Project The PU Viability Ranking Thread

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trc

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#1
The PU Viability Ranking Thread
Welcome to XY's PU Viability Ranking thread. The basis of PU is that it is what would functionally be an official tier if there was one to exist below NU based on the current tiering process of using usage stats to determine the Pokemon present in a tier. The main discussion thread for the PU metagame can be found here, which can help provide a foundation of learning the tier, enhancing your proficiency in the various PU projects to participate in, this being the first, but with many more to come. Most of the discussion towards the PU metagame occurs in the IRC channel, #pu. Feel free to join this channel if you want to get involved with the community and learn a bit more about the metagame.

The general idea of this topic are as follows towards that of the official tiers. Seeing as PU is a tier where many Pokemon are viable and various Pokemon have more or less useful niches than others, we feel that it would be ideal to formulate a process of determining the rankings of Pokemon in descending order of sequence based on their overall viability of the metagame among their specific niches. From there, our dark task will be to deliver our attempts of gauging the metagame data and ensure accurate ratings to the best of our ability towards every viable Pokemon in the PU tier. From here on, this is the source where many of the players that are interested into playing this tier are giving many opportunities to analyze the metagame and ultimately "have their questions" answered in regards to how you should be managing your teams and what to expect for the competitive scene of PU.

On a side note, keep in mind that everything within their ranks are sorted into alphabetical order; a method in which its use is geared towards organizational purposes. This has no bearing as to what is better or worse if they happen to be listed into the same ranking.

After a certain amount of time, the council will address every nomination made in this thread by voting on them internally; the eventual verdict will be posted and the rankings updated. There may occasionally be focused discussion on certain Pokemon, but additional nominations are free to be made and discussed as well. For reference, the XY PU Council is:
  • WhiteDMist (Leader)
  • Dell (Co-Leader)
  • trc
  • Magnemite
  • Robert Alfons
  • galbia
  • scorpdestroyer
  • Montsegur
  • Anty

Tier Ranking List

S-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the PU metagame. These iconic figures are viewed as the top tier threats that bring the highest of examples of what causes them to define the shape of the metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively or can perform a certain role to phenomenal success with little to no support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits and are considered the foremost of the Pokemon that truly define the metagame.
  • Poliwrath
  • Tauros
A-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the PU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits. Their potential among most exceeds expectations among many areas, but there are minor flaws that prevents them from sharing the same consistency or metagame-defining nature towards that of a S-rank Pokemon.
A+
  • Carracosta
  • Leafeon
  • Misdreavus
  • Ninetales
  • Piloswine
  • Roselia
  • Scyther
  • Sneasel
  • Throh

A
  • Barbaracle
  • Bouffalant
  • Haunter
  • Kecleon
  • Lickilicky
  • Mr. Mime
  • Regice
  • Rotom-F
  • Tangela

A-
  • Aurorus
  • Avalugg
  • Chatot
  • Golem
  • Gourgeist-XL
  • Kadabra
  • Marowak
  • Pelipper
  • Raichu
  • Togetic

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who have solid niches in the PU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above them that affect how they function in the tier and how much more support would be required compared to higher-ranked Pokemon to push their use to success. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+
  • Beheeyem
  • Dodrio
  • Flareon
  • Gourgeist-S
  • Heatmor
  • Huntail
  • Purugly
  • Simipour
  • Stoutland
  • Swanna
  • Torterra
  • Victreebel

B
  • Articuno
  • Basculin
  • Carbink
  • Clefairy
  • Ditto
  • Drifblim
  • Fraxure
  • Frogadier
  • Hippopotas
  • Leavanny
  • Metang
  • Mightyena
  • Prinplup
  • Sawsbuck
  • Stunfisk
  • Swoobat
  • Ursaring
  • Volbeat
B-
  • Bastiodon
  • Duosion
  • Dusknoir
  • Electrode
  • Floatzel
  • Gogoat
  • Grumpig
  • Jumpluff
  • Kingler
  • Klang
  • Kricketune
  • Linoone
  • Luxray
  • Meowstic-M
  • Rampardos
  • Rapidash
  • Solrock
  • Vigoroth
  • Whirlipede

C-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the PU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C rank often require significant support to be effective in PU. C rank Pokemon typically tends to face a lot of competition with the Pokemon that are ranked higher.
C+
  • Arbok
  • Beartic
  • Electabuzz
  • Gabite
  • Girafarig
  • Golduck
  • Machoke
  • Monferno
  • Munchlax
  • Politoed
  • Quilladin
  • Relicanth
  • Seviper
  • Simisage
  • Simisear
  • Sliggoo
  • Vullaby
  • Wigglytuff
  • Zebstrika
  • Zweilous

