The PU Viability Ranking Thread (Read post #112)

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Detective Dell, May 4, 2013.

  1. Fabbles

    Fabbles LN_Slayer
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    Haven't played much BW (any meta) at all, and I've only played a few matches on the ladder (very fun meta), but I guess I'll just share a few thoughts.

    I love Sandshrew. Great defensive bulk with Evolite, stabbed EQ, can set up SR and spin, and last move is for utility (I use Knock Off). I'd probably say it is in the C-D range of Pokemon but it definitely has a niche for the tier I would say.

    Magcargo and Noctowl have also been pleasant surprises for me.
  2. Edricky

    Edricky

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    (btw before I start on my post I must say this is my first post on Smogon, though as my siggy states I've been viewing it for quite a while. I've been playing PU for a little while and finally think I'm okay at it now, however, I'm still likely to not be as excellent as I could be. Improvement I hope is drawn towards me and I likewise hope to give insight into PU with my posts in this thread. Without further pause, "Hi, I'm new." may suffice for now.)

    I have used Sandshrew as well and feel it does indeed deserve C-to-D-rank; although further usage would be preferred before a distinct verdict should be reached.


    On a slightly different subject, I feel that Dodrio is actually excellent - despite its poor movepool, which consists of STAB and Pursuit for what I am aware, it is capable of blasting through much of the tier without a second thought. Brave Bird is an excellent STAB move, although the recoil does hinder it relatively heavily - but I and my various opponents have swept unhindered throughout many matches; I would suggest further investigation on this matter posthaste, though my current suspicion gives it about to A-Rank moreso than B-Rank. However, I may be a little overestimating it's capabilities; it does indeed faint fairly easily, and it may be fine where it is at, though it does cause headaches for the opponent when placed in the slightest of negative positions.


    On an entirely different foot, what is the current norm for Arbok? I run Shed Skin+Coil/Gunk Shot/Aqua Tail/Rest @ Leftovers, but I can see why people would stray from this, Which I believe not the norm, due to its variability. I'm just curious as to what you may run.

    Edit: Also, is Probopass allowed? I cannot seem to pinpoint whether or not this is the case. I would appreciate, more specifically, an up-to-date list of the available Pokémon - if someone doesn't mind, that is.
  3. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I don't think Dodrio deserves A-Rank, just because it's coverage is awful. Yes, it is powerful and fast, but it's coverage is awful. It lacks any way to hurt Steel-types and Rock-types, who are rather common in PU and are difficult to ignore. Of course, you could run Hidden Power [Fighting] with enough SAtk investment to 2HKO Lairon (Lol I actually tested that), but it's kind of gimmicky.
  4. Leafshield

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    Hey there, welcome to Smogon! All of the points you make up are very interesting and could use some more discussion.

    Dodrio is definitely a fantastic sweeper in PU: its strong STAB Brave Bird coupled with reliable recovery in Roost makes it a reliable sweeper in many situations. Mind you, Dodrio is also extremely frail, making it pretty much a glass cannon. It doesn't have many other options, however, making it very predictable and easily countered by the Rock-Types that are found on pretty much every team. But, if you can get its checks out of the way, it's truly a dangerous threat. However, I think Fearow outclasses it due to its access to U-Turn and Drill Run, being able to beat its counters with ease or switch out into a sweeper. Though, Dodrio does in fact have its niche, with noticeably more power and access to Roost. I say it should go down to B-Rank.

    On Arbok, the snake runs a variety of sets that I've seen. The most popular two, from my experience; the Bulky Coil set with Intimidate and the ShedRest Coil set. Both of the sets are very effective, the former using its average bulk, cool defensive typing, and Intimidate to set up all over walls and the latter creating a pseudo ResTalk to boost and sweep as needed. The most common one is probably the Bulky Coil set, but that doesn't make it any better than ShedRest, which I prefer. Arbok's move-pool is surprisingly wide, allowing you to mix and match coverage moves to your liking. I personally like to run Aqua Tail and Sucker Punch on the Intimidate set, allowing you to stop Choiced Psychic-Types who want to stop your sweep and to still hit the Steel-Types that are immune to your STAB pretty hard. The ShedRest set prefers having Aqua Tail in tandem with Gunk Shot, though.

