Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Deglas]

Abomasnow for A Rank. Someone mentioned earlier that Ninetales was the worst weather starter, so shouldn't Abomasonow be in the same tier? I freely admit that Drought>Snow Warning, but Abomasnow is a really underrated Pokemon that gives you a solid weapon against all weathers (even Sun). The yeti may have an abominable seven weaknesses, but the resit to Water and Grass STAB give it the upper hand vs. rain teams. The Ground resist is handy in general, letting it take Earthquakes when switching in, and it threatens most users of the move with its STABs. It does well vs. Sand also-- Tyranitar fears Wood Hammer, and Hippowdon doesn't want to switch into a Blizzard (despite the 70% accuracy because of Sandstream). Abomasnow also has STAB Ice Shard, giving you a check to dragons, genies, and Chlorophyll 'mons. And Hail is a nifty weather to have around, as few Pokemon in OU are immune to the damage. Abomasnow also can run a variety of sets: Scarf, Band, Leech Seed, and Expert Belt are all viable.



And a completely unrelated Pokemon, Cradily for D Rank. It has a small niche as a special wall and anti-Rain Pokemon for Sand teams, because of its nice 86/97/107 Defenses (and its SpD is further boosted because of its Rock typing) and Storm Drain. Its Grass/Rock typing is unfortunately defensively, with weaknesses to Ice, Fighting, Steel and Bug, and with resistances only to Electric and Normal, but in Sandstorm its special bulk lets it take even non-STAB super-effective attacks with ease and Recover off the damage. Its Grass typing gives it a STAB Giga Drain, letting it threaten rain teams, abuse Strom Drain boosts, and heal simultaneously, and it can use its secondary Rock STAB for coverage vs. Flying-, Bug-, Ice- and Fire- types (and if it gets the Ancientpower boosts it becomes almost unstoppable). It has a small niche, but it is very good at filling it.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Abomasnow may match up well against some weather teams, but it has too many debilitating flaws to be considered for A-rank. The Stealth Rock weakness is one thing, but it also suffers from weaknesses to many common attacks (especially Fighting) and has average stats across the board. It hardly fits the description of A-rank, though it is still a decent 'mon

 

[Shikyo]

I totally meant to say Scizor when I said Scyther, hrmh ...

Keldeo doesn't need rain at all, he sweeps anywhere. Being awesome in the most popular weather is just a bonus. His neutral coverage is about as good as Terrakions but he doesn't get revenged by everything


Also physically defensive Lati@s defeat CB Scizor using Pursuit if they dragon pulse his switch-in assuming stealth rock.

 

[team grassfire]

I also believe Keldeo really should be moved down to A-Rank. While it is the best abuser of the 50% boost rain provides to water type moves, the combination of its moves is walled by a few pokemon. It can muscle past some of them with a weak hidden power, but not all, and not all at once. Keldeo also, unlike the other two offensive S-ranked mons, cannot effectively boost its speed to sweep. Landorus and terrakion both constantly threaten to reach untouchable levels of speed with rock polish, which unfortunately lacks a water type counter part. Keldeo can use a choice scarf, but then it has no hope of beating any of its counters. It can also try sub salac, but that leaves it either unable to boost its special attack, or completely walled by a few pokemon like jellicent, latias, and bulky dragonite. Keldeo has all the characteristics of an A-ranked ou offensive mon (extreme power, decent bulk, and a few coverage gaps, see garchomp), but none of the S-ranked capabilities (perfect coverage, extreme power, ability to boost crucial stats, and the ability to beat nearly every one of their counters given the right conditions).

While I am on the topic of what makes an S-Ranked mon I would like to nominate dragonite. It has so many defensive and offensive perks it is ridiculous not to put it in S-Rank. It can attack Physically with perfect coverage, boost its speed and attack, attack specially with perfect coverage, use strong priority, wall a significant portion of the metagame, is almost invulnerable if it can achieve full health through rapid spin or some other form of anti stealth rock support or roost at the appropriate opportunities, and most importantly, dragonite can beat every one of its counters without detracting from its overall purpose on its team. In my opinion he is the most deserving of the S-ranked title out of all of ou. Seriously, name me a method for dealing with dragonite, and I can probably name a reasonable way to beat that method. This isn't even completely true of landorus, who has no way to beat cresselia or bulky scarf rotom-W. Dragonite for S-Rank.