C
  • Butterfree
  • Dusclops
  • Dragonair
  • Dwebble
  • Glaceon
  • Lapras
  • Murkrow
  • Raticate
  • Snover
  • Tropius
  • Vanilluxe
  • Wartortle
  • Whiscash
  • Wormadam-T

C-
  • Ariados
  • Bibarel
  • Furfrou
  • Hypno
  • Lairon
  • Lampent
  • Masquerain
  • Mothim
  • Natu
  • Octillery
  • Scraggy
  • Swalot
  • Wailord

D-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the PU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.
  • Carvanha
  • Delibird
  • Fearow
  • Frillish
  • Gigalith
  • Gourgeist
  • Gourgeist-Large
  • Illumise
  • Lumineon
  • Magcargo
  • Magmar
  • Meganium
  • Meowstic-F
  • Ninjask
  • Noctowl
  • Parasect
  • Persian
  • Pineco
  • Porygon
  • Shedinja
  • Shelgon
  • Stantler
  • Vibrava
  • Walrein
  • Yanma
E-Rank
Reserved for all other fully-evolved Pokemon that simply have no viable niches to match any of the rankings listed higher than this rank, therefore no place on a serious team.
  • Beautifly
  • Bellossom
  • Carnivine :pirate:
  • Castform
  • Cherrim
  • Chimecho
  • Corsola
  • Dedenne
  • Delcatty
  • Dewgong
  • Dunsparce
  • Dustox
  • Emolga
  • Farfetch'd
  • Furret
  • Ledian
  • Lunatone
  • Luvdisc
  • Maractus
  • Minun
  • Pachirisu
  • Phione
  • Plusle
  • Regigigas
  • Seaking
  • Slaking
  • Spinda
  • Sudowoodo
  • Sunflora
  • Unfezant
  • Unown
  • Vespiquen
  • Watchog
  • Wobbuffet
  • Wormadam
  • Wormadam-G
Rules:
  • Try to only suggest nominations for viable Pokemon only. There is no real reason to include the entire PU legality list when some things are simply too mediocre / incompetent to justify any use.
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated. This applies the same way for statements that doesn't back up any sufficient evidence.
  • Try to remain civilized with everyone at all costs. There is absolutely no reason to outright scold another user just because they happen to disagree with you.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!" Also, just because you realistically think a Pokemon is better that doesn't always apply within the case of the actual metagame.
  • No talk about editing the official Smogon tier lists or any mentions of Pokemon possibly moving out from PU to NU.
Happy posting!
 
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trc

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#2
The lower ranks are obviously going to be less sound than the higher ones; so if anything seems immediately out of place don't hesitate to post!
 

scorpdestroyer

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#3
Now that I've taken a good look at the viability rankings I'm going to suggest moving around a lot of stuff. I'll just focus on the ones I feel more strongly about and get to the rest another time, because there would be a lot otherwise :O fortunately most of these don't affect the A and S rankings.

Anyways TRC I think we should be a lot harsher with pushing stuff downwards. If you would never recommend something to a new player, just push it down to E instead of keeping it up there thanks to a minuscule niche

Bastiodon from B+ --> B. Bastiodon is good on stall but I think B+ is overselling it a little. Bastiodon is really passive and it has absolutely no place on most other teams. It can't hope to damage opponents outside of Toxic or Metal Burst, both of which are unreliable. Because its so passive, it's not too difficult to force out thanks to both of its 4x weaknesses and it slows down momentum for offensive teams too much. Because it's so limited I think B is a better place for it.

Zebstrika from B+ --> B. Zebstrika isn't that good. It faces a lot of competition from other Electric-types, and most of all it's really weak. 80 SpA is piss weak compared to other Pokemon even in PU and Zebstrika really can't hope to KO many things unless they're weakened. It's good, but at the same time it's weak enough to be over ranked at B+ (it's certainly worse than Raichu which is also B+ atm)

Simipour from C+ --> B. Simipour is probably one of the better Water-types in PU. It's one of the fastest, has a good boosting move, and has decent coverage. Not sure why it's considered C+ material, especially with Simisear chilling in B.

Pidgeot from C to E. What does this do, Defog faster than anything else?

Illumise from C- to E. This doesn't have any niche at all so long as Volbeat is in the tier. Tinted Lens is also done better by Mothim.

Clefairy from D+ to unlisted. Again, what does this do? Togetic is a better defensive Fairy while Wigglytuff does better at offensive Fairy. It's pretty passive, and I would even recommend Duosion over this as a Calm Mind user because it takes less boosts to get going. Unless someone justifies a good enough niche, I think it's better off unlisted.

Stantler from D+ to E. Outclassed by Bouffalant, Tauros, and Sawsbuck.

Unfezant from D+ to E. Unfezant doesn't really accomplish anything the other birds can't. Wish is pretty mediocre given that we have a couple of better ones anyway.