    Also, it's probably better to run Black Sludge on Arbok instead of Leftovers, in case Rotom-F wants to screw you over with Trick.

    I don't think Probo is allowed, sorry about that. Soon, the usage stats will be out and the PU meta, and you'll know for certain who's in the tier and not allowed.
  5. Edricky

    Edricky

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    Thank you for the welcomes and responses! I understand both the points, and I was still on a tentative decision, as you may have gathered. But if I may say, it is still capable of hammering through much of the tier - I am sure Lairon, Klang and Mawile would likely stop it - but even they are capable of being beaten with little support; I don't know any calcs (and am sure I would mess them up somehow if I where to try looking for one), but if I recall correctly if they are within a 30-45% range a Life Orb Positive Nature Brave Bird would still finish them off - but this is mostly potentially false memories, therefore little to call upon. I may also be using an out-of-norm choice (namely Adamant Life Orb, which I am not sure if this is frowned upon based on speed tiering) that may skew my results solely. Perhaps this is something to consider or debunk?

    Edit(in response to your edits):

    Thank you for the specifics about Arbok and Probopass; after some minor investigation on Probopass's part, I believe it is close to potentially falling - and it would make an interesting addition to the PU tier, I feel - and would certainly be something I would be anxious towards acquiring in the future.
  6. JoshuaMunoz

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    I agree though that A-Rank may fit Dodrio. There aren't many Rock and Steel types in the tier, they are just on every team, and many opponents from my experience tend not to save their Rocks or Steels late-game. Its coverage may be lacking, but all it needs is its STAB moves and a Choice Band to plow through teams that have no resists, as even some dedicated physical walls fall down to its fury! Think of it as Swellow in NU; fast, powerful, and a great late-game sweeper that doesn't rely on after-turn damage. If you're desperate on getting a momentum-shifting move, then Baton Pass Dodrio could work with a Band, as it doesn't really need Pursuit. Its fraility does hinder it, especially with Brave Bird recoil, but that means it usually has knocked out / heavily damaged a Pokemon from the opposing team that doesn't resist Dodrio's moves. All-in-all, A-Rank could work on Dodrio, albeit a lower status than most in the rank.
  7. WhiteDMist

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    Actually, in my experiences, Dodrio is superior to Fearow in most situations. The higher Atk stat AND Brave Bird are very hard to ignore. They are both frail, but Fearow does have Drill Run... which is actually not as useful as you'd expect. Most Rock and Steel-types tend to set up Rocks early game and are worn down to the point of being 2HKOed even by Return. The Electric-types of the tier are mostly frail and hate taking Quick Attack from either bird in any case, and Rotom-F dislikes taking hits from Dodrio far more than from Fearow. U-turn is admittedly an advantage that Fearow has, but Fearow would have to give up either Drill Run or Quick Attack, removing useful utilities (and JM is right that it also has Baton Pass if you really want). In most cases, I have found the greater power in Brave Bird and Return/Thrash to be far superior to the interesting utilities offered by Fearow. So I wouldn't mind if Dodrio were placed in A-rank and would gladly argue for it.
  8. Leafshield

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    I guess it all comes down to what you prefer. I personally see more in the utility Fearow brings in U-turn, and the way to hit immediately hard against the opponent's bird counter with a Choice Banded Drill Run. Brave Bird, while nice for power on Dodrio, wears it down much quicker than Fearow's Drill Peck does, making Fearow last overall longer than the other. I can see the appeal in Dodrio, however, as its raw power is hard to pass up.

