The prospect of a "BL Metagame"

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by Jumpman16, Sep 30, 2007.

  1. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    I was actually under the impression that BL pokemon got more play on a level playing ground for them than the occasional lone sighting in "one BL allowed" UU tournaments. So when Dragontamer informed me that his suggestion, in the "BL/UU Tier Discussion thread" that Walrein seems ready for OU play, I naturally assumed, given his track record of being stubborn and rebelliously outspoken on such pokemon matters, that he was just trying to stir things up again. But when he PMed me, it became apparent that the logic behind his posts stemmed from the no-man's-land nature that is the BL "tier".

    Besides NU, about which nobody really cares, every other tier has its corresponding metagame, with an open-level of sorts that only restricts pokemon in the tier or tiers above. Ubers is a free-for-all, since there is no higher tier than ubers. OU is "standard" and it allows everything but ubers. But then we leapfrog straight to UU, which only allows UU and NU pokemon, with the occasional aforementioned lone BL. Lastly there is NU, for which there is no metagame really, but again, who cares.

    So where does that leave the pokemon in the BL tier? In a forgotten limbo (that's contradictorily a cruel high jump for the sake of this imagery, bear with me) where the bar is set too high for them to feature without a push from some OU support. Why? Is it really the case that, if there were a BL metagame, which would obviously include only BL, UU and NU pokemon, that it would be so broken and unbalanced that it wouldn't be an endeavor worth taking?

    When I brought this up in #insidescoop, Lords took this thinking to the next, tangible level, suggesting Specs Roserade as a pokemon that would likely unbalanced a hypothetical BL metagame. This obviously begs the scrutiny of the very tier we're trying to iron out now, so I'll paste it here for our benefit.

    BL
    Abomasnow
    Alakazam
    Ambipom
    Arcanine
    Articuno
    Blaziken
    Charizard
    Claydol
    Cloyster
    Drapion
    Empoleon
    Entei
    Espeon
    Exeggutor
    Floatzel
    Flygon
    Gallade
    Gardevoir
    Hariyama
    Honchkrow
    Houndoom
    Jolteon
    Jynx
    Kingdra
    Leafeon
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magmortar
    Marowak
    Medicham
    Mesprit
    Milotic
    Miltank
    Mismagius
    Moltres
    Ninjask
    Porygon2
    Raikou
    Ramparados
    Regice
    Regigigas
    Regirock
    Registeel
    Roserade
    Sceptile
    Scizor
    Slaking
    Shaymin
    Shedinja
    Smeargle
    Snorlax
    Spiritomb
    Staraptor
    Steelix
    Tauros
    Torterra
    Umbreon
    Uxie
    Venusaur
    Zangoose


    I would think that an Arcanine/Probopass (the latter is UU and we don't have a UU list yet but whatever) contingent could handle Specs Roserade much the same way a Salamence/Steelix one handled CB Heracross, a similarly "uncounterable" threat in Advance. Raikou is another trouble pokemon, potentially, but Snorlax would be able to handle it as it did in Advance. Medicham could be handled by Uxie...etc.

    This is where you guys come in. First, do you think there is absolutely no need for a BL metagame, given the fact that we'll have its tier largely finalized (as finalized as a tier can be) rather soon? If so, do you think it will be more balanced or less balanced than OU is currently? If not, why do you feel that a BL metagame is unnecessary? I would also appreciate some further theorycraft along the lines of what's featured in the paragraph above this, as, while I realize that the stability and usefulness of such a metagame would need to be tested extensively in battle, you've got to start somewhere, right?
  2. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
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    I always chuckle when necessity is brought up regarding things about pokemon. I know you really didn't mean "need" in the strict sense, Jump, when you inquired about the "need for a BL metagame", but some people do. The only consideration of importance would be whether or not a BL metagame would be fun; I think it would be.

    Yes, you've got to start somewhere, but I don't think it is possible to theory-craft your way to a conclusion about balance. If we want to test the viability of something like this, the first step that would yield the most information would be a tournament. I'm all for this seeing as how DP really broadened the field of pokemon we classify as BL.
  3. Mekkah

    Mekkah OH yum-my sau-ces
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    There is a con for this: people will try to make the BL metagame balanced and thereby make things that are too strong for it OU, which makes tiers even more complicated than they are now. We'll also have to reteach what the meaning of tiers are.