Corsola and Noctowl from D to E. Why would I use Corsola? Regenerator and Recover is hardly enough to make up for how frail and passive it is. Noctowl is also kinda terrible and outclassed.

Phione from D to E. What does this do that Golduck or Simipour can't?

Simisage from D to C+. Simisage isn't bad at all. It has access to good mixed stats allowing it to lure Pokemon such as Lickilicky and Bastiodon, as well as Endeavor if you want. Unfortunately it cannot beat the bulky Flying-types but neither can Pokemon like Serperior. It could actually deserve B- but C+ seems to fit it really well.

Plusle and Minun from D- to E. why use this over Raichu?

Pikachu from D- to unlisted. Why use this at all?

Regigigas from E to D. It isn't half as bad as it is made out to be. It can stall out Slow Start via parafusion and being really bulky such that it is difficult to immediately KO it (or break its subs for certain mons). It's not amazing, granted, but it's not that bad either.

I've got a few more but that's for another time! Of course this is mostly subjective and I may have been mistaken, so please feel free to disagree.
 
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trc

Stop Playing Wit The Game Y U Do Me This Way
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#4
Remember, all fully evolved Pokemon must have a rank, even if it is E Rank!

I assume you forgot about Phione!
 

Peef Rimgar

Other guys'll just feed ya lies! I'll take ya to MICKEY DS!
is a Pre-Contributor
#5
And now it's time to double my post count because if his thread lol.

I'm gonna try to steer away from the lower ranks (which I feel is good for viability rankings in general but whatever) and nominatenominate Basculin to B+/A-. This thing is a fucking monster against offense and forces switch like no other due to adaptability. The only thing thy even gets near taking it down (besideS unkillablr mushy ofc) is popuwrath and it doesn't like a superpower coming at it. This thin is atrociously underestimated and definitely better than trash like Arbok and Altaria
 
#6
Note to non-council members: most of the C+ to E ranks are heavy theorymon, since with just the few of us testing things we don't really have time to use random stuff like Wailord enough to give it a completely accurate rank. That said, agreeing with just about everything in scorpdestroyer's post (except for regigigas moving up since it's pretty much lucky n bad: the pokemon).

Also jsyk E rank is for fully evolved mons only; if an NFE would be E rank it just gets removed entirely, since we're not ranking all of them and E rank is for unviable mons only.
 
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#7
Proposing Pikachu rank for shit mons you shouldnt be using like Pikachu but are not fully evolved
Are there any that are actually getting significant usage though (I haven't been seeing any personally)? If not, I don't see the point. Perhaps when the PU usage stats come out if there are some useless NFEs in the top 100 it could be added, but I think everybody already knows stuff like Kirlia and Metapod aren't viable.
 
#8
Replies in bolded green

Now that I've taken a good look at the viability rankings I'm going to suggest moving around a lot of stuff. I'll just focus on the ones I feel more strongly about and get to the rest another time, because there would be a lot otherwise :O fortunately most of these don't affect the A and S rankings.

Anyways TRC I think we should be a lot harsher with pushing stuff downwards. If you would never recommend something to a new player, just push it down to E instead of keeping it up there thanks to a minuscule niche

Bastiodon from B+ --> B. Bastiodon is good on stall but I think B+ is overselling it a little. Bastiodon is really passive and it has absolutely no place on most other teams. It can't hope to damage opponents outside of Toxic or Metal Burst, both of which are unreliable. Because its so passive, it's not too difficult to force out thanks to both of its 4x weaknesses and it slows down momentum for offensive teams too much. Because it's so limited I think B is a better place for it. Agreed, especially about the passiveness compared to other stall essentials like Lickilicky and Gourgeist-XL.

Zebstrika from B+ --> B. Zebstrika isn't that good. It faces a lot of competition from other Electric-types, and most of all it's really weak. 80 SpA is piss weak compared to other Pokemon even in PU and Zebstrika really can't hope to KO many things unless they're weakened. It's good, but at the same time it's weak enough to be over ranked at B+ (it's certainly worse than Raichu which is also B+ atm) Agreed

Simipour from C+ --> B. Simipour is probably one of the better Water-types in PU. It's one of the fastest, has a good boosting move, and has decent coverage. Not sure why it's considered C+ material, especially with Simisear chilling in B. Guys, discuss more.

Pidgeot from C to E. What does this do, Defog faster than anything else? Idk, CB or offensive Defog? Much more likely to use it over most of the stuff in E/D- ranks, and it's not bad at the stuff per se. It's just not strong enough to fully utilize what it has. I'd say D at least but E if everyone agrees.

Illumise from C- to E. This doesn't have any niche at all so long as Volbeat is in the tier. Tinted Lens is also done better by Mothim. Definitely D rank. Just because it is outclassed by Volbeat doesn't mean that its niche is bad. It really only works as a weather setter, but if you try out both Volbeat and Illumise on a weather team, you really would not be able to tell the difference, except maybe in U-turn damage. Outclassed, but still solid at what it does so D is fine for it.