    Upon further reading as well as a compelling argument from WhiteDMist, I agree that both have their specific niches and work very well in A-Rank
  9. Punchshroom

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    Yeah, I believe Fearow and Dodrio shouldn't even be in the same Rank IMO. When I see a Fearow, I don't expect too much out of it, as even Drill Run fails to do incredible damage to Relicanth, Gigalith or even Lairon, while Drill Peck is pretty laughable for its sole Flying STAB. When I see a Dodrio, I know I have to keep my bulkier dudes alive if I don't want to get wrecked by it. Granted Rocks and Steels are complete full stops to Dodrio, but if they are out of the way Dodrio is more than capable of blowing holes into teams much more efficiently than Fearow, busting through most physically bulky pokemon such as Leafeon, Vileplume and Throh with incredible ease, feats Fearow may fall short at. Also while Fearow has u-turn, Dodrio can try Flail or Endeavor for a last strong hit if need be. Fearow is "safer", but Dodrio hits so much stuff way harder it's not even funny. An example would be Eviolite Fraxure: CB Dodrio almost guarantees the OHKO with Brave Bird/Double-Edge after SR, with a chance at OHKOing regardless; Fearow needs SR just to have a shot at OHKOing (max damage being 88%). A-Rank from me as well.

    Also Carnivine for E-Rank cos he can't do shit.
  10. Malkyrian

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    Nominating Lickitung for C Rank.

    I've been using Lickitung as my answer to special attackers on my most recent team, and have been seriously impressed by the results. Choice Scarf Rotom-F Blizzard doesn't even 3HKO! At first glance, it looks like a worse Audino due to the lack of Regenerator and Leftovers despite the greater bulk, but Dragon Tail helps set it apart since Audino can't phaze. It also gives defensive teams that need a Cloud Nine user an alternative to Golduck. Finally, 30 base Speed is actually perfect for it, since it can drop its IVs to be slower than Beheeyem to deny it an Analytic boost or outspeed it in Trick Room, which makes Lickitung a much better answer to Beheeyem than Audino in most cases.

    I think it fits the definition of C Rank perfectly; it has enough niches to merit its use, even though it faces a lot of competition with higher-ranked Pokemon.
  11. Nozzle

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    I don't know if this was clear or not but i agreed that JCM's Basculin write up gets a spot in the OP.

    Will edit my opinion on Lickitung later since it has also impressed me.
  12. Harbinger of Peace

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    I agree with Leafshield, both Dodrio and Fearow have niches over each other, and can serve slighty different roles. Also, I agree with Malkyrian. Lickitung is an excellent special wall having a nice niche over audino in phazing, knock-off, and the speed tier mentioned. I believe Lickitung has enough of a niche to be included in the listings, as C Rank or D Rank.
  13. Edricky

    Edricky

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    Nominating Beartic for B-Rank


    Beartic has an excellent niche in being an Ice-Type; it allows it a lesser-seen STAB and it has the pleasure of a so-so movepool that gives it everything it needs; Icicle Crash is a great spammable attack, while Stone Edge and Superpower provide nice coverage, Aqua Jet as Priority (it is too bad it doesn't get Ice Shard...), and gets Swords Dance for situational pressure. On top of that, it has Swift Swim to either easily counter Rain teams or be an excellent member of one. However, being an Ice-Type with only moderate bulk, it is easy pickings for the common Fighting- and Fire-Type moves in the tier, as well as it's speed being less than stellar when outside of rain - and it's bulk being incapable of being fallen back on, you will find switching out a very common occurrence, which is not good when you are weak to all three entry hazards. Still, Beartic can make an excellent addition to a variety of teams if properly supported.​

    That's my entire argument on that. To me, it seems it fits the B-Rank criterion perfectly. I've used it extensively, so I feel I understand the topic. Hopefully.
  14. Leafshield

