isn't an option, but look at these calc:

252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 0HP/0Def Crobat (Neutral): 28% - 33% (88 - 103 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Crobat (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 4HP/0Def -1 Terrakion (Neutral): 115% - 136% (373 - 441 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

You're right about his Abilities not having too much use (lol Inner Focus on a Pokémon with base 130 speed), but Infiltrator could in fact be very helpful. The team I'm running benefits hugely from dual screens and Infiltrator Bandbat would be extremely troublesome. Dual Screens, if uncommon, are powerful, as is the ability to ignore them.

 

[youngjake93]

If you're gonna mention Pory2, why not mention his amazing gravity set? Modest Download Gravity+Zap Cannon+Blizzard+Recover.
That thing scores nice 2hkos on things not named Tyranitar, parahaxes, and totally tanks with the bulk and speedy recovery(after you paralyze them).
It also gives you the added benefit of switching to choice band landorus and dominating with dat EQ under gravity. Plus everything is hit by spikes.

 

[Aerophoenix]

Shouldn't Tornadus-T be removed from the listing at this point?

 

[nygerman]

I still think Espeon is a bit underrated for the fact that it, as you mentioned, makes Baton Pass much much more viable. While I've never used Baton Pass personally, it seems that Espeon is the cornerstone of nearly every team that does. That seems pretty good to me, albeit in a very niche scenario. It does have decent offensive presence and it's ability to set up screens on a variety of pokemon probably do make it viable enough to give it a B-ranking, imo.

I think pretty all rain teams check Baton pass with perish song. Taunt ruins baton pass. Baton pass is inconsistent and only threatens teams that are totally weak against them.

Crobat is not even OU. It doesn't have stealth rocks and only has weak attacks. It's worse than metagross.