Clefairy from D+ to unlisted. Again, what does this do? Togetic is a better defensive Fairy while Wigglytuff does better at offensive Fairy. It's pretty passive, and I would even recommend Duosion over this as a Calm Mind user because it takes less boosts to get going. Unless someone justifies a good enough niche, I think it's better off unlisted. Agreed

Stantler from D+ to E. Outclassed by Bouffalant, Tauros, and Sawsbuck. It's pretty bad, though it does have Sucker Punch. Torn between D- and E rank.

Unfezant from D+ to E. Unfezant doesn't really accomplish anything the other birds can't. Wish is pretty mediocre given that we have a couple of better ones anyway. Agreed, doesn't even have Brave Bird.

Corsola and Noctowl from D to E. Why would I use Corsola? Regenerator and Recover is hardly enough to make up for how frail and passive it is. Noctowl is also kinda terrible and outclassed. No clue, Noctowl is slightly annoying sometimes I guess. Not against dropping

Phione from D to E. What does this do that Golduck or Simipour can't? Agreed

Simisage from D to C+. Simisage isn't bad at all. It has access to good mixed stats allowing it to lure Pokemon such as Lickilicky and Bastiodon, as well as Endeavor if you want. Unfortunately it cannot beat the bulky Flying-types but neither can Pokemon like Serperior. It could actually deserve B- but C+ seems to fit it really well. Discuss more

Plusle and Minun from D- to E. why use this over Raichu? Only reason is NastyPass, but they suck at it and we have Togetic and Volbeat for similar roles. Agreed

Pikachu from D- to unlisted. Why use this at all? It's not horribad, just a glass cannon. I think it might be worth staying unless there is a good reason to remove it.

Regigigas from E to D. It isn't half as bad as it is made out to be. It can stall out Slow Start via parafusion and being really bulky such that it is difficult to immediately KO it (or break its subs for certain mons). It's not amazing, granted, but it's not that bad either. I won't underestimate it, but D- is the highest I think it needs to be since it still means that you threw it on your team when you could easily use a Normal-type that has more immediate power AND still can use these annoyer moves.

I've got a few more but that's for another time! Of course this is mostly subjective and I may have been mistaken, so please feel free to disagree.
Poor Seaking
Anywho. I'm not that experienced in PU, but I've come to throw around a bit of things anyways. So, here we go.

I agree with Bastiodon dropping to B. Sure, it's Defences are superb, but it's offensive presence is pretty much non-existent. It has to rely on Metal Burst, which can be pretty bad if the opponent decides to start setting up. It's typing isn't too fabulous, either, being weak to way too many typings for its liking.

Mightyena: B ----> B+
Now, hear me out. Mightyena, on the surface, doesn't look like too much of a threat, which it's low attack stat and mediocre bulk, but after a single Moxie boost, this thing becomes the harbinger of doom. It's Attack stat goes through the roof, and with decent priority in the forum of Sucker Punch, slap a Life Orb on it and it hits like a truck. This Gen, it was also gifted Play Rough as a bit of type coverage against the Dragon and Fighting types. Intimidate is also an option for a little more bulk. I'd leave it in B. Sure, Moxie is great, bu it lacks the power to KO much unless it is revenge killing. The lack of initial power really hinders it.

Raticate: C+ -----> B-
I can't really think of anything to explain this thing. After a single turn of Flame Orb activation, this little rat can OHKO or 2HKO a pretty good portion of the meta game. With decent speed and a move pool larger than Texas, I'm surprised he isn't mentioned a lot more. Ursaring gives it a lot of competition as a status orb sweeper, since it has Quick Feet to be faster than Raticate, Swords Dance, better bulk, and Close Combat to break past Steel and Rock types. But I am not opposed to B-, it just needs more discussion.

Pidgeot: C -----> D
E is a bit of an overreaction to this, but yeah it kinda sucks. The only use it has is being fast. Dodrio fills the role of being a fast attacking bird much better. Sure Pidgeot can run a Specs set if it really wants to, but it's pretty bleak Special move pool has something to say about that. D then?

I hope this is enough. This is my first time really posting in a PU forum, but I'd love to get a little farther into this tier.
 
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wishes

lavender lamborghini
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#9

Cactus
Cacnea: Unlisted ---> D- Rank

Cacnea is my main really, it's just not used ever. It has decent attacking stats and can use Eviolite to have some bulk. It's slow as hell and fairly weak, one might wonder why you'd use it. Well, Swords Dance. Swords Dance transforms Cacnea and allows it to go to town on slower teams. +2 Drain Punch 2HKOes even Avalugg after Stealth Rock and Seed Bomb is a pain in the ass to switch into. The criticism I got from Peef for using this was: why use it over Meganium? Meganium outclasses itself when running Swords Dance - it has so much more to do, but Cacnea does not. Cacnea has the advantage of having a strong Sucker Punch, which sadly isn't STAB, but still strong. Cacnea is slow, not bulky at all, and really not that strong unboosted, but, I do think it deserves a rank as a very niche Swords Dance user.