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    I like to think of Beartic as a poor man's Ursaring unless you're using Rain. Outside of weather, Ursaring is almost always better due to a lack of a weakness to Stealth Rock, stronger Attack, and stronger available STAB. However, Beartic has his advantages over the grizzly: access to priority, better bulk (though somewhat hindered by its bad defensive typing), and the ability to boost its Speed and power at once, unlike Ursaring who has to choose with its ability. Beartic fits much better on Rain teams due to its Ice-Type STAB taking down the very bothersome Grass-Types, the bane of Rain teams, and Swift Swim giving it a natural Speed boost, making it easy to utilize Choice Band on teams with manual Rain and hit hard very easily. Its coverage is good, too: Superpower and Stone Edge, along with utility moves like Encore and useful priority in Aqua Jet, make it very easy for Beartic to set up with Swords Dance or Bulk Up (prefer Bulk Up, but SD has its uses). Beartic is also amazing at forcing switches, making its SubPunch set one of the most dangerous sets in PU. On the downside, a Stealth Rock weakness, few coverage options (hits plenty for neutral damage, but fails to hit many defensive threats for SE damage) and somewhat reliance on rain make it inferior to Ursaring on manual rain. Overall, I agree with Beartic for B-Rank
  15. col49

    col49 you know I used to try
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    Honestly, I feel as though B-Rank is just a bit too generous for Beartic :/ Yeah, it is moderately bulky and can do a lot of damage when given free turns, I won't deny that, but in practice this doesn't show very well. Being hazard-weak and packing no useful resistances (I mean, it can eat Frostom's Blizzards / HP Ices...) means that Beartic experiences quite a bit of difficulty switching in, and unlike Frostom (who I'm using for comparison strictly on the basis of being significant competition as an offensive Ice-type) its low initial Speed really prevents it from scaring out much to get those free turns it needs to set anything up. Saying it has priority (Aqua Jet) is all well and good, but keep in mind that a non-STAB, 40 BP attack is rather unimpressive, and considering some of the most common Pokemon it would like to be using it on either resist it or have the natural bulk to shrug it off (ex: OTR Beheeyem, Fraxure, Golduck, Coil Arbok, SD Jumpluff, Simipour / Simisage, etc.) the move is rather limited in its usefulness (though it does have merit in checking Combusken as long as you prevent it from netting a free sub, which is chill). I wouldn't exactly go and say Beartic "counters" other manual Rain teams either since the few other Swift Swim sweepers outpace it regardless, so all it's checking is Swanna more oft than not. Noted I haven't used Beartic in a dedicated rain team before (my experience comes from a set of Rain Dance / Icicle Crash / Superpower / [Aqua Jet / SD]), though I'd consider besting Grass-types much less valuable considering some of the best Rain-based sweepers (imo) are Mantine and Swanna, both of whom can circumvent Grass-types with few problems. Personally, I lean more towards C-Rank, though anybody can feel free to correct me on the matter.

    Also why is Volbeat in C, its kinda really good .-. Probably will go into more detail on that later, but yeah, way too low :[
  16. ooh_shiny

    ooh_shiny

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    I haven't really seen a write-up on Throh, so here's mine-

    Throh (open)

    Throh is possibly one of the most bulky attackers in PU with great defenses of 120/ 85/ 85. It's most notable (and only) set that's worth the use its Bulk Up set. Now, Circle Throw is a good move as it can phaze opponents out. It would be best to use entry hazards along with Throh as he can rack up some damage through phazing pokemon out. Defensively, Throh would be difficult to take out due to it boosting its stats through Bulk Up and having nice special defense. For example, Life Orb Golduck's Hydro Pump only 3HKOs it doing about 37-43% damage factoring in Leftovers. Throh can work as a sleep absorber due its combination of Guts and Sleep Talk. The biggest flaws for Throh is its bad speed and reliance on RestTalk for recovery. Circle Throw can also have underwhelming power since it comes at a measly 60 BP, plus it has negative priority of -6. Ghosts can give him problems too if one does not have Payback or Ice Punch on Throh.
  17. imdgreatest

    imdgreatest

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    Nominating wailord to move up to b-rank.
    wailord with a scarf is a godlike sweeper in this really slow metagame. His water spout really destroys anything that doesnt resist it.
  18. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    Using a Choice Scarf to abuse Water Spout thing it can really do. And although Water Spout can destroy stuff, Wailord still is pretty slow with a scarf, finding itself outsped by several other scarfers, mainly Rotom-F. Wailord is pretty powerful, but I'd say it deserves C-Rank at best.
  19. Edricky