 

[Bent1ey]

Abomasnow may match up well against some weather teams, but it has too many debilitating flaws to be considered for A-rank. The Stealth Rock weakness is one thing, but it also suffers from weaknesses to many common attacks (especially Fighting) and has average stats across the board. It hardly fits the description of A-rank, though it is still a decent 'mon

You could say the same thing about Ninetales, and I'd argue that the fox is actually quite the worse of the two. The only real argument that keeps Abo below rank A is that Hail is not nearly as useful as sun by a mile.

 

[Schpoonman]

You could say the same thing about Ninetales, and I'd argue that the fox is actually quite the worse of the two. The only real argument that keeps Abo below rank A is that Hail is not nearly as useful as sun by a mile.

That's the crux of the matter. The weather Ninetales provides puts him at A. Remember, both Politoed and Ninetales were NU last generation, and beyond Drizzle and Drought, they did not receive anything close to put them where they are. Their respective auto-weathers are that good.

 

[Magcargo]

I must ask. Why isn't ferrothorn S-Rank? It can literally demolish most teams with leech seed, spikes and SR. Access to two powerful moves give it much offensive presence and allows it to use a CB set. Only tentacruel and forretress can spin against him because the best rapid spinner loses to him.

Also, forretress should also be A-Rank. While it faces major competition with ferrothorn, access to T-Spikes, Rapid spin and V-switch give it better utility. It can get up at least one layer of spikes thanks to sturdy and maybe two because I'm not sure if the custab berry is released.

 

[BettaOffDead]

I must ask. Why isn't ferrothorn S-Rank? It can literally demolish most teams with leech seed, spikes and SR. Access to two powerful moves give it much offensive presence and allows it to use a CB set. Only tentacruel and forretress can spin against him because the best rapid spinner loses to him.

Also, forretress should also be A-Rank. While it faces major competition with ferrothorn, access to T-Spikes, Rapid spin and V-switch give it better utility. It can get up at least one layer of spikes thanks to sturdy and maybe two because I'm not sure if the custab berry is released.

Fighting and Fire types make ferrothorn cry. Especially with SR/Spikes support. And no, Ferrothorn does not have much offensive presence unless the pokemon is weak to grass or steel. 94 base attack is crap in OU.

With stealthrock and spikes being so common, Forretress's sturdy is broken and thus he cannot always get at least one layer of hazards.

 

[Magcargo]

Fighting and Fire types make ferrothorn cry. Especially with SR/Spikes support. And no, Ferrothorn does not have much offensive presence unless the pokemon is weak to grass or steel. 94 base attack is crap in OU.

With stealthrock and spikes being so common, Forretress's sturdy is broken and thus he cannot always get at least one layer of hazards.

Powerful stab's make it's attack pretty viable in ou. Also, ferrothorn is alway used in the rain so fire attack will do less damage. Lead Forretress is a pretty viable strategy, only being ruined by the rare deoxys-D and terrakion leads.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Powerful stab's make it's attack pretty viable in ou. Also, ferrothorn is alway used in the rain so fire attack will do less damage. Lead Forretress is a pretty viable strategy, only being ruined by the rare deoxys-D and terrakion leads.

Just here to say that although Terrakion can prevent Forretress from getting hazards up with Taunt, it is maimed by Gyro Ball.

And even with Fire-type atacks nerfed by rain, they still do a lot of damage, and most teams carry Fire- or Fighting-type attacks, to which Ferrothorn can't stand. Also, nowadays Ferrothorn is dying to most neutral attacks, e.g. Tornadus' Hurricane, Landorus' Earthquake/Earth Power, Scizor's U-Turn does a lot of damage as well...

 

[nygerman]

Keldeo is countered by Jelliicent, Toxicroak, and Tentacruel, hardly worth S Rank.

 

[Shurtugal]

EB beats them with appropriate Hp coverage

 

[Magcargo]

Keldeo is countered by Jelliicent, Toxicroak, and Tentacruel, hardly worth S Rank.