Maractus: D- ---> D+

Why is Maractus in with shit like Minun and Pikachu? Unlike those two, Maractus carves itself a solid niche. Maractus is the only Spike setter with access to Knock Off as well, the only other Pokemon with this combination being Ferrothorn (who is irrelevant). Maractus has the ever useful Endeavor as well and Knock Off comes into play here to dissuade Ghost-types. Maractus can fire off some powerful Energy Balls as well if the opponent hits it with a Water-type move. This is another point I'd like to bring up: Immunity. Maractus has two ways to be immune to Water-type moves and both ways are beneficial. Overall, it's a really neat Pokemon that is definitely deserving of moving up.
 

EV

desu
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#10
I noticed a Gourgeist-S. Is that Small or Super?

The other two listed are blank and Large, which means one is still missing.
 
#12
According to the preliminary rankings, Gourgeist-XL was in A- and Gourgeist-S was in B+. TRC let's keep the formes abbreviated as Gourgeist-XL, Gourgeist-L, Gourgeist, and Gourgeist-S to avoid confusion.
 

Anty

it's cool to know nothing
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#13

Cactus
Cacnea: Unlisted ---> D- Rank

Cacnea is my main really, it's just not used ever. It has decent attacking stats and can use Eviolite to have some bulk. It's slow as hell and fairly weak, one might wonder why you'd use it. Well, Swords Dance. Swords Dance transforms Cacnea and allows it to go to town on slower teams. +2 Drain Punch 2HKOes even Avalugg after Stealth Rock and Seed Bomb is a pain in the ass to switch into. The criticism I got from Peef for using this was: why use it over Meganium? Meganium outclasses itself when running Swords Dance - it has so much more to do, but Cacnea does not. Cacnea has the advantage of having a strong Sucker Punch, which sadly isn't STAB, but still strong. Cacnea is slow, not bulky at all, and really not that strong unboosted, but, I do think it deserves a rank as a very niche Swords Dance user.

Maractus: D- ---> D+

Why is Maractus in with shit like Minun and Pikachu? Unlike those two, Maractus carves itself a solid niche. Maractus is the only Spike setter with access to Knock Off as well, the only other Pokemon with this combination being Ferrothorn (who is irrelevant). Maractus has the ever useful Endeavor as well and Knock Off comes into play here to dissuade Ghost-types. Maractus can fire off some powerful Energy Balls as well if the opponent hits it with a Water-type move. This is another point I'd like to bring up: Immunity. Maractus has two ways to be immune to Water-type moves and both ways are beneficial. Overall, it's a really neat Pokemon that is definitely deserving of moving up.
I don't think pokemon with that small a niche should get ranks. Sure maractus may have knock off + spikes, but that is not relevant to give it a rank, other than that roselia completely outclasses it as it has a better typing, bulk and has sleep powder. Other wise, grass types like simisage (who should go up) also get knock off, but has good speed and offensive presence. Lastly, glalie is a much better suicide spiker as it can out speed and taunt most suicide leads (esp kricket).

Cacnea also has no place here, what team will cacnea be the best choice for? Victreebel completely outclasses it as swords dance sweeper, who has good speed, sleep powder which lets it set up sword dances. Cacnea cant do that, it hit pitiful bulk even with eviolite and completely relies on a non stab sucker punch.

I just really disagree with having a d-rank (esp such a large one), as almost non of those pokes should be put on a team other. The ones who should, should be moved up:

Dusclops- This gets so much hate from bw uu players, yes its shitty and outclassed there, but here it has a niche. Its bulk is more reliable as there arent many strong attackers that can break it (sneasel and haunter) and mono ghost is a very good typing in pu right now, only having dark and ghost weaknesses is good as shown by mush. It also has a solid niche over pumpkin (other than superior bulk); its type. This allows it to check different pokes much more easily, tauros, mixed costa, scyther, chatot, serperior and flareon (these are just s/a rank pokes). I does have some flaws, such as lack of offensive presence and lack of solid recovery (gourg has lefties at least), but thats why i'm only suggesting it to C rank although i could see it higher. This thing doesn't get 2hko'd by sneasel :o

Simisage: something has been said. It has a nice mixed move pool + nasty plot and taunt or whatever. Agreeing with c+

Whirlipede: Spikes + endevour + speed boost allow it to become a niche enough lead spiker, should be at least c-

Otherwise i don't see many valuable d-ranks maybe mothim, natu or delibird. Seriously, who is using minun?