    Or we could just leave the balance of BL as it is and just not try to balance it because I don't see the need.
  4. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    Well, having so many Pokemon kind of makes BL a viable metagame on its own now.

    However, I think that you cannot just start with the current BL list. BL's current definition is "things that are too powerful for UU play, but are not used much in OU". This means that, currently, there are two types of BL Pokemon:

    1) Pokemon that are as good as a few OUs, but are not currently used.
    2) Pokemon that are too good for UU, but are not good enough for OU either.

    If a BL metagame is created, it should include only Pokemon from category 2, and those from category 1 should be put in OU.

    However, doing this would essentially make the BL tier the new UU. You are just calling UU as "BL" if you are making BL a separate metagame.
  5. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
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    blah, I think you guys are overcomplicating it.
  6. Misty

    Misty oh
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    This is where you guys come in. First, do you think there is absolutely no need for a BL metagame, given the fact that we'll have its tier largely finalized (as finalized as a tier can be) rather soon?

    This is not even remotely given ;[ The BL tier has a strong dependency on the UU tier - this "faux BL" tier, as you put it, is has little to no effect on the "actual BL" tier, which should arise out of careful testing and discussion.
  7. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    And I feel the same way about OU, which we will never have a good handle on until there is a comprehensive pokemon usage logging program that has been running for months. However, I think something like this deserves to at least be brought up now, so that whenever we have a legitimate handle on the BL tier, the idea of launching a new metagame is one that will be more accepted than if it's suddenly brought up after everything seems so settled finally.
  8. Misty

    Misty oh
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    There is a single correct way to do this.

    - Start with no BL tier, and play UU games with any non-OU/uber Pokemon.
    - After a while (depending on how much things get broken, two weeks may be sufficient), revise your assumptions and set certain Pokemon as "BL".
    - Repeat this process until a balanced metagame develops.
    - Done.
  9. Synre

    Synre
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    Most of what I wanted to say has been said already but I don't know how we can do this and expect to be balanced without redefining how we tier things. We can keep tiering the way we are now and just say that the BL list is it's own metagame now but it's highly unlikely it will be balanced if we do so so it isn't a tier so much as a banned in UU list right now.

    Realistically if we want it to be a metagame there'll probably be stuff we need to move up to OU to balance things(or, as usage drops, move down from OU to BL) which I think would create a metagame with a little too much volatility as far as pokemon available to be used. With the two metagame system we had before it was easier to keep balance since there is OU and the banned from OU list(Uber), and then UU and the banned from UU list(BL), essentially. Uber became a metagame on it's own but there was almost zero volatility in the pokemon used because Uber->OU was based exclusively on power, whereas OU->BL is currently based on usage and BL->UU is based on power.

    I am not sure how much sense I am making but I just don't think we could create a balanced metagame without changing the tiering system.

    EDIT: I hadn't read Misty's post when I wrote this but it doesn't really change what I am saying I guess.
  10. makiri

    makiri My vast and supreme will shall be done!
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    I'll just repeat what I always say:

    You cannot develop a tier without testing, testing, and more testing. Things like this take time but people are too impatient. Sure something will look amazing on paper, but until you can actually see it in action, it has no real proof it does anything.

    I personally have seen one person use a BL team and he only has it because of a tournament. BL was never played in any form to be honest. People use BLs on OU teams, people use BLs on UU teams, but I never see just BLs. Maybe this will change in D/P (which I expect because of the vast number of Pokemon), but things need to be tested over and over, thats the only way to get something solid and concrete.

    I never personally played BL because it just seems so uninteresting and similar to OU. UU acts totally different than OU, and NU is a whole new world, BL is just an extension of the OU tier it seems but it is missing things like special walls, etc. I mean without Blissey, Moltres will run over everything.

    And this also begs the question of what to do with NFE Pokemon. Chansey, Haunter, and Kadabra we placed in BL because of their power over UU Pokemon. Would we continue doing the same thing?

    I had one more point to bring up but I forgot, I'll try to remember it.

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