    Edricky

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    @Beartic

    Perhaps my usage of Beartic was more specific than I thought it was; I've used it to beat Rain, used it on Rain, checking Fraxure (in rain), countering Meganium (whom I feel is a difficult threat in and of itself, though it is likely purely due to my teams), breaking physically weak thing, etc. etc.... (Also, in my original argument I meant checking Rain teams instead of countering them; I misused the term) But, my points do stand: It IS the only Ice-Type with Swift Swim in PU; it is the only one with priority, and although these are likely smaller niches they are important because it's priority becomes pseudo-STAB under Rain, and it's ability doubles speed under Rain - this, along with it's just-enough (IMO) movepool means it has two useful niches to go on, as well as the fact it isn't dead weight when rain isn't up. Honestly, I would prefer B-Rank, but I would actually be okay with C-Rank.

    (btw really the only reason I nominated it was to have it in a rank, really. B-Rank would just be my preference.)

    @Throh

    I'm not sure if this means anything, but I feel OK with that description.

    @Wailord

    I too think C-Rank fits Wailord better. While it is a strong attack, it is not ridiculously strong, and Wailord has only got OK defenses, so it can barely take a hit if it doesn't OHKO.

    Proedit: I've been testing out a few different 'mons, and I'd like to nominate Staryu for either C-Rank or B-Rank (B-Rank might be a tidbit too high): It's a VERY capable special tank-or-wall(whatever you want to call it...); it's bulk is above average, with 252HP/252SpDef giving it the capability to tank some really good hits;

    252SpAtk Cloud Nine Golduck (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Electric) vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Staryu (+SpDef): 35% - 42% (94 - 112 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Recover allows you to come in, Spin, and stall him until he switches. (Or crit, but meh...)

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (+SAtk) Blizzard vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Staryu (+SpDef): 36% - 42% (96 - 113 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Thunderbolt 2HKOs though... Hmm.

    I don't really know what other calcs to give you, but it's less bulky on the physical side.

    252Atk Machoke (+Atk) DynamicPunch vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Staryu (+Def): 39% - 46% (103 - 123 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Eviolite Machoke doesn't 2HKO, though, making it a check; on top of that, running something like Psychic typically will...

    4SpAtk Staryu (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Eviolite Machoke (Neutral): 27% - 32% (100 - 118 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    ...do OK damage. Okay, okay, bulky Staryu doesn't hit very hard; Offensive starmie doesn't either, though so don't try sweeping with it. BUT, I think it deserves at minimum C-Rank because of it's great utility and above average bulk.

    Also, I've been testing out Magnemite (sounds silly, I know) but it is actually capable with Defense EVs. Also, it resists BoltBlizz.

    252SpAtk Rotom (+SAtk) Blizzard vs 252HP/0SpDef Eviolite Magnemite (Neutral): 39% - 46% (100 - 118 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    This is Modest without SpDef investment. It can Paralyze, hit with neutral STAB, Slow Volt Switch out, or... well, that's it, but it also has other perks: for example, it can use Magic Coat to give the enemy their own hazards, Spores, etc., and it also can pivot from choiced or no-SE-Physical attackers; although it isn't capable of much else. I recommend it goes into D-Rank.

    I've been testing out these two for a while, on a number of different teams (I believe 3? 4? I think three.), but I would not turn down contradictory opinions.

    Proedit2:

    I also plan on looking at Tentacool, although it is already in C-Rank. It's iirc bulkier than Staryu, just with no offensive presence at all and no reliable recovery.
  20. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer Expect Amazing
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    I think that both Beartic and Wailord are C Rank Pokemon.