Other brief rank suggestions:

Solrock to c+: This thing is quite cool on stall as it is a solid answer to mixed tauros, bouff, chatot and more, it gets stealth rocks, recovery in mourning sun, ground immunity and will-o-wisp. It does have a niche on stall teams
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 95% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 265-315 (77 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< shows the balk


Swoobat to b+: Nice, effective late game sweeper. It isn't too hard to set up and once the opp's priority users are gone, it can easily sweep. Its main problems are mush + licky needs to be weakened.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 408-480 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 459-540 (158.2 - 186.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 372-438 (148.2 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tauros: 430-507 (147.7 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Altaria to b+/A-: Specs set is very strong and has rest. Also can run cool moves to threaten certain switch ins: eq for bastiodon, hp flying for throh. Specs restalria is a very underrated threat
252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 243-286 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Thats enough ranting for now. The only other suggestions i was thinking about making is purugly to b rank (easily predictable, looses to most defogers, cant sweep even with boost, marowak to a- (destroys stall and does well against balance) and lickilicky to a+ (very bulky poke with nice support options with an offensive presence). Also sorry for only a few calcs i had to rush this slightly

e: otherwise good job ^_^
 

trc

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#14
According to the preliminary rankings, Gourgeist-XL was in A- and Gourgeist-S was in B+. TRC let's keep the formes abbreviated as Gourgeist-XL, Gourgeist-L, Gourgeist, and Gourgeist-S to avoid confusion.
The copy of the preliminary rankings I have had Gourgiest-S in A- and B+, I just assumed that was a mistake and removed the lower ranked one. Fixing.
 
#15
I don't think pokemon with that small a niche should get ranks. Sure maractus may have knock off + spikes, but that is not relevant to give it a rank, other than that roselia completely outclasses it as it has a better typing, bulk and has sleep powder. Other wise, grass types like simisage (who should go up) also get knock off, but has good speed and offensive presence. Lastly, glalie is a much better suicide spiker as it can out speed and taunt most suicide leads (esp kricket).

Cacnea also has no place here, what team will cacnea be the best choice for? Victreebel completely outclasses it as swords dance sweeper, who has good speed, sleep powder which lets it set up sword dances. Cacnea cant do that, it hit pitiful bulk even with eviolite and completely relies on a non stab sucker punch.

I just really disagree with having a d-rank (esp such a large one), as almost non of those pokes should be put on a team other. The ones who should, should be moved up:

Dusclops- This gets so much hate from bw uu players, yes its shitty and outclassed there, but here it has a niche. Its bulk is more reliable as there arent many strong attackers that can break it (sneasel and haunter) and mono ghost is a very good typing in pu right now, only having dark and ghost weaknesses is good as shown by mush. It also has a solid niche over pumpkin (other than superior bulk); its type. This allows it to check different pokes much more easily, tauros, mixed costa, scyther, chatot, serperior and flareon (these are just s/a rank pokes). I does have some flaws, such as lack of offensive presence and lack of solid recovery (gourg has lefties at least), but thats why i'm only suggesting it to C rank although i could see it higher. This thing doesn't get 2hko'd by sneasel :o

Simisage: something has been said. It has a nice mixed move pool + nasty plot and taunt or whatever. Agreeing with c+

Whirlipede: Spikes + endevour + speed boost allow it to become a niche enough lead spiker, should be at least c-

Otherwise i don't see many valuable d-ranks maybe mothim, natu or delibird. Seriously, who is using minun?


Other brief rank suggestions:

Solrock to c+: This thing is quite cool on stall as it is a solid answer to mixed tauros, bouff, chatot and more, it gets stealth rocks, recovery in mourning sun, ground immunity and will-o-wisp. It does have a niche on stall teams
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 95% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 265-315 (77 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< shows the balk


Swoobat to b+: Nice, effective late game sweeper. It isn't too hard to set up and once the opp's priority users are gone, it can easily sweep. Its main problems are mush + licky needs to be weakened.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 408-480 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 459-540 (158.2 - 186.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 372-438 (148.2 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tauros: 430-507 (147.7 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Altaria to b+/A-: Specs set is very strong and has rest. Also can run cool moves to threaten certain switch ins: eq for bastiodon, hp flying for throh. Specs restalria is a very underrated threat
252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 243-286 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Thats enough ranting for now. The only other suggestions i was thinking about making is purugly to b rank (easily predictable, looses to most defogers, cant sweep even with boost, marowak to a- (destroys stall and does well against balance) and lickilicky to a+ (very bulky poke with nice support options with an offensive presence). Also sorry for only a few calcs i had to rush this slightly

e: otherwise good job ^_^
I haven't used Swoobat or seen it much, but B+ seems a bit high for it. The 2 best Pokemon in the tier in Sneasel and Musharna are the bane of its existence (Sneasel has a bit of trouble switching in but it easily revenge kills, while Musharna has no trouble at all switching and can just cripple it with thunder wave). Stall is amazing in this metagame and has no trouble with it, while its Stealth Rock weakness and awful bulk make it exceedingly difficult for it to set up against offense. Furthermore, its lack of Psychic-type STAB before setting up if you run Stored Power makes it a bit deadweight in some matches. Overall, it's not as bad as I'm making it seem but B+ is a bit too high for it tbh.