This post makes me think why jellicent isn't A Rank. STAB Scald in the rain will do a lot to the likes of terrakion and has a nifty 30% burn chance. It can completely wall keldeo and some politoed. Jellicent can also pair up with ferrothorn to forn an amazing defensive core.

 

[Schpoonman]

Landorus is countered by Skarmory and Bronzong. Terrakion is countered by Gliscor and Slowbro. Hydreigon isn't countered by anything but physically defensive Chansey, and even then it might be a trolling Choice Band Hydreigon, but Hydreigon is only B-rank. What's your point? Unless you're countered by half the metagame, having a few counters doesn't mean a Pokémon isn't S-rank.

Keldeo is still probably the most dangerous sweeper in the OU metagame. LO Keldeo 2HKOs standard Ferrothorn under rain with some Spikes. Not with Secret Sword, but with Hydro Pump. It's mind-bendingly strong.

 

[False Sense]

Landorus is countered by Skarmory and Bronzong. Terrakion is countered by Gliscor and Slowbro. Hydreigon isn't countered by anything but physically defensive Chansey, and even then it might be a trolling Choice Band Hydreigon, but Hydreigon is only B-rank. What's your point? Unless you're countered by half the metagame, having a few counters doesn't mean a Pokémon isn't S-rank.

Keldeo is still probably the most dangerous sweeper in the OU metagame. LO Keldeo 2HKOs standard Ferrothorn under rain with some Spikes. Not with Secret Sword, but with Hydro Pump. It's mind-bendingly strong.

My point was that there are just SO MANY things that Keldeo can't break past, even with HP coverage. You say that unless half the metagame counters it, it can still be worthy of S-Rank. Well, it may not be half, but it's a pretty high number. I can understand that the sheer power of Hydro Pump can put it up in S-Rank, but I just wanted to get my point across that unlike some of the other S-Rank pokemon, it's pretty easy to stop without even taking it into consideration while team building.

 

[Schpoonman]

it's pretty easy to stop without even taking it into consideration while team building.

That's not at all accurate. I've had by-all-accounts solid teams crumble under rain-boosted Surfs from Keldeo. Not from any old Water-type boosted by the rain, but from Keldeo specifically. And your claim of SO MANY THINGS is not true. You have (and all of these are SpDef variants) Celebi, Jellicent, Tentacruel, and Amoongus. Sure, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, and Toxicroak are immune to Hydro Pump and Surf, but HP coverage and Secret Sword do buckets of damage on their own.

 

[Jukain]

Hi why is Latias nowhere here? It's a damn perfect counter to Keldeo. Also, Shurtugal: the only one EB Keldeo can get past is Celebi and maybe Toxicroak. It's too fucking weak.

Latias / Celebi / Jellicent / Tentacruel / Amoonguss

Last time I checked, 5 counters was more than enough. Oh yeah, and these are some of the best Pokemon in the metagame.

Not that I don't support Keldeo staying in S tier, as it's really just amazing with its power, Speed, and what have you. However, you need to actually look at everything that counters it.

 

[Wizarus]

Toxicroak doesn't counter Keldeo at all, it will lose if it switches into a neutral HP.

 

[Sacaen]

Toxicroak doesn't counter Keldeo at all, it will lose if it switches into a neutral HP.

Not against choice scarf, which is the most common set. Toxicroak can easily come in on a neutral HP then heal off the damage with dry skin and drain punch.
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 108-128 (35.06 - 41.55%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 165-196 (50.92 - 60.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Even against the choice specs set, toxicroak can still avoid the 2HKO with his bulk up (hp investment) set at full health factoring in Dry skin healing.

 

[TUO]

Are you trying to say that the above pokemon in S rank don't have counters. Landorus-T, Gliscor and Latias to an extent (Even Toxicroak situationally) can deal with Terrakion and yet it is S Rank.