    While Ice typing is useful offensively, mono Ice typing is still absolute garbage defensively, leaving it weak to common Fire and Fighting type moves as well as giving it a nasty Stealth Rock weakness that hampers its survivability. In addition, its Base 50 Speed is atrocious, allowing its poor defensive typing to be easily taken advantage of. The idea that it can successfully check a Rain team is false, as outside of just being easy to wear down, it's still pretty slow even with Rain up (for example, still outsped by Rotom-F) and would thus have no way to beat opposing Swift Swimmers such as Golduck that are found on Rain teams. So yeah, seeing as its main niche is to be a physical Ice types with Swift Swim (doesn't even have the niche of being a physical Ice type since Sneasel is in the tier) and that isn't even a great niche when it works, C Rank is definitely appropriate.

    On the topic of Wailord, it suffers from many debilitating flaws as well. This metagame is by no means a slow one with offense being the primary team playstyle, so Wailord will often find itself being either flat-out outsped or just revenge killed, even with a Choice Scarf. In addition to this, any decently bulky resist such as Vileplume or Mantine can switch into a Water Spout and either set up or KO it outright. It also faces competition as an offensive Water type from other Pokemon such as Golduck, so it struggles to carve a niche even with Water Spout. For these reasons, Wailord is also a C Rank mon.
  21. Pokemasta77

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    I would like to vote Yanma for C-Rank. Yanma has decent attack but great speed and is also blessed with Speed Boost. Slap a Life Orb or Choice Specs and it does become relatively strong. Not to mention it can OHKO Beheeyem.
    Write Up B/C I Love Yanma
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    Just as expected, Yanma is a weaker version of Yanmega. Completely awful defenses but has base 75 special attack and 95 speed. Yanma is blessed to have the ability Speed Boost, an ability that just about every sweeper wishes it had. When given a Life Orb or Choice Specs, Yanma can decimate opponents as well as OHKO Beheeyem, a major threat in the PU tier. Not all is well for Yanma. Although it blessed with Speed Boost, it is also cursed with Bug/Flying typing. Rapid Spin support is absolutely necessary. Since that support is needed, Staryu is a great teammate to Yanma. Staryu can easily take Fire,Rock, and Ice type hits aimed at Yanma and can also spin rocks away that prevent Yanma from staying in to long. Another downfall to Yanma is that it is stuck with the same moves. It has to have Bug Buzz and Air Slash for STAB. For the other two slots, the only viable moves are Shadow Ball, Ancientpower, and Hidden Power. With the right support, Yanma is a great addition to any team but with some prediction, Yanma can be easily taken down.
  22. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Let's give it a try:
    [​IMG]

    Nozzle (open)

    Our beloved crab has some interesting things to use. First off, it has a fantastic base 130 Attack stat and an average base Speed of 70. Couple this with access to both Agility and Swords Dance and your opponent will be hard pressed to withstand Kingler's onslaught. With decent speed investment, it can outspeed Scarf Rotom-Frost after an Agility, which is very nice. It get's near perfect coverage with just Return and Crabhammer but can drop one boosting move for X-Scissor or Substitute making walling/revenging harder to do. But Kingler is by no means perfect. It has 55/115/50 defenses which means it has above average bulk on the physical side allowing it to set up on Pokémon like Klang. But it's special bulk is pathetic and it will fall to almost any special hit. It also has problems with bulky Grass types like Vileplume. All in all, Kingler has a hard time setting up, but when it does, it's one to fear.
  23. Pokemasta77

    Pokemasta77

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    I really like your write up but you are missing a few commas. Check the red.
  24. Menace13

    Menace13

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    I've been testing Yanma, too, and I agree with C-Rank. It has speed, two wonderful abilities, decent attack, and Hypnosis. Unfortunately, one hit kills it. Pretty much guaranteed. Which would be why I use a Focus Sash.
  25. Edricky

    Edricky

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    Argh, I've missed a number of points that you raise, and I'm certainly now inclined to believe it does indeed function better in C-Rank. I fully retract notions of exceptional niches, as it is outlined very well why they are not exceptional in your post. Thank you for clearing this up. (lol, for some reason I forgot Sneasel was an Ice-Type. I was using a team with it at the time of writing my earlier response, so that was certainly just me putting my foot in my mouth.)

    Also, my suggestion of Staryu I would like to solidify it at C-Rank only, but my points still stand to its effectiveness.

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