Also move mantine down to B all the other B+ mons are better than it kthx
 
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#16
scorpdestroyer said:
Clefairy from D+ to unlisted. Again, what does this do? Togetic is a better defensive Fairy while Wigglytuff does better at offensive Fairy. It's pretty passive, and I would even recommend Duosion over this as a Calm Mind user because it takes less boosts to get going. Unless someone justifies a good enough niche, I think it's better off unlisted.
Clefable has a nice niche that seperates it from Togetic in terms of acting as a physical wall. For one, it can check lots of top-tier physical threats that Togetic cannot due to its additional Flying type such as Sneasel, Carracosta, Poliwrath, Purugly etc. It also has a phenomenal ability that Togetic can only dream of having by the name of Magic Guard. Being completely immune to hazards and status is very important for a wall, as you all may know. Lastly, it has a great movepool filled to the brim with status and offensive moves such as Stealth Rock, 3 forms of reliable recovery, Thunder Wave and Toxic for status and then tons of coverage like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Moonblast, Flamethrower etc. It's completely outclassed as a CM-er imo unfortunately by mons such as Mr. Mime, Meowstic, Duosion and Beheeyem because of it's frailty when not invested in its defenses and its weak 45 Sp.Atk.

Calcs vs 252/252+ Clefable
252 Atk Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 106-126 (30.8 - 36.6%)
+2 252 Atk Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 211-249 (61.3 - 72.3%)

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 61-73 (17.7 - 21.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 61-73 (17.7 - 21.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 142-169 (41.2 - 49.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 95-113 (27.6 - 32.8%)

252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 118-140 (34.3 - 40.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 47-56 (13.6 - 16.2%)

252+ Atk Poliwrath Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 80-94 (23.2 - 27.3%)
252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 85-102 (24.7 - 29.6%)
 
#17
Glad to see this thread is finally up and running.

Also, I fully support Simipour being raised to B

This is literally the best Offensive Water type PU has to offer. It gets Nasty Plot and great moves a Water type Pokemon can ask for such as Hydro Pump Ice Beam and Grass Knot which gives it literally some of the best coverage. It is one of the fastest Pokemon in PU and with Life Orb, +2 and Life Orb Hyro Pump is putting huge dents into teams.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 286-337 (67.4 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's pretty big damage right there.
 
#18
I'm not that experienced with PU (or even NU for that matter). I just came here because I thought the concept of a PU tier is pretty hilarious. But here's my opinion anyway:

Dunsparce to C+.

I feel as though people underestimate Dunsparce. Dunsparce can wreck house if players come unprepared. Now that Glare has 100% accuracy, his role as a paraflincher is astounding. His HP stat is pretty solid and he gets access to multiple flinching moves such as STAB Headbutt, Rock Slide, and Bite (although bite might not be the best move to use.) Add that to the fact that with a King's Rock, his paraflinching chances are now 85% (if I calculated correctly), then he could cause some major rage. Add THAT to the fact that he has access to viable recovery by Roosting, you have one aggravating snake-thing.

However, he's not perfect. He could be easily killed by Poliwrath due to his horrible speed and blocked by any Throh with Limber.

All-in-all, he's a descent Pokemon whose sole purpose is to cause rage who I think deserves more than D+
 

EV

desu
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#20
Why is Vullaby B? I've never seen one on the ladder
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!" Also, just because you realistically think a Pokemon is better that doesn't always apply within the case of the actual metagame.
 
#21
Pikachu from D- to unlisted. Why use this at all?
The vast majority of what you said is actually very sound in terms of logic, however Light Ball makes Pikachu a serious threat as it has access to E-speed to help mitigate its speed, Nasty Plot, Volt Switch and whole other manner of other moves to warrant its use as a glass cannon. You literally have to use Light Ball, but that doesn't mean its useless.
 
#22
Cool to see PU being handled so seriously.

I do have some things I want to see adjust in the tier though;)

Throh from B+ to A (+), this mon is never ever going down in one hit. The bulk is immense and with it's movepool it hits everything in the tier for good damage from a reasonable attack, especially compared to other mons in the tier. With just a phazing move in circle throh and knock off it hits everything and it is incredibly annoying to face. Because of guts it can't get taken down by status easily since you will have to face it while its attacks are pretty damn powerful. Paired up with hazards this mon will just grand you the win in many many cases. With it's few weaknesses it can often stay in and shuffle the team around until a threat appears. But by having a shuffled and weakened team a teammate might be able to clean up. Also Throh will be able to shuffle the team later on in the battle again most likely. It can get recovery by having rest talk, which is in general not the greatest option, but works out very well for throh since status will only boost it's attack and will only hinder it in getting taken down. Also the AV set is popular for it's unmatched bulk. If you have ever faced a throh you are probly scarred for life, so this mon definately deserves A rank, if not A+.