 

[False Sense]

@The Unlucky one; No, I fully acknowledge that the other S-Rank pokemon have counters. I was just saying that the number of pokemon that can safely counter them are far fewer in number than those that can counter Keldeo. Landorus-T and Gliscor are pretty much the only OU walls that can safely switch into and wall Terrakion, while things like Lati@s risk an X-Scizzor. The most reliable Terrakion counters tend to be in the lower tiers, mostly due to uncommon niche typing. The fact that they have those rare types makes them viable for just countering Terrakion. I think that shows just how powerful Terrakion is, and how hard it is to wall. Keldeo, on the other hand, has it's STABs resisted by a number of common OU pokemon. There's no need to go delving into lower tiers just to hard counter it.

Well, I can tell by most of the posts that I'm not getting anyone to agree with me, so I suppose I'll drop this argument, unless anyone wants to back me up. I can understand why Keldeo IS S-Rank, but I'm just not sure if it's the right place for it.

 

[team grassfire]

I will back up False Sense on the keldeo for A-rank thing. Seriously, keldeo may be an extremely powerful pokemon, especially under the rain, but consider how many counters it has. Keldeo never can beat latias, only beats jellicent with offensive life orb calm mind with hp electric (and loses most of its health in the process), can only beat tentacruel with sub calm mind, can only beat toxicroak with EXTREMELY niche hiden powers, cannot beat amoongus without excelent prediction with sub calm mind, cannot beat most celebi with any set (thunder wave + psychic really offers no hope), and cannot beat latios without hitting it on the switch in with a scarf hidden power electric or ghost (terrible moves to be locked into). All of the pokemon are very ou viable (well, amoongus is sketchy in my opinion) and all of them remove any possiblity of a keldeo sweep even if they fail to counter keldeo, because keldeo cannot beat any of these (except latios, see above) and boost its speed, which will almost certainly be necessary to sweep any half decent ou team. Keldeo is the best abuser of rain boosted water attacks in ou, but it has too many counters and way too many checks to really be S-ranked. All other S-ranked offensive pokemon can beat almost every last one of their counters and still have a serious shot at sweeping the entire opposing team. Keldeo just can't compete due to it's much poorer coverage. I would really like to know how keldeo can beat its counters and sweep before I would consider it an S-ranked pokemon.

 

[False Sense]

Well, apparently I have some support...

So, before I completely stop arguing for Keldeo's movement to A-Rank, I'd like to ask an honest question. Let's look at the definition of S-Rank:


Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.


I've bolded the parts that I wanted to discuss. I've mentioned multiple times that Keldeo has a fair share of checks and counters in OU alone. With all those considered, is Keldeo still considered capable of "sweeping significant portions of the metagame?" Keldeo's only real flaw is that it has terrible coverage, and is walled by quite a few things; is that critical flaw mitigated by it's sheer power, along with it's other qualities? I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that.

 

[Schpoonman]

Well, apparently I have some support...

So, before I completely stop arguing for Keldeo's movement to A-Rank, I'd like to ask an honest question. Let's look at the definition of S-Rank:


Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.


I've bolded the parts that I wanted to discuss. I've mentioned multiple times that Keldeo has a fair share of checks and counters in OU alone. With all those considered, is Keldeo still considered capable of "sweeping significant portions of the metagame?" Keldeo's only real flaw is that it has terrible coverage, and is walled by quite a few things; is that critical flaw mitigated by it's sheer power, along with it's other qualities? I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that.

Here we go! This is what I've been talking about: Keldeo is similar to Kyurem-B in that simply having a "check" is not good enough. Just as you can't sponge Outrages without a physically defensive Steel-type, Keldeo cannot and will not be walled without serious, resisted bulk, or immunity. Keldeo's rain-boosted Hydro Pumps are the most powerful attack in OU, and unlike Darmanitan or Victini (whose STABs are more powerful in neutral weather [In fact, I believe that Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the second or third most powerful attack in the history of Pokémon]) Keldeo has the typing and stat spread to be one of the premier threats of OU.

I kinda felt like I got off track on the part about checks and counters, so lemme reiterate: Keldeo is not like Terrakion where you can say "Well, I don't have room for Gliscor, but I do already have Choice Band Scizor, so he can check Terrakion." If you don't allot room specifically, very specifically, to account for Keldeo, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[DaBiggKaboom420]

I think the rankings need to be updated