Gigalith from C+ to B, Gigalith is the bulk itself, even it's weaker special side isn't half as bad as people give it credit for. With explosion or just the general stabs this mon hits like a truck before dying. This mon is rock solid (pun intented) for setting up hazards and trucking through teams with it's high attack and defensive stats. Many situations lead to people having to use 2 or often actually 3 mons to finally take gigalith down because of it's crazy bulk.

Simipour from C+ to A(-), Of all three monkeys this one is the most threathening, since it's sp att isn't lowered with hydro pump unlike it's siblings. The mixed set wrecks through stall teams aswell. In general this monkey outspeeds a good portion of the tier and hits back with a surprisingly high damage output. Also setting up with this mon, being subs or nasty plots isn't too difficult. Facing this mon when having statboost or being behind a sub means you'll lose valuable mons. It great speed makes it perfect to face stall since it's coverage is fantastic and it makes good use out of substitute or taunt.

Quilladin from C to B-, Quilladin is a very very bulky grass type and a very reliable spike stacker. Arguably outclassed by Garbodor doesn't justify it's C rank as it's definately capable of having the B- rank together with the mons that are put in that bracket now. Another spike stacker is roselia, which is imo outclassed by this tank. But with garbodor and roselia that high up it shows how big t spikes are in this tier.

Walrein from C- to C+, Walrein is incredibly bulky and soaks up hits for days. With a few weaknesses it won't make it out of the C class, but it's most definately one of the best C ranks in there. The speed is actually pretty good for its bulk and it stabs hit a really good portion of the tier, except for water types that get outstalled with ease as they hit nothing back in many cases.

Scraggy from C- to B-, You'd laugh if I tell you how easy it is to sweep with scraggy, well I'm not joking. It does on thing and on thing only, but it does it like a beast. It has great bulk on the special side when invested and can boost it's physical bulk reliably. Status and damage can easily get rested off. The cycle will just continue until it attacks with it stabs. Knock off and drain punch not only hit everything for good damage, but both have a great side effect. Knock off removing the item of your opponent and drain punch keeps you alive for a sweep. It's only weakness is fairy types, which are lacking in the tier. Even with those around scraggy should recieve B- rank imo.

I leave it at this for now, although some B+ mons like mantine/pelipper/torterra/misdreavus and bastiodon are actually very reliable and might be viable for a possible A- rank.

I hope my response was helpful and I want to mention again that I'm glad that PU is so well recieved by everyone:)

~Call me 911
 
#23
A view ratings in the depths of this threat I disagree with are:
Dusclops from D+ to C, This bulkfest cripples every team, regardless of knock off. I almost feel that it's a joke giving it a D+ rating.

Gourgeist from E- to B, Although outclassed in speed by it's smaller form and in bulk by it's larger form this on is definately very viable in the tier. Defensively it's a nice mix between the two mons that works really well. 84 speed is really high for a wall in pu and 90 attack is nothing to mess with. Actually this mon looks to be great offensively aswell. And it is, with seed bomb, shadow sneak and rock slide I really feel that an offensive variant is underrated. It's general bulk makes it survives knock offs so even that is considered when talking about this mon. In its last moveslot it can carry a crippling will o wisp or an unexpected destiny bond to screw with teams and open up wholes for your team. This mon shines really well under a sticky web team. Obviously flying types block it but thats why you have a team. I really really urge you to change this rating as I feel that it's huuugely underappreciated by labeling it E-.

Tropius from C- to C+, This mon is really good defensively and a crippling ice weakness shouldn't make it drop down to C- imo. With harvest, sub, leech seed etc it's almost unthinkable that this mon has such a low rating. It's defences are really high on both sides of the spectrum aswell. It's definately comparable to exegutor in NU, with it having a crippling weakness to bug, so I really feel that this mon deserves higher then its current rating. Arguably you could go for an offensive set with Dragon dance as it has eq and a grass stab to hit pretty hard. In general though, the defensive set recieves more then just a C- :)

~Call me 911
 
#24
Last but not least

Vibrava from Unlisted to C, it's typing is really good for a defensive mon and its bulk might surprise you aswell! With it having access to defog and U-turn it becomse a great pivot and often fits on any team to keep the offensive pressure up. Compare it to a u-turn gligar in RU. It's typing makes it resisiting or immune to many types of attacks which makes it a very viable mon in PU.
 
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